Author Topic: Our Salvation  (Read 1410 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2015, 05:50:38 PM »
So, even murderers and rapists will be saved as long as they have a faith?

It depends what you mean by -ers and -ists! If those suffixes mean that such activities spring from the settled, unchanged nature of the criminal, then the answer is no. But when another man seduced my wife, many years ago, I felt very much like driving a rusty knife into his gut and twisting it till he died a painful death. I didn't do it (!), but if I had, do you think God would have said to me, "David, you have sinned, and you can never come back to me"? I think there would have been room for remorse, repentance and return. As for rape - well, surely the same principle applies. If, in a moment of weakness, folly and opportunity, I were to rape an attractive and coquettish young woman, would that bar the way to repentance and forgiveness against me for all time? Surely God's grace is such that even such sins were covered at Calvary, and can be forgiven. But the repentance must of course be sincere.

I love to preach on the story of King Manasseh in the Old Testament. Can there possibly be a more sin-soaked man that he was? Yet in the end he turned and found mercy and forgiveness. This is the Gospel I hold out to those I preach to, having found mercy myself at Calvary.


Quote
Do the Calvinists believe that at least they need to repent their sins?

I have not said that I am a Calvinist, but I think I can explain something of their tenets. Again, it depends on what is meant by "need to repent". Certainly it is written in Acts that God commands all men everywhere to repent. But I think you may be asking this: If a real Christian were to fall into an appallingly heinous sin, would he need to repent if he were to avoid everlasting damnation? Certainly he ought to repent; certainly God calls him to repent: but there is the man in Corinth who was living incestuously with his own mother or step-mother, who was to be "delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5). It seems that here was a man who had become a believer, had fallen into serious sin,  and who would not repent and break off his sin; the expectation was that he would die in his sin.

Quote
And what verses of the Bible do Calvinists base such a belief of Eternal Security?  

For a full treatment you would need to read a Calvinist systematic theology. There are many passages which point, or seem to point by their plain surface meaning, to this belief. "None shall pluck them out of my hand"; "nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ"; "he will save his people from their sins". But it's more than just a string of proof texts - the doctrine is part of an entire system of thought, based on unconditional election and the idea that if Christ died to save me and in the end I am lost, then Christ failed, which is unthinkable: therefore, if he died for me, I shall and must be saved, therefore he died only for the elect. I am not saying I hold these teachings; I am trying to answer your question about what Calvinists (many of whom these days prefer the title Reformed) teach.


Thank you for sharing your knowledge,David!
Ive learned a few things now.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline David Young

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,903
  • 2012, at the Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr
    • Some of my sermons preached at Bradley Road
  • Faith: Baptist
  • Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2015, 06:04:12 PM »
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

Quote
What I mean is If one believes that he's ... now Eternally Saved, goes on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway , surely there must be some kind of limits even in Calvinism..?

Aren't you here really asking whether there are limits, not to Calvinism (which hardly matters one way or the other), but to God's mercy? I don't think such a person would "go on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway," but would be more like the people I describe in my above paragraph. If he didn't care about the fact that he was repeatedly falling into sin, it is not likely that he would be a child of God. We are not to presume on God's mercy: thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (or "put the Lord to the test"). This would be akin to the temptations Satan put to our Lord in the wilderness: throw yourself down from the temple - God will protect you anyway.

May the Lord give us grace to grieve bitterly over our sins, but may he never cease to have mercy upon us. Such at least is my need before him.

Quote
What I am trying to say is that Protestants,such as Calvinists, in my opinion, would be less afraid to sin due to their belief Once Save Always Saved, than say an Orthodox who believe that he should avoid sinning at all costs because a sin is an obstacle to the path of Salvation..

We are here speculating about other people's inner anxieties or sense of security. Such a person might, as you say, feel less afraid of eternal damnation, but sin is certainly an obstacle on the path of sanctification and growth in conformity to Christ's character, and the real "fear of the Lord" is not only fear of hell, but a deeply sensitive desire not to offend the God who has done so much for us, indeed, whose Son paid such an awful price for our salvation when he hung nailed to a Roman cross.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 06:10:54 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,556
  • 1951-2015 Memory Eternal Uncle Roy--40 Days of Mourning.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2015, 06:09:41 PM »
If that is how the omnipotent God has chosen to relate to us, we cannot oppose his decision.

No, but it doesn't mean He's right though. This type of God sounds unlikable.

Quote
the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.

He could have always offer us the option to not exist. He never gave us that choice but like a Divine Jigsaw, forced every human being who exists into playing His cosmic chess game where the repercussions for failure are eternal. And nobody asked to be in it; He forced us to. He never gave the option to not exist.

God caring about what humans think of Him and judging them based off that would be like me throwing my sister's ant farm in the fireplace because they won't praise me. It's kind of absurd, and seems to suggest narcissism and a strong sense of insecurity.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

I know what you are trying to say here...what I would say in this case is that we should not be saying that no matter what we do we will be saved regardless, this sort of doctrine gives us an excuse to do what ever one wishes...I could be wrong but nobody should be 100% sure of his salvation until the Judgement Day, until then we should try to continusly be as righteous as possible and pray for God's mercy ahead for the Last day.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2015, 02:23:33 PM »
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

Quote
What I mean is If one believes that he's ... now Eternally Saved, goes on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway , surely there must be some kind of limits even in Calvinism..?

Aren't you here really asking whether there are limits, not to Calvinism (which hardly matters one way or the other), but to God's mercy? I don't think such a person would "go on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway," but would be more like the people I describe in my above paragraph. If he didn't care about the fact that he was repeatedly falling into sin, it is not likely that he would be a child of God. We are not to presume on God's mercy: thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (or "put the Lord to the test"). This would be akin to the temptations Satan put to our Lord in the wilderness: throw yourself down from the temple - God will protect you anyway.

May the Lord give us grace to grieve bitterly over our sins, but may he never cease to have mercy upon us. Such at least is my need before him.

Last question on this, do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?
I think we will all be judged and should not be so confident that, no matter what we do in our lives, we will are guaranted to be saved, this will be ultimately up to God at the end of the day.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2015, 02:33:44 PM »
If that is how the omnipotent God has chosen to relate to us, we cannot oppose his decision.

No, but it doesn't mean He's right though. This type of God sounds unlikable.

Quote
the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.

He could have always offer us the option to not exist. He never gave us that choice but like a Divine Jigsaw, forced every human being who exists into playing His cosmic chess game where the repercussions for failure are eternal. And nobody asked to be in it; He forced us to. He never gave the option to not exist.

God caring about what humans think of Him and judging them based off that would be like me throwing my sister's ant farm in the fireplace because they won't praise me. It's kind of absurd, and seems to suggest narcissism and a strong sense of insecurity.
I'd not speak about Him like that. At the end of the day God has given you life. He has laid out the rules which you should adhere to and if it's difficult for you, then it's not God's issue it is yours. You have a free will/choice to either do it or not and then see what happen in the after life...
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline David Young

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,903
  • 2012, at the Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr
    • Some of my sermons preached at Bradley Road
  • Faith: Baptist
  • Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2015, 04:51:05 PM »
do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?

Yes, as you say:

Quote
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.

What will be decided is not whether a person shall be saved or damned, but (for Christians) what reward, if any, may be assigned for his works.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 04:51:28 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2015, 03:43:24 PM »
do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?

Yes, as you say:

Quote
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.

What will be decided is not whether a person shall be saved or damned, but (for Christians) what reward, if any, may be assigned for his works.



So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline David Young

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,903
  • 2012, at the Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr
    • Some of my sermons preached at Bradley Road
  • Faith: Baptist
  • Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2015, 04:46:25 PM »
So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?

I think this takes me beyond what I foreknow. The "mechanism" of the judgement is not known to us in that detail, I think. I am saying that no true Christian will be sent to hell, and that all our works will be judged, some being entirely burnt up and thus lost, others gaining rewards in the coming age. But how God will balance good and bad works, sin and virtue, lies beyond my ken. We know this though, that the Judge of all the earth will certainly not err.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,178
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Our Salvation
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2015, 03:40:29 PM »
So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?

I think this takes me beyond what I foreknow. The "mechanism" of the judgement is not known to us in that detail, I think. I am saying that no true Christian will be sent to hell, and that all our works will be judged, some being entirely burnt up and thus lost, others gaining rewards in the coming age. But how God will balance good and bad works, sin and virtue, lies beyond my ken. We know this though, that the Judge of all the earth will certainly not err.
Thank you David for explaining the Protestant view of Salvation.
Much appreciate.

God bless.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 03:40:42 PM by andrewlya »
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.