Author Topic: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God  (Read 51906 times)

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Offline irishorthodox

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #135 on: August 13, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »
2natures; one person Who is fully man, fully God.
The term is not apocrypha but deuterocanon (spell)
True Theotokos we magnify thee
The Son is eternally begotten of the Father and has always existed but is not fragmented as a manufactured machine with one part made in China and another in USA and later assembled. 
One person; two natures
While his human nature came from Mary, it would be wrong to say she gave birth to the man but not the Devine.  She gave birth to our LORD God the Son and is TRUE Theotokos.
You know part of this is indeed beyond my understanding, but for me to utter that is moronic, for God is infinite for me to imply that I could completely understand God would be hyperbolic huberous.
I have a big problem with the Scholastic Movement for this reason. Instead many mystical truths must be accepted without complete understanding.  This where obedience comes in.  I am wary of complex explanations of mystical truths. Truth may evade us but when it is reveled it is as obvious ,simple, straight forward as the sun on a clear October morning.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #136 on: August 13, 2013, 11:23:52 AM »
:-[ My bad.
Well, Mary gave birth to Christ. Yes only to his human nature but tell me... Are His natures split? 8)

God became flesh at the Annunciation. Flesh and Spirit are God in this case. Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God.  Christ is both flesh and spirit as we speak. They are inseparable.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 11:24:20 AM by JoeS2 »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #137 on: August 13, 2013, 11:24:36 AM »
:-[ My bad.
Well, Mary gave birth to Christ. Yes only to his human nature but tell me... Are His natures split? 8)

No, she did not give birth only to the human nature.  The human nature derives only from her, but she gave birth to the one person, Christ.    
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Offline Nikolaos Greek

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #138 on: August 13, 2013, 04:17:11 PM »
Oh I am sorry I didn't know that. Thanks for informing me. I thought that she gave birth only to the human nature of Christ his body and soul.
Thanks for drawing me away from this heretic mistake  :angel:
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #139 on: August 13, 2013, 04:21:16 PM »
Who birthed Christ then if St. Mary didn't? Did Christ just poof into existence?*

*As a human being, that is.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 04:22:43 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #140 on: January 29, 2015, 12:14:05 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #141 on: January 29, 2015, 12:17:39 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2015, 12:37:21 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 12:38:40 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline biro

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2015, 12:40:39 AM »
Since the Orthodox do call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, it is obvious that we do not accept the neo-Protestant argument.

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2015, 12:42:16 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

More like lawyer's litigation  :P

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2015, 12:50:08 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.

Well, I don't know what the Orthodox argument is in general, but it seems to me that our Lord was offering them the riddle of the Incarnation. If David called him Lord, indeed, how is He his Son? How can the Lord be Son of God and Son of Man at the same time? The inability to solve this riddle led the scribes and Pharisees to crucify God Incarnate.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2015, 12:55:46 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.

Well, I don't know what the Orthodox argument is in general, but it seems to me that our Lord was offering them the riddle of the Incarnation. If David called him Lord, indeed, how is He his Son? How can the Lord be Son of God and Son of Man at the same time? The inability to solve this riddle led the scribes and Pharisees to crucify God Incarnate.
So you're saying it isn't a rhetorical question, eh? I always assumed the implied answer is, "he can't be."
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2015, 12:57:07 AM »
Since the Orthodox do call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, it is obvious that we do not accept the neo-Protestant argument.

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
I know. I was just wondering why Orthodox don't accept the argument.

Luke 1:43 would not have an effect on calling her Christotokos.
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Offline biro

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2015, 12:57:44 AM »
Since the Orthodox do call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, it is obvious that we do not accept the neo-Protestant argument.

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
I know. I was just wondering why Orthodox don't accept the argument.

Luke 1:43 would not have an effect on calling her Christotokos.

Yeah, it would.
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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2015, 01:00:50 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.

Well, I don't know what the Orthodox argument is in general, but it seems to me that our Lord was offering them the riddle of the Incarnation. If David called him Lord, indeed, how is He his Son? How can the Lord be Son of God and Son of Man at the same time? The inability to solve this riddle led the scribes and Pharisees to crucify God Incarnate.
So you're saying it isn't a rhetorical question, eh? I always assumed the implied answer is, "he can't be."

Except we know that's not true. Our Lord called Himself Son of Man, Son of God, and responded to Son of David (when referred to as such by Bartimaeus). He is all, just as He is both Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. The Incarnation is the most perplexing paradox, surprising even the angels into curiosity.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2015, 01:07:05 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.
he is often called the ancestor of God.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2015, 01:07:32 AM »
Since the Orthodox do call the Virgin Mary the Mother of God, it is obvious that we do not accept the neo-Protestant argument.

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
I know. I was just wondering why Orthodox don't accept the argument.

Luke 1:43 would not have an effect on calling her Christotokos.

Yeah, it would.
I guess it would yeah... I'm confused now.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2015, 01:09:54 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.

Well, I don't know what the Orthodox argument is in general, but it seems to me that our Lord was offering them the riddle of the Incarnation. If David called him Lord, indeed, how is He his Son? How can the Lord be Son of God and Son of Man at the same time? The inability to solve this riddle led the scribes and Pharisees to crucify God Incarnate.
So you're saying it isn't a rhetorical question, eh? I always assumed the implied answer is, "he can't be."

Except we know that's not true. Our Lord called Himself Son of Man, Son of God, and responded to Son of David (when referred to as such by Bartimaeus). He is all, just as He is both Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. The Incarnation is the most perplexing paradox, surprising even the angels into curiosity.
Yeah, you would seem to be interpreting it correctly.

he is often called the ancestor of God.
Yeah, I thought that that was true of Orthodoxy, but I couldn't find a reference on it.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2015, 07:42:07 AM »
If I could add further, it seems that the view these quasi-Nestorian authors are attacking is not the Orthodox or Catholic one, but a straw-man of our position. They seem to believe that when we say God-bearer/Theotokos, we are saying that the Word/Son/2nd Person of the Trinity actually originated within the Theotokos' womb, not coming into existence until that moment. That's not what we believe at all though. He existed for all eternity as part of the Godhead. This did not happen at the Incarnation, rather, He merely became Incarnate as a human being in our world at that moment. The Theotokos is the bearer of God in that she is the one who gave birth to 2nd Person of the Trinity at His Incarnation, NOT at His existence. She was the mode by which He--God--became incarnate as a human being; not by which He came into existence. Furthermore, these Nestorian-like distinctions seem to suggest a belief that Christ wasn't truly God. If Christ was God, then what difference does it make saying Christ-bearer than God-bearer? Is Christ not God? Was He not God when He was in her womb? Was He not God when He was being born?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2015, 09:20:34 AM »
If I could add further, it seems that the view these quasi-Nestorian authors are attacking is not the Orthodox or Catholic one, but a straw-man of our position. They seem to believe that when we say God-bearer/Theotokos, we are saying that the Word/Son/2nd Person of the Trinity actually originated within the Theotokos' womb, not coming into existence until that moment. That's not what we believe at all though. He existed for all eternity as part of the Godhead. This did not happen at the Incarnation, rather, He merely became Incarnate as a human being in our world at that moment. The Theotokos is the bearer of God in that she is the one who gave birth to 2nd Person of the Trinity at His Incarnation, NOT at His existence. She was the mode by which He--God--became incarnate as a human being; not by which He came into existence. Furthermore, these Nestorian-like distinctions seem to suggest a belief that Christ wasn't truly God. If Christ was God, then what difference does it make saying Christ-bearer than God-bearer? Is Christ not God? Was He not God when He was in her womb? Was He not God when He was being born?

Excellent post especially the part of Incarnation vs. existence.  After all The Word could have chosen to come into the world as a fully grown person but chose the humble means of having a Mother through birth.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2015, 11:27:38 AM »
So, what is the Orthodox response to those who use the verse about David calling Christ Lord to say that she cannot be the Mother of God?

People make this argument?  What's the argument?

Quote
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Matt 22:42-46)

The argument is that if David can be Jesus' biological ancestor without being His father/ancestor, then so can the Virgin Mary. They often ask that if Mary is Mother of God why it would then be improper to call David the Father of God.

LOL.  This is what they do with sola Scriptura?  Ridiculous. 

As FormerReformer said, it's a riddle about the Incarnation: Christ is David's Son and David's Lord.  He was called "Son of David" many times and never corrected it, even when he was asked to do so by the Pharisees while he entered Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday".  If they could claim "We have Abraham for our father" when disputing with Christ, surely Christ can call (both Abraham and) David "father". 

Why can Mary be called "Mother of God" but David is not called "Father of God"?  "Mother of God" is not a generic term for female ancestors no matter how close or far apart generationally, but rather is specific to the direct relationship between the woman Mary and the Child she bore in her womb.  We do not call St Anna "Mother of God", though the grandmother/grandchild relationship is certainly "maternal", nor do we refer to Eve, Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, etc. as "Mother of God".  It only applies to Mary.

It follows, then, that to create an equivalent label for a "paternal" figure of Christ's requires that it be used only for the direct relationship between a man and the child he begets: but in the case of Christ, that can only be said of God the Father, whose only-begotten Son he is--it can be said of no male human being at all.  Even though Christ was regarded on earth as "Joseph's son" and Mary herself, speaking to Christ, refers to Joseph as "your father", we never refer to Joseph as "Father of God" because the kind of direct relationship which makes this sort of title possible is simply not there.  It only applies to God the Father.

As Isa said, we refer to David and others as "Ancestors of God" because it affirms the same Incarnational truth which is affirmed by "Mother of God", and in a generic sense we can speak of fathers and mothers, but "Mother of God" is specific.  "Father of God" can only be as specific, and such a thing only is true of God the Father.   
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 11:28:08 AM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2015, 11:36:01 AM »
Every christian must accept Mariam as mother of God.

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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2015, 12:09:42 PM »
Every christian must accept Mariam as mother of God.

I think that there are probably many Christians who do not realize that the Theotokos is their mother.
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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #158 on: January 29, 2015, 04:47:20 PM »
If the Theotokos is not the Mother of God then God didn't really become incarnate since humans have mothers. You cannot separate Christ's divinity and His humanity otherwise you split apart His personhood and/or deny His humanity.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Re: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God
« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2015, 04:58:00 PM »
If I could add further, it seems that the view these quasi-Nestorian authors are attacking is not the Orthodox or Catholic one, but a straw-man of our position. They seem to believe that when we say God-bearer/Theotokos, we are saying that the Word/Son/2nd Person of the Trinity actually originated within the Theotokos' womb, not coming into existence until that moment. That's not what we believe at all though. He existed for all eternity as part of the Godhead. This did not happen at the Incarnation, rather, He merely became Incarnate as a human being in our world at that moment. The Theotokos is the bearer of God in that she is the one who gave birth to 2nd Person of the Trinity at His Incarnation, NOT at His existence. She was the mode by which He--God--became incarnate as a human being; not by which He came into existence. Furthermore, these Nestorian-like distinctions seem to suggest a belief that Christ wasn't truly God. If Christ was God, then what difference does it make saying Christ-bearer than God-bearer? Is Christ not God? Was He not God when He was in her womb? Was He not God when He was being born?
Good point. I rather have a feeling that the authors of the article would wind up agreeing with RC Sproul's Nestorian view that only the human nature of Christ some how made Atonement.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman