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Hamartolos
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« on: September 26, 2009, 04:25:02 PM »

Hi All,

This may be a naive question but what liturgical differences are there between Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians?  I understand what theological differences exist, however I haven't been able to find anything on this matter.  Although the DL's of both are quite similar, are there not some differences in the way we worship?  Thanks for any input!
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 11:48:07 PM »

It depends to a great extent on the level of latinisation present in a Byzantine Catholic parish.  In cases where there is lots of latinisation, you might witness strange hybrid liturgical practices that incorporate Western and Eastern elements.   Some Eastern Catholic parishes will at times offer their faithful the option of attending "recited" liturgy, a kind of "low mass", if you will, where nothing is chanted and everything simply recited in speaking tones.    There are some Byzantine Catholic parishes that have done really well in trying to stick to an authentic Eastern liturgical practice (including a few that are so good at it that they are more "Orthodox" in their practice than some Orthodox parishes; i.e., they have excellent chant, are rubrically very precise etc.).  In a parish like this, the only difference you will notice will be the commeration of the Pope here and there in the liturgy.  There are also translation preferences that seem to further distinguish the Orthodox and the Byzantine Catholics in North America.  For example, it seems that Eastern Catholics have a marked preference for finishing prayers with "now and forever and ever" instead of "now and ever and unto ages of ages."  Also, many Catholic parishes will not commemorate important post-schism saints like Gregory Palamas, but some will.
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 12:17:08 AM »

Mctaviix,

As Pravoslavbob said, it all depends.  I'd wait to hear particularly from Schultz (former Byz Catholic and now an Orthodox catechumen) and Fr. Deacon Lance (a Byz Catholic).  They'll have the most in depth answers for you.

From my experience, the Byz Catholics will say that their Liturgy is exactly the same as Orthodox.  However, and I'll let Schultz and Fr. Deacon Lance tackle this, there is a lot of Latinization going on.  Some Byz Catholics are now "compelled" to say "who proceeds from the Father and the Son," the famous filioque. some Byz Catholics to avoid this Latinization have become Orthodox, or, as in one case in Ukraine, they became Eastern Rite Lutherans!
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 12:32:19 AM »

^  I forgot about the filioque clause.  Many Eastern Catholic service books do not include it.  I think some include it as an "option", and others include it with no qualifications.
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2009, 02:11:13 AM »

At the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church I attended in my city, the Divine Liturgy was extremely abbreviated, at about 45 minutes total.  They also offered no Matins services or Great Vespers services at all.  Just one 45 minute Divine Liturgy every week and then liturgies for the 12 Great Feasts and for Pascha.  No filioque clause, and there were several commemorations of the Pope of Rome.

As an aside, their tiny little church is absolutely beautiful.
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2009, 10:19:16 AM »

At the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church I attended in my city, the Divine Liturgy was extremely abbreviated, at about 45 minutes total. 

World record. I know you can throw away Litany of catechumens, commemorating people on the Litanies of Fervent Supplication and of Departed, sermon, announcements but I still can't believe it can take less than an hour.
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2009, 07:52:09 PM »

To start Ukrainian and Capatho-Rusyn Greek Catholics have a distinct usage that is actually older than the Nikonian.  The Antiphons are different and verses after the first are usually omitted, the Typical Pslams are not muched used outisde the Great Fast.  It is common in Greek Catholic Churches to omit the Little Litanies, the Litanies of the Catechumens and the Faithful, and the first Aitesis but not the prayers that go with them.  ACROD practice is similar if not identical.  My own parish uses all the common abbreviations but Liturgy is still an hour.  Not sure how you could get it down to 45 minutes.

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 09:14:15 PM »

Thank you all.  I am a catechumen being chrismated on October 18, God willing.  I'm just trying to find out about this as my friend is Byzantine Catholic and will be coming to that Divine Liturgy.  So, aside from certain omissions and such, a Byzantine Catholic would not see any noticeable differences within an Orthodox (specifically, Antiochian) Liturgy?  Also, does the BC Church have all of the same practices as the Orthodox Church (Same fasting rules, married clergy, etc..)?  Thanks for your continued answers.
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 09:32:08 PM »

  So, aside from certain omissions and such, a Byzantine Catholic would not see any noticeable differences within an Orthodox (specifically, Antiochian) Liturgy?

No, this is not what was said. 

It depends to a great extent on the level of latinisation present in a Byzantine Catholic parish. 

It all depends on the particular Eastern Catholic in question and what they are accustomed to.  But they are bound to notice some things that are the same or similar.

Quote
  Also, does the BC Church have all of the same practices as the Orthodox Church (Same fasting rules, married clergy, etc..)?  Thanks for your continued answers.

Again, it all depends on how faithfully particular parishes or jurisdictions strive to follow Eastern tradition, or how much they have been permitted to do so in the past.  Officially, at least, the current Catholic position on this is that they should all be supported in trying to maintain as authentic Eastern practices as possible, but in reality this does not always happen, not by any means. You are (unwittingly, I know) opening a big can of worms when it comes to the question of Eastern Catholic married clergy (and other canonical disciplines).  I suggest you search the site for discussions on this topic.  It has been a great struggle for Eastern Catholics to maintain this part of their tradition, and some have lost the battle.  There are those who have found ingenious ways to fight this battle.  For the moment, Rome is not particularly hostile to this tradition when it comes to those jurisdictions who have managed to maintain married clergy, so in these cases, yes, they are for now able to have married priests.  I don't really want to get into a protracted discussion on this issue here, maybe you could do the suggested search.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 03:26:15 AM »

Do the Byzantine catholics celebrate the Presanctified liturgy during weekdays in Lent?

I visited a Byzantine catholic church in Sofia a few months ago, it was a weekday liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and lasted about 40 minutes. I don't know what the length is on Sundays.
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2009, 10:17:53 AM »

This may be a naive question but what liturgical differences are there between Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians? 

The revised Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church (2007), uses gender neutral language--including the Creed.  This was particularly painful for me when I was a Byzantine Catholic.
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2009, 11:19:57 AM »

This may be a naive question but what liturgical differences are there between Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians? 

The revised Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church (2007), uses gender neutral language--including the Creed.  This was particularly painful for me when I was a Byzantine Catholic.

Could you give a sample?
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 01:24:35 PM »

Could you give a sample?

The two major examples are:

In the Nicene Creed, instead of: "For us men and for our salvation..."

It reads: "For us and for our salvation..."

And at the dismissal instead of: "For He is good and the Lover of mankind".

It reads: "For He is good and loves us all".
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 01:34:11 PM »

What's wrong with "mankind"?
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 01:35:24 PM »

Could you give a sample?

The two major examples are:

In the Nicene Creed, instead of: "For us men and for our salvation..."

It reads: "For us and for our salvation..."

And at the dismissal instead of: "For He is good and the Lover of mankind".

It reads: "For He is good and loves us all".
Some times I wonder what's wrong with using gender neutral language in the Liturgy as long as its not used in reference to God.
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2009, 02:00:41 PM »

Could you give a sample?

The two major examples are:

In the Nicene Creed, instead of: "For us men and for our salvation..."

It reads: "For us and for our salvation..."

And at the dismissal instead of: "For He is good and the Lover of mankind".

It reads: "For He is good and loves us all".
Some times I wonder what's wrong with using gender neutral language in the Liturgy as long as its not used in reference to God.
Whats more, the original Koine is gender neutral in both cases. "Anthropos" means "human", not "man". The Creed says: "for us anthopous ("humans") and for our salvation...." and the dismissal says "for He is Good and the Philanthropos ("Friend of humans").
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »

What's wrong with "mankind"?
Exactly.
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 02:13:55 PM »

I don't understand the problem. I always understood the term "mankind" to mean humanity in general-not the male sex.

I've always loved the CS term "Chelovekolubets" (Lover of Mankind), and  find it very easy to understand that the term means "lover of humanity".
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 02:23:33 PM »

Why is "mankind" all inclusive but "womankind" not?
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 02:23:41 PM »

Some times I wonder what's wrong with using gender neutral language in the Liturgy
Humanity has always been translated as man, men, mankind, brethren etc.  One of Christ's titles has always been translated as, "the Lover of mankind".  It was not until the 1960's and the emergence of the radical feminist movement that language began to shift toward a neutral translation in an effort to not "offend". This atmosphere of "political correctness" has spread like a virulent plague. 

The Byzantine Catholic revised Divine Liturgy supported a clear agenda to cater to this gender neutral mindset.  The liturgy is suppose to transform the world--not the other way around.

However, if you like this modern gender neutral translation---it is available for you.   Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 02:24:30 PM »

I don't understand the problem. I always understood the term "mankind" to mean humanity in general-not the male sex.

I've always loved the CS term "Chelovekolubets" (Lover of Mankind), and  find it very easy to understand that the term means "lover of humanity".
Amen. God bless you.
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 03:03:12 PM »

Some times I wonder what's wrong with using gender neutral language in the Liturgy
Humanity has always been translated as man, men, mankind, brethren etc.  One of Christ's titles has always been translated as, "the Lover of mankind".  It was not until the 1960's and the emergence of the radical feminist movement that language began to shift toward a neutral translation in an effort to not "offend". This atmosphere of "political correctness" has spread like a virulent plague. 

The Byzantine Catholic revised Divine Liturgy supported a clear agenda to cater to this gender neutral mindset.  The liturgy is suppose to transform the world--not the other way around.

However, if you like this modern gender neutral translation---it is available for you.   Smiley
"Radical Feminist Movemenet'?  That's a pretty loaded expression. How about women who just want to be included?  What is wrong with using "all" instead of mankind or humankind?
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 03:29:41 PM »

Some times I wonder what's wrong with using gender neutral language in the Liturgy
Humanity has always been translated as man, men, mankind, brethren etc.  One of Christ's titles has always been translated as, "the Lover of mankind".  It was not until the 1960's and the emergence of the radical feminist movement that language began to shift toward a neutral translation in an effort to not "offend". This atmosphere of "political correctness" has spread like a virulent plague. 

The Byzantine Catholic revised Divine Liturgy supported a clear agenda to cater to this gender neutral mindset.  The liturgy is suppose to transform the world--not the other way around.

However, if you like this modern gender neutral translation---it is available for you.   Smiley
"Radical Feminist Movemenet'?  That's a pretty loaded expression. How about women who just want to be included?  What is wrong with using "all" instead of mankind or humankind?
Thank you for making this point. Just because the Church want's to emphasis the fact that women are also included in the Salvation that God has provided for us does not amount to radical femenism.
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 03:30:39 PM »

"Radical Feminist Movemenet'?  That's a pretty loaded expression. How about women who just want to be included?  What is wrong with using "all" instead of mankind or humankind?
My wife and many other Byzantine Catholics women were highly offended by the "new" language.  They felt insulted that someone was trying to tell them that they should feel slighted by the words "mankind", "men" or "brethren".

But again Irene, if you like gender neutral politically correct language, it is available for you.
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 03:32:06 PM »

"Radical Feminist Movemenet'?  That's a pretty loaded expression. How about women who just want to be included?  What is wrong with using "all" instead of mankind or humankind?
My wife and many other Byzantine Catholics women were highly offended by the "new" language.  They felt insulted that someone was trying to tell them that they should feel slighted by the words "mankind", "men" or "brethren".

But again Irene, if you like gender neutral politically correct language, it is available for you.
That's fine that your wife felt that way. However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women. The Catholic faith is for the redemption of all.
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2009, 03:32:31 PM »

Thank you for making this point. Just because the Church want's to emphasis the fact that women are also included in the Salvation that God has provided for us does not amount to radical femenism.

The Church has always known and taught the inclusivity of men and women. If you need gender neutral politically correct language to prove this, then you have it in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2009, 03:35:08 PM »

Thank you for making this point. Just because the Church want's to emphasis the fact that women are also included in the Salvation that God has provided for us does not amount to radical femenism.

The Church has always known and taught the inclusivity of men and women. If you need gender neutral politically correct language to prove this, then you have it in the Byzantine Catholic Church!  Grin
What does this have to do with being "politically correct"? This is not politics. This is about what is the best way to preach the faith to this world.
Let me ask you a question Mickey, was the substance of the faith changed by using these translations?
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2009, 03:35:29 PM »

However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women.

Sadly, most were offended by the change.

Yes. The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church is for the redemption of all mankind.  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2009, 03:36:24 PM »

Quote
My wife and many other Byzantine Catholics women were highly offended by the "new" language.  They felt insulted that someone was trying to tell them that they should feel slighted by the words "mankind", "men" or "brethren".

As a woman, and furthermore, one who highly values femininity, I share these sentiments. Of all the terrible things that have happened to me in this life-the loneliness, the rejection, the suffering, the losses,etc., this kind of thing has got to be at the very bottom of the list of "diffcult" things.
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2009, 03:36:42 PM »

However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women.

Sadly, most were offended by the change.

Yes. The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church is for the redemption of all mankind.  Smiley
You are right. It is. This is why we should consider using a tanslation of the liturgy that emphasizes this fact.
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 03:49:31 PM »


That's fine that your wife felt that way. However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women.

As a woman, and an aquaintance of many other women, I would disagree with this statement.

I do not think that most women are offended by the term "mankind".  It's just more stirring of the pot - an blaming the stirring on the women!

It's huMAN, too.  Maybe we should make huWOMAN.

It's just more nitpicking....and rocking the boat unnecessarily.

The less change within the Church the better!

It's not meant to be modernized.  Maybe we should try to remain true to the old ways, not modernize the Church to suit our current likes and dislikes.


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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2009, 03:50:14 PM »

This is why we should consider using a tanslation of the liturgy that emphasizes this fact.

We do not need to consider. It has been done for many years in the Holy Orthodox Church. She has always used mankind, man, men, and brethren. And everyone, male and female have always known that this language is all inclusive (I also prefer thee, thou, and thy but that's another thread). Grin



No one has raised a stink about it until recently. And if you like the gender neutral--it is there for you in the Byzantine Catholic Church (and many protestant denominations)!   Isn't that great papist?!?
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2009, 03:57:10 PM »

As a woman, and an aquaintance of many other women, I would disagree with this statement.

I do not think that most women are offended by the term "mankind".  It's just more stirring of the pot - an blaming the stirring on the women!

It's huMAN, too.  Maybe we should make huWOMAN.

It's just more nitpicking....and rocking the boat unnecessarily.

The less change within the Church the better!

It's not meant to be modernized.  Maybe we should try to remain true to the old ways, not modernize the Church to suit our current likes and dislikes.

God bless you Liza.  Whenever I participate in this subject, I ultimately get labeled as a male chauvenist pig--by men and women alike (mostly by Catholics and protestants).  This hurts me because I am very pro-women.  My wife brought me to the faith. I have known very devout and holy women who taught the faith.  I see that more women go to the Divine Liturgy--even if their husbands do not attend.  And then of course there are the holy female saints--and the greatest of all saints, Our Lady, the Theotokos, the Panaghia, the Holy Mother of God.
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2009, 03:58:57 PM »

Sad that innovations such as mistranslating "anthopos" and "hominem" are not corrected.
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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »

Sad that innovations such as mistranslating "anthopos" and "hominem" are not corrected.

Perhaps you should change the quote from Blaise Pascal at the bottom of your profile.  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2009, 04:18:14 PM »


That's fine that your wife felt that way. However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women.

As a woman, and an aquaintance of many other women, I would disagree with this statement.

I do not think that most women are offended by the term "mankind".  It's just more stirring of the pot - an blaming the stirring on the women!

It's huMAN, too.  Maybe we should make huWOMAN.

It's just more nitpicking....and rocking the boat unnecessarily.

The less change within the Church the better!

It's not meant to be modernized.  Maybe we should try to remain true to the old ways, not modernize the Church to suit our current likes and dislikes.




Great post, Liza! And maybe we should also ban the word "woman", since it has the word "man" in it. Only "lady" should be used...sigh...
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2009, 04:18:54 PM »

The term 'man' does not uniformly imply that the subject is 'male.'

Has the Orthodox Church ever taught that salvation is exclusive to males?  No!  This all seems a bit silly.

Maybe we should make huWOMAN.

Nope.  Still contains 'man.'  It should be 'huPERSON.'

And maybe we should also ban the word "woman", since it has the word "man" in it. Only "lady" should be used...sigh...

Let's not forget that feMALE also contains the word male.  What's a gal to do? Wink
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2009, 04:22:41 PM »

Sad that innovations such as mistranslating "anthopos" and "hominem" are not corrected.

Perhaps you should change the quote at the bottom of your profile.  Wink
Its a direct quote. I don't alter received texts. That would be an heretical innovation.
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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2009, 04:33:15 PM »

I'll go on record here and state that I really don't like "loves us all"  as it is clunky and unpoetic.  If they really felt the need to change it, it should have been "loves humankind".  Ditto for the Creed.  That said I prefer the older language simply because it sounds better.  As George points out anthropos is a neutral term so I can't see crying foul when mankind or men is changed to humankind or human as one can when aner is neutered.


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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2009, 04:37:34 PM »

Its a direct quote. I don't alter received texts. That would be an heretical innovation.

Oh, is the original text not in French?  If it is, then could not you feel free to translate it in more inclusive language?
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« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2009, 04:43:00 PM »

However, that is not necessarily the case for all women and I doubt that it is the case for most women.

Sadly, most were offended by the change.


Really?  Just as the number of those who want the inclusive language was very small, those who are offended by it were also very small.  The vast majority, sadly, could care less one way or another.  The majority of those upset about the RDL are upset about the musical changes more than anything else unless, again sadly, it is the Liturgy taking longer than an hour.

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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2009, 04:44:33 PM »

So, do all Byzantine Catholic churches share this 2007 revision in their liturgies?
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2009, 04:49:44 PM »

Also note, radical feminists want the spelling changed to "womyn".
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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2009, 04:51:06 PM »

So, do all Byzantine Catholic churches share this 2007 revision in their liturgies?

No, the revision was specific to the Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh, and even there not all parishes have adopted it.

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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2009, 04:58:17 PM »

Whenever I participate in this subject, I ultimately get labeled as a male chauvenist pig--by men and women alike (mostly by Catholics and protestants).  This hurts me because I am very pro-women. 

Mickey,

Then perhaps you should not label those who translate a Greek gender-neutral noun with an English gender-neutral  noun.  They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want.  Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2009, 06:08:33 PM »

Whenever I participate in this subject, I ultimately get labeled as a male chauvenist pig--by men and women alike (mostly by Catholics and protestants).  This hurts me because I am very pro-women. 

Mickey,

Then perhaps you should not label those who translate a Greek gender-neutral noun with an English gender-neutral  noun.  They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want.  Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

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Amen Amen Amen to all of the above.
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2009, 08:19:26 AM »

I don't alter received texts.
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2009, 08:21:51 AM »

As George points out anthropos is a neutral term so I can't see crying foul when mankind or men is changed to humankind or human as one can when aner is neutered.

The Byzantine Catholic Church already attempted to use "humankind" and it was not accepted well. I believe it was Fr Petro and the Mt St Macrina Nuns.
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2009, 08:22:46 AM »

Its a direct quote. I don't alter received texts. That would be an heretical innovation.

Oh, is the original text not in French?  If it is, then could not you feel free to translate it in more inclusive language?

laugh
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2009, 08:27:34 AM »

Really? 

Yes.

Just as the number of those who want the inclusive language was very small, those who are offended by it were also very small.

That is your experience, not mine. I even know Byzantine Catholic priests and deacons who were (are) not happy.   


The vast majority, sadly, could care less one way or another.  

Ah yes. Apathy.

The majority of those upset about the RDL are upset about the musical changes more than anything else unless, again sadly, it is the Liturgy taking longer than an hour.

I know many who are upset because the RDL has shortened their Liturgy--including the Church I was attending.
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« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2009, 08:37:33 AM »

They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want. 

Of course not! We do not know much about the motivation regarding the gender-neutral changes and musical adjustments. The man who orchestrated the musical changes resigned and as you indicated, some Churches remain in defiance even though the RDL was promulgated by the Metropolitan and approved by Rome. Fr Petras was the only one to attempt to discuss the issue, but he has fallen silent also. From my understanding, the Metropolitan will not answer mail or discuss the issue. 

I wrote a letter to Rome in 2007. At least they acknowledged my concerns.  Grin

Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

Wait a minute. Ordaining married men is an ancient tradition. It is even supposed to be permitted in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2009, 10:01:52 AM »

They are not all radical feminists, even if their action is something the radical feminists would want. 

Of course not! We do not know much about the motivation regarding the gender-neutral changes and musical adjustments. The man who orchestrated the musical changes resigned and as you indicated, some Churches remain in defiance even though the RDL was promulgated by the Metropolitan and approved by Rome. Fr Petras was the only one to attempt to discuss the issue, but he has fallen silent also. From my understanding, the Metropolitan will not answer mail or discuss the issue. 

I wrote a letter to Rome in 2007. At least they acknowledged my concerns.  Grin

Just as those who support the ordination of married men are not modernists but modernists want ordination of married men too.

Wait a minute. Ordaining married men is an ancient tradition. It is even supposed to be permitted in the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Wink
Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men? I think not.
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« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2009, 10:26:10 AM »

Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men?

Who does not acknowledge the salvation of women?!?  Shocked
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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2009, 11:10:46 AM »

Not being either Ruthenian or American puts me at an disadvantage, but I did scan through dozens and dozens of threads and messages at Byzcath.org. It appears to me that the Carpatho-Ruthenians in the USA chose to be within their own "jurisdiction"  or hierarchy rather than under the Ukrainian Catholics. And then they changed the liturgy - ostensibly to "de-Latinise it", but also using "dynamic equivalent" translations that would make ICEL proud.
So the RDL only affects the Carpatho-Ruthenians, not the US Ukrainian Catholics. I don't know much about the Canadian situation as there's only one singular Carpatho-Ruthenian church in the Greater Toronto Area, which (similar to the US) chose not to be under the Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy. In any case, the RDL seems to only affect Carpatho-Ruthenians. Oh, "Carpatho-Ruthenian" seems to be an Eastern Catholic expression, the Orthodox prefer "Carpatho-Russian".


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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2009, 11:14:05 AM »

translations that would make ICEL proud.

How true!  Grin
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2009, 11:40:37 AM »

Is is an ancient tradition not to acknowledge the salvation of women as well as men?

Who does not acknowledge the salvation of women?!?  Shocked
I guess you.
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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2009, 11:47:10 AM »

I'm coming into this late, largely because I knew it would degenerate into the linguistic brouhaha that it has. Smiley

To answer the OP, it really does largely depend on the parish nowadays.  On any given Sunday, the OCA parish I attend now (which has Great Russian roots) is not THAT much different than the Ruthenian Catholic parish I attended that is less than ten miles away.

The main differences from my experience that we do at my current OCA parish that we did not do in my old Ruthenian parish include the taking of all the little litanies (wherever they may be) and the use of the curtain/opening and closing of the door.  Many of the abbreviations I was used to in my Catholic parish are used in my OCA parish (litany before the Lord's prayer springs to mind).  The music is, of course, different, although every now and then I'm treated with a Carpatho-Rusyn melody.  

Of course, my OCA parish has Great Vespers every Saturday evening, something that was lacking in my Catholic parish.  One thing that is practically the same is the common use of the so-called "Vespergy" @ my current parish for many feast days (but not all) that fall on weekdays.  I don't know if this is common throughout the OCA, but it is at St Andrew's in Baltimore.  

There are, of course, the linguistic differences that the Deacon Lance and Mickey are talking about.  The changes introduced in the RDL did not bother my faith so much as it just bothered my sense of what good English should be, particularly the change to "...who loves us all," which smacks of the terrible and simplistic ICEL English I was subjected to while growing up in the Latin-rite.  

I must point out that the RDL was not the reason I ultimately decided to leave the Catholic church and become Orthodox.  While I certainly was not a fan of it when my parish started to use it (at the latest acceptable time, I might add), it did not push me out.  I can understand why other people might feel that way, but it was not such for me.

I hope I've answered some of your questions.  I'm feeling a wee ill and this may not be as coherent as it could. Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2009, 11:55:48 AM »

I guess you.

You guess? That is quite an accusation.

I suggest you read a Roman Catholic document called Liturgiam Authenticam. It may open your eyes.
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« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2009, 12:01:53 PM »

The changes introduced in the RDL did not bother my faith so much as it just bothered my sense of what good English should be, particularly the change to "...who loves us all," which smacks of the terrible and simplistic ICEL English I was subjected to while growing up in the Latin-rite.  

I must point out that the RDL was not the reason I ultimately decided to leave the Catholic church and become Orthodox.  While I certainly was not a fan of it when my parish started to use it (at the latest acceptable time, I might add), it did not push me out.

Ditto.

And this thread has gone way off track. It is not about the gender neutral language adopted by the Byzantine Catholic Church. I take the blame for the derailment.

The original poster asked for differences in Liturgy between the Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Church--and that is one difference.
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« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2009, 12:08:46 PM »

I guess you.

You guess? That is quite an accusation.

I suggest you read a Roman Catholic document called Liturgiam Authenticam. It may open your eyes.
Yes master Mickey please open my eyes.  Wink That being said, I don't understand why you are making suck a big stink over gender neutral language. The substance of the faith was not changed one iota just because people wanted to it make it clearer in the liturgy that woman are part of God's plan of Salvation.
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« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2009, 12:31:53 PM »

Yes master Mickey please open my eyes. 

Why must you be so arrogant?

That being said, I don't understand why you are making such a big stink over gender neutral language.

Go for it Chris! You have free will!  The Byzantine Catholic Church gives you access to the language that you are seeking in the Liturgy.
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« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2009, 12:39:40 PM »


Why must you be so arrogant?
You are the one who wanted to open my eyes.  Grin
Go for it Chris! You have free will!  The Byzantine Catholic Church gives you access to the language that you are seeking in the Liturgy.

You still haven't answered my question. Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?
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« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2009, 12:46:00 PM »

You are the one who wanted to open my eyes. 

Read it again.  I said that the encyclical might open your eyes.


Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?

Here is your answer.  I am not raising a stink. I answered a question by the original poster according to my experience.  You have insisted on debating the issue. I will reiterate one last time: If you like the gender neutral language in the Liturgy--it is there for you.

My discourse on this topic is finished.
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« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2009, 01:02:36 PM »

You are the one who wanted to open my eyes. 

Read it again.  I said that the encyclical might open your eyes.


Why are you raising such a big stink over something that does not harm the substance of the faith one iota?

Here is your answer.  I am not raising a stink. I answered a question by the original poster according to my experience.  You have insisted on debating the issue. I will reiterate one last time: If you like the gender neutral language in the Liturgy--it is there for you.

My discourse on this topic is finished.
You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.
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« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2009, 03:55:48 PM »

I'll go on record here and state that I really don't like "loves us all"  as it is clunky and unpoetic.  If they really felt the need to change it, it should have been "loves humankind".  Ditto for the Creed.  That said I prefer the older language simply because it sounds better.  As George points out anthropos is a neutral term so I can't see crying foul when mankind or men is changed to humankind or human as one can when aner is neutered.


Fr. Deacon Lance

Then may I suggest "loves all." as an alternative.  Works for me as a woman.
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« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2009, 07:10:37 PM »

You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.

Actually, it happened before swine flu  Tongue
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« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2009, 07:15:41 PM »

You behaved as if it was one of the worst things to happen since swine flu.

Actually, it happened before swine flu  Tongue
Good point. I don't think it happened before the bird flu right?
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« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2009, 08:52:52 PM »

OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 
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« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2009, 10:05:37 PM »

OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Grace and Peace,

I've known many 'protestants' would consider themselves 'orthodox Christians' and I've known some Catholics who are 'more observant' who call themselves orthodox Catholics so I'm not sure it 'striking'. I think both Catholics and Orthodox need to remember that the labels which we each use to describe ourselves are actually terms have not been 'historically' used in the exact manner in which we use them today.
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« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2009, 10:17:52 PM »

OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.
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« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2009, 10:40:37 PM »

I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'.

Both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church believe that they can rightly claim these titles.

Both church consider themselves Roman, Catholic, and Orthodox.  So it can get confusing for people.  I am Catholic, I am Orthodox, and my church is the Roman Church.  We are in communion with the Pope (of Alexandria) (well, one of them anyway...).  Wink

So sometimes people ask me what an "Orthodox Catholic" is.  Talk about a frustrating conversation!
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« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2009, 11:28:37 PM »

Oh, "Carpatho-Ruthenian" seems to be an Eastern Catholic expression, the Orthodox prefer "Carpatho-Russian".


No, I think the current trend is Carpatho-Rusyn not Carpato-Russian Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2009, 11:53:48 PM »

OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.

The Orthodox wannabe's call themselves 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'.  That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or pity the ignorance of such a statement.  All it shows is that what the RCC stated when the Unia was created (See *) still holds true today even though these people are no longer illerate like their ancestors when their church was created in the 16th & 17 centuries.

(*) The RCC believed that  because these peasants were illerate [unable to read or write] they would  never know they are no longer Orthodox. Becuse  they judge everything by what they see and hear.  As long as the outside forms remain the same they will never question.  So we will have them pray for the local bishop in the village churches  (instead of the pope who will only be commemorated in the main Cathedral), and the word 'Pravoslavny' [Orthodox] will remain in the Liturgy. 

So today in the present generation some of them still  think the same as their ancestors.  They judge things by what's on the outside (forms of worship, traditions, etc.) rather than what's in the inside (the RC theology they are obligated to believe in).


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« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2009, 08:03:12 AM »

Exactly.  We are not in pre-schism times where both terms are still interchangeable between East and West.  Never once, ever, did I or anyone I know in the Roman Catholic Church call themselves "Orthodox".  Why?  Because while church officials understand the difference between the meaning of the actual word Orthodox and the Christian denomination, the laity overall do not.  Perhaps this isn't the case so much in the East but it is in the West.  Although, I once talked to a Lutheran pastor who said.."Oh, well we consider ourselves 'Lutheran Catholic'"...I'm sure you can imagine the blank look I gave him.
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« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2009, 03:44:58 PM »

No, I think the current trend is Carpatho-Rusyn not Carpato-Russian Smiley

Yes, at least here in Pennsylvaniadoxy  Wink
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« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2009, 07:16:22 PM »

I've known many 'protestants' would consider themselves 'orthodox Christians' and I've known some Catholics who are 'more observant' who call themselves orthodox Catholics so I'm not sure it 'striking'.

I'm happy for you that this has been your experience..however it hasn't been mine so believe it or not it is striking for me to hear that.  I have known many Byzantine Catholics and this was the first anyone said it...and for good reason..as it has already been highlighted...there is no such thing as an "Orthodox in communion with Rome"...Orthodox and orthodox (emphasis on the capitalization) are different things.  My poor judgment was in assuming everyone realized that.
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« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2009, 02:11:52 AM »

OKK..wellll back to the original topic...Thanks a lot Shultz for your answer and everyone else who answered as well.  I just find it quite interesting as the friend who I was writing about earlier, initially told me she was Orthodox.  So, it is striking to me that although she is actually Catholic, under the jurisdiction of the Pope and Bishop of Rome, she called herself 'Orthodox'. 

Yeah, I've had Byzantine Catholics tell me that before, too.  It's frustrating.

The Orthodox wannabe's call themselves 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'.  That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or pity the ignorance of such a statement.  All it shows is that what the RCC stated when the Unia was created (See *) still holds true today even though these people are no longer illerate like their ancestors when their church was created in the 16th & 17 centuries.

(*) The RCC believed that  because these peasants were illerate [unable to read or write] they would  never know they are no longer Orthodox. Becuse  they judge everything by what they see and hear.  As long as the outside forms remain the same they will never question.  So we will have them pray for the local bishop in the village churches  (instead of the pope who will only be commemorated in the main Cathedral), and the word 'Pravoslavny' [Orthodox] will remain in the Liturgy. 

So today in the present generation some of them still  think the same as their ancestors.  They judge things by what's on the outside (forms of worship, traditions, etc.) rather than what's in the inside (the RC theology they are obligated to believe in).


Orthodoc

I agree 800%! I grew tired of trying to bang this into the heads of the "wannabes" over at the "Brand X" forum.

They just don't get it, and are afraid to become Orthodox. They prefer the watered down hybrid they have. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2009, 11:19:40 AM »


I've never been in a Byzantine Catholic church until this last week.

As I mentioned in another thread on this forum, I had signed up for an iconography class which was taught at a ByzCath church (basement) by an ByzCath priest.

I was hesitant, not wanting to do anything wrong.  However, the people were very nice and didn't make me feel uncomfortable in any way.

Last week, they celebrated the Protection of the Mother of God (for me it's Oct. 14), and as the class was in the evening after work, it just so happened that they were serving Vespers at 6.  I was ushered into the church to attend.  I was completely uncomfortable and again..scared...to do the wrong thing.  How could I, an Orthodox faithful, pray in a ByzCath church?

Once my blood pressure came back to normal, and the dark haze passed from before my eyes, I actually looked around.  They had an iconostasis just like the Orthodox, their icons were just like the Orthodox, the prayers that were being recited were the same as the ones the Orthodox recite, the smell was even similar (although I preferred the incense used in my church.)  If I had not known better, I would have said I was in an Orthodox church...although it was in English where I am used to Ukrainian!  ;-)

Realizing how similar it was....I actually broke out in tears.  Not to say I am better than they (for I personally, am not), however, Orthodoxy is the BEST....and it broke my heart to see these people trying so hard...and being so close....and yet missing the bullseye.  Do you know what I mean?  It truly, truly saddened me.  I cannot tell how sad I felt.

All the people and the clergy were so sweet and nice...and faithful in their own way.  I just wanted to scream at them and ask why they weren't truly Orthodox!?!  What was it that they so much like in Catholicism that kept them from the True Church?   ....or maybe they just don't know any better.  It still makes me sad.

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« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2009, 11:24:54 AM »

At the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic church I attended in my city, the Divine Liturgy was extremely abbreviated, at about 45 minutes total. 

World record. I know you can throw away Litany of catechumens, commemorating people on the Litanies of Fervent Supplication and of Departed, sermon, announcements but I still can't believe it can take less than an hour.

If you throw away communion it can.   The practice of infrequent communion, which is a scandal, but nonetheless still exists in many parishes, can "trim" the Liturgy by 15-20 minutes.  Also some can trim the antiphons, even when done "slavic style" quite a bit.   

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« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2009, 11:52:21 AM »



Once my blood pressure came back to normal, and the dark haze passed from before my eyes, I actually looked around.  They had an iconostasis just like the Orthodox, their icons were just like the Orthodox, the prayers that were being recited were the same as the ones the Orthodox recite, the smell was even similar (although I preferred the incense used in my church.)  If I had not known better, I would have said I was in an Orthodox church...although it was in English where I am used to Ukrainian!  ;-)

Realizing how similar it was....I actually broke out in tears.  Not to say I am better than they (for I personally, am not), however, Orthodoxy is the BEST....and it broke my heart to see these people trying so hard...and being so close....and yet missing the bullseye.  Do you know what I mean?  It truly, truly saddened me.  I cannot tell how sad I felt.

All the people and the clergy were so sweet and nice...and faithful in their own way.  I just wanted to scream at them and ask why they weren't truly Orthodox!?!  What was it that they so much like in Catholicism that kept them from the True Church?   ....or maybe they just don't know any better.  It still makes me sad.



I think you need a history lesson.  As Ukrainian Orthodox, our Orthodoxy, especially in places like Volynia in Western Ukrainie, was bought with a price.  We were persecuted and still held onto to the Orthodox faith.  You seem sincere, but maybe naive.
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« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2009, 12:01:37 PM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.



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« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2009, 12:58:53 PM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Liz:

As an Orthodox Catholic whose grandparents returned to Holy Orthodoxy when they came here and were free to choose I took no offense and know exactly what you mean.

As a child I once asked my Baba why they came back.  In her broken English she replied - "Because doz poor peoples do not know vat dey are or vat dey want be.  Dey no vant be Roamin Catolick but dey no vant be Pravoslavnye (Orthodox) eider.  Dey neider fish nor foul.  Pray for dem."

The inside looked the same because it's meant to.  That is why so many of them judge their faith by whats on the outside (ritual, customs, etc.) than what's on the inside (theology).  But as the old saying goes - If it looks like a duck, walks with ducks, lives with ducks, eats with ducks, sleeps with ducks, and calls a duck its father...THEN ITS A DUCK EVEN THOUGH IT DRESSES UP LIKE A PEACOCK. In 1596 the RCC decided to take advantage of the fact that the people were still illerate and based everything on what they saw and heard. So as long as things remained the same and they would not know the difference.  Each generation would be latinized until they became full Roman Catholics.  That is why they are trying to delatinize now.

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« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2009, 01:09:55 PM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.
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« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2009, 01:17:15 PM »


Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.

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« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2009, 01:20:55 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

You are courageous for saying that in public.

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« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2009, 01:23:09 PM »


Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



Different!  Where I'm from not many slide over to the Greek Catholics.  You're born into it or married into it.
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« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2009, 01:37:39 PM »


Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



Liza:

You can share your stories via PM with me anytime.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »


LOL!

Thanks!

I just might!

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« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2009, 02:35:46 PM »


Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Username, you are correct.  However, I meant that none of the members would have considered themselves Ukrainian.  Many were simply "American" converts with no Slavic background whatsoever - regardless the history of the ByzCath faith.

There was however, one woman who did insist she was Ruthenian....and refused to have blue/yellow on her icon...in order not to make it into a Ukrainian flag...over which she and I had some gently worded discussions.

I truly meant no offense to anyone.

I was just stating that seeing them "trying" to be Orthodox, and yet not "being" Orthodox saddened me.

I know the history of Ukraine, I know all about the battles, the cossacks, the latinization of Western regions of the country.  I know the enormously high price that was paid to preserve Orthodoxy in a land constantly besieged from all ends. 

It ALL saddens me.

I just shared a story...which more often than not, lands me in hot water on this forum! 

I think I should save my stories....maybe keep a journal (for my eyes only) or something.



I love your stories Liza. You can share them with me anytime. Smiley
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« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2009, 02:38:15 PM »


LOL!

Thanks!

I just might!



Ah come on, share with the group!!
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« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2009, 11:55:51 AM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





No, I mean what I said about the history of Orthodox-Ukrainian Catholic Conflict in Volynia during the inter-war period.  For example, the Ukranian Catholics canonized their Bishop Nicholas Charnetsky, a Redemtorist who was sent by Sheptytsky to the Northern part of Volynia (farthest from Galicia) and was instructed to dress in Orthodox vestments and use strictly Orthodox version sof the liturgy with the aim of converting the locak Orthodox Ukrainians into the Ukranian Catholic Church.
During the same time period in Galicia, the local Ukrainian Catholic priests' vestments were different from the vestments used in Orthodox Volynia.  Not remarked so but different enough for Orthodox to see the difference.  Also the practices in Galicia included Latinizations such as the rosary, kneeling at different times during the Divine Liturgy than the Orthodox, not letting children go to communion.  Promotion of the the Sacred heart devotions and many more difference.
Middle-class Orthodox Volynians who refused to become Catholics lost their government/official jobs.  The Roman Catholic Poles  destroyed many Orthodox churches and also tried to take over the Pochaiv monastery.
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« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2009, 04:30:22 PM »

Yes, we seem to think that all the Orthodox-Catholic conflict was around the time of the failed Union of Brest, but it erupted again in the 20th century.
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« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2009, 07:38:35 PM »


Hi Irene,

Not sure why you would say that to me.

Where exactly did I offend Ukrainian Orthodoxy?  Believe me I know the history of Ukraine.  I know the price my ancestors had to pay in order to preserve the Faith.

I was sharing an experience I had in a ByzCatholic church (which wasn't Ukrainian).

Please explain your comment to me, so that I can "learn" from it....and not be so naive for the next time.
If you feel I need a history lesson for saying that I was saddened by the similarity of the ByzCatholic church with my Orthodox church...again, please let me know why I should not have been so.

I am always open to be educated.

Thanks so much.





Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Not to nit pick, but Ukraine has existed as a country for what, <25 years?  The part of Halych  when it voted for Ukrainian independence, also voted on autonomy (which Ukraine denied).

It has come up before:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18038.msg262756.html#msg262756
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16476.msg239511.html#msg239511
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22136.msg336950.html#msg336950
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21462.msg324517.html#msg324517
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21850.msg332283.html#msg332283
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21477.msg324829.html#msg324829
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3982.msg52810.html#msg52810
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22406.msg341358.html#msg341358
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22406.msg341358.html#msg341358

The last one has an interesting link to a contemporary source on St. Alexei Kabalyuk's arrest and imprisonment for Orthodoxy by the AH government.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21490.msg324729.html#msg324729
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« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2009, 08:15:30 PM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

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« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2009, 01:47:32 AM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.

Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The only place I hear someone wax poetic about being Carpatho Russian/Rusyn is in a parish hall over a roast beef dinner deep in the Allegheny mountains of Pennsylvania.  I've never heard a Ukrainian citizen call himself a Carpatho Russian/Rusyn.  Heck, my family is from Halychnya and they've ALWAYS waved the Ukrainian flag under the American Flag on the parish flag pole.  I have friends that spend a lot of time in Western Ukraine, specifically in what an American with a stoic vision would call "Carpatho Rus."
They've never heard of the ethnic group, they all identify themselves as Ukrainians and don't have any qualms about proudly saying they are Hutsuls.  I know this reality is a bitter pill many Pennsylvanians can't swallow.  I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble.  The closest I ever got to an answer from a Ukrainian citizen that lives within the borders of "Carpatho-Rus" who has never seen the mythical creature was that some people way up in the hills speak a different dialect.

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.
 
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« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2009, 10:40:35 AM »

Sure the Byzantine Catholic Church you were in is Ukrainian, sorry Ruthenian... Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics are the grand children and great grandchildren of people who immigrated from the Austrian Hungarian province of Halychyna... which included what is now Western Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia/Southeast Poland.  Point being Iran was once Persia.... Halychyna is now mostly in Ukraine... They'll fight about it and go to the mat about being Carpatho-Rusyn.. but that country doesn't exist.. so in a roundabout way you were in a church of Ukrainian-Americans.


Come now, because there is no country of Carpatho-Rus there are no Carpatho-Rusyns?  There are many ethnic groups that don't have their own country.  There are no Sorbs because their is no Sorbia? Or Lakota, or Assyrians, or Gagauz, or ... well you get the point.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The only place I hear someone wax poetic about being Carpatho Russian/Rusyn is in a parish hall over a roast beef dinner deep in the Allegheny mountains of Pennsylvania.  I've never heard a Ukrainian citizen call himself a Carpatho Russian/Rusyn.  Heck, my family is from Halychnya and they've ALWAYS waved the Ukrainian flag under the American Flag on the parish flag pole.  I have friends that spend a lot of time in Western Ukraine, specifically in what an American with a stoic vision would call "Carpatho Rus."
They've never heard of the ethnic group, they all identify themselves as Ukrainians and don't have any qualms about proudly saying they are Hutsuls.  I know this reality is a bitter pill many Pennsylvanians can't swallow.  I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble.  The closest I ever got to an answer from a Ukrainian citizen that lives within the borders of "Carpatho-Rus" who has never seen the mythical creature was that some people way up in the hills speak a different dialect.

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.
 


It's strange to read responses like this from some Ukrainians while they, as well as other Ukrainins, cry about how the big bad Russians will not let then be what THEY THEMSELVES want to be - Ukrainians!  Talk about having a double standard!  About a month or so ago RT (Russian Televevision) did a segment on those of us who call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn or Carpatho-Russian and live in what is now part of Ukraine.  It seems the Ukraine IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO DOESN'T ACCEPT THEIR IDENTITY!  Those of them that live in what is now part of Poland and Slovakia are accorded thei Carpatho-Rusyn identity.  Once again, double standard!

Orthodoc (Carpatho-Rusyn and proud)


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« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2009, 10:52:44 AM »

I've never whined about the Russians!  I'm friends with most of the Russians that go to the churches in my area.  We don't get into the whole Ukrainian V. Russian thing.  I guess my family could be called Carpatho-Rusyns but they never called themselves that.  They always called themselves Ukrainians. 
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« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2009, 11:11:00 AM »


Orthodoc,

I don't live in Ukraine, and don't know how living situations are for Carpatho-Rusyns there.

Are you saying that Ukraine states that your "identity" doesn't exist?

Here in the U.S. when I attended by teeny tiny Ukrainian school we learned about the Carpatho-Rusyns and the Lemko people, etc.  We even had posters on the boards, and little dolls set up at the festival to show the different ethnicities and their unique national costumes, embroideries, dialects, etc.

My deepest apologies to you if you feel oppressed.  I am being completely honest and heartfelt.

What is that your people seek?  What does it mean that you are "denied your identity?"  Is it just that you want people to acknowledge the different ethnicity or is it something more?

Please...not being facetious....just honestly curious.

I always thought of it as different peoples who comprise the Ukrainian nation.  Just like in the US we have the Southerners with their own personalities and customs, the midwesterners, etc.

I didn't realize these people wanted to be "separate" and weren't happy to be Ukrainians.  Why anyone wouldn't want to be a Ukrainian is beyond me!   Wink

...and as for Russians....I don't recall many of the Ukrainians on this forum ever ripping on the Russians (although there have been a few occurrences).  It's usually vice versa. 

Additionally, Ukraine isn't claiming Russian lands, language, sites, saints, poets, musicians, Church, etc...for it's own.  Ukraine would be very happy to leave Russia to the Russians....as long as Russians leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians. 

Ukraine is definitely not reaching it's hand out to overtake anything Russian.


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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2009, 11:26:42 AM »

Honestly it doesn't matter to me.  Sure my family hails from the Sunny Land of UA.  But first and foremost I am an Orthodox Christian and that triumphs over any ethnic group, Christ came into the world for all!  I am proud to be an American, the land MY family immigrated to, I am the result of their hard work and dreams.  I honour my heritage and enjoy my Ukrainian traditions and language.  But whether a person is ethnically a Carpatho Rus or a descendant of St. Melk (haha where's Irish Melkite when we need him for that one?) if they live in the USA and have citizenship they in fact are American.

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« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2009, 12:30:23 PM »


Orthodoc,

I don't live in Ukraine, and don't know how living situations are for Carpatho-Rusyns there.

Are you saying that Ukraine states that your "identity" doesn't exist? Here in the U.S. when I attended by teeny tiny Ukrainian school we learned about the Carpatho-Rusyns and the Lemko people, etc.  We even had posters on the boards, and little dolls set up at the festival to show the different ethnicities and their unique national costumes, embroideries, dialects, etc.

My deepest apologies to you if you feel oppressed.  I am being completely honest and heartfelt.

What is that your people seek?  What does it mean that you are "denied your identity?"  Is it just that you want people to acknowledge the different ethnicity or is it something more?Please...not being facetious....just honestly curious.

I always thought of it as different peoples who comprise the Ukrainian nation.  Just like in the US we have the Southerners with their own personalities and customs, the midwesterners, etc.

I didn't realize these people wanted to be "separate" and weren't happy to be Ukrainians.  Why anyone wouldn't want to be a Ukrainian is beyond me!   Wink

...and as for Russians....I don't recall many of the Ukrainians on this forum ever ripping on the Russians (although there have been a few occurrences).  It's usually vice versa. 

Additionally, Ukraine isn't claiming Russian lands, language, sites, saints, poets, musicians, Church, etc...for it's own.  Ukraine would be very happy to leave Russia to the Russians....as long as Russians leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians. 

Ukraine is definitely not reaching it's hand out to overtake anything Russian.




Liz:

According to what I've read in the Carpatho Russian newspapaer and the documentary I watched on TV the answer is YES! The Lemko's living in Ukraine are indeed being told their identity does noy exist which they are recognized in both Poland and Slovaka as I have stated.

If you asked my grandfather (who came over in 1905) if he was Uktainian his answer would be NO!  He identified himself as amalo Rus or Carpatho Russian and his language was Ponashomo (spelling)!

And indeed the Ukraine continues to deny the Lemkos a separate identity.  There may be others that know more than I.  Deacon Lance perhaps.  Or members of the ACROD.

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« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
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« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2009, 02:15:42 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!



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« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2009, 02:18:32 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!


LOL, I agree Liza. But I guess what I was asking is what distinguishes a Ukrainian from a Ruthenian, from a Carpatho-Rusyn, from (am I leaving anyone out?)

I am third generation American. The Ukrainian heritage I know is obviously a watered down version from those living in the country. Also, my ancestors were from Galicia, and technically immigrated from Poland, so I'm not sure how that plays into things.

So what makes someone distinguishibly Ukrainian?
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« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2009, 04:27:03 PM »

Quote
According to what I've read in the Carpatho Russian newspapaer and the documentary I watched on TV the answer is YES! The Lemko's living in Ukraine are indeed being told their identity does noy exist which they are recognized in both Poland and Slovaka as I have stated.

If you asked my grandfather (who came over in 1905) if he was Uktainian his answer would be NO!  He identified himself as amalo Rus or Carpatho Russian and his language was Ponashomo (spelling)!

And indeed the Ukraine continues to deny the Lemkos a separate identity.  There may be others that know more than I.  Deacon Lance perhaps.  Or members of the ACROD.

Orthodoc

What was the name of the newspaper you were reading?
 Is it available on line?
Have you read any of the books by Prof. Magocsi on the Carpatho-Rusyns?  He is also the President of the World Free Congress of Rusyns.  he does not use the terminology "Carpatho-Russian."

In addition to the Rusyn organizations and fraternal clubs, there are also various Lemko orgainizations.  The Lemkos seem to be better organized than let's say the Boykos or the Hutsuly.












































































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« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2009, 04:48:13 PM »


Oh, that's easy.

All it takes is someone who is proud and wants to be Ukrainian!

Nothing to it.

If someone feels they aren't, well, then they aren't.  You can't force someone to be something they feel they aren't, or don't want to be.

I work with a Pakistani who is a refugee here in the U.S.  He wants to stay here, yet, he doesn't want to attain U.S. citizenship because that means he would have to give up his Pakistani citizenship.
So, while he lives in the U.S. he is not an American, he is Pakistani.

I also have a friend who was adopted as a child into a Ukrainian family living in the U.S.  He considers himself to be an American of Ukrainian heritage.
He speaks very little Ukrainian, but, knows the history, feels the pain and the pride of the people of Ukraine.

When tests were done on him a few years back, it was shown that his actual ancestry hails from Scotland and England.
Even knowing this, he is still a proud Ukrainian - without a drop of Ukrainian blood in him.
THAT'S what makes a Ukrainian.  He wants to be one.  God bless him!

I for one am proud and happy to be Ukrainian!   Cheesy
...and American....

.....but, foremost Orthodox!  Orthodox before and beyond all!


LOL, I agree Liza. But I guess what I was asking is what distinguishes a Ukrainian from a Ruthenian, from a Carpatho-Rusyn, from (am I leaving anyone out?)

I am third generation American. The Ukrainian heritage I know is obviously a watered down version from those living in the country. Also, my ancestors were from Galicia, and technically immigrated from Poland, so I'm not sure how that plays into things.

So what makes someone distinguishibly Ukrainian?

That's the thing, the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim Lemke, Bojkos, Hutsuli and sub-carpathians as the groups that make up "Carpatho-Rusyns.  What makes them distinguishable from Ukrainians?  Well, last I checked say Hutsuls call themselves Ukrainian so really, um, nothing... The biggest difference is in the separate Greek Catholic Churches and Orthodox jurisdictions in the USA...   Ruthenian Byzantine (Greek) Catholics --- Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church... Ukraininan Orthodox EP and American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese EP.  From what I gather from many people who have spent more than a 5 day vacation in Western Ukraine the differences that exist in the churches in the USA aren't seen in Ukraine.  Possibly the biggest difference is in Slovakia the Greek Catholics use Slovak, in Ukraine the Greek Catholics use Ukrainian. In the whole area the canonical Orthodox use Church Slavonic.
I mean one can list the liturgical differences between the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics/ACROD v. Ukrainian  Orthodox EP and the Ukrainian Greek CAtholics (which doesn't line up with the Ukrainian Orthodox traditions completely).  But from what I gather these are differences experienced mainly in the USA not the old country.  Otherwise we sing the same Christmas Carols, wear the same ethnic costumes, eat the same pyrohy, and so forth.  Why?  You can guess my answer.
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« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2009, 06:22:05 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns
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« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2009, 06:41:20 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

The short story of the Rusyns in Ukraine can be seen on -

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/


It's the piece on You Tube called the Rusyns.

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« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2009, 10:52:24 PM »

On the matter of "ethnicity", be it cultural or by "blood-relation": Consider the situation of a very dear friend of mine, whose confirmed ethnic origins are Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Latvian and Swedish (given this mix, there may well be other ethnic strands in his makeup), whose parents and maternal grandparents emigrated to an English-speaking country in the 1940s, the country of this person's birth. What ethnicity or culture could, or "should", this person identify with?

Folks, having a cultural hook to hang your hat on is all very well and good, but, for countless millions in the world, so many of us are mongrels (in the proper sense of the word), myself and my friend included. My own ancestry is almost as mixed as that of my friend's. When it comes to being Orthodox, does this truly matter? And when ethnic or cultural identity becomes a source of division or discord among Orthodox believers, what does this say?  Undecided Cry
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« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2009, 11:11:59 PM »

On the matter of "ethnicity", be it cultural or by "blood-relation": Consider the situation of a very dear friend of mine, whose confirmed ethnic origins are Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Latvian and Swedish (given this mix, there may well be other ethnic strands in his makeup), whose parents and maternal grandparents emigrated to an English-speaking country in the 1940s, the country of this person's birth. What ethnicity or culture could, or "should", this person identify with?

Folks, having a cultural hook to hang your hat on is all very well and good, but, for countless millions in the world, so many of us are mongrels (in the proper sense of the word), myself and my friend included. My own ancestry is almost as mixed as that of my friend's. When it comes to being Orthodox, does this truly matter? And when ethnic or cultural identity becomes a source of division or discord among Orthodox believers, what does this say?   Undecided Cry

Exactly!  I'm Carpatho-Rusyn on my mom's side and Polish and Croatian on my dad's.  Only thing it ever meant to me as a kid was when my mom was mad at me I was a dumb polock, and when my dad was mad at me I was stubborn thick headed Russian!  Could never win.  Maybe that's why I'm so proud to be just an American!

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« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2009, 11:34:10 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy
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« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2009, 12:59:45 AM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

My Grandma on my Father's side said pirohi, but she said she was Slovak! She was baptized Greek Catholic in Northampton, Pa, but her brother was baptized Orthodox in Central City, Pa. She said her Dad was Ukrainian, her mother Slovak, but the villages weren't that far apart! Where does this end, or begin, or end! Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Ukrainian, Slovak, Rusyn!

I know I'm Italian on my mothers side! Roll Eyes
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« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2009, 09:38:43 AM »


It's not such a bad thing as everyone seems to make it out to be.

First and foremost comes the Faith - regardless the nationality, ethnicity, race, etc.  Orthodoxy above ALL else.

Second, you have every right to be proud of your heritage.  No heritage, ethnicity, race, etc...is any better than any other.  However, you have the right to be proud of what you feel is your nationality.  You have a right to stick to your customs, your language, your traditions...  Just don't force them on anyone else.

Here, in the U.S. we are a melting pot of many cultures and nationalities.  Therefore, here we do need to make an "American" Orthodox church available for the people who do not associate themselves with any other nationality. 

...and yet, we should still be allowed to have our Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox churches in the States....people shouldn't be offended by them....nor should they claim that we chose nationality over Orthodoxy...for that is not correct.

I choose Orthodoxy above all.  However, since I was raised in a Ukrainian family, I spoke to God in Ukrainian from childhood, and therefore, hearing the Liturgy in Ukrainian touches my soul way more than hearing it in English.  It's not that I don't like it in English, I love the Liturgy no  matter what language is used.  However, I prefer Ukrainian...and others shouldn't be threatened by that.

Just last week I went to a Serbian church and I understand "very" little.  However, I know the Liturgy and I was fine with it.  So, I know how the English speakers feel in my Ukrainian church. 

I've been to many OCA churches where services are completely in English, yet, I still prefer Ukrainian.

However, if a Ukrainian Orthodox church was not around...believe me I would pick ANY other language...as long as it was an Orthodox Church.

Got it?

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and going to worship where you feel more comfortable.


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« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2009, 10:15:03 AM »

What's odd is that I am english-speaking,and yet  for the most part I prefer the services to be in Church Slavonic, because that's what I'm used to! Everytime I hear them in English, it makes me wince, because it sounds so terribly awkward. Being able to understand the basic structure of the service in CS is very helpful when attending other Orthodox services,such as Ukrainian and Serbian. I sang in the choir at a Serbian church for awhile, and basically, as far as I could tell, everything was the same, except they placed the accent on different syllables at times. However, I could never understand the sermon, which was preached in Serbian, which always bothered me.
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« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2009, 10:28:32 AM »


Exactly so!

That's why when my own priest is out of town, I prefer the Serbian Church - I can understand the Church Slavonic.

Of course, I can understand the English at the OCA church down the road, but, it's that "slavic" language that makes my soul sing.  It's what I grew up with...and what gives me true satisfaction.

I am truly lucky for I live in a vicinity where there are a number of different Orthodox Churches.

I have visited them ALL!  And I love them ALL....but, prefer Slavic.  Just a personal preference...not that one is better than the other.

I've been to Greek, Romanian, OCA (English), Coptic, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Antiochian...

My part of the US...is rich with Orthodox faithful!  Glory be to God!

...and we do all get together and celebrate.  It's amazing to see.  We have a "council" that binds us all together for fundraisers, special events (dinners/dance), religious classes and seminars, and of course Lenten Vespers. 

Truly amazing!

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« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

My Grandma on my Father's side said pirohi, but she said she was Slovak! She was baptized Greek Catholic in Northampton, Pa, but her brother was baptized Orthodox in Central City, Pa. She said her Dad was Ukrainian, her mother Slovak, but the villages weren't that far apart! Where does this end, or begin, or end! Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Ukrainian, Slovak, Rusyn!

I know I'm Italian on my mothers side! Roll Eyes

LOL.  The Carpatho-Russian priest who chrismated me had an Italian mother: first time she met the family she saw plates of pirohi, and, thinking "oh, ravioli" poured tomato sauce over them all.  The priest said not so bad for the poatato and sour craut, but the jam filled ones....

Said priest was fresh out of St. Vlad's, and relished the idea of sticking the stake through the Slavonic, for which I upbraided him.  I don't have a drop of Slavic blood (that I know of), but people in the parish went out of their way to try to say "Christ in risen" in Arabic, the DL alternated parts from Slavonic and English (and Greek), so if it was Slavonic this week it would be English next (eventuall a moot point for me, as I started learning the Slavonic).  "I didn't make the Church, this Church was here.  This is their heritage, and they welcomed me.  I'm not Carpatho-Russian, and I don't have a problem.  Why do you?" asked.

When I first went to the parish (SS Peter and Paul in Chicago, btw), I had never heard of Carpatho-Russians.  I knew of Ukrainians, as my first love was UCC from Poland (she taught me the distinction between Russians and Ukrainians).  I recognized the recension of Slavonic, and I asked the priest at our first meeting "are you guys Ukrainians?"  "Well," he said "we were on the one side of the mountain, and the Ukrainians were on the other side."  "Yes," I continued, "and every Sunday you both went to Church and thanked God for the mountain." Tongue
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« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2009, 03:29:57 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Languages are dead when they're not spoken at home and in society.  How many people speak "Rusyn"?
How many FOR real not figures made up by the carpatho rusyn society?  Exactly.  It's a dialect of Ukrainian period if anyone really speaks it outside the home.  And people wonder why the Carpatho-Rusyns aren't recognized as a distinct minority, it is because they are Ukrainians.  It's all an ethnic idea created in the minds of Americans and perpetuated by a few in Ukraine/Slovakia.  What I don't get is the whole idea of "Carpatho-Rusyns" identity claims the ethnic groups that make up the Western Ukrainian people.  So those people live in Ukraine, say Hutsuls, which the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim are Carpatho Rusyn.  Well, Hutsuls live in Ukraine, that makes them Ukrainian.  It doesn't make them "Carpatho-Rusyn."  Why?  Because that is the country they live in.  Carpatho-Rusyn is an umbrella term that they claim encompasses Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls and Sub-Carpathians... so it's not one identity. So it's not like saying "Carpatho-Rusyns" consist of a solitary identity.  That would be easier to buy, much like the Lemkos saying they are an ethnic group.  But the Lemkos don't say "oh we're a distinct ethnic group that encompasses four or so OTHER ethnic groups."  Problem is those four groups in Ukraine happen to be citizens of Ukraine not "Carpatho-Rus."  That is the problem.  It's not as if those in the states are claiming the "carpatho Rusyns" are just Carpatho-Rusyns."  No they are claiming four distinct ethnic groups belong to them. 
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« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2009, 03:34:50 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

Haha Johnstown, PA!! That's like the centre of the Carpatho-Rusyn identity, you won't find many there calling themselves "Ukrainian Americans" save for the dozen or so that go to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (EP) that's like four blocks from the ACROD Cathedral.
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« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2009, 03:43:02 PM »

Quote
You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?

Actually both sides of my family are from the Johnstown PA area... but alas, I'm not Ukrainian.
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« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2009, 03:45:49 PM »

So I guess a fair question is, what does it mean to be Ukrainian?

Thoughts?
Hmmm?  What does it mean to be a Ukranian American?

You enjoy saying peroHy instead of perogy?  You enjoy saying golubtsi instead of holupki?  You line your Pascha basket with orange, yellow, and black striped towels?  You enjoy dressing your entire family in matching Ukrainian shirts for Feast Day Liturgies?  You enjoy darker colored Pysanki and start making them on Bright Tuesday?  You always braid your little girls' hair?  You have many relatives from around Johnstown, Pa?  You are distantly related to most with family (last) names that end with "ko"?  (I am joking with you.)  Cheesy

Haha Johnstown, PA!! That's like the centre of the Carpatho-Rusyn identity, you won't find many there calling themselves "Ukrainian Americans" save for the dozen or so that go to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (EP) that's like four blocks from the ACROD Cathedral.

I didn't know there was a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnstown. There are 3 Orthodox churches in that small town.  Imagine if we could all be united under one American church.............

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« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2009, 04:00:34 PM »


It's not such a bad thing as everyone seems to make it out to be.

First and foremost comes the Faith - regardless the nationality, ethnicity, race, etc.  Orthodoxy above ALL else.

Second, you have every right to be proud of your heritage.  No heritage, ethnicity, race, etc...is any better than any other.  However, you have the right to be proud of what you feel is your nationality.  You have a right to stick to your customs, your language, your traditions...  Just don't force them on anyone else.

Here, in the U.S. we are a melting pot of many cultures and nationalities.  Therefore, here we do need to make an "American" Orthodox church available for the people who do not associate themselves with any other nationality. 

...and yet, we should still be allowed to have our Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian Orthodox churches in the States....people shouldn't be offended by them....nor should they claim that we chose nationality over Orthodoxy...for that is not correct.

I choose Orthodoxy above all.  However, since I was raised in a Ukrainian family, I spoke to God in Ukrainian from childhood, and therefore, hearing the Liturgy in Ukrainian touches my soul way more than hearing it in English.  It's not that I don't like it in English, I love the Liturgy no  matter what language is used.  However, I prefer Ukrainian...and others shouldn't be threatened by that.

Just last week I went to a Serbian church and I understand "very" little.  However, I know the Liturgy and I was fine with it.  So, I know how the English speakers feel in my Ukrainian church. 

I've been to many OCA churches where services are completely in English, yet, I still prefer Ukrainian.

However, if a Ukrainian Orthodox church was not around...believe me I would pick ANY other language...as long as it was an Orthodox Church.

Got it?

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and going to worship where you feel more comfortable.



My post was silly because I am a silly person (when outside of my job). Please forgive me if I have offended anyone.  If you enjoy participating and learning about other cultures, your Orthodox friends can provide hours of fascination.  What I REALLY wish is that my church had a strong influence of Young American culture  (LOTS of young families and their MANY children attending).  Sadly, this is lacking.
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« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2009, 04:15:39 PM »

One could ask what are the differences between any of the Eastern Slavs: Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns.  They share the same alphabet, related language, cultural and religious traditions.  For Rusyns the language is related to, but distinct from, Ukrainian and contains simialrities to Slovak.  Lack of a seperate political entity has led to the Ukrainiazation, Slovakization, and Magyarization of many, even the majority, of Rusyns found in those nations.  Fr. Dmitri Sidor, an Orthodox (UOC-MP) priest , leads the Rusyn recognition movement in Ukraine.  Frs. Josaphat and Gorazd Timkovic, Greek Catholic priests, lead it in Slovakia.  The following sites give pretty good info:

http://www.carpathorusynsociety.org/whoarerusyns.htm

http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

Languages are dead when they're not spoken at home and in society.  How many people speak "Rusyn"?
How many FOR real not figures made up by the carpatho rusyn society?  Exactly.  It's a dialect of Ukrainian period if anyone really speaks it outside the home.  And people wonder why the Carpatho-Rusyns aren't recognized as a distinct minority, it is because they are Ukrainians.  It's all an ethnic idea created in the minds of Americans and perpetuated by a few in Ukraine/Slovakia.  What I don't get is the whole idea of "Carpatho-Rusyns" identity claims the ethnic groups that make up the Western Ukrainian people.  So those people live in Ukraine, say Hutsuls, which the "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim are Carpatho Rusyn.  Well, Hutsuls live in Ukraine, that makes them Ukrainian.  It doesn't make them "Carpatho-Rusyn."  Why?  Because that is the country they live in.  Carpatho-Rusyn is an umbrella term that they claim encompasses Lemkos, Bojkos, Hutsuls and Sub-Carpathians... so it's not one identity. So it's not like saying "Carpatho-Rusyns" consist of a solitary identity.  That would be easier to buy, much like the Lemkos saying they are an ethnic group.  But the Lemkos don't say "oh we're a distinct ethnic group that encompasses four or so OTHER ethnic groups."  Problem is those four groups in Ukraine happen to be citizens of Ukraine not "Carpatho-Rus."  That is the problem.  It's not as if those in the states are claiming the "carpatho Rusyns" are just Carpatho-Rusyns."  No they are claiming four distinct ethnic groups belong to them. 

I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.
http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
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« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2009, 06:14:04 PM »

Username!,

I would guess somewhere from 60,000 (official numbers reported by countries with significant Rusyn populations) to 1.2 million (2001 Census for Zarkarpattia Oblast) speak Rusyn as their first language.  Does the Ukrainian government refuse to list people as Rusyn or register their language as Rusyn?  Why is it okay for the Ukrainians to claim the Lemkos, Hutsuls, Boykos, etc. but not the Carpatho-Rusyns?  Rather hypocritical I think.  Lemkos live in Poland does that make them Polish?  I think not.  For the record I am not Carpatho-Rusyn myself, my Greek Catholic ancestors were Slovak, really Slovak not just Slovakized-Rusyns, but I belong to a Church that is primarily Carpatho-Rusyn.   However, I don't argue with people about what they are, whether they claim to be Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Magyar is fine with me.  I just find it wrong when one group tries to tell another group what they are, be that Russians telling Ukrainians they are really Russians or Ukrainians telling Rusyns they are really Ukrainians.

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« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2009, 06:27:25 PM »


[/quote]

I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
[/quote]

That's what I mean about the double standards of some Ukrainians who post here!  On some replies all you have to do is reverse the national id. and you have the same treatment they cry about regarding their treatment of others.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2009, 07:11:26 PM »

Username!,

I would guess somewhere from 60,000 (official numbers reported by countries with significant Rusyn populations) to 1.2 million (2001 Census for Zarkarpattia Oblast) speak Rusyn as their first language.  Does the Ukrainian government refuse to list people as Rusyn or register their language as Rusyn?  Why is it okay for the Ukrainians to claim the Lemkos, Hutsuls, Boykos, etc. but not the Carpatho-Rusyns?  Rather hypocritical I think.  Lemkos live in Poland does that make them Polish?  I think not.  For the record I am not Carpatho-Rusyn myself, my Greek Catholic ancestors were Slovak, really Slovak not just Slovakized-Rusyns, but I belong to a Church that is primarily Carpatho-Rusyn.   However, I don't argue with people about what they are, whether they claim to be Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, Magyar is fine with me.  I just find it wrong when one group tries to tell another group what they are, be that Russians telling Ukrainians they are really Russians or Ukrainians telling Rusyns they are really Ukrainians.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I know you're not po nashemu Smiley Not being odd about that statement, but it's a public forum and we do know each other...  My point is Carpatho-Russians claim Hutsuls, Lemkos, Bojkos and Sub Carpathians as the groups that make up "Carpatho-Rusyns."  It's not like they claim to be a singular entity.  It'd be different if they claimed to be a singular entity like say the Hutsuls.
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« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2009, 07:19:19 PM »



I knew a Romanian who became Rusyn.  There are some there.

Go to the Dombass and Crimea tell the Russians there that living in Urkaine makes them Ukrainian.

other link:
http://www.rusyn.org/rusyns-language.html
http://www.rusyn.org/images/2.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Norm%20in%20Slovakia.pdf
Select Aspects of the Rusyn Language Norm in Slovakia

Some years ago Rusyn got the position of a minority language in Slovakia, and a language academy was set up, schools, and a doctorare defended at Bratislava in the language.
http://www.rusynacademy.sk/english/e_3.htm
http://www.rusyn.org/events.html
http://pecina.cz/files/www.ce-review.org/01/14/pozun14.html
 Btw, as this shows:
http://www.rusyn.org/images/4.%20Rusyn%20Language%20Question%20Revisted.pdf
Magocsi, Paul Robert. “The Rusyn Language Question Revisited (1995).” In Paul Robert Magocsi, Of the Making of Nationalities There Is No End, Vol. I. New York: Columbia University Press/East European Monographs, 1999, pp. 86-111.
the communists Ukrainianized the Rusyn (or tried to, most went Slovak).  They were recognized by the local authorities in Ukraine, but the central Ukrainian authorities tries to deny their existence, IOW, act as they accuse the Great Russians.http://zakarpattya.net.ua/zol/loadnews.asp?id=6837&np=1
[/quote]

That's what I mean about the double standards of some Ukrainians who post here!  On some replies all you have to do is reverse the national id. and you have the same treatment they cry about regarding their treatment of others.

Orthodoc

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[/quote]

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 
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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2009, 08:09:22 PM »

Username:

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2009, 08:44:48 PM »


I am a Ukrainian, and it doesn't matter to me what people call themselves.  If folks don't want to be called Ukrainian, it's there loss.  However, I am certainly not going to stand in their way.

It is a free world.  Call yourselves whatever you want.

In the greater scheme of things it really doesn't matter.


It's all good. 
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« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2009, 10:51:14 PM »

Username:

Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.
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« Reply #128 on: October 15, 2009, 09:49:47 AM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

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As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.

Wouldn't it be easier for them to move just once?
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« Reply #129 on: October 15, 2009, 10:19:08 AM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
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« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2009, 10:37:56 AM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.

Still, no offence Shultz, hang on here and know I'm not being a pratt...
The Carpatho-Rusyn supporters in the USA claim the whole group consists of four ethnic groups (hutsuls, bojkos, lemkos and sub carpathians).  It isn't as if they are Basques who claim to be one ethnic group living in Spain.
See the difference.  It would be more believable if they claimed themselves as a singular ethnic group with a distinct culture and language. 
Ok, like in Western Ukraine you have some of those four ethnic groups I mentioned.  My friend will say he is Hutsuli but his house flies the Ukrainian Flag.  How can you say, well, a Hutsul is a Carpatho rusyn (like the Carpatho Rusyn supporters say) when he lives in Ukraine?  You can't.  You know why?  Because he may be ethnically a Hutsul be he is a Ukrainian Citizen.  It's like the Carpatho Rusyns think there is an actual country or land that they live in and it is like Ukraine/Slovakia/Poland is holding their people captive and they have claim to all the real ethnic groups they claim to be a part of their "Carpatho-Rus."  I've heard it, not once, not twice but countless times.
Like I said the Carpatho-Rusyns don't claim to be a singular entity.  They claim four ethnic groups that do have documented unique cultural identities and say they belong to "Carpatho-Rusyns."  Um, so, yeah, there is no country called Carpatho-Rus.  There are however Lemkos living in Poland... Hutsuls in Ukraine... etc...
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« Reply #131 on: October 15, 2009, 10:54:22 AM »

No offense taken as I really don't have anything more than an academic interest in this (as a Bachelor in Anthropology).  The question of self identity is one that I've studied quite a bit and one that I have a strong interest in.  Living in Maryland, I come across people who claim to be "Southern" and people who shudder at the idea that Maryland is a "Southern" state (Mason-Dixon line notwithstanding).  I've come to learn to accept each individual's own view of his or her own self identity before anyone else's.

I think my first question to you is to ask if there actually are people living in Sub-Carpathia who first and foremost view themselves as Rusyn before they see themselves as Ukrainian or Slovak or Romanian or Polish.  Forget Hutsul, Lemko, etc.  Are there people who would answer the question, "Who are you?" with the local equivalent of "Rusyn"?

This is an open question and one that I would really like to have a source for.
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« Reply #132 on: October 15, 2009, 11:18:43 AM »

 
Quote

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


WHICH IS THE EXACT SAME THING MANY RUSSIANS SAY ABOUT UKRAINIANS!!!!!!  Which is kind of - 'Don't do WHAT I DO, do what I say'.  If you think you have the right to impose an ethnic identity on a group of people, THEN DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN IT IS DONE TO YOU!

Orthodoc

P.S.  Thanks for your input.  You provided the perfect example of what some of us were talking about when we tried to point out the double standards some (thank God not all) Ukraiians use.


Edited to fix quote tag. 
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« Reply #133 on: October 15, 2009, 03:43:33 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
True true. My Grandfather was of "Basque" ancestory and he most certainly exists.
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« Reply #134 on: October 16, 2009, 12:52:30 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
True true. My Grandfather was of "Basque" ancestory and he most certainly exists.

Basque language is vastly different from Spanish and their customs are different than the Spanish.
"Rusyn" is just a dialect of Ukrainian and the customs they claim as their own are Ukrainian.  Why?  Because what they claim as their own are the ethnic groups that make up the populace of Western Ukraine. 
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« Reply #135 on: October 16, 2009, 12:58:18 PM »

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Double standard?  I'm not saying I'm going to totally accept an ethnic identity affixed to a peoples by the children and grandchildren of Austrian-Hungarian immigrants that was created in the hills of Pennsylvania as a way to name their parish hall and social clubs and rally around a flag.  How many immigrants in the late 1800's and early 1900's called themselves "Carpatho-Rusyn"?  And really the concept of Ukraine came about after that wave of immigration from the former Austrian Hungarian empire.  Most of the early immigrants were happy to be in the USA away from oppression and mostly I hear people say "nash" (po nashemu=our people) more than "Carpatho-Rusyn" or Ukrainian. 

Reply:

As I said, double standard.  Just change the ethnic names around to 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' and you will see what I mean.

Orthodoc. 

But Russians and Ukrainians actually exist (I'm positive, I talk to Russians and Ukrainians that moved to the USA from Russia and Ukraine several times a week).  Carpatho Rusyns are Ukrainians with an identity crisis.


There is no country called "Basqueland" and yet the Basque peoples of northern Spain and southwestern France most certainly exist.  They may civilly be Spaniards or French in terms of their passports, but they most certainly think of themselves as Basque.  The same goes for the Lapps in Finland.

There is a vast difference between citizenship in a nation and cultural identity.  I think you're confusing the two thanks to your own family's choice to identify themselves as Ukrainian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.
True true. My Grandfather was of "Basque" ancestory and he most certainly exists.

Basque language is vastly different from Spanish and their customs are different than the Spanish.
"Rusyn" is just a dialect of Ukrainian and the customs they claim as their own are Ukrainian.  Why?  Because what they claim as their own are the ethnic groups that make up the populace of Western Ukraine. 

True, but would you rob the Lakota, the Dakota, and the Nakota of their ethnic sub-identity in the Great Sioux Nation?  Each speaks a slightly different dialect of the same language and have similar but "varying in the details" customs.  Ask one of those people who they are and they will refer to themselves not as "Sioux" or "Indian," but as Lakota, Dakota or Nakota. 
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« Reply #136 on: October 16, 2009, 01:01:25 PM »

Also, to bring it more home, would you tell someone from high Appalachia who wanted to refer to himself as an Appalachian rather than as a West Virginian (or American or Tennessean or what have you ) that he wasn't allowed to do so?  After all, they just speak a dialect of English and share most of their cultural customs with those in the valleys.
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« Reply #137 on: October 16, 2009, 01:15:42 PM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.
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« Reply #138 on: October 16, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


And that proves what?  Carpatho Rusyns were baptised by Sts Cyril & Methodious rather than St Vladimir.  Which makes them christian with their own culture a century before the Ukrainians.

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« Reply #139 on: October 16, 2009, 05:35:50 PM »

That would be Zakarpatska.

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« Reply #140 on: October 16, 2009, 05:38:17 PM »

Orthodoc,

Can you believe it?  Were on the same side of an issue!  Some small corner of hell must be freezing over or something! Grin

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #141 on: October 16, 2009, 05:46:46 PM »

Orthodoc,

Can you believe it?  Were on the same side of an issue!  Some small corner of hell must be freezing over or something! Grin

Fr. Deacon Lance

I was thinking the same thing!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #142 on: October 16, 2009, 06:30:29 PM »

That would be Zakarpatska.



Which is an Oblast in Ukraine, just like a state in the USA or a province in Canada. 
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« Reply #143 on: October 16, 2009, 06:32:17 PM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.
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« Reply #144 on: October 16, 2009, 06:33:10 PM »

Orthodoc,

Can you believe it?  Were on the same side of an issue!  Some small corner of hell must be freezing over or something! Grin

Fr. Deacon Lance

I'm always happy bringing people together to the same table. 
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« Reply #145 on: October 16, 2009, 06:33:54 PM »

Orthodoc,

Can you believe it?  Were on the same side of an issue!  Some small corner of hell must be freezing over or something! Grin

Fr. Deacon Lance

I was thinking the same thing!

Orthodoc

I was feeling that same cool breeze.

But then I'm in Chicago. Tongue
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« Reply #146 on: October 16, 2009, 06:34:55 PM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.

Ah but countries change and the names of people change... things never stay the same.  Iran was once Persia but people I've known from Iran never called themselves Persians.  
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« Reply #147 on: October 16, 2009, 10:38:43 PM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.

Ah but countries change and the names of people change... things never stay the same.  Iran was once Persia but people I've known from Iran never called themselves Persians.  
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« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2009, 09:31:01 AM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.

Ah but countries change and the names of people change... things never stay the same.  Iran was once Persia but people I've known from Iran never called themselves Persians.  

Exactly, the most important thing to remember is we are all human beings created by God and our call as Christians is to be more like Christ.. Theosis.  Whatever language or type of rushnyky you wear pales in comparison to the love of God and our duty to serve Him.
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« Reply #149 on: October 17, 2009, 10:09:57 AM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.

Ah but countries change and the names of people change... things never stay the same.  Iran was once Persia but people I've known from Iran never called themselves Persians.  

Exactly, the most important thing to remember is we are all human beings created by God and our call as Christians is to be more like Christ.. Theosis.  Whatever language or type of rushnyky you wear pales in comparison to the love of God and our duty to serve Him.

We'll agree on that.
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« Reply #150 on: October 17, 2009, 10:15:08 AM »

I'm not seeing this whole Carpatho-Rus thing on any Ukrainian map.


Look at Zakaparska.

Don't see Ukraine here at all:

http://www.ihst.ru/personal/imerz/bound/plate6.jpg

Not even a oblast, state or province.

Ah but countries change and the names of people change... things never stay the same.  Iran was once Persia but people I've known from Iran never called themselves Persians.  

I have actually known several people who identified themselves as "ethnically Persian" whose families were from what is now called Iran.
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« Reply #151 on: October 17, 2009, 11:34:37 AM »

Well, still, the point being is how can Hutsuls, Bojkos, etc.. claim to be Ukrainian at the same time "Carpatho-Rusyns" claim those ethnic groups as their own?  Kind of conflicting eh?
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« Reply #152 on: October 17, 2009, 02:43:02 PM »

But some do claim to be Carptho-Rusyn.  At what point did the Eastern Slav tribe seperate into distinctly Russian, Belarusian, and Ukrainian groupings?
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« Reply #153 on: October 17, 2009, 08:49:29 PM »

But some do claim to be Carptho-Rusyn.  At what point did the Eastern Slav tribe seperate into distinctly Russian, Belarusian, and Ukrainian groupings?

Find me ONE person living in Ukraine that would call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn.  Not someone in Pittsburgh, but a real live Ukrainian... I've never met one, they usually say "we're Ukrainian" or "I'm a Hutsul."  My one friend who goes to Western Ukraine asks every time he goes there and the Ukrainians have no clue what a Carpatho-Rusyn is and he says he gets looks like he is nuts for asking. 
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« Reply #154 on: October 17, 2009, 10:25:35 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;
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« Reply #155 on: October 17, 2009, 11:13:35 PM »

But some do claim to be Carptho-Rusyn.  At what point did the Eastern Slav tribe seperate into distinctly Russian, Belarusian, and Ukrainian groupings?

Find me ONE person living in Ukraine that would call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn.  Not someone in Pittsburgh, but a real live Ukrainian... I've never met one, they usually say "we're Ukrainian" or "I'm a Hutsul."  My one friend who goes to Western Ukraine asks every time he goes there and the Ukrainians have no clue what a Carpatho-Rusyn is and he says he gets looks like he is nuts for asking. 


I take it you did not even bother to download the TV segment on YouTube that was recommended.  How sad!

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« Reply #156 on: October 17, 2009, 11:43:23 PM »

But some do claim to be Carptho-Rusyn.  At what point did the Eastern Slav tribe seperate into distinctly Russian, Belarusian, and Ukrainian groupings?

Find me ONE person living in Ukraine that would call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn.  Not someone in Pittsburgh, but a real live Ukrainian... I've never met one, they usually say "we're Ukrainian" or "I'm a Hutsul."  My one friend who goes to Western Ukraine asks every time he goes there and the Ukrainians have no clue what a Carpatho-Rusyn is and he says he gets looks like he is nuts for asking. 


I take it you did not even bother to download the TV segment on YouTube that was recommended.  How sad!

Orthodoc

I don't buy into the internet propaganda, how sad to believe everything that comes out of certain "societies" based in Pittsburgh.
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« Reply #157 on: October 17, 2009, 11:59:35 PM »

But some do claim to be Carptho-Rusyn.  At what point did the Eastern Slav tribe seperate into distinctly Russian, Belarusian, and Ukrainian groupings?

Find me ONE person living in Ukraine that would call themselves Carpatho-Rusyn.  Not someone in Pittsburgh, but a real live Ukrainian... I've never met one, they usually say "we're Ukrainian" or "I'm a Hutsul."  My one friend who goes to Western Ukraine asks every time he goes there and the Ukrainians have no clue what a Carpatho-Rusyn is and he says he gets looks like he is nuts for asking. 


I take it you did not even bother to download the TV segment on YouTube that was recommended.  How sad!

Orthodoc

I don't buy into the internet propaganda, how sad to believe everything that comes out of certain "societies" based in Pittsburgh.

LOL.  That's a shame, it's quite good.  The Ukrainian would make a fine Soviet Comissar.  What's "anti-Ukrainian activity?" I love the story of the Ukrainian KGB, I mean security forces, being stopped by a babushka in the Church.

I've been to Pittusburgh.  I don't recall Uzhhorod being anywhere near it.
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« Reply #158 on: October 18, 2009, 12:48:26 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;

Like I said, that bunch consists of Ukrainians with an identity crisis. 
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« Reply #159 on: October 18, 2009, 01:02:21 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;

Like I said, that bunch consists of Ukrainians with an identity crisis. 

Now you're arguing in a circular manner.  You asked for ONE citizen of Ukraine who self-identified himself as a Rusyn.  Deacon Lance provided an answer along with documentation.  Your prior argument hinged on the fact that only people from Pittsburgh identify themselves as Carpatho-Rusyns and that no one in the civil state of Ukraine does so. 

Apparently there are a few people who do and who are you, as an American citizen, to tell anyone 1/3 of the way around the globe who they are?  The claim of self-identity is one of the most basic of human rights. 
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« Reply #160 on: October 18, 2009, 07:31:25 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;

Like I said, that bunch consists of Ukrainians with an identity crisis. 

Now you're arguing in a circular manner.  You asked for ONE citizen of Ukraine who self-identified himself as a Rusyn.  Deacon Lance provided an answer along with documentation.  Your prior argument hinged on the fact that only people from Pittsburgh identify themselves as Carpatho-Rusyns and that no one in the civil state of Ukraine does so. 

Apparently there are a few people who do and who are you, as an American citizen, to tell anyone 1/3 of the way around the globe who they are?  The claim of self-identity is one of the most basic of human rights. 

Basic human rights are food, water, shelter and possibly oil.  Everything else is a luxury.
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« Reply #161 on: October 18, 2009, 07:38:19 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;

Like I said, that bunch consists of Ukrainians with an identity crisis. 

Now you're arguing in a circular manner.  You asked for ONE citizen of Ukraine who self-identified himself as a Rusyn.  Deacon Lance provided an answer along with documentation.  Your prior argument hinged on the fact that only people from Pittsburgh identify themselves as Carpatho-Rusyns and that no one in the civil state of Ukraine does so. 

Apparently there are a few people who do and who are you, as an American citizen, to tell anyone 1/3 of the way around the globe who they are?  The claim of self-identity is one of the most basic of human rights. 

No one is getting the thinly veiled Pittsburgh reference (no not directed at the Ruthenian Greek/Byzantine Catholic Metropolia).  Also I am sure there are webpages on the internet where different individuals believe they are werewolves.  However just because they believe they are werewolves doesn't make werewolves exist. 
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« Reply #162 on: October 18, 2009, 08:19:39 PM »

Fr. Dmitri Sidor would.  So would the Greek Catholics of the Mukachevo/Uzhorod region.  Aleksander Duchnovic certainly called himself one.  Your are familiar with the Rusyn anthem Ja Rusyn Byl he penned:

I was, am and will remain Rusyn,
  I was born a Rusyn,
My honorable lineage I will not forget,
  And I shall remain its son;

Like I said, that bunch consists of Ukrainians with an identity crisis. 

Now you're arguing in a circular manner.  You asked for ONE citizen of Ukraine who self-identified himself as a Rusyn.  Deacon Lance provided an answer along with documentation.  Your prior argument hinged on the fact that only people from Pittsburgh identify themselves as Carpatho-Rusyns and that no one in the civil state of Ukraine does so. 

Apparently there are a few people who do and who are you, as an American citizen, to tell anyone 1/3 of the way around the globe who they are?  The claim of self-identity is one of the most basic of human rights. 

Basic human rights are food, water, shelter and possibly oil.

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« Reply #163 on: October 18, 2009, 08:32:24 PM »

This thread is a prime example of why arguing on the internet is just a bad idea.  Since I have no dog in this fight aside from academic interest, I am bowing out.  Enjoy arguing past each other, folks!
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« Reply #164 on: October 18, 2009, 11:36:52 PM »

This thread is a prime example of why arguing on the internet is just a bad idea.  Since I have no dog in this fight aside from academic interest, I am bowing out.  Enjoy arguing past each other, folks!

That's the fun of it, it's just for fun. It's not like we are discussing as heart transplant surgeons a new way to more effectively implant a heart.  We're just folks arguing over what to call people living in mountains in Eastern Europe. 
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« Reply #165 on: October 19, 2009, 09:33:38 AM »

To change gears a bit:  I have been told by Ukrainians that there is no such word as "Ruthenians"--yet there is a Ruthenian Catholic Church?  What's up with that?

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« Reply #166 on: October 19, 2009, 10:29:40 AM »

To change gears a bit:  I have been told by Ukrainians that there is no such word as "Ruthenians"--yet there is a Ruthenian Catholic Church?  What's up with that?



It's the Latinized word they say.
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« Reply #167 on: October 19, 2009, 01:42:47 PM »

Just as an aside, Fr. Dmitri Sidor would call himself a Russian.
He is part of a very small minority in Zakarpatia who still adhere to the Russphile party/movement & orthodox movement of the late 19th century.  He wants nothing to do with Magosci or people in the USA who identify themsleves as Rusyns and not Russians.

On the other hand there are the Rusyns, under the leadership of Prof. Paul Robert Magocsi, who is president of the World Free Congress of Rusyns, who see the Slavic people of this area as a distinct ethnic group with their own language, history and traditions.

Read any of Magocsi's books or brrochures.  If you do, it is interesting to discover how ethnically diverse this area was throughout history.  Lots of Hungarians, Slovaks, Poles, even Germans.  Also magosci mentions that the Ruthenians were the poorest of the poor.  I am only adding this in case people think that the so-called Rusyns were ever had a donimant role in the area until after WW2.  There was a lot of re-settling and voluntary and involuntary movement of ethnic groups then.
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« Reply #168 on: October 19, 2009, 06:43:19 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
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« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2009, 12:56:57 PM »

see below...sorry don't know if I can delete.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 01:11:50 PM by Vocatio » Logged

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« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2009, 01:10:52 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.
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« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2009, 03:13:05 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.

The discussion is about those Rusyns located within the current borders of Ukraine.  Those Rusyns who reside within the current Slovak or Polish borders have their Rusyn identity recognized as such.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2009, 04:11:02 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.

The discussion is about those Rusyns located within the current borders of Ukraine.  Those Rusyns who reside within the current Slovak or Polish borders have their Rusyn identity recognized as such.

Orthodoc
Sorry if you don't get what I meant.  My point is the this part of the world has always been a geographic shatterbelt.  That's why the Soviet Union constantly tried to control activity in the eastern European nations.  That was my point added with a little bit of example as a background.  Sorry, I'm a geographer.  That's what interests me most and what got me into learning about Orthodoxy.  My apologies if I was too off topic.
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« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2009, 04:48:42 PM »

This is one of the most important dicussions on the forum.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:48:58 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2009, 07:20:30 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.

The discussion is about those Rusyns located within the current borders of Ukraine.  Those Rusyns who reside within the current Slovak or Polish borders have their Rusyn identity recognized as such.

Orthodoc
Sorry if you don't get what I meant.  My point is the this part of the world has always been a geographic shatterbelt.  That's why the Soviet Union constantly tried to control activity in the eastern European nations.  That was my point added with a little bit of example as a background.  Sorry, I'm a geographer.  That's what interests me most and what got me into learning about Orthodoxy.  My apologies if I was too off topic.

No need to apologize I was just adding info.  There is a book out called 'The People From Nowhere' because every time there is a war they end up being separated amongst many different countries.  Guess that is what you meant.  Andy Wharol was a Lemko (Rusyn) and when asked where his ancestors came from he would reply
They are from nowhere'.  This is what they meant.

Orthodoc

P.S.  At one time they were part of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire'.  That's what it says on my grandpaents papers too.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 07:23:35 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2009, 08:51:42 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.

The discussion is about those Rusyns located within the current borders of Ukraine.  Those Rusyns who reside within the current Slovak or Polish borders have their Rusyn identity recognized as such.

Orthodoc
Sorry if you don't get what I meant.  My point is the this part of the world has always been a geographic shatterbelt.  That's why the Soviet Union constantly tried to control activity in the eastern European nations.  That was my point added with a little bit of example as a background.  Sorry, I'm a geographer.  That's what interests me most and what got me into learning about Orthodoxy.  My apologies if I was too off topic.

No need to apologize I was just adding info.  There is a book out called 'The People From Nowhere' because every time there is a war they end up being separated amongst many different countries.  Guess that is what you meant.  Andy Wharol was a Lemko (Rusyn) and when asked where his ancestors came from he would reply
They are from nowhere'.  This is what they meant.

Orthodoc

P.S.  At one time they were part of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire'.  That's what it says on my grandpaents papers too.
interesting  my daughter has me trapped ,,,she's sick and my hands are trapped.  I'm typing one handed while reaching. will expand later on a relative I met by mere accident buying rosaries thinking about becoming catholic from fundamentalist,,,small world
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 09:16:24 PM by Vocatio » Logged

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« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2009, 08:59:58 PM »

In this interview Fr. Dmitri describes himself as Rusyn.  I do understand that as a priest of UOC-MP he is pro-Russian, but everything I have read about him states he a Rusyn activist.

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/intsidor.htm
There's a reason we call this territory a geographic shatterbelt.

My family of origin is from this part of the world and after reading about the history I understand why they abandoned that territory, constant wars and owning property became seemingly fragile.  The settled in Schulenburg, Texas.  Any body remember the battery operated helicopters on a wire string connected to a flashlight looking operator?  That's my family... "The Stanzel Factory", now a museum.  I learned about this territory in the Province of Bohemia by picking up a book in the library about this region while trying to learn a bit more about my family.  German and Czech speakers through wars and conquers were forced to live in harmony...yea right.  I would love to do more research on this part of the world as a geographer. 

Anyway societies have been forced to blend in with existing indigenous populations at the expense of culture clashes. At one point it was illegal to speak either Czech or German, forget which.  We consider ourselves Austrian, but today's Austria is much further away.  My family came over with documents saying "Austrian Empire".  In other parts of the world many indigenous populations are trying to gain higher notoriety by lobbying for example minority status.  Louisiana, also part of my French and Spanish heritage, had a group of "Cajuns" lobbying for minority status.  Sorry if this seems off topic, but I meant it only as an example of what happens when cultures are forced to live together and neither one is absorbed into the other,which seems to be the norm today as even many are encouraged to return to their roots.

The discussion is about those Rusyns located within the current borders of Ukraine.  Those Rusyns who reside within the current Slovak or Polish borders have their Rusyn identity recognized as such.

Orthodoc

I see the discussion restarted while I'm like really really away from frequent computer availability.   
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« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2010, 12:13:05 PM »

On www.timkovic.com proves that o.Timkovic's are liars and turning lies to their personal agenda.
o.Timkovic's  are hurting church and Ruthenians.
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