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Author Topic: EO and RC intercommunion  (Read 3763 times) Average Rating: 0
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Karamazov
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« on: December 03, 2003, 07:03:54 PM »

About a year back, I attended a funeral mass in an RC church.  During the mass, I decided to search through the official prayer book to see if the RCs made a statement regarding intercommunion.  I was curious because with so many in attendance, I thought there was no way the priest could know for sure whether all who headed for communion would be RC.  Sure enough, the statement was there:  one had to be RC, or no communion.  But, to my surprise, it mentioned that Eastern Orthodox would also be communed, but that as Eastern Orthodox one should check with one's parish priest? about the acceptability of communing with the RCs.  A little sketchy on the details here...

Anyway, here's my point.  Does this statement on intercommunion, found in an official RC publication, mean that the RCs consider the Eastern Orthodox to be in communion, despite what the EOs believe?  Has anyone else come across this sort of statement by the RCs? Huh
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The Caffeinator
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2003, 07:09:46 PM »

IIRC, EOx were not mentioned in churches in communion with Rome. I believe the Polish National Church was, but with EOx, I think it must be qualified by necessity or duress.
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Karamazov
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2003, 07:22:42 PM »

IIRC, EOx were not mentioned in churches in communion with Rome. I believe the Polish National Church was, but with EOx, I think it must be qualified by necessity or duress.

I've never , ever even heard necessity or duress...And clergy/seminarians?

I DO know of Catholic priests who tel EOs it is OK to commune...AND I just as firmly say no, it IS NOT....maybe in YOUR books, but not according to ORTHODOXY!!!! :cwm13:

Vicki, your thoughts are just as cynical as my own! Grin   When I first read the little blurb in the RC worship book, I knee-jerked and thought "What is this?!?!?  Some kind of a trap?!?!?  Fooling EOs into excommunicating themselves, and fooling RCs into believing that they are Orthodox."
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The Caffeinator
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2003, 07:24:51 PM »

Quote
For Catholics
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.

For Other Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 -º 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º 3). For Those Not Receiving Communion
All who are not receiving Holy Communion are encouraged to express in their hearts a prayerful desire for unity with the Lord Jesus and with one another.

For Non-Christians
We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family.
emphasis mine
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The Caffeinator
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2003, 07:26:37 PM »

I would remind you that these directives come from the USCCB. A more unsavory bunch you couldn't find in a navy brig.
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Karamazov
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2003, 07:28:41 PM »

Yes!  That's EXACTLY what I read!  I keyed-in on the "According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches " part.
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Jakub
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2003, 07:30:03 PM »

From the CCC:


The Eucharist and the unity of Christians:

1399: The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all- by apostolic succession- the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy". A certain communion "in sacris", and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged".

james
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2003, 07:32:22 PM »

From the CCC:


The Eucharist and the unity of Christians:

1399: The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all- by apostolic succession- the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy". A certain communion "in sacris", and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged".

james

Bummer....
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Jakub
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2003, 07:36:44 PM »

Don't shoot the messenger !!!

Glad there are none of these restrictions at the local watering hole.

james
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2003, 08:58:07 PM »

BTW, forgot to thank you profusely for the exerpt from the RC thing, Caffeine-man.  Where did you find it?  Is it on-line?  Thought I only dreamed it up!
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The Caffeinator
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2003, 09:27:24 PM »

No problem.

I found it at http://www.usccb.org, the website for the American Bishops. I don't remember exactly where on the website I found it, but I did a keyword search on "the Eucharist and other Christians."
 IIRC I found it on a page on directives for publication of missals for the Committee for Liturgy.

Sorry, I should have hyperlinked it. (Still waiting for windows to come out with a cut and paste clipboard for surfing the net. Smiley )
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Karamazov
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2003, 09:30:55 PM »

Thanks again, caffeine-dude (can I call you caffeine-dude?)
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2003, 10:22:23 PM »

If it is said with charity, I don't mind.  Smiley
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Linus7
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2003, 10:57:48 PM »

I think we should keep in mind that this is an Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum.

We should avoid the anti-Roman Catholic rhetoric, which in my view is unnecessary and just plain wrong.

Apostolic Christians suffer because of this sin-caused schism. Why say things to perpetuate and exacerbate it?
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2003, 11:16:06 PM »

I think we should keep in mind that this is an Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum.

We should avoid the anti-Roman Catholic rhetoric, which in my view is unnecessary and just plain wrong.

Apostolic Christians suffer because of this sin-caused schism. Why say things to perpetuate and exacerbate it?

My comment, to clarify, Linus, referred only to his EXPRESSION, not to those he applied it to...so that is clear...but any earlier statement I made stands... RCs SHOULD NOT STATE it is OK for EOs to commune in their churches...it isn't.  I say that in charity, and it isn't anti-RC to say so. I respect other churches positions, as regards their ability to instruct their faithful as they see fit.  Their priests should not try to tell those holding other beliefs that it is OK to bypass those beliefs, and that Rome is more welcoming.  IS OUTRAGE!  Grin

Well, I was referring to the comment about U.S. RC bishops.

BTW, if you note, the document to which you refer says:

4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º (Underlining mine).

Notice the "are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches" part.

It is not as if the RCC has set a trap for unsuspecting Orthodox. For their part, RCs consider Orthodox to be Catholic Christians, entitled by faith and baptism to the sacraments.

Nevertheless, their communion document urges the Orthodox to "respect the discipline of their own churches."

That's an "outrage"?
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Linus7
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 11:31:34 PM »

I think we should keep in mind that this is an Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum.

We should avoid the anti-Roman Catholic rhetoric, which in my view is unnecessary and just plain wrong.

Apostolic Christians suffer because of this sin-caused schism. Why say things to perpetuate and exacerbate it?

My comment, to clarify, Linus, referred only to his EXPRESSION, not to those he applied it to...so that is clear...but any earlier statement I made stands... RCs SHOULD NOT STATE it is OK for EOs to commune in their churches...it isn't.  I say that in charity, and it isn't anti-RC to say so. I respect other churches positions, as regards their ability to instruct their faithful as they see fit.  Their priests should not try to tell those holding other beliefs that it is OK to bypass those beliefs, and that Rome is more welcoming.  IS OUTRAGE!  Grin

Well, I was referring to the comment about U.S. RC bishops.

BTW, if you note, the document to which you refer says:

4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 -º (Underlining mine).

Notice the "are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches" part.

It is not as if the RCC has set a trap for unsuspecting Orthodox. For their part, RCs consider Orthodox to be Catholic Christians, entitled by faith and baptism to the sacraments.

Nevertheless, their communion document urges the Orthodox to "respect the discipline of their own churches."

That's an "outrage"?

I've HEARD priests do it...with NO respect to written document...they SAY it...My earlier post references that.  I do not refer to a document, others do.

If you read the OP and follow this thread, it seems to be all about that RC communion document, which is pretty clear.

If some RC priests invite Orthodox to commune then it is up to those Orthodox to know enough about their own Church not to accept.

I don't see it as an "outrage," however. I see it as a sincere offer based upon the RC understanding of ecclesiology. If our understanding is somewhat different, they've allowed for that in their document by urging us to respect our own discipline.
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2003, 11:40:45 PM »

I think Linus is right on this one.
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Karamazov
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2003, 11:48:48 PM »

So, back to my point, then.  Is the RC view that the EOs are IN COMMUNION with Rome (hence the willingness to commune them)?
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2003, 12:13:33 AM »

So, back to my point, then.  Is the RC view that the EOs are IN COMMUNION with Rome (hence the willingness to commune them)?

Well, here's what the CCC says:

838    " The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2003, 12:19:35 AM »

Thanks, Linus (can I call you Linus?) Grin
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2003, 12:21:31 AM »

Thanks, Linus (can I call you Linus?) Grin

Of course, my Cossack brother!

You are welcome, too, BTW.
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2003, 08:09:06 AM »

Apologies for my "anti-Catholicism," Linus, and I appreciate your point of view and even agree! (re: intercommunion)

However, being Catholic, I tend to think of it more as anti-clericalism. Mea culpa!
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2003, 09:33:58 AM »

When I first read the little blurb in the RC worship book, I knee-jerked and thought "What is this?!?!?  Some kind of a trap?!?!?  Fooling EOs into excommunicating themselves, and fooling RCs into believing that they are Orthodox."  

So what do you think would happen if you did? On Judgement Day would you be taken aside and told "You know, you would have been granted entrance into Paradise if it just wasn't for that 'taking communion in a non-Orthodox church' incident. Oh well, sucks to be you -- off to hell you go!"



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Karamazov
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2003, 09:49:06 AM »

When I first read the little blurb in the RC worship book, I knee-jerked and thought "What is this?!?!?  Some kind of a trap?!?!?  Fooling EOs into excommunicating themselves, and fooling RCs into believing that they are Orthodox."  

So what do you think would happen if you did? On Judgement Day would you be taken aside and told "You know, you would have been granted entrance into Paradise if it just wasn't for that 'taking communion in a non-Orthodox church' incident. Oh well, sucks to be you -- off to hell you go!"

No, Tom, I'm not than naive or legalistic in my view toward my faith.  Grace is from God, who administers according to His will.  I would confess and be penitent, which is what we should all do when we fall.



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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2003, 10:46:26 AM »

When I first read the little blurb in the RC worship book, I knee-jerked and thought "What is this?!?!?  Some kind of a trap?!?!?  Fooling EOs into excommunicating themselves, and fooling RCs into believing that they are Orthodox."  

So what do you think would happen if you did? On Judgement Day would you be taken aside and told "You know, you would have been granted entrance into Paradise if it just wasn't for that 'taking communion in a non-Orthodox church' incident. Oh well, sucks to be you -- off to hell you go!"

No, Tom, I'm not than naive or legalistic in my view toward my faith.  Grace is from God, who administers according to His will.  I would confess and be penitent, which is what we should all do when we fall.

Good to hear. I see too many Orthodox becoming way to legalistic.
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Karamazov
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2003, 05:07:44 PM »

Quote
838    " The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."


Quote
but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety
- This tells me that the RCs do not think EOs are entirely catholic.

Quote
or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter
- This tells me that the RCs think other Christians must be under Rome.

Quote
put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
- This is bureaucratic bafflegab.  (I mean, can someone be pregnant in a certain, although imperfect way?)

Quote
With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.
- This tells me that the RCs do not think the EOs are in posession of the "fullness" of the faith.  What "little" are the EOs lacking?  Sounds to me that, from an RC perspective, the little bit of fullness the EOs lack is their unwillingness to come under the Pope of Rome.

How am I doing so far?  Am I reading this correctly? Kiss
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