OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 23, 2014, 08:25:07 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do Cahtolics over-venerate Virgin Mary?  (Read 2468 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« on: September 25, 2009, 06:02:13 PM »

I always hear about the so-called Mariology and how Cahtolics are overdoing it with the Theotokos. Can someone enlighten me on the matter? What do Catholics "add" to Mary (or what do the Orthodox "do not include", if you're a Catholic Tongue)?
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 07:48:13 PM »

From whom do you hear this? I have only heard complaints of this nature from evangelicals.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 07:55:52 PM »

I always hear about the so-called Mariology and how Cahtolics are overdoing it with the Theotokos. Can someone enlighten me on the matter? What do Catholics "add" to Mary (or what do the Orthodox "do not include", if you're a Catholic Tongue)?

I've heard complaints about this from non-Orthodox, non-RC, but rarely (if ever) from the Orthodox.  I think the IC, dogmatic Assumption, and an over-emphasis on a nuanced title (co-Redemptrix) are over-doing it, as well as doing "hail Mary" instead of the Jesus prayer, but that's like criticizing someone who gets an 800 combined on their SAT's for their penmanship... There are more pressing issues at hand Wink
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 07:56:16 PM by cleveland » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 08:58:38 PM »

Indeed this is from a controversial website, but the article itself is well documented, and many of the sources are from within the RCC and the catechism. Some question whether the author actually exists, but "she" has published several books.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 09:35:25 PM »

Just wanted to add, this is one persons viewpoint, who may or may not have been a RC nun. She attacks some Orthodox viewpoints as well.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 09:37:46 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2009, 09:59:23 PM »

Here is one example that is occurring in my neighborhood.  There is a group of RC women who sit in the back of the RC church every morning.  They do not participate in mass but they attend mass.  In unison, they loudly pray their prayers to Mary during the mass.  The priest tries to block them from entering the church during mass because they intentionally disrupt it. Apparently they are part of some national or international group.  My elderly, RC neighbor frequently rants about this “cult” {her words, not mine}.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 10:20:43 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,990


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2009, 10:50:41 PM »

I would say some Catholics do overdue it.  That said I think they are a very small minority.  Also Mariology is the study of the Theotokos a course taught in all Catholic and Orthodox seminaries to my knowledge.  Mariolatry is worship of the Theotokos which I think is what you meant.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2009, 11:43:30 PM »

I have issues with private revelations and apparitions (nearly all of them) and elements of "popular Catholicism" - but have never felt that devotion to Our Lady was "too much." Far from it, I think Roman Catholics, especially those agitating for further dogmatic titles, could better further serve the cause by making better use of existing liturgical feast days such as the Dormition. Don't create new devotions, just make better use of the ones that they have... and stay away from condemned seers (such as the one whose theology underpins "Vox Populi").

Incidently, St. Vladimir's Press sells a book on early sermons on the Dormition, which is actually edited by a Jesuit, Fr. Brian Daley. I just got it in the mail and am looking forward to starting it.
Logged
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 07:55:34 AM »

I've been talking with an Orthodox priest about a Catholic icon where the Holy Trinity crowns the Theotokos. He said something like "...and the icon has some traces of the so-called Catholic Mariolatry...".
Ortho_cat, the link your cited is very poor. Using unofficial beliefs and misconcpetions of tha laity along with Sola Scriptura is an easy way to debunk any Catholic or Orthodox non-biblical doctrine (non-biblical does not mean anti-biblical).

Mariolatry is worship of the Theotokos which I think is what you meant.
Indeed! Thanks for the correction.
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2009, 08:31:14 PM »

I've been talking with an Orthodox priest about a Catholic icon where the Holy Trinity crowns the Theotokos. He said something like "...and the icon has some traces of the so-called Catholic Mariolatry...".
Ortho_cat, the link your cited is very poor. Using unofficial beliefs and misconcpetions of tha laity along with Sola Scriptura is an easy way to debunk any Catholic or Orthodox non-biblical doctrine (non-biblical does not mean anti-biblical).

Mariolatry is worship of the Theotokos which I think is what you meant.
Indeed! Thanks for the correction.

I know, I'm sorry, much of it was protestant propoganda.  Although, I did find that several of the quotes from the previous popes and the exerpts from the catechism were quite revealing, however.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 08:33:43 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2009, 09:20:26 PM »

I have heard some Orthodox accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary or venerating her excessively.  I always refer them to St. John of Damascus.  He uses some of the most elevated language that I have ever seen used when speaking of the Theotokos. 
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2009, 09:23:16 PM »

Here is one example that is occurring in my neighborhood.  There is a group of RC women who sit in the back of the RC church every morning.  They do not participate in mass but they attend mass.  In unison, they loudly pray their prayers to Mary during the mass.  The priest tries to block them from entering the church during mass because they intentionally disrupt it. Apparently they are part of some national or international group.  My elderly, RC neighbor frequently rants about this “cult” {her words, not mine}.

I wonder if they are part of the "Mary is God" movement.  That group teaches that Mary is the Holy Spirit, if I'm not mistaken.  I feel sorry for the priest and parishioners who have to deal with those people.  :-/
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 12:48:09 AM »

I would not say that we venerate the Blessed Mother because it is through Mary that we come to Christ

Happy feast of the presentation of the Blessed Virgin

In Jesus and Mary,
Altar Server
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 04:50:24 AM »

I would not say that we venerate the Blessed Mother because it is through Mary that we come to Christ

Care to expand on what you're saying here?
Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 11:11:09 AM »

I mean yes some Catholics do over venerate the Blessed Mother sometimes even leaving Jesus out of the picture but I don't think that the majority of Catholics over venerate her  and I definitely wouldn't call the rosary over veneration.


In Christ the King and His Most Holy Mother Mary,

Altar Server
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
believer74
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 02:13:50 AM »

This concept of over-veneration is something I have struggled with for some time. I wonder if there might be an individual aspect. I would guess most Orthodox and Catholics would say praying to Mary makes them feel much closer to God. While I really do actually get the concept, honestly I can't say I feel it. Probably the main thing I struggle with in regards to this issue is at what point does one feel closer to, or turn to, Mary, or the patron saint, before God, perhaps seeing her as more compassionate or on 'our side'. What does that do to my relationship with my creator. Just pondering. I didn't aim this at anyone posting before me.
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2009, 02:55:58 AM »

While I really do actually get the concept, honestly I can't say I feel it. Probably the main thing I struggle with in regards to this issue is at what point does one feel closer to, or turn to, Mary, or the patron saint, before God, perhaps seeing her as more compassionate or on 'our side'.

I think you really need to separate those into two issues not one. As pointed out earlier in the thread, believing that any human being, even the Theotokos, is 'more compassionate' than our All-Compassionate Lord is dangerously close to, if not actually heresy. As wonderful as the Theotokos is, she is still a created being. She can no more be 'more compassionate' than the infinite Godhead than she can be 'more all-powerful' or 'more omniscient'.

On the other hand, I often 'feel closer' to my wife, my father, my best friend than I do to God. That doesn't mean they are closer, but limited to my material senses and sinful mind as I am, I certainly feel that way. And while God--being omniscient, being my Creator, having become incarnate--may relate just fine to me, at this point in my progress, I find other human beings more relatable than the transcendent God. If I was a saint, then God would be all I need. But not having reached that point, I still need (or at least desire) the comfort of other human beings as well. And God, in His infinite mercy, gives me that--He has blessed me with a wife, with parents, with friends. He has blessed me with a parish community. And even beyond that, even if calamity tore all those from me, He has blessed me with a patron saint, with other saints that I can respect, relate to, and take as role models, with His own Mother.

One doesn't turn to Mary 'before God' or 'instead of God' any more than one turns to one's family or priest or fellow parishoners 'before' or 'instead of' God. One turns to all of the them *in addition* to God because our fellow Christians, still living, reposed, or glorified, are a community which our Lord has blessed us with.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2009, 03:35:06 AM »

This concept of over-veneration is something I have struggled with for some time. I wonder if there might be an individual aspect. I would guess most Orthodox and Catholics would say praying to Mary makes them feel much closer to God. While I really do actually get the concept, honestly I can't say I feel it. Probably the main thing I struggle with in regards to this issue is at what point does one feel closer to, or turn to, Mary, or the patron saint, before God, perhaps seeing her as more compassionate or on 'our side'. What does that do to my relationship with my creator. Just pondering. I didn't aim this at anyone posting before me.

Our priest teaches us that all intercessory prayer should be supplementary to our primary prayers to God.  I don't think one should ever replace their prayers to God by intercessions.
Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 06:47:38 AM »

This concept of over-veneration is something I have struggled with for some time. I wonder if there might be an individual aspect. I would guess most Orthodox and Catholics would say praying to Mary makes them feel much closer to God. While I really do actually get the concept, honestly I can't say I feel it. Probably the main thing I struggle with in regards to this issue is at what point does one feel closer to, or turn to, Mary, or the patron saint, before God, perhaps seeing her as more compassionate or on 'our side'. What does that do to my relationship with my creator. Just pondering. I didn't aim this at anyone posting before me.

Our priest teaches us that all intercessory prayer should be supplementary to our primary prayers to God.  I don't think one should ever replace their prayers to God by intercessions.

Exactly
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
believer74
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 12:24:40 AM »

While I really do actually get the concept, honestly I can't say I feel it. Probably the main thing I struggle with in regards to this issue is at what point does one feel closer to, or turn to, Mary, or the patron saint, before God, perhaps seeing her as more compassionate or on 'our side'.

I think you really need to separate those into two issues not one. As pointed out earlier in the thread, believing that any human being, even the Theotokos, is 'more compassionate' than our All-Compassionate Lord is dangerously close to, if not actually heresy. As wonderful as the Theotokos is, she is still a created being. She can no more be 'more compassionate' than the infinite Godhead than she can be 'more all-powerful' or 'more omniscient'.

On the other hand, I often 'feel closer' to my wife, my father, my best friend than I do to God. That doesn't mean they are closer, but limited to my material senses and sinful mind as I am, I certainly feel that way. And while God--being omniscient, being my Creator, having become incarnate--may relate just fine to me, at this point in my progress, I find other human beings more relatable than the transcendent God. If I was a saint, then God would be all I need. But not having reached that point, I still need (or at least desire) the comfort of other human beings as well. And God, in His infinite mercy, gives me that--He has blessed me with a wife, with parents, with friends. He has blessed me with a parish community. And even beyond that, even if calamity tore all those from me, He has blessed me with a patron saint, with other saints that I can respect, relate to, and take as role models, with His own Mother.

One doesn't turn to Mary 'before God' or 'instead of God' any more than one turns to one's family or priest or fellow parishoners 'before' or 'instead of' God. One turns to all of the them *in addition* to God because our fellow Christians, still living, reposed, or glorified, are a community which our Lord has blessed us with.
Thanks for that nice answer, I actually hadn't thought of it in quite that way.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2009, 01:18:50 AM »

Also Mariology is the study of the Theotokos a course taught in all Catholic and Orthodox seminaries to my knowledge. 
I've never heard of "Mariology" in an Orthodox seminary. All doctines about the Theotokos are Christological.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2009, 02:09:12 AM »

In the words of St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper" (Panarion, "Against the Collyridians").
Logged
Tags: Theotokos 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 49 queries.