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Author Topic: Do Romans and Orthodox wish Eastern Catholics didn't exist?  (Read 16477 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dan Lauffer
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« on: November 11, 2002, 11:47:14 AM »

Friends,

Serge offered a great suggestion: "Why not post this question here?"  So...

I've been associated with the Byzantine Catholic Church, though in our case we are misnamed, though forum constraints will not allow me to suggest what we really are about.  In any case, I've noticed that while some Romans appreciate our Eastern Church most who do appreciate us do so because of the beauty of the liturgy, not for our abberent, from their perspective, theology.  The Pope who has admonished all Westerners to look Eastward for light, and he's right, has given ambiguous messages about the advisability of taking us very seriously.

The Orthodox look upon us as traitors and make caricatures of us as much as possible.  Admittedly many of our parishes are caught in a 1950's time warp and resist Easternization, yet a growing number of Eastern Churches are reawakening to our own heritage.  You ought seriously to take a look at our local Church's website to catch a glimpse of a BC Church which truly is different from your caricatures.

http://byzantinecatholic.com

I guess our insistance upon Orthodox Theology makes us hated by the Romans, at least by those who know what we stand for.  Our insistance upon communion with Rome makes us hated by the Orthodox.  

Oyvay!!!

Dan Lauffer

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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2002, 12:32:53 PM »

Thanks for taking up my suggestion, Dan.

I think officially of course the Catholic Church doesn't wish the Eastern Catholic churches didn't exist and logically (based on belief in the one true church) wishes the Orthodox would in some shape or form became Eastern Catholics. It would be fair to say the Catholic Church wishes the Orthodox Church as such didn't exist.

But it is safe to say a lot of Orthodox wish they didn't exist for ecclesiological reasons (they don't like what they consider a counterfeit) and for an understandable historical reason, that such were used as vehicles to hurt local Orthodox churches by siphoning people off.

Dan, you're right as far as serious Orthodox-minded Eastern Catholics are concerned - I don't think either the Catholic authorities or the Catholic rank and file really want them, even though they are orthodox and antiliberal and thus could do the Catholic communion as a whole a valuable service.

To try to be such always, both before Vatican II and today, has been a kind of martyrdom, a chance to live in real holiness but on the margins of the social and institutional Catholic church - a desert, exile existence. (An arguable exception was Major Archbishop Andrew [Sheptytsky], head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for the first half the 20th century, but he had personal clout because he was also a Polish count.)

(Being a conservative Roman Catholic who happens to worship at a Byzantine church, whether as a Roman refugee or as a 'pseudo-Eastern' as one friend has put it, is different and a lot easier.)

The idealists among you see themselves as Orthodox living in a hoped-for future with no schism. Those Catholics who try to ignore or even deny postschism Catholic definitions of dogma, which are entirely of the Roman Catholic school of thought, logically haven't got a leg to stand on ecclesiologically. To the Catholics, logically, they are dissenters, and to the Orthodox they are at best romantic wannabes and they can't understand why such don't just convert, and at worst poseurs out to accomplish the original mission of the Eastern Catholic enterprise and hurt the Orthodox Church by converting its people to a small copycat church.

Dan, you have a beautiful small-o orthodox church. Looks just like a good OCA church with pews.
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2002, 12:48:22 PM »

Friends,

Serge offered a great suggestion: "Why not post this question here?"  So...

I've been associated with the Byzantine Catholic Church, though in our case we are misnamed, though forum constraints will not allow me to suggest what we really are about.  In any case, I've noticed that while some Romans appreciate our Eastern Church most who do appreciate us do so because of the beauty of the liturgy, not for our abberent, from their perspective, theology.  The Pope who has admonished all Westerners to look Eastward for light, and he's right, has given ambiguous messages about the advisability of taking us very seriously.

The Orthodox look upon us as traitors and make caricatures of us as much as possible.  Admittedly many of our parishes are caught in a 1950's time warp and resist Easternization, yet a growing number of Eastern Churches are reawakening to our own heritage.  You ought seriously to take a look at our local Church's website to catch a glimpse of a BC Church which truly is different from your caricatures.

http://byzantinecatholic.com

I guess our insistance upon Orthodox Theology makes us hated by the Romans, at least by those who know what we stand for.  Our insistance upon communion with Rome makes us hated by the Orthodox.  

Oyvay!!!

Dan Lauffer



Of what benefit are the Eastern Catholic churches to Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2002, 12:55:57 PM »

From the Orthodox POV, zero, except as a cautionary tale about what happens to Eastern people in the Catholic system.

From the Catholic POV, they are a propaganda showplace for the alleged universality of Catholicism with all 'rites' living in harmony.
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2002, 01:15:45 PM »

Check out this picture:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021106/168/2mcch.html

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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2002, 01:17:58 PM »

I understand the real context of this picture, but wow, it sure can be taken to illustrate which rite is top dog in their system!
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2002, 01:19:10 PM »

Quote

That is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishop, right? God Bless!

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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2002, 01:20:16 PM »

Nik,

Yes. I met him in Ukraine
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 01:23:25 PM »

You can also tell he is a Catholic bishop because he is clean shaven Wink  Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2002, 01:24:53 PM »

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You can also tell he is a Catholic bishop because he is clean shaven

Yes, I thought of that too. Just shows graphically that the monsignori in those posts don't identify with the Orthodox-oriented idealist minority in their congregations.
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2002, 01:29:02 PM »

Nik,

Yes. I met him in Ukraine

Surferuke, are you Ukrainian Orthodox or Ukrainian Greek Catholic?   I can't tell.  You seem to dance between both as if it didn't matter.

I remember your post of an archpastoral visitation by Archbishop Vsevolod of Scopelos to "your" UOCofUSA parish's anniversary in CA.  Or wasn't this "your" parish?  Perhaps I assumed wrongly?

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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2002, 01:38:34 PM »

I have been raised both. Dad is Ukrainian Catholic, mom is Ukrainian Orthodox.

But you are right, Archbishop Vsevolod did come to MY parishes anniverary.

I identify myself as Orthodox, though. My fondest memories are there, and I feel my spiritual roots are there. And on the PSAT tests, I fill in the Eastern Orthodox bubble under religion.

If you wish to discuss me, please send a personal message to my account because this topic is not here to discuss my religious upbringings.

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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2002, 01:56:57 PM »

Hypo-Orthodox,
I met Bishop Khoma in L'viv last summer when I was walking in the downtown area. He was outside Holy Transfiguration church greeting people.

I was on my way to Holy Dormition Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral for Liturgy...........
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2002, 01:57:09 PM »

I have been raised both. Dad is Ukrainian Catholic, mom is Ukrainian Orthodox.

But you are right, Archbishop Vsevolod did come to MY parishes anniverary.

I identify myself as Orthodox, though. My fondest memories are there, and I feel my spiritual roots are there. And on the PSAT tests, I fill in the Eastern Orthodox bubble under religion.

If you wish to discuss me, please send a personal message to my account because this topic is not here to discuss my religious upbringings.

surferuke

Quite right, Surferuke.  I didn't intend to strike a raw nerve.  Forgive me.  

In my own family, the Polish Latin Rite Roman Catholics (my father's side) and those few who remained Ukrainian Greek Catholic (my mother's side) looked upon those (most) of us on my mother's side who returned to Eastern Orthodoxy as having joined "The Church of THE ENEMY!"  The bad feelings are still there, particularly fom my father's side.  Relations between the Greek Catholics and Orthodox on my mother's side have improved dramatically over the years, however.

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2002, 02:06:58 PM »

You can also tell he is a Catholic bishop because he is clean shaven Wink  Cheesy

Like Antiochian Metropolitan Phillip and Bp Antoun? :-)

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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2002, 02:12:33 PM »

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(Clean-shaven) Like Antiochian Metropolitan Phillip and Bp Antoun? :-)

And, historically, Theophan (Fan Noli) and Metropolitans Orestes (Chornock) and John (R. Martin), the first and second first hierarchs of ACROD (the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese). (To be fair, those last two were Catholic to begin with.)
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2002, 02:38:27 PM »

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(Clean-shaven) Like Antiochian Metropolitan Phillip and Bp Antoun? :-)

And, historically, Theophan (Fan Noli).... <snip>

With all that Archbishop Fan S. Noli of blessed memory has done as an Albanian patriot and for Albanian Orthodoxy in America, including the translation of liturgical texts into both Albanian and English, and his role in bringing the Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America into the Orthodox Church in America, whether His Eminence had a beard or not is immaterial to me.  

Technically, yes, since all Orthodox bishops are supposed to be taken from the monastic ranks they should be bearded, and they remain monks even after their episcopal consecrations.  I suppose that if they didn't have beards to begin with when they were elected to the episcopacy, then they should at least grow beards once consecrated.  

As far as Metropolitan Philip and Bishop Antoun go, they both seem to think that going beardless and wearing business suits in public, even on church grounds, to appear more American and Episcopalian than traditional Orthodox is of the utmost importance and the way to go to bring the Orthodox message to America.

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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2002, 02:57:37 PM »

[I understand the real context of this picture, but wow, it sure can be taken to illustrate which rite is top dog in their system!]

Yea Gads!  A Ukrainian Bishop kneeling down and kissing the hand of a Polish Pope!  Alll the Zaporozhye Cossacks  who fought so hard and died to perserve the Orthodox faith and Ukrainian land from the Poles must be turning over in their graves!

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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2002, 03:26:45 PM »

God can sure heal schism.  I wonder if that fellow were to wear a beard and would kiss the hand of the Patriarch of Constantinople would he suddenly be considered a holy man?

I don't see why the BC Church has to be of value to either the Orthodox or the Romans especially if both sides are going to ignore Jesus' high priestly prayer in John 17.  

I know, I know, the way to unity is to make others buckle under.  That has been the problem on both sides since 1054.  Should Constantinople supersede Rome.  Today I don't see the point.  

As Serge has pointed out, Ecclesiology is really what separates the two Churches.  I agree.

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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2002, 03:57:31 PM »

Dan, you have of late been speaking of the Eastern Catholic Churches as a seperate entity from Rome, and talked about home Rome does things and teaches thins wrong and how what they think doesn't matter, etc. If that is so, how does that make you truly in communion with them and how does that make the Eastern Catholic Churches the answer to unity? God Bless!
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2002, 04:08:26 PM »

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We Orthodox Catholics simply believe that if the Vatican and the Pope is really sincere in the current propaganda it expounds -

1)  That the Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches are SISTER Churches.

2)  That we are the 'other lung' of the original Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

3)  That our Sacraments are valid.

4)  That our salvation is not dependent on being 'under the authority of' Rome.

5)  That our church is grace filled.

Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?

It's as simple as that.  'Put your money where your mouth is' as the saying goes.  

As far as a Roman Catholic view of the Eastern Catholic Churches, most of the RC's I know are unaware of the Eastern Catholic Churches existence.  Or they see it as a funny ethnic group  with  funny ritual.  Those that are aware of its existence, see it as either some kind of second class form of Roman Catholicism or a bunch of confused people with a Roman Catholic envy ident.

In one of the Orthodox discussion groups I belong the subject of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church came up and a ROMAN CATHOLIC replied that there should be no such thing as the Byzantine Rite.  That it should be called the Byzantine WRONG because  - "They are the most confused people in al of Christiandom!"  His words, not mine.

As for Orthodox Catholics, let me begin by quoting my baba (grandmother) when as a kid.  Once I asked why she left the Byzantine Catholic Church and returned to Orthodox Catholicism -  "Dos people don know vat  dey are or vat dey vant be.  Dey no vant  be Roamin Catolik's but dey no vant be Pravoslavnie (Orthodox) neider.  Dey neider fish nor fowl."

And, that is primarily the way most Orthodox Catholics see you.  Especially those of us who have either returned to Orthodoxy or are from parents or grandparents who did.  There is no need for you to come here and explain who and what you are.  We already know.  Probably better than you do because so many of us have 'been there' and 'done that'.

We shake our heads when we read some of your posts complaining about how Rome treats you or something else Rome has done to you and then end with - 'But they promised things will change'.  [Example is a married priesthood as standard for the US].  Do you know that is a perfect example of 'battered wives syndrome'?  We are amazed when we read posts from some of you who are so intimidated by the Roman Catholic hierachy that you are looking to, and for, OUR BISHOPS to fight your battles for you in heir consultations with the RC hierachy.

Individually we see you as nice people who were once part of us.  But people who have taken all the beauty that is Orthodoxy - our ritual, our Icons, our hymns, our music,  and to a certain extent our theology and turned your backs on us.  A people who are confused theologically and have been searching for an identity for over 400 years now and are still confused.  In just the the 62 years of my existence you have changed your identity twice and are now in the process of re-identifying yourself for the third time (Greek Catholic, Byzantine or Ukrainian Catholic <depending on your ethnic loyality> , and now "Orthodox In Communion With Rome".  It is not enough that you have taken everything else now you want to take away our very identity and present it to the Pope.

Let me end with where I began.  If WE ARE everything Rome claims we are, then there is no longer a reason for your existence.

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2002, 04:19:05 PM »

Quote
We Orthodox Catholics simply believe that if the Vatican and the Pope is really sincere in the current propaganda it expounds -

1)  That the Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches are SISTER Churches.

2)  That we are the 'other lung' of the original Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

3)  That our Sacraments are valid.

4)  That our salvation is not dependent on being 'under the authority of' Rome.

5)  That our church is grace filled.

Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

Here's why that won't happen. Catholicism today officially is charitable to born Orthodox and as noted by documents like Balamand is not trying to solicit born Orthodox to change membership. But it holds a different view towards anybody who is or has been Catholic, logically. It won't push its own people in the Eastern Catholic churches out of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2002, 04:32:11 PM »

Quote
We Orthodox Catholics simply believe that if the Vatican and the Pope is really sincere in the current propaganda it expounds -

1)  That the Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches are SISTER Churches.

2)  That we are the 'other lung' of the original Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

3)  That our Sacraments are valid.

4)  That our salvation is not dependent on being 'under the authority of' Rome.

5)  That our church is grace filled.

Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?

It's as simple as that.  'Put your money where your mouth is' as the saying goes.  

As far as a Roman Catholic view of the Eastern Catholic Churches, most of the RC's I know are unaware of the Eastern Catholic Churches existence.  Or they see it as a funny ethnic group  with  funny ritual.  Those that are aware of its existence, see it as either some kind of second class form of Roman Catholicism or a bunch of confused people with a Roman Catholic envy ident.

In one of the Orthodox discussion groups I belong the subject of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church came up and a ROMAN CATHOLIC replied that there should be no such thing as the Byzantine Rite.  That it should be called the Byzantine WRONG because  - "They are the most confused people in al of Christiandom!"  His words, not mine.

As for Orthodox Catholics, let me begin by quoting my baba (grandmother) when as a kid.  Once I asked why she left the Byzantine Catholic Church and returned to Orthodox Catholicism -  "Dos people don know vat  dey are or vat dey vant be.  Dey no vant  be Roamin Catolik's but dey no vant be Pravoslavnie (Orthodox) neider.  Dey neider fish nor fowl."

And, that is primarily the way most Orthodox Catholics see you.  Especially those of us who have either returned to Orthodoxy or are from parents or grandparents who did.  There is no need for you to come here and explain who and what you are.  We already know.  Probably better than you do because so many of us have 'been there' and 'done that'.

We shake our heads when we read some of your posts complaining about how Rome treats you or something else Rome has done to you and then end with - 'But they promised things will change'.  [Example is a married priesthood as standard for the US].  Do you know that is a perfect example of 'battered wives syndrome'?  We are amazed when we read posts from some of you who are so intimidated by the Roman Catholic hierachy that you are looking to, and for, OUR BISHOPS to fight your battles for you in heir consultations with the RC hierachy.

Individually we see you as nice people who were once part of us.  But people who have taken all the beauty that is Orthodoxy - our ritual, our Icons, our hymns, our music,  and to a certain extent our theology and turned your backs on us.  A people who are confused theologically and have been searching for an identity for over 400 years now and are still confused.  In just the the 62 years of my existence you have changed your identity twice and are now in the process of re-identifying yourself for the third time (Greek Catholic, Byzantine or Ukrainian Catholic <depending on your ethnic loyality> , and now "Orthodox In Communion With Rome".  It is not enough that you have taken everything else now you want to take away our very identity and present it to the Pope.

Let me end with where I began.  If WE ARE everything Rome claims we are, then there is no longer a reason for your existence.

Orthodoc

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I salute you.

Brilliant.

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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2002, 04:47:18 PM »

[But it holds a different view towards anybody who is or has been Catholic, logically. It won't push its own people in the Eastern Catholic churches out of the Catholic Church.]

An once again, we get back to the word 'Catholic'.  Serge, if we are the 'other lung' of the same body (The Holy CATHOLIC & Apostolic Church in the Creed),  and identified as 'sisters' within that body - how can they be pushing them out of the Catholic Church?  

If we are two organs within the same body and have the same parentage, then they are not  being pushed out of the Catholic Church.  One sister is merely  returning her neices and nephews back to their mother who is also her recognized blood sister).

You may have converted to Holy Orthodox Catholicity but your whole mindset is still very much Roman Catholic.

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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2002, 05:10:53 PM »

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[But it holds a different view towards anybody who is or has been Catholic, logically. It won't push its own people in the Eastern Catholic churches out of the Catholic Church.]

An once again, we get back to the word 'Catholic'. Serge, if we are the 'other lung' of the same body (The Holy CATHOLIC & Apostolic Church in the Creed),  and identified as 'sisters' within that body - how can they be pushing them out of the Catholic Church?  

Easy. Each side claims to be the one true church. AFAIK Dominus Iesus, the latest official Catholic document on the subject, explains it - it's very logical. Catholics see the Orthodox as having Churchness because they have real bishops and the Eucharist but as less than the Catholic Church. The Orthodox are seen as sister Churches, for their born and ex-Protestant, ex-unchurched members, to Catholic particular/ritual churches and Roman dioceses, but as less than the Catholic Church as a whole, which by definition can have no sisters. So of course the Catholic Church won't push people involuntarily out of full membership in it. (Here we're not talking about excommunication for heresy, etc.)

The flip side of the coin as you, a born Orthodox, probably know is the Orthodox claim the Orthodox communion is the Church, period, and anything outside that communion is a big unknown.
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2002, 05:45:47 PM »

[God can sure heal schism.  I wonder if that fellow were to wear a beard and would kiss the hand of the Patriarch of Constantinople would he suddenly be considered a holy man?]

As an Orthodox Catholic he would not be required to kneel down in front of the Ecumenical or any other Orthodox Patriarch for that matter.  That is the point.  

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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2002, 05:54:30 PM »

Allow me to weigh into the matter from my hopefully accurate perception of things in my region.

At the moment, I'll say that we inhabitants of the Levant of Melkite and Antiochian Orthodox lineage are indeed a special case, in terms of our perceptions of history, our cemented relationships on the ground which ever so often includes ties of blood--intermarriage, at least involving these two particular Churches of the two Communions, being a spontaneous social practice that qualifies as a natural activity and even a tradition of sorts (natural enough that some pious women who engaged in intermarriage would fast the strict traditional fast for both Lents) as opposed to an artificial social engineering ploy--our attitudes towards each other insofar as the layman is concerned, our contempt channeled at what we see as power hungry hierarchs and corrupt priests* rather than at ourselves, and above all no national conflict contributing to any friction, the only such contempt existing between the Greek Jerusalemite hierarchy and what might be a good portion of the Arab flock.  In fact the successful consolidation of the Patriarchal throne of Antioch by Arabs may have been a large contributor to better relations between Melkites and Orthodox.

*had we known what the apex of corruption translates to amongst Western priests, and had a clue as to what scandals had become so commonplace in that part of the world, we would probably receive an epiphany and never let a priest of our own out of our sight without kissing his hand.

Whenever I witness salvos of hositility launched between Orthodox and Eastern Catholics, it usually translates into a Slavic titanomachy that doesn't correlate with our own experiences, or a purely ideological faceoff that doesn't touch on the national grudges of the old country; this usually involves WASP converts or Americans of whatever stripe. These two paradigms have to be broken out of in order to perceive universal Orthodox-Eastern Catholic relations in its full spectrum both as they involve clergy, and laymen.  The Turkish millet system contributed to our classifications; "Uniate" doesn't exist in our vocabulary, and I'm not sure I can even successfully translate it.  Orthodox are still called Romans (Romaio) in our countries.  "Melkite" on the other hand is rarely used in common speech; "Katoleek" is the propre name or if we decline to use shorthand, "Roman Catholics", though Roman in the same sense the Orthodox are, not as it would be understood in English here.

The most you'll get out of us is traditional jokes that are used to tease the other party (these may have had a sharper and more hostile connotation in the distant past), and a contest on whose Sad Friday it should rain.  Our divisions effectively translate to the disruption caused by two Paschas and two Lents, and in Jordan it was the people in their frustration at the situation who brought about the unity of the two Paschas, not the hierarchs.  As far as most common people are concerned, the only difference between us is that the Melkites "bi'aido ma'al Baba" (celebrate [Pascha] with the Pope), thinking that the schism is, at least as it exists in our local experience and microcosm, perpetuated by the clergy fighting for the sake of "karasee", chairs.

My comments pertain to the region under the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarchate; attitudes may be different under Jerusalem.

As is the case with most folk, ritual and liturgical traditions define the religious experience, understanding, and perception.  In Syria, our bonds with our brethren in ritual, exceed in strength our ties with the other sister Catholic Churches.  Many amongst both our Churches cannot stand the Maronites; some of us would probably think it propostrous to assume that we have any connection with them that is close to the connections we have with the Antiochian Orthodox.  Many of us would live as if the schism didn't exist, and probably wouldn't recognize it.  Both were more than ready and exhilerated by the prospects of a united calendar in Syria (which to us is the only large testament to the schism, our Berlin Wall so to speak), the Julian Paschal calendar, nushkur Allah, but the Syrians, Armenians, and Maronites squawked, even though this Melkite internal affair had nothing to do with them.  The project was aborted.

There are several historical and sociological factors that contribute to this friendly tone in relations between the two parties, that distinguish them from conflicts in the Balkans and elsewhere:

1) The Melkites are staunchly Eastern, especially in their thinking and more Orthodox theological consciousness (akin to the Russian Catholics) rather than a hybridized conundrum.  This isn't to say that there aren't some Latin additions.  I'm ready to see those scrapped.

2) The Melkite Church is neither a small minority nor a small remnant or fraction.  It is a strong Church headed by a Patriarch.  It does not share the plight of the Russian Catholics who barely survive today, given their present numbers.

3) No nationalist squabbles.  In fact, those rather might be found between the different ritual Churches.  The Maronites are pro-Crusades in their historical hindsight, and are not wedded to Arabism as the Rum Ortodox/Katoleek are. Today they are seen as a political embarrasment when it comes to politics in the Middle East.  Patriarch Sfeir is perceived to be ruining the image of the Christians in the Arab countries, an important image that we believe must be collectively maintained in a very positive manner by all the Churches, given our minority status as a religion.

4) No one Church had state power to use too heavily against one side.  The Turks had the rod.  There was no Orthodox/Catholic/Oriental Orthodox country or nation.

5) The Arabic tongue that facilitates dialogue amongst all the Churches in the Middle East, the Churches of all three ancient Apostolic Patriarchates.

6) Our minority status as Christians.  Unfortunately that doesn't quell the hositilities between Orthodox and Latin clergy, or the trademark antagonism of the parties within the Church of the Resurrection, even in occupied Palestine with all its troubles.

7) An Arab Orthodox Patriarch on the throne of Antioch.

Cool I strongly suspect the existance of the Oriental Orthodox Churches contributed to diffusing a sharp Catholic/ Eastern Orthodox polarity of the kind that exists in Eastern Europe.  

9) A very important point to consider is that Arabs tend to lack a sense of pan-Orthodoxy or pan-Catholicism.  As Arabs with a fortress mentality, we prefer to remain shut in and isolationist (the Christian world, given the plethora of Churches and the three Apostolic Sees present in the Levant, may as well revolve exclusively around us).  Arab Orthodox don't have a sense of bonding or concern with the Greek and Slavic, or even Orthodox world, while Greeks and Slavs have ties that were demonstrated when the Serbs were decimated by the Empire, the collective hegemony of NATO-crats and Americans.  I would venture to say that Arabs see the particular Church above the Church family or Communion, meaning that in the case of the Catholics, each Church is indeed a Church on its own, not an appendage of the Latins--as demonstrated by one of our listmember's account of his old country relative's ignorance of not being pravoslavnie--as one could care less about the other Catholic Churches, least of all the Roman Church (other tawa'if; they might as well be Orthodox or of another Church family entirely).  And the Protestants?  Oh they must be Christians too.  Try to kindly explain to the simple folk where we come from that there is such a thing as a non-Apostolic Christian (the word "Christian" automatically designates an Apostolic; there is no other kind we know of, regardless of the small Protestant minority in our region) before the delusion that assumes otherwise propels such on a dangerous course once they immigrate to non-Apotolic turf in the West.  

This isolationalist tendency to see the stage of both Christianity and Church unity set entirely in the Middle East,  ("Patriarchs, facilitate a unity" without care as to how the decisions and input of the Churches outside the Arab world factor in) was well illustrated in the unilateral attempts of the two Antiochian synods and Patriarchates to reunite.  For a Christian well informed in matters concerning the Christian world stage, aware of the crucial concept of various Church families acting as a whole, this bold attempt at unity could be quickly seen as a failed attempt from the start.  From the perspective of the Arab whose perception of Church relations does not bother to extend itself beyond the confines of the Arab world to encompass the entire world or Christian family and Communion his jurisdiction belongs to, with the press announcements of this endeavour on the parts of the two Patriarchates, what was so difficult to accomplish for numerous centuries becomes expected to have a good chance at turning into reality within the next few months, at least in our own little world of Rum Katoleek/Ortodox Christians.  

10) Finally, to my knowledge there are no saints on either side that qualified as martyrs dispatched by the other when there actually were conflicts between the two at the beginning of the split in the Antiochian Patriarchate.  I don't know of the existance of any saint in our Church who was responsible for forging communion with Rome, nor are there any samples that I am aware of, from religious texts, that concern our entering the Uniate contract, no troparia that speak of the "schismatic Orthodox" etc.

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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2002, 05:54:50 PM »

[God can sure heal schism.  I wonder if that fellow were to wear a beard and would kiss the hand of the Patriarch of Constantinople would he suddenly be considered a holy man?]

As an Orthodox Catholic he would not be required to kneel down in front of the Ecumenical or any other Orthodox Patriarch for that matter.  That is the point.  

Orthodoc


Not even any foot-kissing as the Melkite Greek-Catholic Patriarch of Antioch was required to do to Pius IX at Vatican I, when Pius IX quickly placed his foot on the Melkite Patriarch's head?  Boy, we Orthodox are sure missing out on some important Eastern Catholic symbolic rituals!  Grin

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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2002, 06:07:55 PM »

I do believe that practice is no more.  We've gotten over it.  Perhaps you should as well.

I came here to learn more about Orthodox Christianity, first as an observer and perhaps later as an active, contributing member of the community.  All I've learned, though, are the intricacies of the "Orthodox vs. Catholic" semantics argument and that I as a non-Slav cannot possibly fully understand Uniatism.  

I've actually learned more from the hardline OrthodoxyorDeath than anyone else, with Serge's "historical perspective" posts coming in a close second.  

In all humility,
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2002, 06:09:12 PM »

What is the traditional customary greeting between the bishop of one Orthodox Patriarchate and the Patriarch of another Patriarchate, if I may ask?

We're proud of the stances of our Patriarchs in Vatican I & II, and I always court the temptation to use the widely circulated story of our Patriarch's treatment by Pope Pius IX to make a strong point.  In all fairness though, I recall reading something (I believe it was some input on the part of Bishop Eliyah) that suggested this story to be something of an urban legend based on an incident where the Patriarch did manage to answer back to the Pope's comment that, to parahrase, "This one is the troublemaker."  I am thinking of looking further into this to evaluate the veracity of the story.

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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2002, 06:23:28 PM »

{What is the traditional customary greeting between the bishop of one Orthodox Patriarchate and the Patriarch of another Patriarchate, if I may ask?}

From what I have seen its a handshake and a kiss on both cheeks.  However, the slavic  custom is to kiss on the cheek three times.

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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2002, 06:36:25 PM »

{What is the traditional customary greeting between the bishop of one Orthodox Patriarchate and the Patriarch of another Patriarchate, if I may ask?}

From what I have seen its a handshake and a kiss on both cheeks.  However, the slavic  custom is to kiss on the cheek three times.

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Actually, Orthodoc, I believe that after the exchange of the kiss of peace (the cheek-kissing), the same as is done at the Divine Liturgy, they kiss each other's right hand.  You will notice that many traditional Orthodox priests also exchange the exact same greeting when they meet.  I've even seen this done publicly, e.g., at Boston's Logan International Airport, between Orthodox priests garbed in the customary riassa.

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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2002, 06:45:54 PM »

Quote
Serge,

And just would that different view be, since I converted from the RCC to Orthodoxy to attain the fullness of Faith?
And, would it really amount to a hill of beans since I have joined the ancient church of our Fathers?  IOW, since I was a RC I cant be saved in the Roman mindset except to revert back to RCC?

JoeS

PS The "two lung theory" refers to the Byzantines and the Romans and not the Orthodox,if you are a subscriber to EWTN.

<<Here's why that won't happen. Catholicism today officially is charitable to born Orthodox and as noted by documents like Balamand is not trying to solicit born Orthodox to change membership. But it holds a different view towards anybody who is or has been Catholic, logically. It won't push its own people in the Eastern Catholic churches out of the Catholic Church.
>>
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2002, 06:52:08 PM »

I do believe that practice is no more.  We've gotten over it.  Perhaps you should as well.
<big snip>
In all humility,
Schultz.

Are you referring to the ritual kissing of the Pope's slipper, Schultz?  Because if you are, I believe that Cardinals--who may simultaneously be Eastern Catholic patriarchs-- as a sign of obedience and loyalty, *still* ceremoniously kiss the slipper of a newly-elected Pope as he sits on his throne at his installation.  If you have documentation that Pope John Paul II has changed this ritual, please let us know.

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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2002, 07:07:14 PM »

JoeS,

Quote
And just would that different view be, since I converted from the RCC to Orthodoxy to attain the fullness of Faith?

Well, as someone of your maturity who was a Roman Catholic already may know, ex-Catholics are ipso facto excommunicated whether they become Orthodox, Protestant or whatever.

Quote
And, would it really amount to a hill of beans since I have joined the ancient church of our Fathers?

To you, perhaps not.

Quote
IOW, since I was a RC I cant be saved in the Roman mindset except to revert back to RCC?

Well, nobody teaches that excommunication means a sentence to hell. Catholics would say you're risking hell by doing what you're doing but that's not the same as saying you're definitely going there. Only God knows. And while one may logically conclude that because of the Pope all Catholics are Romans, to be fair to Eastern Catholics, no, Catholicism doesn't say one has to revert to Roman Catholicism but also offers the various Eastern Catholic groups. To which you probably would comment, 'Yeah, same thing'. Perhaps.

There are Orthodox who are charitable and say born Eastern Catholics have the freedom to choose to stay where they are, while of course hoping they choose instead to become Orthodox. So far it seems no one can prove the Catholics officially don't want the Eastern Catholic groups to exist. Any challenges to that?
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2002, 07:08:33 PM »

What is the traditional customary greeting between the bishop of one Orthodox Patriarchate and the Patriarch of another Patriarchate, if I may ask?

We're proud of the stances of our Patriarchs in Vatican I & II, and I always court the temptation to use the widely circulated story of our Patriarch's treatment by Pope Pius IX to make a strong point.  In all fairness though, I recall reading something (I believe it was some input on the part of Bishop Eliyah) that suggested this story to be something of an urban legend based on an incident where the Patriarch did manage to answer back to the Pope's comment that, to parahrase, "This one is the troublemaker."  I am thinking of looking further into this to evaluate the veracity of the story.

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Not to make a big deal out of it, Samer, but is the "Bishop Eliyah" to whom you make reference the same as "Archbishop John A. Elya" of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Newton?  I had Archbishop Elya (then "Archimandrite John Elya") as my instructor in Melkite Church History at the (now-closed, I believe) Melkite Eparchial Seminary of St. Gregory the Theologian in Newton Centre, MA, where I was studying for the diaconate for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Passaic.  The then Fr. Elya said of the Melkites: "We were ALWAYS Catholic," i.e., in communion with Rome.  He also denied the existence of "monsignori" in the Melkite Church.  (I had much more respect for the honesty of Archbishop Joseph Tawil of blessed memory, who was another one of my instructors.)

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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2002, 07:32:58 PM »

One can say Say'yedna John is hardly cut out of the same cloth of many of the metropolitans, certainly hardly out of that of Say'yedna Zoghbi (I believe the former was one of the two bishops who did not agree to put his signature on the latter's proposal which came about when the reunion initiative was launched).

One's view of Church history is one thing.  But one can expect someone to be more precise when it comes to the factual credibility or lack thereof of a relatively recent incident such as that particular conciliar gathering.  I have never looked into the matter of this particular story or tried to verify it and have no basis at this point on which to make a conclusion.  I can expect motives and biases to underlie both positions.  Whatever one may think of Say'yedna John's bent and orientation on many matters, his or any other's suggestion that there may be some hyperbole in the story, and my lack of knowledge of the matter makes it worthwile to tap into some sources and make a small investigation into it sometime in the future.

He denied the existance of monsignori, you say? Interesting.  
One can dream though, can't he?

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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2002, 07:34:39 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Yes, I was referring to the foot kissing ritual.  As I said, "I do believe" and don't have any documentation in front of me.  I was only 3 years old at the time of John Paul II installation and don't remember it at all Smiley.  Perhaps we will see soon enough, though, if this practice is really gone.
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2002, 08:29:08 PM »

Quote
One can say Say'yedna John is hardly cut out of the same cloth of many of the metropolitans, certainly hardly out of that of Say'yedna Zoghbi (I believe the former was one of the two bishops who did not agree to put his signature on the latter's proposal which came about when the reunion initiative was launched).

Hypo-Ortho<<I think you're right, Samer.  Bishop Elias Zoghby is one of the most Orthodox-minded of the Melkite hierarchs.  Sayedna John, OTOH, has the reputation, sad to say, of being both a Latinophile and an adherent of a revisionist Melkite Church history.>>

<big snip>

Samer<<He denied the existance of monsignori, you say? Interesting.  
One can dream though, can't he?>>

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He dreams, but not as a realist.  Grin

My experience at the Melkite Seminary was a very good one and helped prepare me for my entrance into Orthodoxy shortly thereafter.  Indeed, one of my instructors encouraged me in that direction.  There were many late-night long-distance phone calls with my asking for advice and prayers before taking the big step.  

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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2002, 08:42:23 PM »

Serge,
 
I am not an ex-Catholic I'm an ex-Roman Catholic.  Please give me that much.  And, yes I voluntarily renounced what I consider the revisionist history of the once unchangeable church. Cool

JoeS

Well, as someone of your maturity who was a Roman Catholic already may know, ex-Catholics are ipso facto excommunicated whether they become Orthodox, Protestant or whatever.

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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2002, 09:04:23 PM »

JoeS,

Actually, according to the norms for communion published in the back of every missallette in every RC church, it is clearly states that members of the Orthodox Churches may receive communion in a Catholic Church under certain circumstances:

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 -º 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º 3). "



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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2002, 09:24:17 PM »

I think we may be reading too much into this.  The Pope is weaker than he used to be, and doesn't stand for long, or often (that I've seen in recent days).  Could it be that he just happens to be sitting down, and rather than stand over him and talk to him, this Ukrainian bishop chose to kneel to be more on his level?  Furthermore, the picture looks like it was taken at a general audience...any idea why that bishop is dressed the way he is rather than in something a bit less liturgical looking?
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2002, 09:34:31 PM »

Well thats what I figured as well.  If I were destined for Hell because I converted to another Catholic Faith, I certainly would not be allowed to receive the Eucharist in my previous faith. Not that I would want to understand.

I have to learn to take some of Serge's comments with a grain of salt.

Joe

JoeS,

Actually, according to the norms for communion published in the back of every missallette in every RC church, it is clearly states that members of the Orthodox Churches may receive communion in a Catholic Church under certain circumstances:

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 -º 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º 3). "




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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2002, 11:22:06 PM »

Quote
Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º 3).

I know that. It logically doesn't apply to ex-Catholics.
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2002, 11:28:01 PM »

Quote
Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º 3).

I know that. It logically doesn't apply to ex-Catholics.

Then why doesn't the canon code say that? It seems if Orthodox could theoretically receive except ex-RC Catholics, it would say so, no? God Bless!
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2002, 11:55:56 PM »

Quote
It will be interesting to hear the answer to this.

JoeS


Then why doesn't the canon code say that? It seems if Orthodox could theoretically receive except ex-RC Catholics, it would say so, no? God Bless!
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2002, 12:01:46 AM »

As I understand, Catholics becoming Orthodox become schismatic according to Catholicism (becoming Protestant is heresy, becoming a non-Christian is apostasy) and so such can't go to Communion (not that they'd want to anyway - it's pretty theoretical). I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2002, 12:29:11 AM »

I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.

But it also doesn't make sense. I mean, to say it cool for Jane and John to be Orthodox, but not Serge. I mean either Orthodoxy is good and the Church with valid sacraments to the RC or its not. That's the way I see it anyway. God Bless!
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2002, 12:36:41 AM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Hypo-Ortho


[/quote

Not to make a big deal out of it, Samer, but is the "Bishop Eliyah" to whom you make reference the same as "Archbishop John A. Elya" of the Melkite Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Newton?  I had Archbishop Elya (then "Archimandrite John Elya") as my instructor in Melkite Church History at the (now-closed, I believe) Melkite Eparchial Seminary of St. Gregory the Theologian in Newton Centre, MA, where I was studying for the diaconate for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Passaic.  The then Fr. Elya said of the Melkites: "We were ALWAYS Catholic," i.e., in communion with Rome.  He also denied the existence of "monsignori" in the Melkite Church.  (I had much more respect for the honesty of Archbishop Joseph Tawil of blessed memory, who was another one of my instructors.)

Hypo-Ortho  


      Did you ever know the beloved Archbishop Joseph (Raya)??  I have never  known a better Eastern Christian HIerarch.  He is
 one of the greatest influences in drawing me to Orthodoxy.  I will never forget him giving the homily at my Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic parish in San Diego.  He exuded the holiness and ethos of the Eastern Church!!

                     Peace,
                       Brian
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2002, 01:29:45 AM »

As I understand, Catholics becoming Orthodox become schismatic according to Catholicism (becoming Protestant is heresy, becoming a non-Christian is apostasy) and so such can't go to Communion (not that they'd want to anyway - it's pretty theoretical). I don't know where it says all that in Catholic canon law but it has to be in there somewhere. It's common sense! So such would cancel out the implicit invitation that is is meant for born, ex-Protestant and ex-unchurched Orthodox.

But Serge, as we discussed this on Byzcath several years ago, no such distinction explicitly exists in Eastern canon law--and in the Catholic canon law, something HAS to be explicit to be a law.  I also don't recall it saying explicitly that Eastern Catholics going Orthodox are schismatics, either, where in Latin Canon law it does--a pastoral concession to reality?

I know of several cases where ex-Catholic Orthodox went back to communion in a Catholic Church, no problem (and not just in my parish! ;-)

Your belief may "make sense" but really it is all based on opinions that do not have an explicit canonical basis.

In Christ,

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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2002, 08:06:11 AM »

Emmaus,

"Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?"

**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**

Dan Lauffer Kiss

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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2002, 08:48:48 AM »

Having been quite the aspiring canonist back in the day, I pulled out my copy of the Code of Canon Law for the Western Churches.

It says:

Can. 1364 -º1 An apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provision of Can. 194 -º1, n. 2; a cleric, moreover, may be punished with the penalties mentioned in Can. 1336 -º1, nn. 1, 2 and 3.


Now, like civil law, canon law has it's conservatives and liberals, and cross referencing this particular reference to a purple book I have on canon law, (I can't remember the name), this particiular canon extends to anyone who leaves the Church of Rome. Orthodox or Protestant. At the time of the writing in 1983, Orthodox were still considered 'schismatic'.

However, as i can remember, recent proclaimations exist, namely by John Paul II, that all excommunications of Orthodox have been rendered null, but I'm not sure if they exist on people who leave their existing faith under Rome, and become Orthodox.


Bobby


PS Since Catholics dogmatize papal infallbility, and since not belieivng in a dogma constitutes heresy, one would be considered a heretic since he rejects the dogma which he is held under as a Catholic. This would satisfy the demands of the canon, as becoming Orthodox, you would of course reject that canon

PSSS

Ok I pulled out my eastern code of canon law. In it it says :

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.
2. In addition to these cases, whoever obstinately rejects a teaching that the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising the authentic magisterium, have set forth to be held definitively, or who affirms what they have condemned as erroneous, and does not retract after having been legitimately warned is to be punished with excommunication.
Can. 1437 A  person who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church or communion with the Christian faithful subject to it, and does not obey is punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication.

It seems these are directed towards people who leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2002, 09:01:58 AM »

Maybe the loophole (omission) is in the 'Eastern' code to reflect the reality of the Middle East where people go back and forth all the time w/o intending to switch allegiances - not REAL ex-Catholics.
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« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2002, 09:05:42 AM »

On the contrary Serge, the Eastern Code is more descript on the issue than the western code, as stated in the above post.

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« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2002, 09:21:45 AM »

Lets see if I have this right:
So socalled ex-Catholics as well as many Byzantine Catholics who reject the canons on Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and the like are still (technically) concidered heretics/apostates.  The only difference is that, if you are in union with Rome, these unbeliefs become uninportant.  So, everything hinges on union with Rome. That is the key? Huh

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« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2002, 09:30:34 AM »

Joe,

I'm no expert in canon law, but the words in themselves can't lie.

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.

Unfortunately no scholarly commentary exists on the eastern code of canon law, but from the above passage, I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.


Bobby
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« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2002, 09:36:15 AM »

Bobby,

Thank you for that clarification.

In Christ,

JoeS

Joe,

I'm no expert in canon law, but the words in themselves can't lie.

Can. 1436 A person who denies some truth that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt, or totally rejects the Catholic faith, and does not reconsider, through legitmately warned, is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with a major excommunication.

Unfortunately no scholarly commentary exists on the eastern code of canon law, but from the above passage, I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.


Bobby
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« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2002, 10:29:45 AM »

[ I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.]

Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.  
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'I Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2002, 10:30:40 AM »

Emmaus,

"Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice.  If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important  for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church.  Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church?"

**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**

Dan Lauffer Kiss


Dan,

By separating themselves from their mother churches, Eastern Catholics haven't healed schisms but have only created more.

"In the name of unity.... schism," isn't a very good commentary on John 17!

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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2002, 10:44:06 AM »

[ I would surmise that, yes, if one rejects something that must be believed by divine and Catholic faith(dogmas of the roman church, infallibility, purgatory, etc.) then one is considered a heretic, and thus excommunicated.]

Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.  
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'I Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Orthodoc



Orthodoc,

Yes, it would seem this way. From the perspective of canon law, it would seem that being a Catholic means accepting the whole package, regardless of what "sui iuris" church you belong to.

Can. 1437 A  person who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church or communion with the Christian faithful subject to it, and does not obey is punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication

Now here in canon 1437, it is unclear whether Supreme Authority refers to the Pope. Anyone want to comment? If that was the case, communion with the Pope of Rome is required, else one is considered schismatic.

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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2002, 10:48:36 AM »

Quote
So socalled ex-Catholics as well as many Byzantine Catholics who reject the canons on Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and the like are still (technically) concidered heretics/apostates.


Objectively yes, but apostasy means converting to a non-Christian religion, which isn't the case here.

Quote
The only difference is that, if you are in union with Rome, these unbeliefs become uninportant.  So, everything hinges on union with Rome. That is the key?

Patriarch L'ubomyr sure made it sound that way!

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.

Quote
Which would make quite a few Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholics who post here and elsewhere heretics and excommunicated based on what they claim to believe.
 

Yes. As I wrote here, to Catholics, such people are dissenters.

Quote
It also, once again, invalidates the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' claim.  By proving my claim that, by being 'In Communion ' with Rome they are also under its authority and required to accept its theology and all dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

True.

Quote
By separating themselves from their mother churches, Eastern Catholics haven't healed schisms but have only created more.

The near consensus among orthodox yet ecumenically minded Catholics and Orthodox is just that: exacerbating the big split and creating a further schism among Easterns by setting up the Eastern Catholic churches was a mistake. But the same experts say the present-day Eastern Catholics have a right to choose to be who they are. So this admission isn't the same as saying, 'We wish the Eastern Catholics didn't exist'.
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2002, 10:58:32 AM »

[**Following your logic who then would be faithful to Jesus' pray and call recorded in John 17?  Surely not the Romans.  Surely not the Orthodox.  No, someone has to remain faithful to Christ and so it might as well be the Eastern Catholics.**]

Your comment makes no sense to me.  Are you saying that the only ones that remain faithful to Christ are the Eastern Catholics because of what is written in John 17:21?

John 17:21:  "that they all may be one as You Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Once again, you are using the Protestant concept of selective quoting.  

Are the Eastern Catholics being faithful to the teachings of  Scripture when claim to accept Orthodox theology while recognizing as their earthy head a bishop who proclaims, protects, and upholds a different theology?  What about  I Corinthians 1:10 Dan -

I Corinthians 1:10:  [Caps are mine to emphasize)  Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and that there be no divisions among you, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGEMENT.

ORTHODOC



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« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2002, 11:22:49 AM »

[Objectively yes, but apostasy means converting to a non-Christian religion, which isn't the case here.]

No it doesn't Serge.  From 'The Complete Book Of Orthodoxy' -

Apostasy (Gk. for "turning away") - Used to describe Christians who reject 1 Timothy 1:5-7.  IT IS ALSO USED TO DESCRIBE THOSE BAPTISED AND CHRISMATED, WHO HAVE ABANDONED THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH, FOR ANOTHER CHURCH OR SECT.  The neglect of one's faith, even though complete, is not Apostasy.  It is also a highly legaized term used in the Roman Church to iclude any act which separates one from the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff.

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« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2002, 11:27:27 AM »

And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

JoeS

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.

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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2002, 11:36:42 AM »

My last para should have been in quotes.

And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

JoeS

""And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.""


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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2002, 11:48:07 AM »

Some  gleamings from the Eastern Code of Canon Law that I found "cute":

Canon 671 Section 1
Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to the Catholic Christian faithful, who likewise receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.

Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Canon 333
Mandates that all priests celebrate Divine Liturgy daily if possible.

Will post more later.

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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2002, 11:55:11 AM »

No it doesn't Serge.  From 'The Complete Book Of Orthodoxy' -

Apostasy (Gk. for "turning away") - Used to describe Christians who reject 1 Timothy 1:5-7.  IT IS ALSO USED TO DESCRIBE THOSE BAPTISED AND CHRISMATED, WHO HAVE ABANDONED THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH, FOR ANOTHER CHURCH OR SECT.  The neglect of one's faith, even though complete, is not Apostasy.  It is also a highly legaized term used in the Roman Church to iclude any act which separates one from the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff.

Orthodoc


I have always believed the following definition to be that of "apostasy":

apostasy
A*pos"ta*sy, n.; pl. Apostasies. [OE. apostasie, F. apostasie, L. apostasia, fr. Gr. ? a standing off from, a defection, fr. ? to stand off, revolt; ? from + ? to stand. See Off and Stand.] An abandonment of what one has voluntarily professed; a total desertion of departure from one's faith, principles, or party; esp., the renunciation of a religious faith; as, Julian's apostasy from Christianity.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, -¬ 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


Note the word total, as well as the reference to Julian the Apostate.  

But we descend into the ridiculous word games again.  We must remember that we don't speak Greek or Latin or Slavonic every day, but English.  We should use her words as they are generally defined.

I'll shut up now.
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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2002, 12:11:30 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: bripat22
[/quote

Did you ever know the beloved Archbishop Joseph (Raya)??  I have never  known a better Eastern Christian HIerarch.  He is
 one of the greatest influences in drawing me to Orthodoxy.  I will never forget him giving the homily at my Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic parish in San Diego.  He exuded the holiness and ethos of the Eastern Church!!


No, Brian, I never did meet Archbishop Raya.  I think he was living at Madonna House in Combomere, Canada, at the time.  However, I was required to acquire my own copy of "Byzantine Daily Worship" which he co-authored with Baron Jose de Vinck, and I still sometimes use it to locate daily Troparia and Kontakia.  I happened to notice that even my OCA parish church owns a copy for use in the choir (Must be that three-bar cross on the cover!)!

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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2002, 12:14:04 PM »

Quote
And by that, the never-Catholic Orthodox is not schismatic but the Catholic to Orthodox is?  Very confusing since both the never-Orthodox and the convert both share the same beliefs and confess the same dogmas.  Sounds like sour grapes on the part of Rome in that she is annoyed to say the least that someone would actually reject her earthly teachings, of late, and boldly join the the original Christian church, something Rome herself rejected long ago.

Not confusing at all! The Catholic Church claims authority over its subjects, including those who quit - just like the Orthodox communion claims jurisdiction over its people and excommunicates people who quit. Fair's fair.

Quote
Canon 671 Section 1
Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments only to the Catholic Christian faithful, who likewise receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers.

Isn't there something like in Latin canon law that says (implicit: never-Catholic) Orthodox and other Easterns can receive too?

Quote
Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 333
Mandates that all priests celebrate Divine Liturgy daily if possible.

Not heretical but not Eastern either — gives it away as a document written by Romans for Eastern subjects.

You know, most born Orthodox don't care either way about this stuff - it's as irrelevant as the doings of the United Methodist Church.

Maybe this board, including me, really is 'Eastern Catholics and the Catholic-minded (and non-Catholics preoccupied for some reason with the Catholic Church) who also like Eastern Orthodoxy'. Not a judgement, just an observation.

Maybe it's because we're all Westerners — including our born Orthodox, and including those of us of non-Western heritage born in North America. In our homelands — the US, Canada, the UK — Catholic is THE big Church. Not so in places like Greece and Russia.

I'm really not offended when people think I'm Catholic. What's a personal insult is when someone hates me so much for whatever reason he or she denies me any standing as Eastern. I've been following this stuff for 15+ years and doing it for 10, and deserve some credit for that, even if one doesn't like me personally or doesn't like my views. Romans can be fine folks, but don't call me one. This isn't directed at anyone here specificallly but is an observation/complaint about some of the treatment I've got online, particularly over the past year.
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2002, 12:30:46 PM »

Quote
Maybe it's because we're all Westerners - including our born Orthodox, and including those of us of non-Western heritage born in North America. In our homelands - the US, Canada, the UK - Catholic is THE big Church. Not so in places like Greece and Russia

Serge, I couldn't agree more. Whether we like it or not, we are all infused with the western mindset. Instead of rejecting it as entirely evil, as some converts to Orthodoxy attempt to do, (stepping out on a limb here) I think we need to accomodate it, as it is a part of our American culture. Inheritantly, it has many problems and shortcomings, but in the end I think it will work out. That's why I can see the OCA really being the future of Orthodoxy in America.

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« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2002, 12:33:43 PM »

Bobby,

Thanks! And agreed: the OCA is the way of the future for American Orthodoxy.

Quote
rejecting it as entirely evil, as some converts to Orthodoxy attempt to do

IMO that's mentally and spiritually unhealthy and causes some of the convert neuroses displayed online. And also why sometimes Orthodox online come across as so arrogant, claiming exclusive rights to some spiritual truth that, if you take away the Greek or Russian name of the author of the quote being trotted out, is really no different to what Sister Mary Thomasina was teaching back in the 1950s.
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« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2002, 12:37:07 PM »

Quote
Quote
Canon 702
Catholic priests are FORBIDDEN to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

Makes sense.

Quote
Canon 703
A priest who is a stranger is not to be admitted to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, unless he shows the rector of the church a letter of recommendation from his own hierarch.

Makes sense.
>>

During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

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« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2002, 12:39:51 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Please close your quotations with the appropriate code: /quote enclosed by [ ].

Quote
During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

That didn't reflect what Catholicism teaches, then or now, and that priest deserved to be, and should have been, suspended.

Quote
And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

That's a gray area. I assume each bishop confirmed his own people so technically there might not have been anything wrong with it, but it sounds awfully confusing and would lead the simple faithful to think the two churches are really the same.
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« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2002, 12:44:35 PM »

[Patriarch L'ubomyr sure made it sound that way!

And to be fair, Rome doesn't judge never-Catholic Orthodox - the Pope has even said he doesn't call them schismatics.]

There is no such thing as a never Catholic Orthodox Serge.  Now who is using the word game?

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« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2002, 12:45:12 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Please close your quotations with the appropriate code: /quote enclosed by [ ].

Hypo-Ortho<<I tried, Serge, I tried!  I'm just not savvy enough to get it right!>>

Quote
During the hey-day of ecumenicalism at the college I had attended back in the 60's, the local RC priest who was in charge of the Newman Club concelebrated Mass with an Episcopal priest and a Lutheran pastor.  It was very fashionable and "hip" to do this at the  time.

Serge<<That didn't reflect what Catholicism teaches, then or now, and that priest deserved to be, and should have been, suspended.>>

Hypo-Ortho<<This is true, Serge.  But with the most ecumenically-minded RC bishop in the USA in charge at the time, he was only mildly reprimanded.  That didn't quite get to the papers.>>

Quote
And the local RC bishop served a "conjoint" sacramental Confirmation service with the Episcopal bishop too, but this happened only one time.  But it sure was splashed all over the local papers as an important first!

That's a gray area. I assume each bishop confirmed his own people so technically there might not have been anything wrong with it, but it sounds awfully confusing and would lead the simple faithful to think the two churches are really the same.

Yes, you're right.  The service took place in a RC church with each bishop confirming his own subjects.  The RC altar had actually been removed from the church for the service!!!

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« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2002, 12:48:48 PM »

Mr Tallick, you prove my point with your obsession with and envy of the capitalized word Catholic. None of the Russians I know share this preoccupation. We've defined for the purposes of this board what is meant by it (specifically, the administrators approved my suggestion of sticking to the common English meaning of the word) so do please stop wasting our time and bandwidth playing this game.
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« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2002, 01:27:42 PM »

[Mr Tallick, you prove my point with your obsession with and envy of the capitalized word Catholic. None of the Russians I know share this preoccupation. ]

Serge:  Can you, or any of the administrators, show me where the terminology NEVER Catholic Orthodox was approved?  
The title of this folder is Orthodox - Catholic (In Communion with Rome).  It is not Orthodox-Catholic.

It is still beyond my comprehension why anyone who professes loyality to the church of Rome and the Pope would have any problem being identified as Roman Catholic, Papal Catholic, or Catholic in Communion with Rome.  And come into an supposedly Orthodox Catholic website and demand exclusive rights to the word Catholic.

Thats all I have to say.  For I will continue to defend my Orthodox Catholic faith and its right to be identified as what it is - both Catholic and Apostolic.

What you insist on labeling obsession and envy is theological fact and truth.

Your starting to use the terminology Never Catholic Orthodox is a ploy to antagonize.

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« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2002, 02:00:10 PM »

I thought the administrators agreed that capitalized Catholic has its plain English meaning here.

Never-Catholic Orthodox isn't an insult; it's a fact unless last night the Orthodox communion submitted to the Pope and I haven't read about it yet.

Never-catholic Orthodox would be an insult.

Again, I don't understand this obsession with the word in capitalized form. To Russians, a -¦-¦-é-+-+-+-¦ is a non-Orthodox, a foreigner, often a Pole. I maintain it seems to be envy here.

Quote
It is still beyond my comprehension why anyone who professes loyality to the church of Rome and the Pope would have any problem being identified as Roman Catholic, Papal Catholic, or Catholic in Communion with Rome.

Or Eastern Catholic, or Byzantine Catholic, or just plain Catholic. I agree this is puzzling.
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« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2002, 02:02:03 PM »

Friends,

Just for clarification, in the Eastern Catholic Churches an excommunication must be imposed by one's hierarch except in the case of desecrating the Holy Gifts or raping a nun. So if an Eastern Catholic would publicly state he does not hold to article X of the Catholic faith technically his hierarch could excommunicate him but unless or until the hierarch does he is a member in good standing.  Of course some Ultramontane's would say by denying article X you become a heretic and therefore are excommunicated, but Ultramontane wishes do not make it so.

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« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2002, 02:04:12 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded; culturally Anglo-Saxon American; and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


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« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2002, 02:14:18 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded, culturally Anglo-Saxon American, and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


rtss Cry

Huh?  Whadidja just say to Serge?  And the majority of the members of this online community, rtss?  I'm half-Polish/half-Ukie and first-generation American on my mother's side.  My wife was born in L'viv.  I'm Ukrainian/Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic-turned-Orthodox--out of sincere conviction rather than continuing to be painfully afflicted with spiritual schizophrenia by being in the middle, neither fully one or the other--some 25 years ago at least.  Doesn't any of this count?

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« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2002, 02:19:25 PM »

My, aren't we a bit testy?  He did say "majority" and not all, and I don't think his comment was pointed at you in the least, Hypo.  Calm down a bit, please.  In fact, everyone calm down.  Bickering over semantics and ethnicity is just plain ridiculous over the Internet and in a Christian forum.
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« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2002, 02:22:53 PM »

My, aren't we a bit testy?  He did say "majority" and not all, and I don't think his comment was pointed at you in the least, Hypo.  Calm down a bit, please.  In fact, everyone calm down.  Bickering over semantics and ethnicity is just plain ridiculous over the Internet and in a Christian forum.  

Must be THAT time of the month!   Wink
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« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2002, 02:32:08 PM »

It seems to be THAT time of the month every day of the year when it comes to Internet forums of any stripe, my friend! Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2002, 02:37:53 PM »

It seems to be THAT time of the month every day of the year when it comes to Internet forums of any stripe, my friend! Smiley

You have a point, Schultz.   This forum started out sooooo friendly too, and I hoped it would stay that way, different from the bickering of other forums.  But it would appear that that couldn't last.  Maybe now we can pray a little, pause before posting, and get back on track.

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« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2002, 02:42:38 PM »

I really think the key is the pausing after reading and praying before typing.  Too many times we type something out before we've even thought about what our eyes have just read.  In all humility, I charge us all to "pause and pray".

Maybe we should make that into a bumper sticker...Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2002, 02:55:33 PM »

Even web boards have menstrual cycles.
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« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2002, 02:57:18 PM »

BTW Happy Josephat Feast Day
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« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2002, 02:59:43 PM »


Dear In Christ,

I have to intervene with several points.

First, If someone is angry with another poster and thinks that person needs to stop posting on the subject, please refer it to me, Bobby, or Phil by reporting the post.

Second, telling Serge that he is not "Russian" is silly because Serge has never claimed to be Russian.  Serge has made it clear that he enjoys interacting with Russians and posted an anecdote from his experience with them to back up his point.  If you disagree, then by all means please respond in a NON PERSONAL way.

Third, bickering is going to happen.  We live in a fallen world.  Just follow the other posters' suggestion and pray before typing. Pray again before hitting send!

Fourth, I am looking for where we defined the terms previously.  Mor Ephrem, if you have it, please post a link.  Basically, our position is that yes, Catholic in common parlance refers to Roman Catholics. HOWEVER, if I recall correctly, we requested that for clarity, and in order not to infringe on Eastern Orthodox-Catholics' right to the term Catholic, that we distinguish between Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Eastern Catholics.

I will review the events here later tonight and make a further assesment.  I have to go to class now!!! :-)

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« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2002, 03:24:58 PM »

Second, telling Serge that he is not "Russian" is silly because Serge has never claimed to be Russian.  Serge has made it clear that he enjoys interacting with Russians and posted an anecdote from his experience with them to back up his point.  If you disagree, then by all means please respond in a NON PERSONAL way.

What I found particularly discouraging in Emmaus' reply was not so much telling Serge he wasn't Russian (because he isn't and never claimed to be!) as much as it was the implication I perceived that Russian and Orthodox were one and the same thing; as if to be a good Orthodox, one needed to be Russian or *Russian* Orthodox.  That's silly.      

Third, bickering is going to happen.  We live in a fallen world.  Just follow the other posters' suggestion and pray before typing. Pray again before hitting send!

I agree wholeheartedly with Anastasios and Schultz.  

Fourth, I am looking for where we defined the terms previously.  Mor Ephrem, if you have it, please post a link.

Sure.  Reply no. 19 on this page: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=151;start=15

Basically, our position is that yes, Catholic in common parlance refers to Roman Catholics. HOWEVER, if I recall correctly, we requested that for clarity, and in order not to infringe on Eastern Orthodox-Catholics' right to the term Catholic, that we distinguish between Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Eastern Catholics.

What I actually wrote was that, in the English language, Catholic refers to those Christians under/in communion with the Pope.  To say this does not deny the Catholicity of the Orthodox; it is just a concession to common usage.  For clarity, however, one is encouraged to write out Roman or Byzantine or Armenian or whatever Catholic.  "Catholics in communion with Rome", "Papal Catholic", and things like that sound redundant with this definition, and shouldn't be used, as the terms set forth are already clear enough.  

Orthodox Christians are always allowed to call themselves "Orthodox Catholics" or "Greek Orthodox Catholics" or "Ethiopian Orthodox Catholics" or whatever, because they are "Catholic".  The thing that started this whole name problem in the first place, if I recall correctly, was the insistence of one or more Orthodox Catholics on calling themselves simply Catholics.  This is confusing to those used to the English language, and the bickering that ensued about the right of the Orthodox to use that term was just silly.  No one denied that the Orthodox are Catholic, but to simply call oneself a Catholic would be confusing.
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« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2002, 03:30:29 PM »

"Catholics in communion with Rome", "Papal Catholic", and things like that sound redundant with this definition, and shouldn't be used, as the terms set forth are already clear enough.

If those terms should not be used, then why is this forum called "Orthodox-Catholic (in Communion with Rome) Discussion"? God Bless!
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« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2002, 03:38:14 PM »

Because some may not see the hyphen for what it is...a separation of Orthodox (Catholics) and (Roman and Eastern) Catholics.  They may see it as simply "Orthodox Catholic".  But since the intent is the former, we have inserted the expression in parenthesis.  But in common speech, no one takes the effort to say "Catholics in communion with Rome" or "Papal Catholics" because the common use of that word is understood by all.
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« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2002, 03:51:16 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded, culturally Anglo-Saxon American, and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


rtss Cry

Huh?  Whadidja just say to Serge?  And the majority of the members of this online community, rtss?  I'm half-Polish/half-Ukie and first-generation American on my mother's side.  My wife was born in L'viv.  I'm Ukrainian/Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic-turned-Orthodox--out of sincere conviction rather than continuing to be painfully afflicted with spiritual schizophrenia by being in the middle, neither fully one or the other--some 25 years ago at least.  Doesn't any of this count?

Hypo-Ortho

Sorry I upset you, but this is--more or less--a "tongue and cheek site."

Who takes it seriously, as an Orthodox Christian site?

It looks like I also rubbed salt into open wounds.

Take care.

rtss  Huh
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« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2002, 04:03:02 PM »

[The thing that started this whole name problem in the first place, if I recall correctly, was the insistence of one or more Orthodox Catholics on calling themselves simply Catholics. ]

Thats not how it started at all.  Not one Orthodox Catholic on this board had ever insisted on identifying themselves as simply Catholics.  Including myself.  What we did object to, and still do, is having  the Roman Church use the term  exclusively for themselves.  I, nor anyone  want to deprive them of their Catholic identity.   However, we demand the same right for ourselves.  For it implies that some where along the way we left the Catholic and Apostolic Church we profess belief in every time we say the Creed.

What the hell is so redundent about putting an indentifying word in front of the word Catholic?  We as Orthodox Christians have a legal, moral, and theological right to define ourselves as Catholics.  It's as simple as that.

If this is truly and Orthodox Catholic site then why should we be forced to accept Roman Catholic definitions?  

It still amazes me how some one can profess love and loyality to the Roman Church and its Pope and then claim it is either redundant or insulting to identified with either that Church or its leader when defining their Catholicity.  

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« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2002, 04:18:47 PM »

Serge,  

If it helps, I have never thought of you as an 'Orthodox' Christian out of conviction--in the sense of the martyrs and saints--but by default. For certain, you are very Catholic-minded, culturally Anglo-Saxon American, and no fair- minded person would ever accuse you of having an Orthodox mindset.

And you certainly are not Russian...not even close.

I also believe all of the above applies to the majority of the members of this online community, which begs the question......?


rtss Cry

Huh?  Whadidja just say to Serge?  And the majority of the members of this online community, rtss?  I'm half-Polish/half-Ukie and first-generation American on my mother's side.  My wife was born in L'viv.  I'm Ukrainian/Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic-turned-Orthodox--out of sincere conviction rather than continuing to be painfully afflicted with spiritual schizophrenia by being in the middle, neither fully one or the other--some 25 years ago at least.  Doesn't any of this count?

Hypo-Ortho

Sorry I upset you, but this is--more or less--a "tongue and cheek site."

Who takes it seriously, as an Orthodox Christian site?

It looks like I also rubbed salt into open wounds.

Take care.

rtss  Huh

Rtss,

Suggestions as to how we can make this site serious? And less "tongue in cheek"?

Thanks,

Bobby
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« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2002, 04:20:18 PM »

It amazes you just as much as it amazes others that the use of a mere social convention agreed upon by the vast majority of society can upset you so much.  

Welcome to the real world.  Isn't it different?
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« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2002, 04:21:24 PM »


Just read some of the threads today.  Where both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic Canons were quoted.
This is a perfect example of how different Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics see things.

According to Roman Catholic beliefs - If a person either rejects the authority of the Pope or any of the dogma he proclaims, protects, and upholds then he ceases being a Catholic and is excommunicated.

According to Orthodox Catholic beliefs - If a Roman Catholic  rejects Papal authority and dogma to become an Orthodox Catholic, he has not left the Catholic Church but has joined a more ancient branch of it.  He has fulfilled his Catholicity by believing that which was believed by the majority of Christians when the Church was still basically whole.  

If we are, for the sake of being PC going to use either RC terminology or western standards..... than this is not the Orthodox Catholic web site it claims to be.  It's as simple as that.

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« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2002, 04:36:37 PM »

Orthodoc,

If someonesay, a tourist, asked you where the "nearest Catholic church" was,  where would you point them to?  Or would you point them anywhere at all and rather go into a semantic argument on them because this person is trying to usurp your catholicity by meaning "Roman Catholic" when he says "Catholic church".

We are not in Turkey, nor are we in Russia or Ukraine or in the East.  We are in the West, indeed "THE" West.  And here in the West, when one says "Catholic", one means "Roman Catholic".  No one is trying to take away the catholicity of your Church by saying so, especially none of us here.  For the sake of peace, please, brother, let it drop.  Does it really shake the foundations of your faith that much, if at all?
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« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2002, 05:06:56 PM »

If someonesay, a tourist, asked you where the "nearest Catholic church" was, where would you point them to? Or would you point them anywhere at all and rather go into a semantic argument on them because this person is trying to usurp your catholicity by meaning "Roman Catholic" when he says "Catholic church".]

I get so tired of answering this Roman Catholic response.
And if I asked those same people if they are Roman Catholic, those that are, would answer yes without hesitation  rather than  than getting insulted and answering -  'No, we are simply Catholics'.  So, what is your point exactly?

If you ask those same people if either the Mormon Church or the Church of Scientology are Christians 99% would answer yes because they have the word Church in their title.  Based on that, do you believe Mormons or Church of Scientology are Christians because the vast majority of people would answer yes?
   
[ Does it really shake the foundations of your faith that much, if at all?]

It most certainly does.  More than you as a Roman Catholic can fully understand.  It is terminology that has been used against my church by the RCC for centuries  by falsely  teaching that those of us who  identify ourselves as Orthodox separated ourselves from the Pope and the Catholic Church.   

You have stated that you are in this forum as a Roman Catholic to learn.   Then by all means do so.  If there is a thread you either don't like or don't agree with then by all means don't read it or access  it.  But please don't  bring your standards as a Roman Catholic in here and either complain or try and enforce them on us.

Orthodoc
   
   
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« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2002, 05:17:30 PM »

Orthodoc,

I cannot enforce anything.  I have no authority to do so.  Nor am I the one complaining.  You seem to be the one complaining at the drop of a hat whenever anyone uses the term "Catholic" to describe anything other than your own narrow definition.  But of course, what do I know?  I'm just a stupid Roman Catholic; how nice of you to throw that back in my face, particularly when it has little to do with the discussion.  My Evangelical future-father-in-law, who has no love for the Roman Church (happy?), would say the same thing I just said regarding the use of the word "Catholic".

And, my friend, it is difficult to learn when the only thing discussed is your pre-occupation with one single word.  The only other thread with any posts involves "Orthodox vs. orthodox".  Again with the words.  The only thing I seem to learn here is that after 1000 years, East and West still can't come to a single language to discuss their differences, even when they both speak the same language, presumably.  If a single social convention can shake the foundations of your faith, then you need to get off the damned computer and pray some more.  I'm sorry if I offend you or anyone else by that statement, but that's how I see it.

Maybe it's time I did that as well.
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« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2002, 05:29:13 PM »


According to Orthodox Catholic beliefs - If a Roman Catholic  rejects Papal authority and dogma to become an Orthodox Catholic, he has not left the Catholic Church but has joined a more ancient branch of it.  He has fulfilled his Catholicity by believing that which was believed by the majority of Christians when the Church was still basically whole.  

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

That is a totally faulty analogy.

You argue that:

A. If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Roman Church views him as a heretic.
B. If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Orthodox (Catholic) Church views him as coming to the truth.

Therefore, in your conclusion, there is a big difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics.

Your analogy is faulty because a true analogy would be:

If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Roman Church views him as a heretic.

If an Orthodox Catholic rejects Orthodox teaching, the Orthodox Church views him as a heretic.

The teaching is exactly the same.

In Christ,

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« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2002, 05:35:18 PM »

What I actually wrote was that, in the English language, Catholic refers to those Christians under/in communion with the Pope.  To say this does not deny the Catholicity of the Orthodox; it is just a concession to common usage.  For clarity, however, one is encouraged to write out Roman or Byzantine or Armenian or whatever Catholic.  "Catholics in communion with Rome", "Papal Catholic", and things like that sound redundant with this definition, and shouldn't be used, as the terms set forth are already clear enough.  


Orthodox Christians are always allowed to call themselves "Orthodox Catholics" or "Greek Orthodox Catholics" or "Ethiopian Orthodox Catholics" or whatever, because they are "Catholic".  The thing that started this whole name problem in the first place, if I recall correctly, was the insistence of one or more Orthodox Catholics on calling themselves simply Catholics.  This is confusing to those used to the English language, and the bickering that ensued about the right of the Orthodox to use that term was just silly.  No one denied that the Orthodox are Catholic, but to simply call oneself a Catholic would be confusing.  

I agree with Phil but I'd like to remind him that the reason that the forum is called the "Orthodox-Catholic (in Communion with Rome) Forum" is a concession to Orthodoc *personally* so that everyone is clear on who is who.

I'd also like to let Orthodoc know personally that his comments about people "forcing" him to use terminology and therefore this "maybe not being the board it claims to be" are not appreciated, especially since the Forum name was specifically created in response to his request, and because no one is forcing him to use any term, but merely responding to his insistance on using his terms (You have the right to use your terms, and people have the right to argue with you for using the terms!), and because he is already this quickly questioning the board as being false to its mission statement.

In Christ,

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« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2002, 05:51:37 PM »

If you did the cabbie experiment in New York with this semantic game, if you asked for the biggest Catholic church you'd end up at St Patrick's. Not St Nicholas, not Pokrova, not 'Synod' (ROCOR HQ), not the Greeks. The biggest Orthodox church? You'd wind up at a synagogue somewhere, maybe in Brooklyn. In the unlikely event the cabbie did have some idea what you really meant, you could end up anywhere from a Ukrainian Catholic church in the East Village to St Vartan's Armenian Cathedral. Apostolic? Either the cabbie would have no idea what you're talking about, or, if he's black, you'd probably end up in Harlem at some Protestant establishment.

I've written before (sigh) that I have no problem with people writing Orthodox Catholic or Oriental Orthodox here - the capitalized qualifiers make it clear to this informed readership what the writer means.

Mor Ephrem has posted the link to the rules and they're fair.
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« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2002, 06:04:34 PM »

Let's wrap it up, please.

The chronic fixation on terminology omnipresent in the entire board can best be summed up so.

(tongue in cheek, audience)

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« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2002, 06:14:33 PM »

[A. If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Roman Church views him as a heretic.
B. If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Orthodox (Catholic) Church views him as coming to the truth.]

Anastasios:  b. Is not what I said at all.  What I said was  (from my post) -

According to Orthodox Catholic beliefs - If a Roman Catholic  rejects Papal authority and dogma to become an Orthodox Catholic, he has not left the Catholic Church but has joined a more ancient branch of it.  He has fulfilled his Catholicity by believing that which was believed by the majority of Christians when the Church was still basically whole.  

The implication is not on truth but on the fact that he has not given up is Catholicity he has just reverted to a more ancient forum.  That is the whole point of the post.

[If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Roman Church views him as a heretic.

If an Orthodox Catholic rejects Orthodox teaching, the Orthodox Church views him as a heretic.]

We are not discussing who is or who isn't a heretic here.  We are discussing who is or who isn't a Catholic.  
I don't understand your response at all Anastasios.

[Therefore, in your conclusion, there is a big difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics.]

In my opinion, and the opinion of most Orthodox Catholics I know, there is Anastasios.


[I'd also like to let Orthodoc know personally that his comments about people "forcing" him to use terminology and therefore this "maybe not being the board it claims to be" are not appreciated, ]

What I said was -

If we are, for the sake of being PC going to use either RC terminology or western standards..... than this is not the Orthodox Catholic web site it claims to be.  It's as simple as that.
Where do I say I being forced to do anything?  I will continue to identify myself by what I am...an Orthodox Catholic.  Other Catholics will be either 'Roman' or Eastern'.

Orthodoc






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« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2002, 07:30:49 PM »

[The implication is not on truth but on the fact that he has not given up is Catholicity he has just reverted to a more ancient forum.  That is the whole point of the post.]

Right, but that's not the implication I got from reading the post. You pitted Roman Catholics against Orthodox based on their views of a Roman Catholic who has rejected Roman teachings.

[If a Roman Catholic rejects Roman teaching, the Roman Church views him as a heretic.

If an Orthodox Catholic rejects Orthodox teaching, the Orthodox Church views him as a heretic.]

We are not discussing who is or who isn't a heretic here.  We are discussing who is or who isn't a Catholic.  
I don't understand your response at all Anastasios.

I'm sorry, but I totally don't understand your post then.

[In my opinion, and the opinion of most Orthodox Catholics I know, there is Anastasios.]

Right, there is a difference, Orthodoc, but we are talking about the conclusion reached from your analogy, not about whether in general there is a difference.

[What I said was -

If we are, for the sake of being PC going to use either RC terminology or western standards..... than this is not the Orthodox Catholic web site it claims to be.  It's as simple as that.
Where do I say I being forced to do anything?  I will continue to identify myself by what I am...an Orthodox Catholic.  Other Catholics will be either 'Roman' or Eastern'.

Orthodoc]

The implication is that you WILL be forced to use the terms, and that by so doing, this board will not be Orthodox.  I am saying no one is going to be compelled to use any term they don't want to, but that will have to defend their use or non use of whatever term they employ.

Sorry Orthodoc if we are talking past each other.  I just got very confused with the analogy.

In Christ,

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« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2002, 07:36:44 PM »

Is purgatory a dogma?  I didn't think it was.

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« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2002, 07:40:49 PM »

Orthodoc,

"Are the Eastern Catholics being faithful to the teachings of  Scripture when claim to accept Orthodox theology while recognizing as their earthy head a bishop who proclaims, protects, and upholds a different theology?  What about  I Corinthians 1:10 Dan -

I Corinthians 1:10:  [Caps are mine to emphasize)  Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, and that there be no divisions among you, BUT THAT YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGEMENT."

**Of course.**

Dan Lauffer

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« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2002, 07:41:38 PM »

  Dear friends,

I am locking this thread.  My reason for doing so is that it has got wild and wandered far from its original intent.

Some people have posted posts waiting for an answer, or have posted something specific that could be furthered in constructive dialogue.  So I invite whoever wishes to open a new thread IF it the subject has a specific intent/purpose.  Two examples are: if Orthodoc wishes to discuss his analogy with me further, he may respond in a new thread, or if someone else wants to address Dan Lauffer's last post on purgatory, let him do it in a new thread.

Thanks for your cooperation!  I enjoyed this exciting thread even though it got a little out of hand!

In Christ,

anastasios
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