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« on: September 24, 2009, 11:54:57 PM »

Mods: Due to the fact that this topic tends to get heated at times, I placed it in "Politics" instead of "Christian News." Please feel free to move if you think appropriate.

[Since this post was so similar to the one already in Christian News, it has been merged with this thread. No political discussion please.--YtterbiumAnalyst


Negotiations Between UOC-KP and UOC-MP to Begin in October
24.09.2009, [18:46] // Inter-Christian relations //

KYIV — On September 21, 2009, at a press conference, the head of the Information and Publishing Department of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate (UOC-KP) Bishop Yevstratii (Zoria) said that in the first half of October a meeting will be held of the work teams of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate and the UOC-KP for the renewal of the dialogue on the possibility of unification.

According to the bishop, the negotiations between the representatives of the two work teams will begin as a “distance dialogue of the heads as it is usually done in all diplomatic relations.”


http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;31829/
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 07:06:55 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 12:18:22 AM »

Lord have Mercy.
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 10:31:17 AM »

Negotiations Between UOC-KP and UOC-MP to Begin in October
24.09.2009

KYIV - On September 21, 2009, at a press conference, the head of the Information and Publishing Department of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate (UOC-KP) Bishop Yevstratii (Zoria) said that in the first half of October a meeting will be held of the work teams of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate and the UOC-KP for the renewal of the dialogue on the possibility of unification.

According to the bishop, the negotiations between the representatives of the two work teams will begin as a "distance dialogue of the heads as it is usually done in all diplomatic relations."


. http://www.interfax.com.ua/rus/main/20626

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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 12:04:18 PM »

Interesting.  I pray progress is made toward correcting the situation!
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 06:47:14 PM »


5 photos at: http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node/899

KYIV. Meeting of the Working Group of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church with Representatives of the UOC-KP Begins


The first meeting of the working group of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for preparation of the dialogue with representatives of the UOC-KP (set up by the decision of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of September 9, 2009) is being held at the Holy Dormition Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra.

Before the beginning of the meeting the members of the group on the part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church raised prayers for the beginning of all work at the home church of St Nicholas at the residence of the Primate of the UOC and received the blessing of His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr.

Taking part in the meeting on behalf of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church are: Archbishop Mytrofan of Bila Tserkva and Bohuslav, Administrator of the UOC; Archbishop Anthony of Boryspil, Rector of the Kyiv Theological Academy and Seminary, chairman of Educational Committee to the Holy Synod of the UOC, Chairman of the Theological Canonical Commission to the Holy Synod of the UOC; archimandrite Kirill Hovorun, chairman of the Department for External Church Relations of the UOC; archpriest Petro Zuev, chairman of the Department for Information and Public Relations of the Kyiv Diocese of the UOC, Volodymyr Bureha, assistant rector for academic research work. One member of the working group, archpriest Mykhailo Danylevych, co-worker of the Department for External Church Relations is absent accompanying the Icon of the Mother of God of Pochayiv in Canada.

Taking part in the meeting on behalf of the UOC-KP are: head of the working group Metropolitan Dmytriy Rudiuk, Bishop Yevstratiy Zorya, archimandrite Epiphany Dumenko, archpriests Petro Zinych and Oleg Malanyak; postgraduate of the Kyiv Orthodox Theological Academy Mykhailo Syvak.

Upon completion of the meeting the heads of the working groups are going to make official statements for the press.
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2009, 05:15:35 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23355.0.html
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2009, 09:40:54 AM »

Quote
Press Statement

by the head of the Working Group of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for preparation of the dialogue with the representatives of the UOC-KP Archbishop Mytrofan of Bila Tserkva and Bohuslav, Administrator of the UOC 



On September 9, 2009, the Holy Synod of the UOC set up a working group for preparation of the dialogue with the representatives of the UOC-KP (Journal No.45). On October 2, 2009, with the blessing of His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kyiv and All Ukraine this working group met with the representatives of the UOC-KP. The meeting was held on the premises of the Kyiv Metropolis of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church  in the territory of the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra.

This meeting was not the first official contact between our Church and the representatives of the UOC-KP. As early as December 15, 2007, His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr received   at his residence the representatives of the UOC-KP, who had handed to His Beatitude the "Address of the Episcopate of the UOC-KP to the Bishops, Clergy and Faithful of the UOC (in composition of the Moscow Patriarchate)". On July 16, 2008 the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church published the response to this address, which read: "Being aware of the necessity of the quickest overcoming of the ecclesiastical schisms in Ukraine, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is ready for constructive dialogue and cooperation with all the interested parties, including representatives of those church groups which are not in communion with the Universal Orthodoxy".

The initiatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, aimed at overcoming the ecclesiastical splits in Ukraine were supported by the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church, which worked on June 24-29, 2008. In its definition "On the Church Unity" the Council "approved the efforts undertaken by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for overcoming of the schism through the dialogue with those who seceded from the communion with it".  Also His Holiness Patriarch Kirill at the time of his visit to Ukraine in 2009 repeatedly pointed out the necessity of seeking the ways of overcoming the church schisms through the dialogue.   

In the course of the meeting on October 2, 2009 there was an exchange of ideas regarding the principles of establishment of the dialogue between our Church and the representative of the UOC-KP.  The discussion that took place is rendered in the record issued, which will be submitted for consideration of the Holy Synod. It should be noted in particular that the meeting held does not imply the beginning of the official dialogue with the UOC-KP, but is a first step on the way of its preparation. 

The purpose of the future dialogue with the representatives of the UOC-KP is overcoming of the tragic ecclesiastical split existing in Ukraine. The division is a painful wound that needs to be healed.  The existing division causes significant harm to the Orthodox mission in modern Ukraine and works for expansion of the new religious movements of destructive character. Today in the Ukrainian society there is a demand for the ideas of reunification. Therefore the Ukrainian Orthodox Church attempts to provide an important impetus for the social reunification processes as well. 

The fundamental principle of the future dialogue was clearly defined on July 16, 2008, in the response of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church to the "Address of the Holy Synod and Episcopate of the UOC-KP": "At the same time, for the dialogue to be constructive and to lead to the result desired -   the unification of all the orthodox people of Ukraine into one Church, it must be  conducted proceeding from certain principles, i.e. keeping to the canonical rules of the Universal Orthodox Church."  Secession from the canonical Tradition of the Church will lead just to degradation of the ecclesiastical canonical consciousness, which will bring about even more catastrophic consequences for the Church". This important statement of the Holy Synod is a guideline for our workgroup.     


At the same time it should be noted that any kind of dialogue implies mutual respect of the parties. Therefore today we are to overrun the confrontation that unfortunately had always cast shadow over our relations with the UOC-KP.  The Council of Bishops of the UOC of December 21, 2007 called the faithful "to treat those brothers and sisters of ours who still temporary stay out of the salutary Church fencing with Christian love and without enmity".

We are satisfied with the meeting that took place today and hope that the future dialogue will facilitate healing the church split in Ukraine.   

Being aware of the importance of this process, let's ask the Lord for wisdom, power and patience.   


Also read:

Summary Record No.1  of the meeting between the Working Group of the UOC entrusted with responsibility of preparation of the dialogue with the representatives of the UOC-KP and the Working Group of the UOC-KP entrusted with responsibility of preparation of the dialogue with the UOC (Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra, October 2, 2009)

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2009, 06:53:10 PM »

Good. Hope they're really going to talk.
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2009, 07:20:22 PM »

What will essentially happen is that, God willing, if unity is achieved, then those hard-core nationalists in the KP will simply schism off again. They will find a hierarch that expresses hatred of all things Russian and they will run with it.
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2009, 08:41:58 PM »

What will essentially happen is that, God willing, if unity is achieved, then those hard-core nationalists in the KP will simply schism off again. They will find a hierarch that expresses hatred of all things Russian and they will run with it.
Right. Only one side of this conflict has hard-core nationalists. (sense sarcasm?)
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2009, 11:20:13 PM »

What will essentially happen is that, God willing, if unity is achieved, then those hard-core nationalists in the KP will simply schism off again. They will find a hierarch that expresses hatred of all things Russian and they will run with it.
Right. Only one side of this conflict has hard-core nationalists. (sense sarcasm?)

So you are telling me that there is a group in the MP that will be so upset when millions of Ukrainians come under the purview of the MP, that they will enter into schism? Somehow I doubt that. I didn't mention Ukrainian nationalists for kicks, they do have something to lose here.
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 07:52:38 PM »

So you are telling me that there is a group in the MP that will be so upset when millions of Ukrainians come under the purview of the MP, that they will enter into schism? Somehow I doubt that. I didn't mention Ukrainian nationalists for kicks, they do have something to lose here.
There IS a vocal anti-Ukrainian fringe in the UOC, and it includes some of the bishops. If UOC is ever granted autocephaly (even by Moscow), they explicitly threatened to enter into schism. Many people in ROC and UOC define "Orthodox unity" as "allegiance to Moscow" and indeed "Orthodoxy" as "allegiance to the Holy Mother Russia". Indeed, fear of the schism by this group (sometimes claimed to represent "most UOC faithful") is an official excuse not to explore Ukrainian autocephaly idea on part of ROC, and it was expressed by patr. Alexy II, patr. Cyril and met. Volodymyr. Some fringe guys claim supporting national sovereignty of Ukraine or just voting for certain political parties are "against holy Orthodoxy". You honestly didn't know that?
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 10:48:13 PM »

The Anathema against Patriarch Filaret?

Here is what the spokesman for the UOC-MP said:

"In answer to the question if the anathema imposed on Patriarch Filaret will be a stumbling block in the dialogue, Bishop Yevstartii said that the aim of the negotiations was to exchange thoughts and that "in the process of the dialogue, with God's help, the solution to this problem will be found." The UOC-MP spokesman added that the church is a living organism where changes are being made. "Anathema is not a curse in the secular sense. It was imposed at a certain time in certain circumstances," he said."

You can read the whole article here in English Translation:

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;32087/
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 11:29:51 AM »

The Anathema against Patriarch Filaret?

Here is what the spokesman for the UOC-MP said:

"In answer to the question if the anathema imposed on Patriarch Filaret will be a stumbling block in the dialogue, Bishop Yevstartii said that the aim of the negotiations was to exchange thoughts and that "in the process of the dialogue, with God's help, the solution to this problem will be found." The UOC-MP spokesman added that the church is a living organism where changes are being made. "Anathema is not a curse in the secular sense. It was imposed at a certain time in certain circumstances," he said."

You can read the whole article here in English Translation:

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;32087/

LOL!
So basically, they say outright that it is all politics. Why now, why not 10 years ago? Obviously, they do not think much in terms of pastoral care to separated brethren.
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 06:25:59 PM »

The Anathema against Patriarch Filaret?

Here is what the spokesman for the UOC-MP said:

"In answer to the question if the anathema imposed on Patriarch Filaret will be a stumbling block in the dialogue, Bishop Yevstartii said that the aim of the negotiations was to exchange thoughts and that "in the process of the dialogue, with God's help, the solution to this problem will be found." The UOC-MP spokesman added that the church is a living organism where changes are being made. "Anathema is not a curse in the secular sense. It was imposed at a certain time in certain circumstances," he said."

You can read the whole article here in English Translation:

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;32087/

LOL!
So basically, they say outright that it is all politics. Why now, why not 10 years ago? Obviously, they do not think much in terms of pastoral care to separated brethren.

I am just hazarding a guess.... 10 years ago the Russian Synod was focused on +Philaret and his personal wrongdoings.   Perhaps they did not expect the Kiev Patriarchate to endure for so long?

But as matters now stand millions of Ukrainians are outside the Church.  Millions of Ukrainians are receivng not the Eucharust but simply soggy bread and wine because the Patriarch himself was reduced to a layman by his canonical authorities and none of the priests ordained by him are anything but laymen.

So in terms of pastoral care it makes excellent sense to try and bring these separated brethren back into the Church and offer them true Mysteries again.
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 10:03:56 PM »

I would agree that this is more a pastoral move than a political move.  It is not all politics. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 11:38:52 PM »


But as matters now stand millions of Ukrainians are outside the Church.  Millions of Ukrainians are receivng not the Eucharust but simply soggy bread and wine because the Patriarch himself was reduced to a layman by his canonical authorities and none of the priests ordained by him are anything but laymen.

So in terms of pastoral care it makes excellent sense to try and bring these separated brethren back into the Church and offer them true Mysteries again.
As it was for the last 15 years. Why now? Plus, according to the quote, the "reduction to a laymen" may not be as definite and permanent as it was but a mere week ago. LOL!

But I agree this is positive development.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2009, 11:43:38 PM »


I am just hazarding a guess.... 10 years ago the Russian Synod was focused on +Philaret and his personal wrongdoings.   
That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen. Especially when that one person was, for years, the SECOND MOST INFLUENTIAL ONE in their ranks (briefly, THE most influential - and senior) - is the rest of ROCs episcopate THAT different?
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 04:11:56 AM »

[As it was for the last 15 years. Why now?
What are the reasons for not now?  Things have clearly changed and this change could be connected with the arrival of a new Patriarch for the Russian Church and his recent tour of the Ukraine.

Quote
Especially when that one person was, for years, the SECOND MOST INFLUENTIAL ONE in their ranks (briefly, THE most influential - and senior) - is the rest of ROCs episcopate THAT different?
 

The Church has to be administered as Saint Paul commands "properly and in good order."   One bishop simply cannot hive off on his own, create a new competing Church in a territory and set himself up as Patriarch of the new Church.
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 01:21:13 PM »

What are the reasons for not now?  Things have clearly changed and this change could be connected with the arrival of a new Patriarch for the Russian Church and his recent tour of the Ukraine.
In other words, politics. Typical.
The Church has to be administered as Saint Paul commands "properly and in good order."   One bishop simply cannot hive off on his own, create a new competing Church in a territory and set himself up as Patriarch of the new Church.
I could argue about details here (like, he didn't REALLY hived off on his own, he assembled a Sobor and pled to MP first), but I tend to agree. Filaret is at least as prone to petty politicking as any other old-school ROC bishop. Relevance?
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 05:53:14 PM »


I am just hazarding a guess.... 10 years ago the Russian Synod was focused on +Philaret and his personal wrongdoings.   
That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen.

Birds of a feather.  In the bishops' department, choosing a bishop chooses who you are in communion with.  That's the idea behind dyptichs.


Quote
Especially when that one person was, for years, the SECOND MOST INFLUENTIAL ONE in their ranks (briefly, THE most influential - and senior)

how the mighty have fallen: what was Lucifer's rank before he became Satan?


Quote
- is the rest of ROCs episcopate THAT different?

Evidently, yes.
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 08:11:55 PM »

That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen.

Birds of a feather.  In the bishops' department, choosing a bishop chooses who you are in communion with.  That's the idea behind dyptichs.
Admirable show of mercy, thanks.  I'm sorry, but some Ukrainians have hard time doing the right choice - be in communion with Filaret or with someone who teaches that their mother tongue is abomination before God and betrayal of Orthodoxy (not met. Volodymyr, but some bishops under him - and in ROC). Besides, didn't Jesus eat with sinners?


Quote
- is the rest of ROCs episcopate THAT different?

Evidently, yes.
Evidently, no.
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 08:27:10 PM »

That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen.

Birds of a feather.  In the bishops' department, choosing a bishop chooses who you are in communion with.  That's the idea behind dyptichs.
Admirable show of mercy, thanks.  I'm sorry, but some Ukrainians have hard time doing the right choice - be in communion with Filaret or with someone who teaches that their mother tongue is abomination before God and betrayal of Orthodoxy (not met. Volodymyr, but some bishops under him - and in ROC). Besides, didn't Jesus eat with sinners?

Yes, but He didn't commune with them. Or should we, as I see suggested, open communion to everyone in Ukraine-Orthodox, schismatic, Vatican-sponsered-one big happy family?

is the rest of ROCs episcopate THAT different?

Evidently, yes.
Evidently, no.

 Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 08:27:53 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 09:11:48 PM »

That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen.

Birds of a feather.  In the bishops' department, choosing a bishop chooses who you are in communion with.  That's the idea behind dyptichs.
Admirable show of mercy, thanks.  I'm sorry, but some Ukrainians have hard time doing the right choice - be in communion with Filaret or with someone who teaches that their mother tongue is abomination before God and betrayal of Orthodoxy (not met. Volodymyr, but some bishops under him - and in ROC). Besides, didn't Jesus eat with sinners?

Yes, but He didn't commune with them. Or should we, as I see suggested, open communion to everyone in Ukraine-Orthodox, schismatic, Vatican-sponsered-one big happy family?
Way to go addressing the issue! Just call opposite side "Satan" and go about your business. Real smooth.

I can commune with people who want my country destroyed - or with you, who call my compatriots "Satan" for having patriotic feelings. Some of Ukrainians can't (or at least be UNDER bishops like that) - call it nationalist, ignorant of ecclesiology, "enemies of the Church" or just too sensitive. I can't blame them. Filaret basically exploits these sentiments (and "Mother" Church's imperial instincts) for his benefit. Thanks for feeding the schism, ialmisry.
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 10:05:30 PM »

Lord, have mercy!

I am so eager that these negotiations, finally, bring fruit. It is incredibly pleasant to me to read lines like, "you know, we all made mistakes... we are all imperfect..." etc. in the official statements published about these negotiations. It is so mauch better than to read in UOC (former UOC-MP) sources that these "Filaretian schismatics" are bad and evil and Nationalist and non-Orthodox and what not, or to read in UOC-KP sources that there can't possibly be any negotiations with these "Kremlin-backed Russian chauvinist pseudo-Orthodox usurpers" because those are not Christian and not historically substantiated and what not.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, please, look at my country, Ukraine, and help her come to her own path of righteousness and prosperity. Unite her people, even if they are of different ethnic and/or linguistic backgrounds. Guide her, protect her, nourish her, defend her from her enemies, help her to become a prosperous nation, a member of the family of sovereign nations of the world, free from any oppression from outside, from any force that, yet another time, wishes to annex and subjugate her, to dissolve her, making her merely a "territory" with convenient resources and mute, memory-amputated people...

Please, Lord, look over these negotiations! Help them to come to some progress, at least a little bit!
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2009, 11:36:57 PM »

That's admirable focus for higher clergy. Yes, by all means, focus on one person's personal wrongdoings - forget millions of pesky laymen.

Birds of a feather.  In the bishops' department, choosing a bishop chooses who you are in communion with.  That's the idea behind dyptichs.
Admirable show of mercy, thanks.  I'm sorry, but some Ukrainians have hard time doing the right choice - be in communion with Filaret or with someone who teaches that their mother tongue is abomination before God and betrayal of Orthodoxy (not met. Volodymyr, but some bishops under him - and in ROC). Besides, didn't Jesus eat with sinners?

Yes, but He didn't commune with them. Or should we, as I see suggested, open communion to everyone in Ukraine-Orthodox, schismatic, Vatican-sponsered-one big happy family?
Way to go addressing the issue! Just call opposite side "Satan" and go about your business. Real smooth.

I didn't call anyone Satan but Satan.  You made a bizarre appeal to authority, and I exposed the fallacy of it.  Nothing more.



Quote
I can commune with people who want my country destroyed - or with you, who call my compatriots "Satan" for having patriotic feelings.

Russophobia seems to have affected your eyesight.  And I question "Patriarch" Filaret's "patriotic feelings" when he found them when we was being defrocked, and not for "patriotic feelings."  Did he find them when he didn't get the miter of Moscow?


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Some of Ukrainians can't (or at least be UNDER bishops like that) - call it nationalist, ignorant of ecclesiology, "enemies of the Church" or just too sensitive. I can't blame them. Filaret basically exploits these sentiments (and "Mother" Church's imperial instincts) for his benefit. Thanks for feeding the schism, ialmisry.

A spade's a spade, and a schism based on a personality cult exploiting phyletism  and grudges, real or perceived, is just a schism.  People join at their own risk.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Stanislav
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 01:40:21 AM »


Russophobia seems to have affected your eyesight.  And I question "Patriarch" Filaret's "patriotic feelings" when he found them when we was being defrocked, and not for "patriotic feelings."  Did he find them when he didn't get the miter of Moscow?
I have no idea. I don't care much about messr. Denysenko personally. His flock, well... that's another story.
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