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Author Topic: Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew's Visit to the US 2009  (Read 18086 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 26, 2009, 10:58:05 AM »

Just wanted to post this in case people would like to go to any of the events. 

"His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew will visit the United States October 20 – November 6.  He will be leading the Religion, Science, and Environmental Symposium: “Restoring Balance: The Great Mississippi River” from October 21-25.  For information on the symposium, the schedule of events for the visit, and more on the Ecumenical Patriarch and his environmental efforts visit the special US visit site at http://usvisit2009.org/ " - email communication from GOARCH
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2009, 11:04:48 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22042.0.html Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »

yes, I see that his All Holiness has now managed to squeeze in a morning with the hierarchs of SCOBA (Oct. 27).
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »

yes, I see that his All Holiness has now managed to squeeze in a morning with the hierarchs of SCOBA (Oct. 27).

It's been in the plans for awhile (according to conversations I've had with clergy in our Archdiocese) - visiting parishes, visiting with our Eparchial Synod, SCOBA, etc.
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 07:40:42 PM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 08:29:41 PM »

yes, I see that his All Holiness has now managed to squeeze in a morning with the hierarchs of SCOBA (Oct. 27).

It's been in the plans for awhile (according to conversations I've had with clergy in our Archdiocese) - visiting parishes, visiting with our Eparchial Synod, SCOBA, etc.

Any reason why that was a secret, while I've known about his visit to Coca Cola for quite some time?
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 09:42:56 PM »

I think there are certain aspects of this trip that people want to talk about and the common stuff like meeting with Orthodox bishops have gotten overlooked. The meeting with SCOBA was on the agenda from the very start of the planning of this trip, the exact date and time just hadn't been worked out. The UN prayer service was also moved up to take advantage of this trip. Theses types of visits are very complicated and if you look at the schedule you will see his meeting with the President is still is not finalized.
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 09:45:38 PM »

Yikes.  What's with people assuming the worst of His All Holiness? 
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 01:16:23 AM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry

Quote
"When my father was asked why he did what he did" said Mr. Muhtar Kent, president and chief operating officer of the North Asia, Eurasia and Middle East Group of The Coca-Cola Company, and he found it difficult to continue, "he replied - I did it because it was the right thing to do."

Mr. Kent traveled to New York to be part of the homage paid to the heroism of his father, Necdet Kent, Vice Consul in Marseille, France during WWII, and other Turkish diplomats whose role during WWII was crucial for the spare of thousand of Jewish lives. The event, organized by The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation (IRWF) and The American Sephardi Federation with Sephardic House (ASF) with the Consulate General of the Republic of Turkey in New York was the first in a series to honor Holocaust rescuers who came from countries where Sepharadic Jews had lived for hundreds of years.
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2009, 05:47:25 AM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry

Quote
"When my father was asked why he did what he did" said Mr. Muhtar Kent, president and chief operating officer of the North Asia, Eurasia and Middle East Group of The Coca-Cola Company, and he found it difficult to continue, "he replied - I did it because it was the right thing to do."

Mr. Kent traveled to New York to be part of the homage paid to the heroism of his father, Necdet Kent, Vice Consul in Marseille, France during WWII, and other Turkish diplomats whose role during WWII was crucial for the spare of thousand of Jewish lives. The event, organized by The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation (IRWF) and The American Sephardi Federation with Sephardic House (ASF) with the Consulate General of the Republic of Turkey in New York was the first in a series to honor Holocaust rescuers who came from countries where Sepharadic Jews had lived for hundreds of years.

I'm not sure of the connection between the two.
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2009, 05:51:20 AM »

yes, I see that his All Holiness has now managed to squeeze in a morning with the hierarchs of SCOBA (Oct. 27).

This is promising.  I certainly hope something useful comes out of this meeting. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2009, 10:27:02 AM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry

Quote
Tuesday, October 27, 2009

Nestor of Thessaloniki
Kyriakos, Patriarch Of Constantinople

Patriarchal Audience and Meeting with SCOBA Hierarchs in the Conference Room of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
(8 East 79th Street, New York, NY 10075)
Tel.: 212-570-3500
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2009, 03:03:23 PM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry
I have looked over the schedule and I have yet to see my name on the schedule of audiences with the Patriarch, I know I am meeting with him and I have even been told that I will get my picture taken with him yet it is not on the official schedule so I wonder if this will happen then because everything the Patriarch is doing must be on the schedule for all of the public to see.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 03:30:02 PM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry
I have looked over the schedule and I have yet to see my name on the schedule of audiences with the Patriarch, I know I am meeting with him and I have even been told that I will get my picture taken with him yet it is not on the official schedule so I wonder if this will happen then because everything the Patriarch is doing must be on the schedule for all of the public to see.

Then he can't very much complain when, because he sends his surrogates out (CS Elpidophoros, Met. Gerasimos, the Holy Cross Faculty etc.) to speak to us lowly Orthodox while he broadcasts hisself his schedule with the environmentalists and the powers that be et alia, speculation rages throughout the blogosphere and indeed among his own supposed flock here, on what his All Holiness is up to (Chambesy, UAOC etc.).
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 04:24:33 PM »

Feel free to check out the thread, Patriarchs and secular think tanks, in the Politics board. 

Please PM Fr. Chris if you do not have access to the Politics Board.   Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 04:38:07 PM »

I suppose that the efforts of His Most Divine All-Holiness (why do English speakers decline to accord him his correct title?) in the ecological field are laudable.

But I cannot help feeling that he should be totally devoted to the Gospel and evangelisation and leave the ecological issues to others.   The Bible assures us that bad ecology results from bad morality - so it is obvious where the Patriarch should be addressing his efforts and energy - to the moral sphere of Christian teaching.

'He turneth a fruitful land into barrenness for the wickedness of them that dwell therein' (Psalm 106,34, Septuagint.)

The Psalmist would not have had in mind any connection with our modern problems of ecology and immorality but the verse is quite apt for today's conditions.  Our immorality is impacting on our physical environment.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 04:38:23 PM »

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry

Quote
Tuesday, October 27, 2009

Nestor of Thessaloniki
Kyriakos, Patriarch Of Constantinople

Patriarchal Audience and Meeting with SCOBA Hierarchs in the Conference Room of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
(8 East 79th Street, New York, NY 10075)
Tel.: 212-570-3500

So members of the GOA get a private audience with his Holiness, but those of the lowly UOC have to meet with him with the rest of the SCOBA leaders? I'm sorry, but that's not right. From the schedule that has been provided, he has meeting after meeting with GOA clergy, but not a single meeting with the UOC or ACROD for that matter.

I am hoping that he will meet with leaders from both jurisdictions privately, but that it hasn't been announced yet.

After all, should not a shepherd tend to all the members of his flock?
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 08:34:46 PM »

All UOC hierarchs are meeting with him and have time with him.  Our UOCUSA clergy were invited as well to banquet and to audience.   This is a GOArch press release.  The UOC press release will probably de-emphasize the rest. 

Apparantly he can meet with the President of Coca-Cola but does not have time for the Ukrainians under his leadership? I see no mention of meeting with +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, or +Bishop DANIEL.  Angry

Quote
Tuesday, October 27, 2009

Nestor of Thessaloniki
Kyriakos, Patriarch Of Constantinople

Patriarchal Audience and Meeting with SCOBA Hierarchs in the Conference Room of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
(8 East 79th Street, New York, NY 10075)
Tel.: 212-570-3500

So members of the GOA get a private audience with his Holiness, but those of the lowly UOC have to meet with him with the rest of the SCOBA leaders? I'm sorry, but that's not right. From the schedule that has been provided, he has meeting after meeting with GOA clergy, but not a single meeting with the UOC or ACROD for that matter.

I am hoping that he will meet with leaders from both jurisdictions privately, but that it hasn't been announced yet.

After all, should not a shepherd tend to all the members of his flock?

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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2009, 09:32:29 PM »

I suppose that the efforts of His Most Divine All-Holiness (why do English speakers decline to accord him his correct title?) in the ecological field are laudable.

I have got to tell you that I stirred up a veritable hornet's nest when I questioned why we use obsequious titles and honorifics for our bishops. I also said that the use of "Most-Divine All-Holiness" for the Patriarch of Constantinople is borderline blasphemy.  Oh boy, talking about being figuratively tarred and feathered and ridden out of town! Anyway, the reason for English speakers not using this form of address is that it would instantly turn off millions of people, at least in the United States--evangelism in reverse!
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2009, 09:37:55 PM »

I suppose that the efforts of His Most Divine All-Holiness (why do English speakers decline to accord him his correct title?) in the ecological field are laudable.

I have got to tell you that I stirred up a veritable hornet's nest when I questioned why we use obsequious titles and honorifics for our bishops. I also said that the use of "Most-Divine All-Holiness" for the Patriarch of Constantinople is borderline blasphemy.  Oh boy, talking about being figuratively tarred and feathered and ridden out of town! Anyway, the reason for English speakers not using this form of address is that it would instantly turn off millions of people, at least in the United States--evangelism in reverse!

I have never heard the title "His Most Divine All-Holiness."  It isn't even used on the official English site of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. 
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 12:09:16 PM »

I suppose that the efforts of His Most Divine All-Holiness (why do English speakers decline to accord him his correct title?)...

I think we decline to use the above-title because it undermines every anti-Papal instinct and argument we have.  And the English speaking Orthodox have lots of anti-Papal instincts and arguments.

Hey, what's a little infallibility vs. being "Most Divine" laugh 
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 12:22:39 PM »

All UOC hierarchs are meeting with him and have time with him.  Our UOCUSA clergy were invited as well to banquet and to audience.   This is a GOArch press release.  The UOC press release will probably de-emphasize the rest. 

Thank you Father, for the clarification! I'm glad to hear our Heirarchs will meet with his Holiness. Do you know when this will occur?

I am confused however, why they didn't include this on his Holiness' website.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 12:26:45 PM »


All UOC hierarchs are meeting with him and have time with him.  Our UOCUSA clergy were invited as well to banquet and to audience.   

I hope so.  We, Ukrainians, have "much" to discuss with the Patriarch.

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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 12:32:43 PM »

Haven't we had this discussion before? Most (perhaps all?) of the ancient Patriarchates have "divine" in their full titles. Definitely Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem still do. Antioch did. Not sure if they retain it when they use Ecclesiastical Greek.

Anyway, the proper ecclesiastical language for Alexandria and Jerusalem is: "Ἡ Αὐτοῦ Θειοτάτη Μακριότης Πατριάρχης..." (His Most Godly Beatitude, the Patriarch..). The only difference for Constantinople is: "Ἡ Αὐτοῦ Θειοτάτη Παναγιότης Πατριάρχης..." (His Most Godly All-Holiness, the Patriarch...").

We don't use Θειοτάτη in English b/c it doesn't translate well. It doesn't mean "divine" in the sense that he is a god, but, rather, belonging to or under divine protection. That's a typical usage, attested to even by Homer, and commonly used in Byzantine Greek like we tend to use "Providential" or "as God wills".

Edit: That said, titles like that are really only for speeches and articles, etc. Even when signing official ecclesiastical documents, all the Patriarch writes is "Bartholomew of Constantinople". Same for any other Bishop.
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2009, 11:19:46 PM »

While he is in the neighborhood, will Patriarch Bartholomew answer the question posed to him by Father Edward Pehanich in the quoted post below?

(This came to my attention by this post in Orthodox-Forum)

"Dear Constantine,

If the Patriarch's allowance of abortion concerned such Abnormalities as ectopic pregnancies, then nobody would think twice about it. But the Patriarch has given his carte blanche blessing for couples to make the decision to abort perfectly healthy babies in the womb.

Here are his words:

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."

I understand that Fr Dr Edward Pehanich (ACROD, founder of Orthodox Christians For Life) who reported all this in an article in oclife.org http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf has sought clarification or retraction from His Divine All-Holiness.

As for those who doubt that the Patriarch was honestly reported, why would Fr Edward Pehanich who holds a prominent position in ACROD highlight these remarks in the Orthodox Christians for Life magazine if they were unreliable, thereby antagonising his supreme spiritual authority in the Phanar. I'd say he's a brave and honest priest.

If you'd like to contact Fr Edward and ask for up to date information his contact details are:

Very Rev. Dr. Edward Pehanich
10062 Firethorn Dr.
N. Huntingdon, PA 15642
Phone: (724) 863-3741
---

And Fr Anthony Nelson, a prominent ROCA priest in the Right to Life
Movement, has written:

We at Oklahoma Orthodox Christians for Life also wrote both to the
Patriarchate and the GOA requesting comments/clarification of the comments At the time. Our requests went unanswered.

Fr. Anthony


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Protopriest Anthony Nelson
St. Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, OK USA 405-672-1441
Source:https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0701D&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&m=998\
15&P=6149


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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2009, 01:22:17 AM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2009, 03:21:05 AM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2009, 04:34:45 AM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2009, 12:13:18 PM »

I find it a bit hard to believe considering that the Patriarch signed a document on November 30 2006 that condemns abortion and upholds all life issues from conception to death.   

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2009, 02:02:31 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock


How about this:" We also respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all governors. . . . We cannot generalize.There are many reasons for a governor to hang a patriarch...." HuhTongue

« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 02:02:54 PM by Elpidophoros » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2009, 03:57:49 PM »



In his book the EP writes:

"As for abortion, this is always profoundly dramatic for a woman and deeply injures her femininity. For this reason, abortion for the sake of convenience is, we cannot deny it, extremely serious and must be strongly discouraged. But there are situations of extreme distress when abortion can be a lesser evil, as, for example, when the life of the future mother is in danger.”

And, regardless of any bishop's, or patriarch's views, the official stance of the Church is:
“the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976. The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.”

===================

Orthodoc
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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2009, 02:37:23 PM »

One of the things that leaps out at me is the phrase "the future mother."   Future mother?   



In his book the EP writes:

"As for abortion, this is always profoundly dramatic for a woman and deeply injures her femininity. For this reason, abortion for the sake of convenience is, we cannot deny it, extremely serious and must be strongly discouraged. But there are situations of extreme distress when abortion can be a lesser evil, as, for example, when the life of the future mother is in danger.”

And, regardless of any bishop's, or patriarch's views, the official stance of the Church is:
“the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976. The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.”

===================

Orthodoc

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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2009, 06:51:56 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I don't mean to belittle Christ's words, but I imagine that your priest is never going to be in the position of giving up his life for another in regard to complications during child birth, so his stand seems a little flippant. Of course, I am against abortion, but let's not judge those who are placed in the horrendous position of a pregnancy that might end their lives. 
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2009, 07:00:11 PM »



In his book the EP writes:

"As for abortion, this is always profoundly dramatic for a woman and deeply injures her femininity. For this reason, abortion for the sake of convenience is, we cannot deny it, extremely serious and must be strongly discouraged. But there are situations of extreme distress when abortion can be a lesser evil, as, for example, when the life of the future mother is in danger.”

And, regardless of any bishop's, or patriarch's views, the official stance of the Church is:
“the Twenty-Third Clergy-Laity Congress held in Philadelphia in 1976. The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.”

===================

Orthodoc


This Congress is not entirely correct: such cases are really when procedures done to save the mother result in the abortion of the child.  In other words, when the choice is between one life or another, and the procedures are ditated by which life is being saved, not by which one is going to die as a result.
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2009, 07:01:13 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I don't mean to belittle Christ's words, but I imagine that your priest is never going to be in the position of giving up his life for another in regard to complications during child birth, so his stand seems a little flippant. Of course, I am against abortion, but let's not judge those who are placed in the horrendous position of a pregnancy that might end their lives. 


Not like we have married priests who have lost their wives in childbirth....
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2009, 07:05:57 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I don't mean to belittle Christ's words, but I imagine that your priest is never going to be in the position of giving up his life for another in regard to complications during child birth, so his stand seems a little flippant. Of course, I am against abortion, but let's not judge those who are placed in the horrendous position of a pregnancy that might end their lives. 


Not like we have married priests who have lost their wives in childbirth....

If they have lost their wives due to lack of response to an ectopic pregnancy, I would be wondering why.
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2009, 07:14:30 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I don't mean to belittle Christ's words, but I imagine that your priest is never going to be in the position of giving up his life for another in regard to complications during child birth, so his stand seems a little flippant. Of course, I am against abortion, but let's not judge those who are placed in the horrendous position of a pregnancy that might end their lives. 


Not like we have married priests who have lost their wives in childbirth....

If they have lost their wives due to lack of response to an ectopic pregnancy, I would be wondering why.
Ectopic pregancy is, at present, an automatic death sentence of the child (I don't know of a single instance of the classical tubal pregnancies surviving), and risk of death of the mother.  Treatment to save the mother's life results in the death of a child already under a death sentence.

Now, can we deal with the >99.9% of cases of abortion?
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2009, 07:38:16 PM »

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth. 

I don't mean to belittle Christ's words, but I imagine that your priest is never going to be in the position of giving up his life for another in regard to complications during child birth, so his stand seems a little flippant. Of course, I am against abortion, but let's not judge those who are placed in the horrendous position of a pregnancy that might end their lives. 


Not like we have married priests who have lost their wives in childbirth....

If they have lost their wives due to lack of response to an ectopic pregnancy, I would be wondering why.
Ectopic pregancy is, at present, an automatic death sentence of the child (I don't know of a single instance of the classical tubal pregnancies surviving), and risk of death of the mother.  Treatment to save the mother's life results in the death of a child already under a death sentence.

Now, can we deal with the >99.9% of cases of abortion?

Why not stick to those that are life-threatening? That seems to be the point that Ortho_cat's priest was making - that women should be prepared to give up their lives in such circumstances. It's something I've never faced, so I can't say what my reaction would be. And I'm certainly not prepared to judge any woman who chooses her own life over that of her unborn child. As I said, it amounts to a flippant comment as he is never going to face such an issue; his wife might, but not him personally. But of course, generally this giving up one's life for another doesn't prevent anyone being responsible for the death of someone else's child - born or unborn - during war; or even in a case of self-defence. But I'm sure there is an appropriate thread or two for topic.
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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2009, 08:32:24 PM »

Will be interesting to watch the EP-haters spew their pet peeves...
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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2009, 11:02:56 PM »

If a mother volunteers to die in order to save her baby...would that baby survive without the mother?  Forget about modern conveniences like baby formula. 

Who would suckle the infant?

She's not choosing to kill her baby, she is choosing to live.  Maybe she has other children who depend on her, as well.

Don't judge mothers so harshly.  Believe me, besides a few, most mothers would gladly jump in front of a truck to save their kids.

Abortion is wrong, however, what you are referring to is not abortion in the same sense as simply ending a life due to frivolity or lack of caring.

Lord, have mercy on all women who have to make such a heart-wrenching decision!

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« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2009, 11:42:57 AM »

He wasn't saying that women should feel obligated to do such a thing. I can't remember the entire conversation, but what he told us was not said in a flippant way at all.   He was emphasizing the Church's condemnation of abortion and how much we value life. He was basically saying that there is no reason for abortion, unless perhaps the mother's life is at stake, and even then one should undertake such a decision with much contemplation.
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2009, 08:55:05 PM »

Caveat: this contains criticism of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  Do not read if this might offend you.

Thinking about the bulletin insert on the Green Patriarch's visit.

By Fr. Johannes Jacobse On October 13, 2009 @ 9:25 am

Fr. Hans Jacobse is editor of www.OrthodoxyToday
 (AOI is American Orthodox Institute, a think tank founded by Fr. Hans.)

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/thinking-about-the-bulletin-insert-on-the-green-patriarchs-visit/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pardon my skepticism but does anyone else find the effusive praise in the handout to Greek Orthodox parishioners [1] last Sunday overbearing? The author tries so hard to convince us of Patriarch Bartholomew's stratospheric virtues that the entire piece has an "Our Dear Leader" feel to it. It reads, I am sad to say, like propaganda.

Strong words? Yes, but only because the endless strings of ebullient praise obscure important considerations. While Pat. Bartholomew's stand on the protection of the environment should be applauded, and while he has done much to raise awareness that environmental care is an issue to which Christians can contribute, it does not follow that all of his ideas about "creation care" (as some of the participants [2] in the Mississippi River Symposium refer to it) are sound.

For example, as part of Pat. Bartholomew's environmental program in the United States later this month, he plans a visit to Georgetown University to deliver a talk co-sponsored by the Center for American Progress [3] (CAP), a George Soros funded think-tank originally developed as Hillary Clinton's cabinet in waiting, but now a source of far-left cultural activism. We can say, and CAP would probably agree, that CAP's sole function is to promote the ideas of "progressives," the far left - including moral issues that an Orthodox Christian could never adopt and still remain true to the moral tradition.

Of course, this is America and support of these issues is fair game. America has no institution of moral adjudication so the vexing moral questions end up being debated loudly in the public square, including think tanks. But should the Ecumenical Patriarch be lending his moral authority to CAP with a speech? I don't think so. It simply is not appropriate for a religious leader of his standing to do that. I object not only because the positions CAP holds on the great moral questions are different than my own. A visit to, say, the Heritage Foundation [4] whose views are closer to mine would be just as inappropriate.

Why throw in with CAP? Why align yourself so closely with George Soros (no friend of religion, nation-states, or free markets)? Why risk the diminution of an already fragile moral authority by lending it to those who hold religion in disdain, and whose policies contradict the Orthodox moral tradition?

You can be sure that Pope Benedict would never make such a blunder, but then the Pope seems to have a better grasp of moral leadership than the EP. The Pope recognizes the crisis in Western culture is primarily moral and has spoken out forcefully [5] against the cultural rot. We don't see the same breadth and consistency from the EP. In fact, all too often we see the lauding of politicians who in their public lives foster the culture of death [a reference to the Patriarch's pro-choice stance on abortion?]. The EP will do that again [6] in his visit to Washington next month. Compromise trumps conviction time and again, at least in some parts of the Orthodox Church.

Perhaps the overbearing praise attempts to cover these persistent lapses. But that too, is a miscalculation. We are Americans. We don't do well with monarchical pretensions. And while many hierarchs still govern their flocks with the medieval sensibility that the mitre confers a divine right of kings, Americans (responsible ones anyway) understand that ideas have consequences, and that a bad idea is still a bad idea even if a hierarch promotes it.

For example, Pat. Bartholomew urges passage of the UN Protocols on Climate Change. I wasn't aware that the Phanar had a Ministry of Science, but someone needs to tell them that global warming is hardly settled science. Further, global warming is as much an economic issue as a scientific one and we have to look at it in economic terms too. Again, the Pope wisely distances himself from global warming, realizing perhaps that fads sweep through the scientific community as easily as they do the larger culture.

Although some in the media have taken to calling Benedict the "the Green Pope" for his recent pronouncements [7], the Vatican's witness on the environment is more carefully thought out than the Phanar's. Most significantly, the Vatican has taken great care to distance itself from any environmental movement that threatens the sanctity of life. It also ties its environmental ethic to human and social development. In other words, Benedict and his advisers understand that environmental questions are bound up with economic and social factors - and all are profoundly moral issues.

Perhaps this Orthodox notion of the divine right of ecclesiastical monarchy explains why the ebullient praise for the Green Patriarch comes across as, well, condescending, why it has that "Our Dear Leader" feel I mentioned at the outset. We are expected to accept it without reflection.

Could it be that the EP just does not understand American culture? It doesn't seem likely. Pat. Bartholomew is an educated and well-traveled man. He must have some sense that while Americans can be patient with the trappings of authority, we don't take well to authorities who push us to follow them by appeals to their ostensible virtue.

Who is at fault here then? His handlers? Could it be that the author of the piece and other advisers, really believe that talking to CAP is a good move for the EP, that it won't, in the long run, diminish his authority and that policy statements like support for the UN Protocols won't, in the long run, make the EP appear he is speaking to issues out of his league?

It's hard for me to believe that the ignorance would run so deep; that they can't see that the road the EP is following might win him some support in the short run, but will inevitably lead to a lessening of his authority in the long run. On the other hand, perhaps they don't understand from where moral authority is drawn. If that's the case, they will confuse political with moral authority and we are in worse trouble than we think.

In either case, the entire enterprise seems woefully misguided. No amount of effusive praise can cover bad ideas and the author is foolish to think we won't see through it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article printed from AOI Observer: http://www.aoiusa.org/blog

URL to article: http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/thinking-about-the-bulletin-insert-on-the-green-patriarchs-visit/

URLs in this post:

[1] handout to Greek Orthodox parishioners: http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/green-patriach-continues-his-witness-to-the-unity-of-orthodox-christians/

[2] some of the participants: http://www.creationcare.org/

[3] Center for American Progress: http://www.americanprogress.org/

[4] Heritage Foundation: http://www.heritage.org/

[5] has spoken out forcefully: http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=16460&size=A

[6] will do that again: http://www.patriarchate.org/events/usvisit2009/itinerary

[7] his recent pronouncements: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17209

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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2009, 11:08:12 PM »

^ Thank You Father Ambrose.   Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2009, 11:42:00 PM »

Yeah, I'm not terribley impressed with the agenda of his visit, and I don't get the whole "Green Patriarch" thing.
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« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2009, 02:25:24 AM »

Yikes.  What's with people assuming the worst of His All Holiness? 
I know the answer to that. It is common practice (aka Tradition to some) to misrepresent everything the Ecumenical Patriarch say or do.

This is perfectly acceptable as everyone already knows that the he is evil and a mason. He might also possibly be left handed, support Obama and not spit and make the sign of the cross three times if he sees a Muslim.

Also his beard is not long enough.
 Wink

Seriously though, I envy the US. It's not like the Ecumenical Patriarch has much plans to visit his flock in Finland.
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