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IreneOlinyk
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« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2009, 11:55:51 AM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





No, I mean what I said about the history of Orthodox-Ukrainian Catholic Conflict in Volynia during the inter-war period.  For example, the Ukranian Catholics canonized their Bishop Nicholas Charnetsky, a Redemtorist who was sent by Sheptytsky to the Northern part of Volynia (farthest from Galicia) and was instructed to dress in Orthodox vestments and use strictly Orthodox version sof the liturgy with the aim of converting the locak Orthodox Ukrainians into the Ukranian Catholic Church.
During the same time period in Galicia, the local Ukrainian Catholic priests' vestments were different from the vestments used in Orthodox Volynia.  Not remarked so but different enough for Orthodox to see the difference.  Also the practices in Galicia included Latinizations such as the rosary, kneeling at different times during the Divine Liturgy than the Orthodox, not letting children go to communion.  Promotion of the the Sacred heart devotions and many more difference.
Middle-class Orthodox Volynians who refused to become Catholics lost their government/official jobs.  The Roman Catholic Poles  destroyed many Orthodox churches and also tried to take over the Pochaiv monastery.
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« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2009, 04:30:22 PM »

Yes, we seem to think that all the Orthodox-Catholic conflict was around the time of the failed Union of Brest, but it erupted again in the 20th century.
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« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2009, 07:38:35 PM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Not to nit pick, but Ukraine has existed as a country for what, <25 years?  The part of Halych  when it voted for Ukrainian independence, also voted on autonomy (which Ukraine denied).

It has come up before:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18038.msg262756.html#msg262756
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16476.msg239511.html#msg239511
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22136.msg336950.html#msg336950
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21462.msg324517.html#msg324517
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21850.msg332283.html#msg332283
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21477.msg324829.html#msg324829
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3982.msg52810.html#msg52810
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22406.msg341358.html#msg341358
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22406.msg341358.html#msg341358

The last one has an interesting link to a contemporary source on St. Alexei Kabalyuk's arrest and imprisonment for Orthodoxy by the AH government.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21490.msg324729.html#msg324729
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« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2009, 08:15:30 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

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« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2009, 01:47:32 AM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The only place I hear someone wax poetic about being Carpatho Russian/Rusyn is in a parish hall over a roast beef dinner deep in the Allegheny mountains of Pennsylvania.  I've never heard a Ukrainian citizen call himself a Carpatho Russian/Rusyn.  Heck, my family is from Halychnya and they've ALWAYS waved the Ukrainian flag under the American Flag on the parish flag pole.  I have friends that spend a lot of time in Western Ukraine, specifically in what an American with a stoic vision would call "Carpatho Rus."
They've never heard of the ethnic group, they all identify themselves as Ukrainians and don't have any qualms about proudly saying they are Hutsuls.  I know this reality is a bitter pill many Pennsylvanians can't swallow.  I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble.  The closest I ever got to an answer from a Ukrainian citizen that lives within the borders of "Carpatho-Rus" who has never seen the mythical creature was that some people way up in the hills speak a different dialect.

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.
 
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« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2009, 10:40:35 AM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.


Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The only place I hear someone wax poetic about being Carpatho Russian/Rusyn is in a parish hall over a roast beef dinner deep in the Allegheny mountains of Pennsylvania.  I've never heard a Ukrainian citizen call himself a Carpatho Russian/Rusyn.  Heck, my family is from Halychnya and they've ALWAYS waved the Ukrainian flag under the American Flag on the parish flag pole.  I have friends that spend a lot of time in Western Ukraine, specifically in what an American with a stoic vision would call "Carpatho Rus."
They've never heard of the ethnic group, they all identify themselves as Ukrainians and don't have any qualms about proudly saying they are Hutsuls.  I know this reality is a bitter pill many Pennsylvanians can't swallow.  I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble.  The closest I ever got to an answer from a Ukrainian citizen that lives within the borders of "Carpatho-Rus" who has never seen the mythical creature was that some people way up in the hills speak a different dialect.

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.
 


It's strange to read responses like this from some Ukrainians while they, as well as other Ukrainins, cry about how the big bad Russians will not let then be what THEY THEMSELVES want to be - Ukrainians!  Talk about having a double standard!  About a month or so ago RT (Russian Televevision) did a segment on those of us who call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn or Carpatho-Russian and live in what is now part of Ukraine.  It seems the Ukraine IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO DOESN'T ACCEPT THEIR IDENTITY!  Those of them that live in what is now part of Poland and Slovakia are accorded thei Carpatho-Rusyn identity.  Once again, double standard!

Orthodoc (Carpatho-Rusyn and proud)


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« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2009, 10:52:44 AM »

I've never whined about the Russians!  I'm friends with most of the Russians that go to the churches in my area.  We don't get into the whole Ukrainian V. Russian thing.  I guess my family could be called Carpatho-Rusyns but they never called themselves that.  They always called themselves Ukrainians. 
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« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2009, 11:11:00 AM »


Orthodoc,

I don't live in Ukraine, and don't know how living situations are for Carpatho-Rusyns there.

Are you saying that Ukraine states that your "identity" doesn't exist?

Here in the U.S. when I attended by teeny tiny Ukrainian school we learned about the Carpatho-Rusyns and the Lemko people, etc.  We even had posters on the boards, and little dolls set up at the festival to show the different ethnicities and their unique national costumes, embroideries, dialects, etc.

My deepest apologies to you if you feel oppressed.  I am being completely honest and heartfelt.

What is that your people seek?  What does it mean that you are "denied your identity?"  Is it just that you want people to acknowledge the different ethnicity or is it something more?

Please...not being facetious....just honestly curious.

I always thought of it as different peoples who comprise the Ukrainian nation.  Just like in the US we have the Southerners with their own personalities and customs, the midwesterners, etc.

I didn't realize these people wanted to be "separate" and weren't happy to be Ukrainians.  Why anyone wouldn't want to be a Ukrainian is beyond me!   Wink

...and as for Russians....I don't recall many of the Ukrainians on this forum ever ripping on the Russians (although there have been a few occurrences).  It's usually vice versa. 

Additionally, Ukraine isn't claiming Russian lands, language, sites, saints, poets, musicians, Church, etc...for it's own.  Ukraine would be very happy to leave Russia to the Russians....as long as Russians leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians. 

Ukraine is definitely not reaching it's hand out to overtake anything Russian.


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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2009, 11:26:42 AM »

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.

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« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2009, 12:30:23 PM »


Orthodoc,

I don't live in Ukraine, and don't know how living situations are for Carpatho-Rusyns there.

Are you saying that Ukraine states that your "identity" doesn't exist? Here in the U.S. when I attended by teeny tiny Ukrainian school we learned about the Carpatho-Rusyns and the Lemko people, etc.  We even had posters on the boards, and little dolls set up at the festival to show the different ethnicities and their unique national costumes, embroideries, dialects, etc.

My deepest apologies to you if you feel oppressed.  I am being completely honest and heartfelt.

What is that your people seek?  What does it mean that you are "denied your identity?"  Is it just that you want people to acknowledge the different ethnicity or is it something more?Please...not being facetious....just honestly curious.

I always thought of it as different peoples who comprise the Ukrainian nation.  Just like in the US we have the Southerners with their own personalities and customs, the midwesterners, etc.

I didn't realize these people wanted to be "separate" and weren't happy to be Ukrainians.  Why anyone wouldn't want to be a Ukrainian is beyond me!   Wink

...and as for Russians....I don't recall many of the Ukrainians on this forum ever ripping on the Russians (although there have been a few occurrences).  It's usually vice versa. 

Additionally, Ukraine isn't claiming Russian lands, language, sites, saints, poets, musicians, Church, etc...for it's own.  Ukraine would be very happy to leave Russia to the Russians....as long as Russians leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians. 

Ukraine is definitely not reaching it's hand out to overtake anything Russian.




Liz:

According to what I've read in the Carpatho Russian newspapaer and the documentary I watched on TV the answer is YES! The Lemko's living in Ukraine are indeed being told their identity does noy exist which they are recognized in both Poland and Slovaka as I have stated.

If you asked my grandfather (who came over in 1905) if he was Uktainian his answer would be NO!  He identified himself as amalo Rus or Carpatho Russian and his language was Ponashomo (spelling)!

And indeed the Ukraine continues to deny the Lemkos a separate identity.  There may be others that know more than I.  Deacon Lance perhaps.  Or members of the ACROD.

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« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
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« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2009, 02:15:42 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!



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« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2009, 02:18:32 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!


LOL, I agree Liza. But I guess what I was asking is what distinguishes a Ukrainian from a Ruthenian, from a Carpatho-Rusyn, from (am I leaving anyone out?)

I am third generation American. The Ukrainian heritage I know is obviously a watered down version from those living in the country. Also, my ancestors were from Galicia, and technically immigrated from Poland, so I'm not sure how that plays into things.

So what makes someone distinguishibly Ukrainian?
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« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2009, 04:27:03 PM »

Quote
According to what I've read in the Carpatho Russian newspapaer and the documentary I watched on TV the answer is YES! The Lemko's living in Ukraine are indeed being told their identity does noy exist which they are recognized in both Poland and Slovaka as I have stated.

If you asked my grandfather (who came over in 1905) if he was Uktainian his answer would be NO!  He identified himself as amalo Rus or Carpatho Russian and his language was Ponashomo (spelling)!

And indeed the Ukraine continues to deny the Lemkos a separate identity.  There may be others that know more than I.  Deacon Lance perhaps.  Or members of the ACROD.

Orthodoc

What was the name of the newspaper you were reading?
 Is it available on line?
Have you read any of the books by Prof. Magocsi on the Carpatho-Rusyns?  He is also the President of the World Free Congress of Rusyns.  he does not use the terminology "Carpatho-Russian."

In addition to the Rusyn organizations and fraternal clubs, there are also various Lemko orgainizations.  The Lemkos seem to be better organized than let's say the Boykos or the Hutsuly.












































































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« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2009, 04:48:13 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!


LOL, I agree Liza. But I guess what I was asking is what distinguishes a Ukrainian from a Ruthenian, from a Carpatho-Rusyn, from (am I leaving anyone out?)

I am third generation American. The Ukrainian heritage I know is obviously a watered down version from those living in the country. Also, my ancestors were from Galicia, and technically immigrated from Poland, so I'm not sure how that plays into things.

So what makes someone distinguishibly Ukrainian?

That's the thing, the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim Lemke, Bojkos, Hutsuli and sub-carpathians as the groups that make up "Carpatho-Rusyns.  What makes them distinguishable from Ukrainians?  Well, last I checked say Hutsuls call themselves Ukrainian so really, um, nothing... The biggest difference is in the separate Greek Catholic Churches and Orthodox jurisdictions in the USA...   Ruthenian Byzantine (Greek) Catholics --- Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church... Ukraininan Orthodox EP and American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese EP.  From what I gather from many people who have spent more than a 5 day vacation in Western Ukraine the differences that exist in the churches in the USA aren't seen in Ukraine.  Possibly the biggest difference is in Slovakia the Greek Catholics use Slovak, in Ukraine the Greek Catholics use Ukrainian. In the whole area the canonical Orthodox use Church Slavonic.
I mean one can list the liturgical differences between the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics/ACROD v. Ukrainian  Orthodox EP and the Ukrainian Greek CAtholics (which doesn't line up with the Ukrainian Orthodox traditions completely).  But from what I gather these are differences experienced mainly in the USA not the old country.  Otherwise we sing the same Christmas Carols, wear the same ethnic costumes, eat the same pyrohy, and so forth.  Why?  You can guess my answer.
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« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2009, 06:22:05 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns
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« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2009, 06:41:20 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

The short story of the Rusyns in Ukraine can be seen on -

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/


It's the piece on You Tube called the Rusyns.

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« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2009, 10:52:24 PM »

On the matter of "ethnicity", be it cultural or by "blood-relation": Consider the situation of a very dear friend of mine, whose confirmed ethnic origins are Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Latvian and Swedish (given this mix, there may well be other ethnic strands in his makeup), whose parents and maternal grandparents emigrated to an English-speaking country in the 1940s, the country of this person's birth. What ethnicity or culture could, or "should", this person identify with?

Folks, having a cultural hook to hang your hat on is all very well and good, but, for countless millions in the world, so many of us are mongrels (in the proper sense of the word), myself and my friend included. My own ancestry is almost as mixed as that of my friend's. When it comes to being Orthodox, does this truly matter? And when ethnic or cultural identity becomes a source of division or discord among Orthodox believers, what does this say?  Undecided Cry
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« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2009, 11:11:59 PM »

On the matter of "ethnicity", be it cultural or by "blood-relation": Consider the situation of a very dear friend of mine, whose confirmed ethnic origins are Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Latvian and Swedish (given this mix, there may well be other ethnic strands in his makeup), whose parents and maternal grandparents emigrated to an English-speaking country in the 1940s, the country of this person's birth. What ethnicity or culture could, or "should", this person identify with?

Folks, having a cultural hook to hang your hat on is all very well and good, but, for countless millions in the world, so many of us are mongrels (in the proper sense of the word), myself and my friend included. My own ancestry is almost as mixed as that of my friend's. When it comes to being Orthodox, does this truly matter? And when ethnic or cultural identity becomes a source of division or discord among Orthodox believers, what does this say?   Undecided Cry

Exactly!  I'm Carpatho-Rusyn on my mom's side and Polish and Croatian on my dad's.  Only thing it ever meant to me as a kid was when my mom was mad at me I was a dumb polock, and when my dad was mad at me I was stubborn thick headed Russian!  Could never win.  Maybe that's why I'm so proud to be just an American!

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« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2009, 11:34:10 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy
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« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2009, 12:59:45 AM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

My Grandma on my Father's side said pirohi, but she said she was Slovak! She was baptized Greek Catholic in Northampton, Pa, but her brother was baptized Orthodox in Central City, Pa. She said her Dad was Ukrainian, her mother Slovak, but the villages weren't that far apart! Where does this end, or begin, or end! Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Ukrainian, Slovak, Rusyn!

I know I'm Italian on my mothers side! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2009, 09:38:43 AM »


It's not such a bad thing as everyone seems to make it out to be.

First and foremost comes the Faith - regardless the nationality, ethnicity, race, etc.  Orthodoxy above ALL else.

Second, you have every right to be proud of your heritage.  No heritage, ethnicity, race, etc...is any better than any other.  However, you have the right to be proud of what you feel is your nationality.  You have a right to stick to your customs, your language, your traditions...  Just don't force them on anyone else.

Here, in the U.S. we are a melting pot of many cultures and nationalities.  Therefore, here we do need to make an "American" Orthodox church available for the people who do not associate themselves with any other nationality. 

...and yet, we should still be allowed to have our Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox churches in the States....people shouldn't be offended by them....nor should they claim that we chose nationality over Orthodoxy...for that is not correct.

I choose Orthodoxy above all.  However, since I was raised in a Ukrainian family, I spoke to God in Ukrainian from childhood, and therefore, hearing the Liturgy in Ukrainian touches my soul way more than hearing it in English.  It's not that I don't like it in English, I love the Liturgy no  matter what language is used.  However, I prefer Ukrainian...and others shouldn't be threatened by that.

Just last week I went to a Serbian church and I understand "very" little.  However, I know the Liturgy and I was fine with it.  So, I know how the English speakers feel in my Ukrainian church. 

I've been to many OCA churches where services are completely in English, yet, I still prefer Ukrainian.

However, if a Ukrainian Orthodox church was not around...believe me I would pick ANY other language...as long as it was an Orthodox Church.

Got it?

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and going to worship where you feel more comfortable.


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« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2009, 10:15:03 AM »

What's odd is that I am english-speaking,and yet  for the most part I prefer the services to be in Church Slavonic, because that's what I'm used to! Everytime I hear them in English, it makes me wince, because it sounds so terribly awkward. Being able to understand the basic structure of the service in CS is very helpful when attending other Orthodox services,such as Ukrainian and Serbian. I sang in the choir at a Serbian church for awhile, and basically, as far as I could tell, everything was the same, except they placed the accent on different syllables at times. However, I could never understand the sermon, which was preached in Serbian, which always bothered me.
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« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2009, 10:28:32 AM »


Exactly so!

That's why when my own priest is out of town, I prefer the Serbian Church - I can understand the Church Slavonic.

Of course, I can understand the English at the OCA church down the road, but, it's that "slavic" language that makes my soul sing.  It's what I grew up with...and what gives me true satisfaction.

I am truly lucky for I live in a vicinity where there are a number of different Orthodox Churches.

I have visited them ALL!  And I love them ALL....but, prefer Slavic.  Just a personal preference...not that one is better than the other.

I've been to Greek, Romanian, OCA (English), Coptic, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Antiochian...

My part of the US...is rich with Orthodox faithful!  Glory be to God!

...and we do all get together and celebrate.  It's amazing to see.  We have a "council" that binds us all together for fundraisers, special events (dinners/dance), religious classes and seminars, and of course Lenten Vespers. 

Truly amazing!

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« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

My Grandma on my Father's side said pirohi, but she said she was Slovak! She was baptized Greek Catholic in Northampton, Pa, but her brother was baptized Orthodox in Central City, Pa. She said her Dad was Ukrainian, her mother Slovak, but the villages weren't that far apart! Where does this end, or begin, or end! Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Ukrainian, Slovak, Rusyn!

I know I'm Italian on my mothers side! Roll Eyes

LOL.  The Carpatho-Russian priest who chrismated me had an Italian mother: first time she met the family she saw plates of pirohi, and, thinking "oh, ravioli" poured tomato sauce over them all.  The priest said not so bad for the poatato and sour craut, but the jam filled ones....

Said priest was fresh out of St. Vlad's, and relished the idea of sticking the stake through the Slavonic, for which I upbraided him.  I don't have a drop of Slavic blood (that I know of), but people in the parish went out of their way to try to say "Christ in risen" in Arabic, the DL alternated parts from Slavonic and English (and Greek), so if it was Slavonic this week it would be English next (eventuall a moot point for me, as I started learning the Slavonic).  "I didn't make the Church, this Church was here.  This is their heritage, and they welcomed me.  I'm not Carpatho-Russian, and I don't have a problem.  Why do you?" asked.

When I first went to the parish (SS Peter and Paul in Chicago, btw), I had never heard of Carpatho-Russians.  I knew of Ukrainians, as my first love was UCC from Poland (she taught me the distinction between Russians and Ukrainians).  I recognized the recension of Slavonic, and I asked the priest at our first meeting "are you guys Ukrainians?"  "Well," he said "we were on the one side of the mountain, and the Ukrainians were on the other side."  "Yes," I continued, "and every Sunday you both went to Church and thanked God for the mountain." Tongue
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« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2009, 03:29:57 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Languages are dead when they're not spoken at home and in society.  How many people speak "Rusyn"?
How many FOR real not figures made up by the carpatho rusyn society?  Exactly.  It's a dialect of Ukrainian period if anyone really speaks it outside the home.  And people wonder why the Carpatho-Rusyns aren't recognized as a distinct minority, it is because they are Ukrainians.  It's all an ethnic idea created in the minds of Americans and perpetuated by a few in Ukraine/Slovakia.  What I don't get is the whole idea of "Carpatho-Rusyns" identity claims the ethnic groups that make up the Western Ukrainian people.  So those people live in Ukraine, say Hutsuls, which the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim are Carpatho Rusyn.  Well, Hutsuls live in Ukraine, that makes them Ukrainian.  It doesn't make them "Carpatho-Rusyn."  Why?  Because that is the country they live in.  Carpatho-Rusyn is an umbrella term that they claim encompasses Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls and Sub-Carpathians... so it's not one identity. So it's not like saying "Carpatho-Rusyns" consist of a solitary identity.  That would be easier to buy, much like the Lemkos saying they are an ethnic group.  But the Lemkos don't say "oh we're a distinct ethnic group that encompasses four or so OTHER ethnic groups."  Problem is those four groups in Ukraine happen to be citizens of Ukraine not "Carpatho-Rus."  That is the problem.  It's not as if those in the states are claiming the "carpatho Rusyns" are just Carpatho-Rusyns."  No they are claiming four distinct ethnic groups belong to them. 
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« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2009, 03:34:50 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

Haha Johnstown, PA!! That's like the centre of the Carpatho-Rusyn identity, you won't find many there calling themselves "Ukrainian Americans" save for the dozen or so that go to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (EP) that's like four blocks from the ACROD Cathedral.
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« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2009, 03:43:02 PM »

Quote
You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?

Actually both sides of my family are from the Johnstown PA area... but alas, I'm not Ukrainian.
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« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2009, 03:45:49 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

Haha Johnstown, PA!! That's like the centre of the Carpatho-Rusyn identity, you won't find many there calling themselves "Ukrainian Americans" save for the dozen or so that go to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (EP) that's like four blocks from the ACROD Cathedral.

I didn't know there was a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnstown. There are 3 Orthodox churches in that small town.  Imagine if we could all be united under one American church.............

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« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2009, 04:00:34 PM »


It's not such a bad thing as everyone seems to make it out to be.

First and foremost comes the Faith - regardless the nationality, ethnicity, race, etc.  Orthodoxy above ALL else.

Second, you have every right to be proud of your heritage.  No heritage, ethnicity, race, etc...is any better than any other.  However, you have the right to be proud of what you feel is your nationality.  You have a right to stick to your customs, your language, your traditions...  Just don't force them on anyone else.

Here, in the U.S. we are a melting pot of many cultures and nationalities.  Therefore, here we do need to make an "American" Orthodox church available for the people who do not associate themselves with any other nationality. 

...and yet, we should still be allowed to have our Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox churches in the States....people shouldn't be offended by them....nor should they claim that we chose nationality over Orthodoxy...for that is not correct.

I choose Orthodoxy above all.  However, since I was raised in a Ukrainian family, I spoke to God in Ukrainian from childhood, and therefore, hearing the Liturgy in Ukrainian touches my soul way more than hearing it in English.  It's not that I don't like it in English, I love the Liturgy no  matter what language is used.  However, I prefer Ukrainian...and others shouldn't be threatened by that.

Just last week I went to a Serbian church and I understand "very" little.  However, I know the Liturgy and I was fine with it.  So, I know how the English speakers feel in my Ukrainian church. 

I've been to many OCA churches where services are completely in English, yet, I still prefer Ukrainian.

However, if a Ukrainian Orthodox church was not around...believe me I would pick ANY other language...as long as it was an Orthodox Church.

Got it?

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and going to worship where you feel more comfortable.



My post was silly because I am a silly person (when outside of my job). Please forgive me if I have offended anyone.  If you enjoy participating and learning about other cultures, your Orthodox friends can provide hours of fascination.  What I REALLY wish is that my church had a strong influence of Young American culture  (LOTS of young families and their MANY children attending).  Sadly, this is lacking.
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« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2009, 04:15:39 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Languages are dead when they're not spoken at home and in society.  How many people speak "Rusyn"?
How many FOR real not figures made up by the carpatho rusyn society?  Exactly.  It's a dialect of Ukrainian period if anyone really speaks it outside the home.  And people wonder why the Carpatho-Rusyns aren't recognized as a distinct minority, it is because they are Ukrainians.  It's all an ethnic idea created in the minds of Americans and perpetuated by a few in Ukraine/Slovakia.  What I don't get is the whole idea of "Carpatho-Rusyns" identity claims the ethnic groups that make up the Western Ukrainian people.  So those people live in Ukraine, say Hutsuls, which the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim are Carpatho Rusyn.  Well, Hutsuls live in Ukraine, that makes them Ukrainian.  It doesn't make them "Carpatho-Rusyn."  Why?  Because that is the country they live in.  Carpatho-Rusyn is an umbrella term that they claim encompasses Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls and Sub-Carpathians... so it's not one identity. So it's not like saying "Carpatho-Rusyns" consist of a solitary identity.  That would be easier to buy, much like the Lemkos saying they are an ethnic group.  But the Lemkos don't say "oh we're a distinct ethnic group that encompasses four or so OTHER ethnic groups."  Problem is those four groups in Ukraine happen to be citizens of Ukraine not "Carpatho-Rus."  That is the problem.  It's not as if those in the states are claiming the "carpatho Rusyns" are just Carpatho-Rusyns."  No they are claiming four distinct ethnic groups belong to them. 

I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.
http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
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« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2009, 06:14:04 PM »

Username!,

I would guess somewhere from 60,000 (official numbers reported by countries with significant Rusyn populations) to 1.2 million (2001 Census for Zarkarpattia Oblast) speak Rusyn as their first language.  Does the Ukrainian government refuse to list people as Rusyn or register their language as Rusyn?  Why is it okay for the Ukrainians to claim the Lemkos, Hutsuls, Boykos, etc. but not the Carpatho-Rusyns?  Rather hypocritical I think.  Lemkos live in Poland does that make them Polish?  I think not.  For the record I am not Carpatho-Rusyn myself, my Greek Catholic ancestors were Slovak, really Slovak not just Slovakized-Rusyns, but I belong to a Church that is primarily Carpatho-Rusyn.   However, I don't argue with people about what they are, whether they claim to be Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Magyar is fine with me.  I just find it wrong when one group tries to tell another group what they are, be that Russians telling Ukrainians they are really Russians or Ukrainians telling Rusyns they are really Ukrainians.

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« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2009, 06:27:25 PM »


[/quote]

I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
[/quote]

That's what I mean about the double standards of some Ukrainians who post here!  On some replies all you have to do is reverse the national id. and you have the same treatment they cry about regarding their treatment of others.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2009, 07:11:26 PM »

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I would guess somewhere from 60,000 (official numbers reported by countries with significant Rusyn populations) to 1.2 million (2001 Census for Zarkarpattia Oblast) speak Rusyn as their first language.  Does the Ukrainian government refuse to list people as Rusyn or register their language as Rusyn?  Why is it okay for the Ukrainians to claim the Lemkos, Hutsuls, Boykos, etc. but not the Carpatho-Rusyns?  Rather hypocritical I think.  Lemkos live in Poland does that make them Polish?  I think not.  For the record I am not Carpatho-Rusyn myself, my Greek Catholic ancestors were Slovak, really Slovak not just Slovakized-Rusyns, but I belong to a Church that is primarily Carpatho-Rusyn.   However, I don't argue with people about what they are, whether they claim to be Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Magyar is fine with me.  I just find it wrong when one group tries to tell another group what they are, be that Russians telling Ukrainians they are really Russians or Ukrainians telling Rusyns they are really Ukrainians.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I know you're not po nashemu Smiley Not being odd about that statement, but it's a public forum and we do know each other...  My point is Carpatho-Russians claim Hutsuls, Lemkos, Bojkos and Sub Carpathians as the groups that make up "Carpatho-Rusyns."  It's not like they claim to be a singular entity.  It'd be different if they claimed to be a singular entity like say the Hutsuls.
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« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2009, 07:19:19 PM »



I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
[/quote]

That's what I mean about the double standards of some Ukrainians who post here!  On some replies all you have to do is reverse the national id. and you have the same treatment they cry about regarding their treatment of others.

Orthodoc

Orthodoc
[/quote]

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 
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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2009, 08:44:48 PM »


I am a Ukrainian, and it doesn't matter to me what people call themselves.  If folks don't want to be called Ukrainian, it's there loss.  However, I am certainly not going to stand in their way.

It is a free world.  Call yourselves whatever you want.

In the greater scheme of things it really doesn't matter.


It's all good. 
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« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2009, 10:51:14 PM »

Username:

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.
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« Reply #128 on: October 15, 2009, 09:49:47 AM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.

Wouldn't it be easier for them to move just once?
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« Reply #129 on: October 15, 2009, 10:19:08 AM »

Username:

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
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« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2009, 10:37:56 AM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.

Still, no offence Shultz, hang on here and know I'm not being a pratt...
The Carpatho-Rusyn supporters in the USA claim the whole group consists of four ethnic groups (hutsuls, bojkos, lemkos and sub carpathians).  It isn't as if they are Basques who claim to be one ethnic group living in Spain.
See the difference.  It would be more believable if they claimed themselves as a singular ethnic group with a distinct culture and language. 
Ok, like in Western Ukraine you have some of those four ethnic groups I mentioned.  My friend will say he is Hutsuli but his house flies the Ukrainian Flag.  How can you say, well, a Hutsul is a Carpatho rusyn (like the Carpatho Rusyn supporters say) when he lives in Ukraine?  You can't.  You know why?  Because he may be ethnically a Hutsul be he is a Ukrainian Citizen.  It's like the Carpatho Rusyns think there is an actual country or land that they live in and it is like Ukraine/Slovakia/Poland is holding their people captive and they have claim to all the real ethnic groups they claim to be a part of their "Carpatho-Rus."  I've heard it, not once, not twice but countless times.
Like I said the Carpatho-Rusyns don't claim to be a singular entity.  They claim four ethnic groups that do have documented unique cultural identities and say they belong to "Carpatho-Rusyns."  Um, so, yeah, there is no country called Carpatho-Rus.  There are however Lemkos living in Poland... Hutsuls in Ukraine... etc...
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« Reply #131 on: October 15, 2009, 10:54:22 AM »

No offense taken as I really don't have anything more than an academic interest in this (as a Bachelor in Anthropology).  The question of self identity is one that I've studied quite a bit and one that I have a strong interest in.  Living in Maryland, I come across people who claim to be "Southern" and people who shudder at the idea that Maryland is a "Southern" state (Mason-Dixon line notwithstanding).  I've come to learn to accept each individual's own view of his or her own self identity before anyone else's.

I think my first question to you is to ask if there actually are people living in Sub-Carpathia who first and foremost view themselves as Rusyn before they see themselves as Ukrainian or Slovak or Romanian or Polish.  Forget Hutsul, Lemko, etc.  Are there people who would answer the question, "Who are you?" with the local equivalent of "Rusyn"?

This is an open question and one that I would really like to have a source for.
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« Reply #132 on: October 15, 2009, 11:18:43 AM »

 
Quote

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


WHICH IS THE EXACT SAME THING MANY RUSSIANS SAY ABOUT UKRAINIANS!!!!!!  Which is kind of - 'Don't do WHAT I DO, do what I say'.  If you think you have the right to impose an ethnic identity on a group of people, THEN DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN IT IS DONE TO YOU!

Orthodoc

P.S.  Thanks for your input.  You provided the perfect example of what some of us were talking about when we tried to point out the double standards some (thank God not all) Ukraiians use.


Edited to fix quote tag. 
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« Reply #133 on: October 15, 2009, 03:43:33 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
True true. My Grandfather was of "Basque" ancestory and he most certainly exists.
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« Reply #134 on: October 16, 2009, 12:52:30 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
True true. My Grandfather was of "Basque" ancestory and he most certainly exists.

Basque language is vastly different from Spanish and their customs are different than the Spanish.
"Rusyn" is just a dialect of Ukrainian and the customs they claim as their own are Ukrainian.  Why?  Because what they claim as their own are the ethnic groups that make up the populace of Western Ukraine. 
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