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Author Topic: Consubstantiation  (Read 10047 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2009, 12:55:58 AM »

Just to point out in Samkim's defense--while many of us are aware of deusveritas' path, if you simply go by his current profile which samkim pointed too, it says that he is an 'inquirer'. There's no reference to his past EO membership; and he's explicitly not OO (as in a communicating member of a church) yet.

I was commenting on the fact that he's an inquirer.
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« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2009, 01:11:53 AM »

According to his Myspace, he's Catholic, but he hasn't been on there since June, so that might be out of date. And I don't think it should really be much of a factor anyway. Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2009, 09:18:22 AM »

Deusveritasest,
'transmutation' is the the most frequent translation of Greek word "metabolé" used as a synonim for transubstantiation before the Synod of Jerusalem. Similar words such as trans-elementation (metastoicheiosis) can also be used under the same meaning.

You have misunderstood my previous post. The holy gifts can REMAIN Christ's body and blood when unworthily eated by a weaked person, but the wicked will experience only the proper effects of bread and wine (physical nourishment) but not the spiritual effects of Christ's body and blood (spiritual nourishment). For the body, if you eat bread or meat it's the same: you're still eating and replenishing your stomach. Also, the fact that you don't receive the holy species with the conscience that they are Christ's body and blood, you are committing a sacrilege because your consuming human flesh and blood as food for your body, and not Christ as food for your soul. It's the attitude that makes the sacrament effective for one's life. If a person with no real faith in Christ's work of redemption is baptised for some personal convenience, is the baptism effective or not? If one receives Holy Myron but doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit which is communicating through it, will the person be guided by the Paraclete or will he remain alone in the darkness of his heart exactly as he was before? In like manner, an unworthy reception of the Eucharist is not only useless and ineffective for one's spiritual growth, but can even become detrimental in God's sight providing a condemnation, because receiving the Eucharist with a false faith means bearing false witness, trying to joke God and his Church.

I hope I've been clearer now.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2009, 03:08:50 PM »

Forgive me for any maliciousness. I was really annoyed with many things last night. Also, just to be clear, I believe Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox, and I wait eagerly for fuller communion between our Churches.
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« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2009, 04:40:32 PM »

It's OK.  We're cool.  I was being snippy myself and jumping to conclusions.  Forgive me. 
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« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2009, 05:00:55 PM »

Page 63 (pdf 68) of this book has a section on "the nature of the change". Mostly dealing with why we don't accept transubstantiation, but it has some information that may help you.

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf
Is there any way to let the author know that he has grossly misrepresented the Catholic teaching on Transubstantiation?  The Catholic teaching does not teach that the bread and wine physically turn into the Body and Blood of Christ. 

Blessings


How do you explain Lanciano then?  The very idea of transubstantiation includes a sense of physical presence unless you follow the modern theologians like Karl Rahner or Edward Shillebeex who say that the Eucharist is a sign of the body of Christ.  Here is a link that mentions it being physical from EWTN.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/MODMISC.TXT
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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2009, 07:25:27 PM »

Page 63 (pdf 68) of this book has a section on "the nature of the change". Mostly dealing with why we don't accept transubstantiation, but it has some information that may help you.

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf
Is there any way to let the author know that he has grossly misrepresented the Catholic teaching on Transubstantiation?  The Catholic teaching does not teach that the bread and wine physically turn into the Body and Blood of Christ. 

Blessings


How do you explain Lanciano then?  The very idea of transubstantiation includes a sense of physical presence unless you follow the modern theologians like Karl Rahner or Edward Shillebeex who say that the Eucharist is a sign of the body of Christ.  Here is a link that mentions it being physical from EWTN.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/MODMISC.TXT
We really should start a thread on this in the Orthodox-Catholic subforum.
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2009, 07:27:32 PM »

Is it accurate and correct to say that the Orthodox believe in Consubstantiation. 

I've often asked myself this question...

When some Orthodox priests try and explain our view of transmutation, it ends up sounding a lot like consubstantiation. However, consubstantiation and the Lutheran view of "in, with, and under" are explicitly rejected in several formal declarations and catechisms written from about the 17th c. and onward. See Fr. Pomazansky's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology."

Said catechisms appearing after the fall of Constantinople are not viewed with much authority.

Says you, a person who is not even Orthodox.

Pardon? What do you mean by that?

They are not viewed with much authority by who? You can't possibly claim to speak for the entire Orthodox Church.

No, I was asking what you meant when you said that I'm "not even Orthodox"?

According to your member profile, you are not Orthodox. It seems improper that you should point out what Orthodox find authoritative and what they do not.

How does my member profile indicate that I am not Orthodox?
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2009, 07:29:43 PM »


Just to point out in Samkim's defense--while many of us are aware of deusveritas' path, if you simply go by his current profile which samkim pointed too, it says that he is an 'inquirer'. There's no reference to his past EO membership; and he's explicitly not OO (as in a communicating member of a church) yet.

It still involves quite an assumption that because I'm inquiring Oriental Orthodoxy that I'm not Orthodox.
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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2009, 07:30:33 PM »

Just to point out in Samkim's defense--while many of us are aware of deusveritas' path, if you simply go by his current profile which samkim pointed too, it says that he is an 'inquirer'. There's no reference to his past EO membership; and he's explicitly not OO (as in a communicating member of a church) yet.

I was commenting on the fact that he's an inquirer.

I was Baptized and Chrismated in the GOAA on April 26, 2008.
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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2009, 07:31:32 PM »


According to his Myspace, he's Catholic, but he hasn't been on there since June, so that might be out of date. And I don't think it should really be much of a factor anyway. Smiley

Seeing as how there is no "Orthodox", "Eastern Orthodox", or "Oriental Orthodox" option on Myspace, I put Catholic indicating Orthodox Catholic.
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2009, 07:34:19 PM »


The holy gifts can REMAIN Christ's body and blood when unworthily eated by a weaked person,

Only if consubstantiation is true. Otherwise, the transformation of the elements is complete at the end of the epiclesis, significantly before anyone receives the Gifts.
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2009, 07:35:47 PM »


Forgive me for any maliciousness. I was really annoyed with many things last night. Also, just to be clear, I believe Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox, and I wait eagerly for fuller communion between our Churches.

No, Salpy said that the only way I would not be Orthodox is if the Eastern Orthodox are not Orthodox, because the EOC is the group that I am actually a sacramentally intiated member in (though I haven't partaken of Communion since I started considering OOy).
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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2009, 07:48:55 PM »

No, Salpy said that the only way I would not be Orthodox is if the Eastern Orthodox are not Orthodox, because the EOC is the group that I am actually a sacramentally intiated member in (though I haven't partaken of Communion since I started considering OOy).
In that case, I think Salpy is wrong. If you are not in Communion with either the Eastern or Oriental Churches, how are you "Orthodox"?
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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2009, 07:59:02 PM »

No, Salpy said that the only way I would not be Orthodox is if the Eastern Orthodox are not Orthodox, because the EOC is the group that I am actually a sacramentally intiated member in (though I haven't partaken of Communion since I started considering OOy).
In that case, I think Salpy is wrong. If you are not in Communion with either the Eastern or Oriental Churches, how are you "Orthodox"?

The only place I have taken Communion since my Baptism has been in an EO church. I have taken a break from taking Communion anywhere for a few months now because of this issue.

So, whether or not I am in communion with either church is rather up for debate. For instance, if I were to go to an Armenian church right now, they would (officially I believe) admit me to Communion. If I were to go back to the OCA church I transferred to a little bit after I was Baptized, I would also be admitted, probably only after an administering of Confession.
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« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2009, 08:07:15 PM »

See, I think this is an related issue to this thread, deusveritasest.
A Christian doesn't "take a break" from Communing in the Body of Christ, except when under excommunication. Communion is what defines us a Christians ("unless you eat the Flesh...."), and there is no point in claiming to be "Orthodox" if we are not Christians.
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« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2009, 08:36:06 PM »

As we like to say here in California, "Don't judge."

Whether Deusveritasest is Orthodox is not the subject of this thread.  I think the subject is supposed to be whether the OO's believe in Consubstantiation, whatever that is.  Let's please keep on that topic.

If someone wants to discuss Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation in the context of the Catholic or EO Church, that belongs in another forum.  Whether or not someone is still Orthodox if they haven't taken Communion for a while is also the topic of another thread.  I think that thread would only belong here if it specifically pertained to the OO Church.

In other words, let's keep this on topic.  Thanks
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« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2009, 10:41:13 PM »

OK I just re-read the OP and realized the original question had to do with Consubstantiation and both the OO's or EO's.  In other words, it's about Consubstantiation and Orthodoxy in the more expansive sense of the word.  I guess then that discussion should be whether OO's or EO's or both believe in that.  The discussion of how Catholics feel about it should still be in the Orthodox-Catholic Forum.  I have no problem with an EO who is inquiring into the OO Church and hasn't communed in a while participating, and I don't want a discussion on whether or not such a person is Orthodox to be in this thread.  I hope this clears things up.  Sorry about the mixup.
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« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2009, 11:46:28 PM »

*this was more discussion about whether I'm Orthodox or not*
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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2009, 02:10:36 AM »

Sorry.
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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2009, 02:17:21 AM »

Quote
Seeing as how there is no "Orthodox", "Eastern Orthodox", or "Oriental Orthodox" option on Myspace, I put Catholic indicating Orthodox Catholic.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought most Orthodox put "Christian - Other" on myspace, but then I don't know many Orthodox on myspace, so my experience is limited. Thanks for correcting my mistake.
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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2009, 02:47:32 AM »

Quote
Seeing as how there is no "Orthodox", "Eastern Orthodox", or "Oriental Orthodox" option on Myspace, I put Catholic indicating Orthodox Catholic.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought most Orthodox put "Christian - Other" on myspace, but then I don't know many Orthodox on myspace, so my experience is limited. Thanks for correcting my mistake.

That's alright. Your post was not one of the most offensive in this thread.  Wink
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« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2009, 08:25:36 AM »

Page 63 (pdf 68) of this book has a section on "the nature of the change". Mostly dealing with why we don't accept transubstantiation, but it has some information that may help you.

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/liturgy.pdf
Is there any way to let the author know that he has grossly misrepresented the Catholic teaching on Transubstantiation?  The Catholic teaching does not teach that the bread and wine physically turn into the Body and Blood of Christ. 

Blessings


How do you explain Lanciano then?  The very idea of transubstantiation includes a sense of physical presence unless you follow the modern theologians like Karl Rahner or Edward Shillebeex who say that the Eucharist is a sign of the body of Christ.  Here is a link that mentions it being physical from EWTN.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/MODMISC.TXT

To RCs Lanciano is, by definition, a miracle. I wouldn't consider this very important in defining HOW the Eucharist ordinarily changes bread and wine into Christ's body and blood. Or would you assume that all the times a bishop blesses an icon, the saint within it will perform miracles through the icon as a consequence of the blessing alone? Miracles are just, as st. John said, signs from God. And they especially occur to strenghten faith, making visible to the senses what occurs ordinarily only in an invisible/sacramental way. In the case of the Lanciano miracle, a RC might object that at Lanciano the consecrated host actually became (physically and visibly) flesh to reveal to the doubting priest the certainty that Christ's body is indeed present under the appearance of bread. As for me, I even think the body and blood are substantially present in an unknown manner under the gifts, which is anyway a mystery I wouldn't study too much.


The holy gifts can REMAIN Christ's body and blood when unworthily eated by a weaked person,

Only if consubstantiation is true. Otherwise, the transformation of the elements is complete at the end of the epiclesis, significantly before anyone receives the Gifts.
If consubstantiation is true, you're still eating bread and wine together with Christ. When I partake in the Eucharist, I KNOW there's no bread and wine anymore in the priest's hands. And anyway, I never said that the body and blood of Christ are not present under the veil of bread and wine before the gifts are eaten. On the contrary, they are present SINCE the time of consecration for both the just and the wicked. But eating worthily means spiritually communing in Christ, while eating unworthily means assimilating Christ's flesh as if it were ordinary food (more or less like eating some meat). That's the difference which makes the wicked responsible for a sacrilege: they are changing the function of the Eucharist from a gift of grace into ordinary food as if Christ meant nothing or weren't present.

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2009, 06:06:43 PM »


I know we can't agree with consubstantation. Christ said "This is my Body", not "My Body is in here". We believe that it literally is the Body and Blood when we partake.

Huh? Consubstantiation also involves the partaking of the literal Body and Blood of Christ.

According to my limited understanding, consubstantiation teaches that one is partaking of the Body and Blood, and bread and wine, i.e. that both are present, that the Body and Blood are under or in the bread and wine. (I'm expressing it badly, but I hope what I am claiming to be the difference is clear), in Orthodox we believe it to BE the Body and Blood that we partake of. I don't think we can say that it is still in any sense bread or wine as well. (To hopefully avoid a debate on whether that is ok to believe in Orthodoxy, it doesn't matter, what's important is that we can't go as far as to positively teach it, which I believe consubstantiation does). I still just think both transubstantiation and consubstantiation go too far past what we simply know, it is the Body and Blood that we partake of.
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« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2009, 07:34:08 PM »


I know we can't agree with consubstantation. Christ said "This is my Body", not "My Body is in here". We believe that it literally is the Body and Blood when we partake.

Huh? Consubstantiation also involves the partaking of the literal Body and Blood of Christ.

According to my limited understanding, consubstantiation teaches that one is partaking of the Body and Blood, and bread and wine, i.e. that both are present, that the Body and Blood are under or in the bread and wine. (I'm expressing it badly, but I hope what I am claiming to be the difference is clear), in Orthodox we believe it to BE the Body and Blood that we partake of. I don't think we can say that it is still in any sense bread or wine as well. (To hopefully avoid a debate on whether that is ok to believe in Orthodoxy, it doesn't matter, what's important is that we can't go as far as to positively teach it, which I believe consubstantiation does). I still just think both transubstantiation and consubstantiation go too far past what we simply know, it is the Body and Blood that we partake of.
How does transubstantiation go past what we know?
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« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2009, 03:11:39 AM »

There are no official or statements in the Orthodox church on the exact way the 'change' occurs in the species at the Consecration.
The Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem (XVII century) adopts the same aristotelian concepts of the Latin dogma of transsubstantiation, such as "substance" and "accidents", and also translates "transsubstantiation" as literally as possible with a constructed word, "metaousia". It must be said that the Council of Jerusalem is regarded as authoritative but not infallible in its definitions, i.e. it may contain errors such as imprecise formulas to define dogmas because of an exaggerated Latin influence on the assembly, due to the fact that most bishops and theologians present at the synod had been educated in Western (and thus Catholic) schools and seminaries. Anyway, even in that case, the word 'substance' has more of a 'spiritual/mystical' feeling then its Latin counterpart "substantia". That said, AFAIK, consubstantiation is not an official statement on faith in the Real Presence. What an Orthodox Christian should acknowledge is that we receive bread and wine as true Body and true Blood of Christ, but the manner of this change (called 'metabole') is indeed unknown. This sense of 'mystery' is essential to the Orthodox faith, in fact all sacraments are called 'Mysteries'. I sincerely don't know how consubstantiation could be regarded as an Orthodox doctrine, since Lutheran terminology on this belief implies a mixture of the original species and of the body of Christ to be present in the host/prosphora, which sounds absurd to me but could nevertheless be acceptable for others. It'd better to stay far from theological definitions which are not grounded in the Bible or in Holy Tradition, though.

In Christ,   alex

I asked my priest about the importance of this particular council a while ago, and how Orthodox view such terms as "transubstantiation". I think a similar approach can be taken to "consubstantiation".  Here is his answer to my question:



"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 

Basically "transubstantiation" in the full RC sense enslaves the mystery of the Eucharist to the categories of Aristotelian philosophy.  This is a product of Western "Scholastic" theology and utterly alien to the Fathers.  Eastern Orthodox used the term, some do to this day, but they simply mean "transformation" by it, without all the Aristotelian/Scholastic baggage that goes along with it.  "
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« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2009, 08:37:49 AM »

There are no official or statements in the Orthodox church on the exact way the 'change' occurs in the species at the Consecration.
The Pan-Orthodox Council of Jerusalem (XVII century) adopts the same aristotelian concepts of the Latin dogma of transsubstantiation, such as "substance" and "accidents", and also translates "transsubstantiation" as literally as possible with a constructed word, "metaousia". It must be said that the Council of Jerusalem is regarded as authoritative but not infallible in its definitions, i.e. it may contain errors such as imprecise formulas to define dogmas because of an exaggerated Latin influence on the assembly, due to the fact that most bishops and theologians present at the synod had been educated in Western (and thus Catholic) schools and seminaries. Anyway, even in that case, the word 'substance' has more of a 'spiritual/mystical' feeling then its Latin counterpart "substantia". That said, AFAIK, consubstantiation is not an official statement on faith in the Real Presence. What an Orthodox Christian should acknowledge is that we receive bread and wine as true Body and true Blood of Christ, but the manner of this change (called 'metabole') is indeed unknown. This sense of 'mystery' is essential to the Orthodox faith, in fact all sacraments are called 'Mysteries'. I sincerely don't know how consubstantiation could be regarded as an Orthodox doctrine, since Lutheran terminology on this belief implies a mixture of the original species and of the body of Christ to be present in the host/prosphora, which sounds absurd to me but could nevertheless be acceptable for others. It'd better to stay far from theological definitions which are not grounded in the Bible or in Holy Tradition, though.

In Christ,   alex

I asked my priest about the importance of this particular council a while ago, and how Orthodox view such terms as "transubstantiation". I think a similar approach can be taken to "consubstantiation".  Here is his answer to my question:



"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 

Basically "transubstantiation" in the full RC sense enslaves the mystery of the Eucharist to the categories of Aristotelian philosophy.  This is a product of Western "Scholastic" theology and utterly alien to the Fathers.  Eastern Orthodox used the term, some do to this day, but they simply mean "transformation" by it, without all the Aristotelian/Scholastic baggage that goes along with it.  "
While, as I have repeated -  I don't know - some 1000 times in this thread, I am not a lover of Scholasticism, I think that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are making exactly the same errors: they want their own theological languages to be imposed as the only good one. Latins have forgotten the Greek roots of many Church Fathers, as well as the Orthodox demonize everything coming from Western Christianity which isn't expressed precisely in the same words as the Greek Church Fathers. In the Early Church, there were both Latins AND Greeks. They had their different ways to express the same doctrines and they didn't demonize each other, since the Seven Ecumenical Councils solved these distinctions with common agreements. The Councils were often held by a majority of Greek Fathers, but the Pope and his legates 'balanced' the Greek understanding with a Latin perspective on the issues. Is it so difficult to acknowledge that in the passage I quoted an Eastern Father (st. Cyril of Jerusalem) was using EXACTLY the same concepts of Scholasticism when teaching the Eucharistic Presence of our Lord in the Prosphora and in the Chalice? This continued "Greek theology is bad" from the Roman Catholic side and "Latin theology is bad" from the Eastern Orthodox side are exactly the same attitude of st. Peter and st. Paul when they were one against the other. How can we be Christians when we refute by prejudice to hear each other with understanding? How can we seek a reunion - or at least hope and pray for it - if we don't look for what is COMMON among our theologies? There are LOTS of churches everywhere in the world whose teachings are incredibly further from both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and yet you don't condemn them as vehemently as you do with each other, despite these sects (in particular the Protestant world) are more dangerous with their heresies!
I'm sorry for this innuendo, but I was waiting for a while to show my new position. I have been defending Orthodoxy in all respects for these months, but seeing that the same problems (blindness, I would say) are present in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism when it comes to a TRUE dialogue, I find myself deeply sorrowful.
I hope all of you might understand my delusion and pray for my rage to calm down as soon as possible, because I feel frustrated.

In Christ,   Alex

PS: This isn't directly something against you, dear Ortho_cat. It's about the entire system of Catholic-Orthodox discussions perpetrated both in this board and 'outside' in the real ecumenical round tables of our hierarchs, both RC and EO.
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« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »

Of course, no offense taken.  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2009, 03:37:08 PM »

Of course, no offense taken.  Lord have mercy!
You changed your name???
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« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2009, 03:38:40 PM »

Of course, no offense taken.  Lord have mercy!
You changed your name???

Yes, for reasons that I'd rather not get into.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2009, 03:50:30 PM »

Of course, no offense taken.  Lord have mercy!
You changed your name???

Yes, for reasons that I'd rather not get into.  Lips Sealed
fair enough. If I could go back and change my name it would be to "Mega-Papist".  Grin
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« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2009, 04:46:56 PM »

I generally have not spent a lot of time with what Protestants believe on the Eucharist, but I did look up "consubstantiation" and it is not compatible with the view above from St. Cyril of Jerusalm. Where Cyril says "appearance of bread", Lutherans said, "it's still bread," which is an attitude that has been compared to Nestorianism. "What part of these gifts is not Jesus Christ?" There doesn't seem to be a common Anglican belief on what happens, but they do like the phrease "real presence." I'm curious what ARCIC came up with a couple of years ago. For old thread fun on the two terms...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=2156.45

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« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2009, 11:56:56 PM »

"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 


I find it hard to accept that 20th century "Patristic revivalists" understand things better than a Holy Council of the Orthodox Church! Truths that were hidden from all until Florovsky found the mystic Rosetta Stone and cracked the code, I suppose.... Western influence existed in those times just like it was Western influences that allowed the Patristic revival--the Church expresses itself in the cultural context it finds itself in.
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« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2009, 12:21:09 AM »

"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 


I find it hard to accept that 20th century "Patristic revivalists" understand things better than a Holy Council of the Orthodox Church! Truths that were hidden from all until Florovsky found the mystic Rosetta Stone and cracked the code, I suppose.... Western influence existed in those times just like it was Western influences that allowed the Patristic revival--the Church expresses itself in the cultural context it finds itself in.

I think I agree with you, Father.
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« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2009, 04:37:50 AM »

"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 


I find it hard to accept that 20th century "Patristic revivalists" understand things better than a Holy Council of the Orthodox Church! Truths that were hidden from all until Florovsky found the mystic Rosetta Stone and cracked the code, I suppose.... Western influence existed in those times just like it was Western influences that allowed the Patristic revival--the Church expresses itself in the cultural context it finds itself in.

I think I agree with you, Father.

I add my signature to this wonderful conclusion, Father!

I generally have not spent a lot of time with what Protestants believe on the Eucharist, but I did look up "consubstantiation" and it is not compatible with the view above from St. Cyril of Jerusalm. Where Cyril says "appearance of bread", Lutherans said, "it's still bread," which is an attitude that has been compared to Nestorianism. "What part of these gifts is not Jesus Christ?" There doesn't seem to be a common Anglican belief on what happens, but they do like the phrease "real presence." I'm curious what ARCIC came up with a couple of years ago. For old thread fun on the two terms...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=2156.45



...and I appreciate your understanding of the problems of consubstantiation, John. Definitely, the theology of consubstantiation is incompatible with the words of st. Cyril, and the accusation of nestorianism is also correct. Now, anyway, I'm afraid somebody will see some form of docetism in transubstantiation, as it happens with all these limited expressions we can use to grasp the mysteries of God. We are indeed very restricted in our created and fallen minds!

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2009, 05:54:33 AM »

"The Council of Jerusalem has not had much staying power among the Orthodox, as its statements represent Latinization of Orthodox theology.  It's an example of the "Western Captivity" of Orthodox theology that held sway for quite some time until the "patristic revival" of the 20th century.  The Council of Jerusalem represents a fairly successful attempt by the RC's to get the Orthodox "on their side" as much as possible against Protestants. 

I find it hard to accept that 20th century "Patristic revivalists" understand things better than a Holy Council of the Orthodox Church! Truths that were hidden from all until Florovsky found the mystic Rosetta Stone and cracked the code, I suppose.... Western influence existed in those times just like it was Western influences that allowed the Patristic revival--the Church expresses itself in the cultural context it finds itself in.

This is one area that I find rather confusing. On another thread someone quoted Met. Kallistos as saying: "Orthodox have never held (as Augustine and many others in the west have done) that unbaptized babies, because tainted with original guilt, are consigned by the just God to the everlasting flames of hell." (The Orthodox Church, p. 224 -- I'm using the 1993 edition of this book) In a footnote given at the end of this statement we find, in part, the words: "It should be noted that an Augustinian view of the fall is found from time to time on the Orthodoxy theological literature; but this is usually the result of western influence. The Orthodox Confession by Peter of Moghila is, as one might expect, strongly Augustinian; on the other hand the Confession of Dosithues is free from Augustinianism" (The Orthodox Church, footnote 2, page 224) What's more, Met. Kallistos calls the The Confession of Dositheus one of "the chief Orthodox doctrinal statements since 787" (The Orthodox Church, p. 203)

But some of this seems incorrect to me. The Confession of Dositheus, for all that it gets right, also gets some things wrong, and seems to be influenced by western thinking, at least in part. So, first, unbaptized infants are said by the Confession to go to eternal punishment (Decree 16). I've seen some Orthodox express agnostic views on this, and some express the view that such infants go to heaven, but I've not really come across much that says they are condemned and go to hell. That actually seems very unorthodox to me.

Second, the Confession of Dositheus seems to support the idea of some type of purgatorial state in the afterlife (Decree 18). Some others seem to agree, at least in part, with this. St. Mark of Ephesus, for all his arguments against the Roman Catholic Church, seems to support some purgation in the afterlife (for example, see here for a sample of what he had to say), as do other Fathers. Yet the standard Orthodox view, so far as I've seen, is that there is no purgatory in the afterlife, end of story.

And third, when the question "Ought the Divine Scriptures to be read in the vulgar tongue by all Christians?" is asked, the Confession says plainly that the answer is no. This is very different than many of the Eastern Christians that I've read. I can remember St. John Chrysostom, for example, rebuking his congregation because they knew all sorts of information about athletes and celebrities, but let their Bibles (or what books they had of the Bible, anyway), collect dust and go unused. Another example, monks who went to Pachomius were given the following rule(s) to be followed:

"Whoever enters the monastery uninstructed shall be taught first what he must observe; and when, so taught, he has consented to it all, they shall give him twenty psalms or two of the Apostle’s epistles, or some other part of the Scripture. And if he is illiterate, he shall go at the first, third, and sixth hours to someone who can teach and has been appointed for him. He shall stand before him and learn very studiously with all gratitude. Then the fundamentals of a syllable, the verbs, and nouns shall be written for him, and even if he does not want to, he shall be compelled to read. There shall be no one whatever in the monastery who does not learn to read and does not memorize something of the Scriptures. (One should learn by heart) at least the New Testament and the Psalter."

So far from keeping the Scripture out of the hands of the majority of the Church, many early Eastern Fathers I've read encouraged their flock to learn the Scriptures, insofar as they were capable.

So, with all due respect, if someone says that unbaptized babies go to heaven or that we don't konw, or that there is no purgatory, or that all Christians ought to read the Bible, then I would agree with that person and disagree with the The Confession of Dositheus, which it is my understanding was officially accepted by Synod Of Jerusalem (1672). I don't think that "Florovsky found the mystic Rosetta Stone and cracked the code". But he, and others like him, may have gotten some things right that a Council got wrong. It's possible. Whether that's true in the main case being discussed here, I don't know.
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