Author Topic: Byzantine Catholic  (Read 24305 times)

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Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2009, 06:08:33 PM »
Whenever I participate in this subject, I ultimately get labeled as a male chauvenist pig--by men and women alike (mostly by Catholics and protestants).  This hurts me because I am very pro-women. 

Mickey,

Then perhaps you should not label those who translate a Greek gender-neutral noun with an English gender-neutral  noun.  They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want.  Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2009, 08:19:26 AM »

Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2009, 08:21:51 AM »
As George points out anthropos is a neutral term so I can't see crying foul when mankind or men is changed to humankind or human as one can when aner is neutered.

The Byzantine Catholic Church already attempted to use "humankind" and it was not accepted well. I believe it was Fr Petro and the Mt St Macrina Nuns.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2009, 08:22:46 AM »
Its a direct quote. I don't alter received texts. That would be an heretical innovation.

Oh, is the original text not in French?  If it is, then could not you feel free to translate it in more inclusive language?

:laugh:

Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2009, 08:27:34 AM »
Really? 

Yes.

Just as the number of those who want the inclusive language was very small, those who are offended by it were also very small.

That is your experience, not mine. I even know Byzantine Catholic priests and deacons who were (are) not happy.   


The vast majority, sadly, could care less one way or another.  

Ah yes. Apathy.

The majority of those upset about the RDL are upset about the musical changes more than anything else unless, again sadly, it is the Liturgy taking longer than an hour.

I know many who are upset because the RDL has shortened their Liturgy--including the Church I was attending.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 08:30:28 AM by Mickey »

Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2009, 08:37:33 AM »
They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want. 

Of course not! We do not know much about the motivation regarding the gender-neutral changes and musical adjustments. The man who orchestrated the musical changes resigned and as you indicated, some Churches remain in defiance even though the RDL was promulgated by the Metropolitan and approved by Rome. Fr Petras was the only one to attempt to discuss the issue, but he has fallen silent also. From my understanding, the Metropolitan will not answer mail or discuss the issue. 

I wrote a letter to Rome in 2007. At least they acknowledged my concerns.  ;D

Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

Wait a minute. Ordaining married men is an ancient tradition. It is even supposed to be permitted in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 08:40:49 AM by Mickey »

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2009, 10:01:52 AM »
They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want. 

Of course not! We do not know much about the motivation regarding the gender-neutral changes and musical adjustments. The man who orchestrated the musical changes resigned and as you indicated, some Churches remain in defiance even though the RDL was promulgated by the Metropolitan and approved by Rome. Fr Petras was the only one to attempt to discuss the issue, but he has fallen silent also. From my understanding, the Metropolitan will not answer mail or discuss the issue. 

I wrote a letter to Rome in 2007. At least they acknowledged my concerns.  ;D

Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

Wait a minute. Ordaining married men is an ancient tradition. It is even supposed to be permitted in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  ;)
Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men? I think not.
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2009, 10:26:10 AM »
Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men?

Who does not acknowledge the salvation of women?!?  :o

Offline John Larocque

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2009, 11:10:46 AM »
Not being either Ruthenian or American puts me at an disadvantage, but I did scan through dozens and dozens of threads and messages at Byzcath.org. It appears to me that the Carpatho-Ruthenians in the USA chose to be within their own "jurisdiction"  or hierarchy rather than under the Ukrainian Catholics. And then they changed the liturgy - ostensibly to "de-Latinise it", but also using "dynamic equivalent" translations that would make ICEL proud.
So the RDL only affects the Carpatho-Ruthenians, not the US Ukrainian Catholics. I don't know much about the Canadian situation as there's only one singular Carpatho-Ruthenian church in the Greater Toronto Area, which (similar to the US) chose not to be under the Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy. In any case, the RDL seems to only affect Carpatho-Ruthenians. Oh, "Carpatho-Ruthenian" seems to be an Eastern Catholic expression, the Orthodox prefer "Carpatho-Russian".



Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2009, 11:14:05 AM »
translations that would make ICEL proud.

How true!  ;D

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2009, 11:40:37 AM »
Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men?

Who does not acknowledge the salvation of women?!?  :o
I guess you.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2009, 11:47:10 AM »
I'm coming into this late, largely because I knew it would degenerate into the linguistic brouhaha that it has. :)

To answer the OP, it really does largely depend on the parish nowadays.  On any given Sunday, the OCA parish I attend now (which has Great Russian roots) is not THAT much different than the Ruthenian Catholic parish I attended that is less than ten miles away.

The main differences from my experience that we do at my current OCA parish that we did not do in my old Ruthenian parish include the taking of all the little litanies (wherever they may be) and the use of the curtain/opening and closing of the door.  Many of the abbreviations I was used to in my Catholic parish are used in my OCA parish (litany before the Lord's prayer springs to mind).  The music is, of course, different, although every now and then I'm treated with a Carpatho-Rusyn melody.  

Of course, my OCA parish has Great Vespers every Saturday evening, something that was lacking in my Catholic parish.  One thing that is practically the same is the common use of the so-called "Vespergy" @ my current parish for many feast days (but not all) that fall on weekdays.  I don't know if this is common throughout the OCA, but it is at St Andrew's in Baltimore.  

There are, of course, the linguistic differences that the Deacon Lance and Mickey are talking about.  The changes introduced in the RDL did not bother my faith so much as it just bothered my sense of what good English should be, particularly the change to "...who loves us all," which smacks of the terrible and simplistic ICEL English I was subjected to while growing up in the Latin-rite.  

I must point out that the RDL was not the reason I ultimately decided to leave the Catholic church and become Orthodox.  While I certainly was not a fan of it when my parish started to use it (at the latest acceptable time, I might add), it did not push me out.  I can understand why other people might feel that way, but it was not such for me.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.  I'm feeling a wee ill and this may not be as coherent as it could. :)
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2009, 11:55:48 AM »
I guess you.

You guess? That is quite an accusation.

I suggest you read a Roman Catholic document called Liturgiam Authenticam. It may open your eyes.

Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2009, 12:01:53 PM »
The changes introduced in the RDL did not bother my faith so much as it just bothered my sense of what good English should be, particularly the change to "...who loves us all," which smacks of the terrible and simplistic ICEL English I was subjected to while growing up in the Latin-rite.  

I must point out that the RDL was not the reason I ultimately decided to leave the Catholic church and become Orthodox.  While I certainly was not a fan of it when my parish started to use it (at the latest acceptable time, I might add), it did not push me out.

Ditto.

And this thread has gone way off track. It is not about the gender neutral language adopted by the Byzantine Catholic Church. I take the blame for the derailment.

The original poster asked for differences in Liturgy between the Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Church--and that is one difference.

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2009, 12:08:46 PM »
I guess you.

You guess? That is quite an accusation.

I suggest you read a Roman Catholic document called Liturgiam Authenticam. It may open your eyes.
Yes master Mickey please open my eyes.  ;) That being said, I don't understand why you are making suck a big stink over gender neutral language. The substance of the faith was not changed one iota just because people wanted to it make it clearer in the liturgy that woman are part of God's plan of Salvation.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 12:09:09 PM by Papist »
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2009, 12:31:53 PM »
Yes master Mickey please open my eyes. 

Why must you be so arrogant?

That being said, I don't understand why you are making such a big stink over gender neutral language.

Go for it Chris! You have free will!  The Byzantine Catholic Church gives you access to the language that you are seeking in the Liturgy.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 12:32:19 PM by Mickey »

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2009, 12:39:40 PM »

Why must you be so arrogant?
You are the one who wanted to open my eyes.  ;D
Go for it Chris! You have free will!  The Byzantine Catholic Church gives you access to the language that you are seeking in the Liturgy.

You still haven't answered my question. Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 12:39:57 PM by Papist »
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2009, 12:46:00 PM »
You are the one who wanted to open my eyes. 

Read it again.  I said that the encyclical might open your eyes.


Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?

Here is your answer.  I am not raising a stink. I answered a question by the original poster according to my experience.  You have insisted on debating the issue. I will reiterate one last time: If you like the gender neutral language in the Liturgy--it is there for you.

My discourse on this topic is finished.

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2009, 01:02:36 PM »
You are the one who wanted to open my eyes. 

Read it again.  I said that the encyclical might open your eyes.


Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?

Here is your answer.  I am not raising a stink. I answered a question by the original poster according to my experience.  You have insisted on debating the issue. I will reiterate one last time: If you like the gender neutral language in the Liturgy--it is there for you.

My discourse on this topic is finished.
You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2009, 03:55:48 PM »
I'll go on record here and state that I really don't like "loves us all"  as it is clunky and unpoetic.  If they really felt the need to change it, it should have been "loves humankind".  Ditto for the Creed.  That said I prefer the older language simply because it sounds better.  As George points out anthropos is a neutral term so I can't see crying foul when mankind or men is changed to humankind or human as one can when aner is neutered.


Fr. Deacon Lance

Then may I suggest "loves all." as an alternative.  Works for me as a woman.

Offline wynd

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2009, 07:10:37 PM »
You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.

Actually, it happened before swine flu  :P

Offline Papist

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2009, 07:15:41 PM »
You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.

Actually, it happened before swine flu  :P
Good point. I don't think it happened before the bird flu right?
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Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2009, 08:52:52 PM »
OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2009, 10:05:37 PM »
OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Grace and Peace,

I've known many 'protestants' would consider themselves 'orthodox Christians' and I've known some Catholics who are 'more observant' who call themselves orthodox Catholics so I'm not sure it 'striking'. I think both Catholics and Orthodox need to remember that the labels which we each use to describe ourselves are actually terms have not been 'historically' used in the exact manner in which we use them today.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2009, 10:17:52 PM »
OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2009, 10:40:37 PM »
I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'.

Both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church believe that they can rightly claim these titles.

Both church consider themselves Roman, Catholic, and Orthodox.  So it can get confusing for people.  I am Catholic, I am Orthodox, and my church is the Roman Church.  We are in communion with the Pope (of Alexandria) (well, one of them anyway...).  ;)

So sometimes people ask me what an "Orthodox Catholic" is.  Talk about a frustrating conversation!

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2009, 11:28:37 PM »
Oh, "Carpatho-Ruthenian" seems to be an Eastern Catholic expression, the Orthodox prefer "Carpatho-Russian".


No, I think the current trend is Carpatho-Rusyn not Carpato-Russian :)

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2009, 11:53:48 PM »
OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.

The Orthodox wannabe's call themselves 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'.  That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or pity the ignorance of such a statement.  All it shows is that what the RCC stated when the Unia was created (See *) still holds true today even though these people are no longer illerate like their ancestors when their church was created in the 16th & 17 centuries.

(*) The RCC believed that  because these peasants were illerate [unable to read or write] they would  never know they are no longer Orthodox. Becuse  they judge everything by what they see and hear.  As long as the outside forms remain the same they will never question.  So we will have them pray for the local bishop in the village churches  (instead of the pope who will only be commemorated in the main Cathedral), and the word 'Pravoslavny' [Orthodox] will remain in the Liturgy. 

So today in the present generation some of them still  think the same as their ancestors.  They judge things by what's on the outside (forms of worship, traditions, etc.) rather than what's in the inside (the RC theology they are obligated to believe in).


Orthodoc
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Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2009, 08:03:12 AM »
Exactly.  We are not in pre-schism times where both terms are still interchangeable between East and West.  Never once, ever, did I or anyone I know in the Roman Catholic Church call themselves "Orthodox".  Why?  Because while church officials understand the difference between the meaning of the actual word Orthodox and the Christian denomination, the laity overall do not.  Perhaps this isn't the case so much in the East but it is in the West.  Although, I once talked to a Lutheran pastor who said.."Oh, well we consider ourselves 'Lutheran Catholic'"...I'm sure you can imagine the blank look I gave him.

Offline rwprof

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2009, 03:44:58 PM »
No, I think the current trend is Carpatho-Rusyn not Carpato-Russian :)

Yes, at least here in Pennsylvaniadoxy  ;)
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Offline Hamartolos

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2009, 07:16:22 PM »
I've known many 'protestants' would consider themselves 'orthodox Christians' and I've known some Catholics who are 'more observant' who call themselves orthodox Catholics so I'm not sure it 'striking'.

I'm happy for you that this has been your experience..however it hasn't been mine so believe it or not it is striking for me to hear that.  I have known many Byzantine Catholics and this was the first anyone said it...and for good reason..as it has already been highlighted...there is no such thing as an "Orthodox in communion with Rome"...Orthodox and orthodox (emphasis on the capitalization) are different things.  My poor judgment was in assuming everyone realized that.

Offline stosh

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2009, 02:11:52 AM »
OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.

The Orthodox wannabe's call themselves 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'.  That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or pity the ignorance of such a statement.  All it shows is that what the RCC stated when the Unia was created (See *) still holds true today even though these people are no longer illerate like their ancestors when their church was created in the 16th & 17 centuries.

(*) The RCC believed that  because these peasants were illerate [unable to read or write] they would  never know they are no longer Orthodox. Becuse  they judge everything by what they see and hear.  As long as the outside forms remain the same they will never question.  So we will have them pray for the local bishop in the village churches  (instead of the pope who will only be commemorated in the main Cathedral), and the word 'Pravoslavny' [Orthodox] will remain in the Liturgy. 

So today in the present generation some of them still  think the same as their ancestors.  They judge things by what's on the outside (forms of worship, traditions, etc.) rather than what's in the inside (the RC theology they are obligated to believe in).


Orthodoc

I agree 800%! I grew tired of trying to bang this into the heads of the "wannabes" over at the "Brand X" forum.

They just don't get it, and are afraid to become Orthodox. They prefer the watered down hybrid they have. ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 02:14:11 AM by stosh »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2009, 11:19:40 AM »

I've never been in a Byzantine Catholic church until this last week.

As I mentioned in another thread on this forum, I had signed up for an iconography class which was taught at a ByzCath church (basement) by an ByzCath priest.

I was hesitant, not wanting to do anything wrong.  However, the people were very nice and didn't make me feel uncomfortable in any way.

Last week, they celebrated the Protection of the Mother of God (for me it's Oct. 14), and as the class was in the evening after work, it just so happened that they were serving Vespers at 6.  I was ushered into the church to attend.  I was completely uncomfortable and again..scared...to do the wrong thing.  How could I, an Orthodox faithful, pray in a ByzCath church?

Once my blood pressure came back to normal, and the dark haze passed from before my eyes, I actually looked around.  They had an iconostasis just like the Orthodox, their icons were just like the Orthodox, the prayers that were being recited were the same as the ones the Orthodox recite, the smell was even similar (although I preferred the incense used in my church.)  If I had not known better, I would have said I was in an Orthodox church...although it was in English where I am used to Ukrainian!  ;-)

Realizing how similar it was....I actually broke out in tears.  Not to say I am better than they (for I personally, am not), however, Orthodoxy is the BEST....and it broke my heart to see these people trying so hard...and being so close....and yet missing the bullseye.  Do you know what I mean?  It truly, truly saddened me.  I cannot tell how sad I felt.

All the people and the clergy were so sweet and nice...and faithful in their own way.  I just wanted to scream at them and ask why they weren't truly Orthodox!?!  What was it that they so much like in Catholicism that kept them from the True Church?   ....or maybe they just don't know any better.  It still makes me sad.

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Offline Father H

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2009, 11:24:54 AM »
At the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church I attended in my city, the Divine Liturgy was extremely abbreviated, at about 45 minutes total. 

World record. I know you can throw away Litany of catechumens, commemorating people on the Litanies of Fervent Supplication and of Departed, sermon, announcements but I still can't believe it can take less than an hour.

If you throw away communion it can.   The practice of infrequent communion, which is a scandal, but nonetheless still exists in many parishes, can "trim" the Liturgy by 15-20 minutes.  Also some can trim the antiphons, even when done "slavic style" quite a bit.   


Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2009, 11:52:21 AM »


Once my blood pressure came back to normal, and the dark haze passed from before my eyes, I actually looked around.  They had an iconostasis just like the Orthodox, their icons were just like the Orthodox, the prayers that were being recited were the same as the ones the Orthodox recite, the smell was even similar (although I preferred the incense used in my church.)  If I had not known better, I would have said I was in an Orthodox church...although it was in English where I am used to Ukrainian!  ;-)

Realizing how similar it was....I actually broke out in tears.  Not to say I am better than they (for I personally, am not), however, Orthodoxy is the BEST....and it broke my heart to see these people trying so hard...and being so close....and yet missing the bullseye.  Do you know what I mean?  It truly, truly saddened me.  I cannot tell how sad I felt.

All the people and the clergy were so sweet and nice...and faithful in their own way.  I just wanted to scream at them and ask why they weren't truly Orthodox!?!  What was it that they so much like in Catholicism that kept them from the True Church?   ....or maybe they just don't know any better.  It still makes me sad.



I think you need a history lesson.  As Ukrainian Orthodox, our Orthodoxy, especially in places like Volynia in Western Ukrainie, was bought with a price.  We were persecuted and still held onto to the Orthodox faith.  You seem sincere, but maybe naive.

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2009, 12:01:37 PM »

Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.



Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2009, 12:58:53 PM »

Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Liz:

As an Orthodox Catholic whose grandparents returned to Holy Orthodoxy when they came here and were free to choose I took no offense and know exactly what you mean.

As a child I once asked my Baba why they came back.  In her broken English she replied - "Because doz poor peoples do not know vat dey are or vat dey want be.  Dey no vant be Roamin Catolick but dey no vant be Pravoslavnye (Orthodox) eider.  Dey neider fish nor foul.  Pray for dem."

The inside looked the same because it's meant to.  That is why so many of them judge their faith by whats on the outside (ritual, customs, etc.) than what's on the inside (theology).  But as the old saying goes - If it looks like a duck, walks with ducks, lives with ducks, eats with ducks, sleeps with ducks, and calls a duck its father...THEN ITS A DUCK EVEN THOUGH IT DRESSES UP LIKE A PEACOCK. In 1596 the RCC decided to take advantage of the fact that the people were still illerate and based everything on what they saw and heard. So as long as things remained the same and they would not know the difference.  Each generation would be latinized until they became full Roman Catholics.  That is why they are trying to delatinize now.

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 01:01:08 PM by Orthodoc »
Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2009, 01:09:55 PM »

Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2009, 01:17:15 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2009, 01:20:55 PM »
Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

You are courageous for saying that in public.

Mark (rwprof) passed into eternal life on Jan 7, 2010.  May his memory be eternal!

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2009, 01:23:09 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



Different!  Where I'm from not many slide over to the Greek Catholics.  You're born into it or married into it.

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2009, 01:37:39 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



Liza:

You can share your stories via PM with me anytime.

Orthodoc
Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »

LOL!

Thanks!

I just might!

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2009, 02:35:46 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



I love your stories Liza. You can share them with me anytime. :)
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

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Re: Byzantine Catholic
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2009, 02:38:15 PM »

LOL!

Thanks!

I just might!



Ah come on, share with the group!!