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Author Topic: Do Romans and Orthodox wish Eastern Catholics didn't exist?  (Read 16586 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2002, 11:55:56 PM »

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It will be interesting to hear the answer to this.

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Then why doesn't the canon code say that? It seems if Orthodox could theoretically receive except ex-RC Catholics, it would say so, no? God Bless!
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2002, 12:01:46 AM »

As I understand, Catholics becoming Orthodox become schismatic according to Catholicism (becoming Protestant is heresy, becoming a non-Christian is apostasy) and so such can't go to Communion (not that they'd want to anyway - it's pretty theoretical). I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2002, 12:29:11 AM »

I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.

But it also doesn't make sense. I mean, to say it cool for Jane and John to be Orthodox, but not Serge. I mean either Orthodoxy is good and the Church with valid sacraments to the RC or its not. That's the way I see it anyway. God Bless!
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2002, 12:36:41 AM »

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Quote
Quote from: Hypo-Ortho


[/quote

Not to make a big deal out of it, Samer, but is the "Bishop Eliyah" to whom you make reference the same as "Archbishop John A. Elya" of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Newton?  I had Archbishop Elya (then "Archimandrite John Elya") as my instructor in Melkite Church History at the (now-closed, I believe) Melkite Eparchial Seminary of St. Gregory the Theologian in Newton Centre, MA, where I was studying for the diaconate for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Passaic.  The then Fr. Elya said of the Melkites: "We were ALWAYS Catholic," i.e., in communion with Rome.  He also denied the existence of "monsignori" in the Melkite Church.  (I had much more respect for the honesty of Archbishop Joseph Tawil of blessed memory, who was another one of my instructors.)

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      Did you ever know the beloved Archbishop Joseph (Raya)??  I have never  known a better Eastern Christian HIerarch.  He is
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2002, 01:29:45 AM »

As I understand, Catholics becoming Orthodox become schismatic according to Catholicism (becoming Protestant is heresy, becoming a non-Christian is apostasy) and so such can't go to Communion (not that they'd want to anyway - it's pretty theoretical). I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.

But Serge, as we discussed this on Byzcath several years ago, no such distinction explicitly exists in Eastern canon law--and in the Catholic canon law, something HAS to be explicit to be a law.  I also don't recall it saying explicitly that Eastern Catholics going Orthodox are schismatics, either, where in Latin Canon law it does--a pastoral concession to reality?

I know of several cases where ex-Catholic Orthodox went back to communion in a Catholic Church, no problem (and not just in my parish! ;-)

Your belief may "make sense" but really it is all based on opinions that do not have an explicit canonical basis.

In Christ,

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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2002, 08:06:11 AM »

Emmaus,

"Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?"

**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**

Dan Lauffer Kiss

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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2002, 08:48:48 AM »

Having been quite the aspiring canonist back in the day, I pulled out my copy of the Code of Canon Law for the Western Churches.

It says:

Can. 1364 -º1 An apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provision of Can. 194 -º1, n. 2; a cleric, moreover, may be punished with the penalties mentioned in Can. 1336 -º1, nn. 1, 2 and 3.


Now, like civil law, canon law has it's conservatives and liberals, and cross referencing this particular reference to a purple book I have on canon law, (I can't remember the name), this particiular canon extends to anyone who leaves the Church of Rome. Orthodox or Protestant. At the time of the writing in 1983, Orthodox were still considered 'schismatic'.

However, as i can remember, recent proclaimations exist, namely by John Paul II, that all excommunications of Orthodox have been rendered null, but I'm not sure if they exist on people who leave their existing faith under Rome, and become Orthodox.


Bobby


PS Since Catholics dogmatize papal infallbility, and since not belieivng in a dogma constitutes heresy, one would be considered a heretic since he rejects the dogma which he is held under as a Catholic. This would satisfy the demands of the canon, as becoming Orthodox, you would of course reject that canon

PSSS

Ok I pulled out my eastern code of canon law. In it it says :

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.
2. In addition to these cases, whoever obstinately rejects a teaching that the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising the authentic magisterium, have set forth to be held definitively, or who affirms what they have condemned as erroneous, and does not retract after having been legitimately warned is to be punished with excommunication.
Can. 1437 A  person who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church or communion with the Christian faithful subject to it, and does not obey is punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication.

It seems these are directed towards people who leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2002, 09:01:58 AM »

Maybe the loophole (omission) is in the 'Eastern' code to reflect the reality of the Middle East where people go back and forth all the time w/o intending to switch allegiances - not REAL ex-Catholics.
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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2002, 09:05:42 AM »

On the contrary Serge, the Eastern Code is more descript on the issue than the western code, as stated in the above post.

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« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2002, 09:21:45 AM »

Lets see if I have this right:
So socalled ex-Catholics as well as many Byzantine Catholics who reject the canons on Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and the like are still (technically) concidered heretics/apostates.  The only difference is that, if you are in union with Rome, these unbeliefs become uninportant.  So, everything hinges on union with Rome. That is the key? Huh

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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2002, 09:30:34 AM »

Joe,

I'm no expert in canon law, but the words in themselves can't lie.

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.

Unfortunately no scholarly commentary exists on the eastern code of canon law, but from the above passage, I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.


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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2002, 09:36:15 AM »

Bobby,

Thank you for that clarification.

In Christ,

JoeS

Joe,

I'm no expert in canon law, but the words in themselves can't lie.

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.

Unfortunately no scholarly commentary exists on the eastern code of canon law, but from the above passage, I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.


Bobby
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2002, 10:29:45 AM »

[ I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.]

Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.  
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'I Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2002, 10:30:40 AM »

Emmaus,

"Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?"

**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**

Dan Lauffer Kiss


Dan,

By separating themselves from their mother churches, Eastern Catholics haven't healed schisms but have only created more.

"In the name of unity.... schism," isn't a very good commentary on John 17!

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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2002, 10:44:06 AM »

[ I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.]

Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.  
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'I Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Orthodoc



Orthodoc,

Yes, it would seem this way. From the perspective of canon law, it would seem that being a Catholic means accepting the whole package, regardless of what "sui iuris" church you belong to.

Can. 1437 A  person who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church or communion with the Christian faithful subject to it, and does not obey is punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication

Now here in canon 1437, it is unclear whether Supreme Authority refers to the Pope. Anyone want to comment? If that was the case, communion with the Pope of Rome is required, else one is considered schismatic.

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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2002, 10:48:36 AM »

Quote
So socalled ex-Catholics as well as many Byzantine Catholics who reject the canons on Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and the like are still (technically) concidered heretics/apostates.


Objectively yes, but apostasy means converting to a non-Christian religion, which isn't the case here.

Quote
The only difference is that, if you are in union with Rome, these unbeliefs become uninportant.  So, everything hinges on union with Rome. That is the key?

Patriarch L'ubomyr sure made it sound that way!

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.

Quote
Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.
 

Yes. As I wrote here, to Catholics, such people are dissenters.

Quote
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'In Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

True.

Quote
By separating themselves from their mother churches, Eastern Catholics haven't healed schisms but have only created more.

The near consensus among orthodox yet ecumenically minded Catholics and Orthodox is just that: exacerbating the big split and creating a further schism among Easterns by setting up the Eastern Catholic churches was a mistake. But the same experts say the present-day Eastern Catholics have a right to choose to be who they are. So this admission isn't the same as saying, 'We wish the Eastern Catholics didn't exist'.
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2002, 10:58:32 AM »

[**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**]

Your comment makes no sense to me.  Are you saying that the only ones that remain faithful to Christ are the Eastern Catholics because of what is written in John 17:21?

John 17:21:  "that they all may be one as You Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Once again, you are using the Protestant concept of selective quoting.  

Are the Eastern Catholics being faithful to the teachings of  Scripture when claim to accept Orthodox theology while recognizing as their earthy head a bishop who proclaims, protects, and upholds a different theology?  What about  I Corinthians 1:10 Dan -

I Corinthians 1:10:  [Caps are mine to emphasize)  Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and that there be no divisions among you, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGEMENT.

ORTHODOC



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« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2002, 11:22:49 AM »

[Objectively yes, but apostasy means converting to a non-Christian religion, which isn't the case here.]

No it doesn't Serge.  From 'The Complete Book Of Orthodoxy' -

Apostasy (Gk. for "turning away") - Used to describe Christians who reject 1 Timothy 1:5-7.  IT IS ALSO USED TO DESCRIBE THOSE BAPTISED AND CHRISMATED, WHO HAVE ABANDONED THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH, FOR ANOTHER CHURCH OR SECT.  The neglect of one's faith, even though complete, is not Apostasy.  It is also a highly legaized term used in the Roman Church to iclude any act which separates one from the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff.

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« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2002, 11:27:27 AM »

And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

JoeS

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.

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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2002, 11:36:42 AM »

My last para should have been in quotes.

And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

JoeS

""And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.""


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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2002, 11:48:07 AM »

Some  gleamings from the Eastern Code of Canon Law that I found "cute":

Canon 671 Section 1
Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to the Catholic Christian faithful, who likewise receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.

Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Canon 333
Mandates that all priests celebrate Divine Liturgy daily if possible.

Will post more later.

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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2002, 11:55:11 AM »

No it doesn't Serge.  From 'The Complete Book Of Orthodoxy' -

Apostasy (Gk. for "turning away") - Used to describe Christians who reject 1 Timothy 1:5-7.  IT IS ALSO USED TO DESCRIBE THOSE BAPTISED AND CHRISMATED, WHO HAVE ABANDONED THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH, FOR ANOTHER CHURCH OR SECT.  The neglect of one's faith, even though complete, is not Apostasy.  It is also a highly legaized term used in the Roman Church to iclude any act which separates one from the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff.

Orthodoc


I have always believed the following definition to be that of "apostasy":

apostasy
A*pos"ta*sy, n.; pl. Apostasies. [OE. apostasie, F. apostasie, L. apostasia, fr. Gr. ? a standing off from, a defection, fr. ? to stand off, revolt; ? from + ? to stand. See Off and Stand.] An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, -¬ 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


Note the word total, as well as the reference to Julian the Apostate.  

But we descend into the ridiculous word games again.  We must remember that we don't speak Greek or Latin or Slavonic every day, but English.  We should use her words as they are generally defined.

I'll shut up now.
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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2002, 12:11:30 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: bripat22
[/quote

Did you ever know the beloved Archbishop Joseph (Raya)??  I have never  known a better Eastern Christian HIerarch.  He is
 one of the greatest influences in drawing me to Orthodoxy.  I will never forget him giving the homily at my Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic parish in San Diego.  He exuded the holiness and ethos of the Eastern Church!!


No, Brian, I never did meet Archbishop Raya.  I think he was living at Madonna House in Combomere, Canada, at the time.  However, I was required to acquire my own copy of "Byzantine Daily Worship" which he co-authored with Baron Jose de Vinck, and I still sometimes use it to locate daily Troparia and Kontakia.  I happened to notice that even my OCA parish church owns a copy for use in the choir (Must be that three-bar cross on the cover!)!

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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2002, 12:14:04 PM »

Quote
And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

Not confusing at all! The Catholic Church claims authority over its subjects, including those who quit - just like the Orthodox communion claims jurisdiction over its people and excommunicates people who quit. Fair's fair.

Quote
Canon 671 Section 1
Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to the Catholic Christian faithful, who likewise receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.

Isn't there something like in Latin canon law that says (implicit: never-Catholic) Orthodox and other Easterns can receive too?

Quote
Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 333
Mandates that all priests celebrate Divine Liturgy daily if possible.

Not heretical but not Eastern either — gives it away as a document written by Romans for Eastern subjects.

You know, most born Orthodox don't care either way about this stuff - it's as irrelevant as the doings of the United Methodist Church.

Maybe this board, including me, really is 'Eastern Catholics and the Catholic-minded (and non-Catholics preoccupied for some reason with the Catholic Church) who also like Eastern Orthodoxy'. Not a judgement, just an observation.

Maybe it's because we're all Westerners — including our born Orthodox, and including those of us of non-Western heritage born in North America. In our homelands — the US, Canada, the UK — Catholic is THE big Church. Not so in places like Greece and Russia.

I'm really not offended when people think I'm Catholic. What's a personal insult is when someone hates me so much for whatever reason he or she denies me any standing as Eastern. I've been following this stuff for 15+ years and doing it for 10, and deserve some credit for that, even if one doesn't like me personally or doesn't like my views. Romans can be fine folks, but don't call me one. This isn't directed at anyone here specificallly but is an observation/complaint about some of the treatment I've got online, particularly over the past year.
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2002, 12:30:46 PM »

Quote
Maybe it's because we're all Westerners - including our born Orthodox, and including those of us of non-Western heritage born in North America. In our homelands - the US, Canada, the UK - Catholic is THE big Church. Not so in places like Greece and Russia

Serge, I couldn't agree more. Whether we like it or not, we are all infused with the western mindset. Instead of rejecting it as entirely evil, as some converts to Orthodoxy attempt to do, (stepping out on a limb here) I think we need to accomodate it, as it is a part of our American culture. Inheritantly, it has many problems and shortcomings, but in the end I think it will work out. That's why I can see the OCA really being the future of Orthodoxy in America.

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« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2002, 12:33:43 PM »

Bobby,

Thanks! And agreed: the OCA is the way of the future for American Orthodoxy.

Quote
rejecting it as entirely evil, as some converts to Orthodoxy attempt to do

IMO that's mentally and spiritually unhealthy and causes some of the convert neuroses displayed online. And also why sometimes Orthodox online come across as so arrogant, claiming exclusive rights to some spiritual truth that, if you take away the Greek or Russian name of the author of the quote being trotted out, is really no different to what Sister Mary Thomasina was teaching back in the 1950s.
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« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2002, 12:37:07 PM »

Quote
Quote
Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Makes sense.
>>

During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

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« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2002, 12:39:51 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Please close your quotations with the appropriate code: /quote enclosed by [ ].

Quote
During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

That didn't reflect what Catholicism teaches, then or now, and that priest deserved to be, and should have been, suspended.

Quote
And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

That's a gray area. I assume each bishop confirmed his own people so technically there might not have been anything wrong with it, but it sounds awfully confusing and would lead the simple faithful to think the two churches are really the same.
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« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2002, 12:44:35 PM »

[Patriarch L'ubomyr sure made it sound that way!

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.]

There is no such thing as a never Catholic Orthodox Serge.  Now who is using the word game?

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« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2002, 12:45:12 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Please close your quotations with the appropriate code: /quote enclosed by [ ].

Hypo-Ortho<<I tried, Serge, I tried!  I'm just not savvy enough to get it right!>>

Quote
During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

Serge<<That didn't reflect what Catholicism teaches, then or now, and that priest deserved to be, and should have been, suspended.>>

Hypo-Ortho<<This is true, Serge.  But with the most ecumenically-minded RC bishop in the USA in charge at the time, he was only mildly reprimanded.  That didn't quite get to the papers.>>

Quote
And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

That's a gray area. I assume each bishop confirmed his own people so technically there might not have been anything wrong with it, but it sounds awfully confusing and would lead the simple faithful to think the two churches are really the same.

Yes, you're right.  The service took place in a RC church with each bishop confirming his own subjects.  The RC altar had actually been removed from the church for the service!!!

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2002, 12:48:48 PM »

Mr Tallick, you prove my point with your obsession with and envy of the capitalized word Catholic. None of the Russians I know share this preoccupation. We've defined for the purposes of this board what is meant by it (specifically, the administrators approved my suggestion of sticking to the common English meaning of the word) so do please stop wasting our time and bandwidth playing this game.
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« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2002, 01:27:42 PM »

[Mr Tallick, you prove my point with your obsession with and envy of the capitalized word Catholic. None of the Russians I know share this preoccupation. ]

Serge:  Can you, or any of the administrators, show me where the terminology NEVER Catholic Orthodox was approved?  
The title of this folder is Orthodox - Catholic (In Communion with Rome).  It is not Orthodox-Catholic.

It is still beyond my comprehension why anyone who professes loyality to the church of Rome and the Pope would have any problem being identified as Roman Catholic, Papal Catholic, or Catholic in Communion with Rome.  And come into an supposedly Orthodox Catholic website and demand exclusive rights to the word Catholic.

Thats all I have to say.  For I will continue to defend my Orthodox Catholic faith and its right to be identified as what it is - both Catholic and Apostolic.

What you insist on labeling obsession and envy is theological fact and truth.

Your starting to use the terminology Never Catholic Orthodox is a ploy to antagonize.

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« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2002, 02:00:10 PM »

I thought the administrators agreed that capitalized Catholic has its plain English meaning here.

Never-Catholic Orthodox isn't an insult; it's a fact unless last night the Orthodox communion submitted to the Pope and I haven't read about it yet.

Never-catholic Orthodox would be an insult.

Again, I don't understand this obsession with the word in capitalized form. To Russians, a -¦-¦-é-+-+-+-¦ is a non-Orthodox, a foreigner, often a Pole. I maintain it seems to be envy here.

Quote
It is still beyond my comprehension why anyone who professes loyality to the church of Rome and the Pope would have any problem being identified as Roman Catholic, Papal Catholic, or Catholic in Communion with Rome.

Or Eastern Catholic, or Byzantine Catholic, or just plain Catholic. I agree this is puzzling.
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« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2002, 02:02:03 PM »

Friends,

Just for clarification, in the Eastern Catholic Churches an excommunication must be imposed by one's hierarch except in the case of desecrating the Holy Gifts or raping a nun. So if an Eastern Catholic would publicly state he does not hold to article X of the Catholic faith technically his hierarch could excommunicate him but unless or until the hierarch does he is a member in good standing.  Of course some Ultramontane's would say by denying article X you become a heretic and therefore are excommunicated, but Ultramontane wishes do not make it so.

In Christ,
Lance
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« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2002, 02:04:12 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded; culturally Anglo-Saxon American; and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


rtss Cry
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« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2002, 02:14:18 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded, culturally Anglo-Saxon American, and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


rtss Cry

Huh?  Whadidja just say to Serge?  And the majority of the members of this online community, rtss?  I'm half-Polish/half-Ukie and first-generation American on my mother's side.  My wife was born in L'viv.  I'm Ukrainian/Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic-turned-Orthodox--out of sincere conviction rather than continuing to be painfully afflicted with spiritual schizophrenia by being in the middle, neither fully one or the other--some 25 years ago at least.  Doesn't any of this count?

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« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2002, 02:19:25 PM »

My, aren't we a bit testy?  He did say "majority" and not all, and I don't think his comment was pointed at you in the least, Hypo.  Calm down a bit, please.  In fact, everyone calm down.  Bickering over semantics and ethnicity is just plain ridiculous over the Internet and in a Christian forum.
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« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2002, 02:22:53 PM »

My, aren't we a bit testy?  He did say "majority" and not all, and I don't think his comment was pointed at you in the least, Hypo.  Calm down a bit, please.  In fact, everyone calm down.  Bickering over semantics and ethnicity is just plain ridiculous over the Internet and in a Christian forum.  

Must be THAT time of the month!   Wink
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« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2002, 02:32:08 PM »

It seems to be THAT time of the month every day of the year when it comes to Internet forums of any stripe, my friend! Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2002, 02:37:53 PM »

It seems to be THAT time of the month every day of the year when it comes to Internet forums of any stripe, my friend! Smiley

You have a point, Schultz.   This forum started out sooooo friendly too, and I hoped it would stay that way, different from the bickering of other forums.  But it would appear that that couldn't last.  Maybe now we can pray a little, pause before posting, and get back on track.

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« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2002, 02:42:38 PM »

I really think the key is the pausing after reading and praying before typing.  Too many times we type something out before we've even thought about what our eyes have just read.  In all humility, I charge us all to "pause and pray".

Maybe we should make that into a bumper sticker...Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2002, 02:55:33 PM »

Even web boards have menstrual cycles.
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« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2002, 02:57:18 PM »

BTW Happy Josephat Feast Day
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« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2002, 02:59:43 PM »


Dear In Christ,

I have to intervene with several points.

First, If someone is angry with another poster and thinks that person needs to stop posting on the subject, please refer it to me, Bobby, or Phil by reporting the post.

Second, telling Serge that he is not "Russian" is silly because Serge has never claimed to be Russian.  Serge has made it clear that he enjoys interacting with Russians and posted an anecdote from his experience with them to back up his point.  If you disagree, then by all means please respond in a NON PERSONAL way.

Third, bickering is going to happen.  We live in a fallen world.  Just follow the other posters' suggestion and pray before typing. Pray again before hitting send!

Fourth, I am looking for where we defined the terms previously.  Mor Ephrem, if you have it, please post a link.  Basically, our position is that yes, Catholic in common parlance refers to Roman Catholics. HOWEVER, if I recall correctly, we requested that for clarity, and in order not to infringe on Eastern Orthodox-Catholics' right to the term Catholic, that we distinguish between Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Eastern Catholics.

I will review the events here later tonight and make a further assesment.  I have to go to class now!!! :-)

In Christ,

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« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2002, 03:24:58 PM »

Second, telling Serge that he is not "Russian" is silly because Serge has never claimed to be Russian.  Serge has made it clear that he enjoys interacting with Russians and posted an anecdote from his experience with them to back up his point.  If you disagree, then by all means please respond in a NON PERSONAL way.

What I found particularly discouraging in Emmaus' reply was not so much telling Serge he wasn't Russian (because he isn't and never claimed to be!) as much as it was the implication I perceived that Russian and Orthodox were one and the same thing; as if to be a good Orthodox, one needed to be Russian or *Russian* Orthodox.  That's silly.      

Third, bickering is going to happen.  We live in a fallen world.  Just follow the other posters' suggestion and pray before typing. Pray again before hitting send!

I agree wholeheartedly with Anastasios and Schultz.  

Fourth, I am looking for where we defined the terms previously.  Mor Ephrem, if you have it, please post a link.

Sure.  Reply no. 19 on this page: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=151;start=15

Basically, our position is that yes, Catholic in common parlance refers to Roman Catholics. HOWEVER, if I recall correctly, we requested that for clarity, and in order not to infringe on Eastern Orthodox-Catholics' right to the term Catholic, that we distinguish between Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Eastern Catholics.

What I actually wrote was that, in the English language, Catholic refers to those Christians under/in communion with the Pope.  To say this does not deny the Catholicity of the Orthodox; it is just a concession to common usage.  For clarity, however, one is encouraged to write out Roman or Byzantine or Armenian or whatever Catholic.  "Catholics in communion with Rome", "Papal Catholic", and things like that sound redundant with this definition, and shouldn't be used, as the terms set forth are already clear enough.  

Orthodox Christians are always allowed to call themselves "Orthodox Catholics" or "Greek Orthodox Catholics" or "Ethiopian Orthodox Catholics" or whatever, because they are "Catholic".  The thing that started this whole name problem in the first place, if I recall correctly, was the insistence of one or more Orthodox Catholics on calling themselves simply Catholics.  This is confusing to those used to the English language, and the bickering that ensued about the right of the Orthodox to use that term was just silly.  No one denied that the Orthodox are Catholic, but to simply call oneself a Catholic would be confusing.
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