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Author Topic: Will Greece ever get Constantinople back?  (Read 16525 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 24, 2009, 01:55:01 AM »

Will it ever happen?  Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?  I know its been tried before and failed but, could it really succede?

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?

Just wondering..
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2009, 02:15:16 AM »

No.

Next thread please.
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2009, 02:29:36 AM »

Yes.

Please see this thread

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19663.msg293378.html#msg293378
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2009, 04:09:49 AM »

No.

Unfortunately, just greek dreams.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2009, 08:06:19 AM »

No, but they might get Istanbul someday.
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2009, 08:43:42 AM »

Sure. The question would be if they would do for Orthodox Christianity what Zionism has done to Orthodox Judaism.
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2009, 09:05:27 AM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?
There was never a "Byzantine Empire", it was the Eastern Roman Empire.
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 09:41:11 AM »

I hope so.
If we ever do, I hope that there will be no war necessary.

Anyone who has posted in this thread can have a drink from me once we get Contantinople back. It's a promise. Grin
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2009, 10:03:06 AM »

There were times (and sometimes still are) when I wonder about this and lament that it is no longer a place with many Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Christians. However I've come to the point now where I fear nationalism, especially when Orthodox try and connect their specific country with a kind of nationalism that clings to religious ideals. As has been pointed out, Constantinople was never a part of Greece, but rather the Roman Empire. We also must remember that things weren't so perfect in the "Byzantine"/Roman Empire either. Even if all of Cappadocia & western Turkey were returned to "Christian" nations, it wouldn't institute some golden age of Orthodoxy.

Instead, let us consider this... Is it better that it remain under the Turks for now? Or would it be best if a western nation were given control? Would non-Orthodox in those countries be persecuted just as bad or worse under an "Orthodox" country or would peace be better preserved with another country controlling it.

We must strive to stay away from nationalistic fervor, ESPECIALLY the kind that tries to mold nationalism with religion.
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 10:32:06 AM »

When Holy Russia decides to rise up and crush the followers of Satan in Turkey, then shall the throne of Constantine be raised up again.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 12:04:56 PM »

Russia's population growth shows two distinct trends:

- Among the ethnic Orthodox Russians, the population growth rate is minus 0.49 (2009)

- Among the Muslim Russians of various ethnicities, the rate is at least plus 1.0.

This means that within a few decades the ethnic Orthodox Russians will be a minority in Russia. I don't know about you but I have a hard time even thinking "Holy Russia" when Russia is a predominantly Muslim country. Of course, I hope this trend is reversed.

In the meantime, the other nations' growth rates in the old Eastern Roman Empire are:

Turkey:      + 1.31
Greece:      + 0.13
Bulgaria:     - 0.79
Macedonia: + 0.26
Albania:     + 0.55
Serbia:       - 0.47
Syria:        + 2.13
Israel:       + 1.67
Egypt:       + 1.64

As a comparison:
USA:          + 0.98

If there is a pattern, it is that the Muslims are growing in numbers while the Orthodox are stagnant or declining. Bottom line: whoever is going to do the deed, they better do it real fast.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 12:51:57 PM »

Quote
Russia is a predominantly Muslim country

Umm, that is definitely not an accurate statement at all...

20 Million Muslims in Russia
vs.
100 Million Orthodox Christians in Russia

I think you need to recheck your numbers... It would take SEVERAL decades, even possibly more than a century for Muslims to outnumber Orthodox Christians in Russia based soley on birth/death and migration rates.
_______________________________

I also tend to not really believe in a lot of these demographics that come out, ESPECIALLY the demographics suggesting that Islam is going to wipe out all other religions because of their growth rates based on births/deaths.
I mean really, this almost seems along the same lines of the doomsday people that suggest countries like Japan and others are going to die off because they have fewer and fewer people being born.
Or the people who claim the world is going to implode because we are having too many children and we are going to overpopulate the Earth.

It all seems to be doomsday hooey to me...
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 12:56:33 PM »

When Holy Russia decides to rise up and crush the followers of Satan in Turkey, then shall the throne of Constantine be raised up again.  

Indeed - the throne was able to be lifted and lowered, as part of the "shock and awe" effect of entering the royal throne room.  But, before the throne of Constantine is raised up again, they may need to grease some wheels (WD-40) and change out some old ropes.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 01:00:07 PM »

Quote
Russia is a predominantly Muslim country

Umm, that is definitely not an accurate statement at all...

His statement is tied to the previous one - that Muslims may in the future outnumber the Orthodox in Russia; thus, it is building off that point (i.e. when the Muslims outnumber the Orthodox in Russia, it will be hard for me to think of it as "Holy Russia," since the Muslims will be in the majority).

20 Million Muslims in Russia
vs.
100 Million Orthodox Christians in Russia

I think you need to recheck your numbers... It would take SEVERAL decades, even possibly more than a century for Muslims to outnumber Orthodox Christians in Russia based soley on birth/death and migration rates.
_______________________________

I also tend to not really believe in a lot of these demographics that come out, ESPECIALLY the demographics suggesting that Islam is going to wipe out all other religions because of their growth rates based on births/deaths.
I mean really, this almost seems along the same lines of the doomsday people that suggest countries like Japan and others are going to die off because they have fewer and fewer people being born.
Or the people who claim the world is going to implode because we are having too many children and we are going to overpopulate the Earth.

It all seems to be doomsday hooey to me...

It's only doomsday hooey if it doesn't come true, and only doomsday prophesy if it does.  However, the "doomsday prediction" is sound when based on one premise: if the trends continue unaltered, then X will happen.  Of course, there have been many times when such trends have been altered by other factors (war, disease, famine, etc.), so it's a bit of a stretch to presume that they won't change at all.
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 01:06:20 PM »

Well, and the fact that a lot of this is perpetrated by the media, who seem to blow things out of proportion regularly anyway. When have predictions about the future ever really come true? (that is, when they predict a massive, world-altering occurance)

I think prophecy, true prophecy only ever has come from the Prophets, and the prophecy was about God's people and the coming of Christ (both the first and the second).
We can predict and play "prophet" all we want to, but for the most part, I think we will (almost) always be wrong.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 01:25:40 PM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?
There was never a "Byzantine Empire", it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

True. So then perhaps the question should be "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?" While that would be great, IMO don't count on it.

Quote
Russia is a predominantly Muslim country

Umm, that is definitely not an accurate statement at all...

20 Million Muslims in Russia
vs.
100 Million Orthodox Christians in Russia

I thought it was 100 million Russians who are Orthodox, i.e. 100 million worldwide not just in Russia.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 01:27:41 PM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?
There was never a "Byzantine Empire", it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

True. So then perhaps the question should be "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?" While that would be great, IMO don't count on it.

They weren't Greeks - they were Romans.  Yes, they spoke Greek, and were called Greeks by the westerners, and even adopted the identity of Greeks later on, but they were true Romans.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 01:39:40 PM »

Yes I know this but who are their descendants (i.e. ethnically)? The modern Greeks or the modern Italians? The modern Greeks off course, remember that the Turks eventually kicked most of them out of Mikra Asia in the early 20th century (my great grandparents included) and they came to Greece as refugees. So then the question still stands (as I understand it): "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?"
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 01:41:52 PM »

A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

I learn something every day on this forum.  Thank you ozgeorge.   Smiley

After skimming the Wikipedia article, in Pletho's era, the Byzantine Administrators ignored everything that Pletho suggested; However, Pletho's ideas, though heavily modified, have survived to this very day in the Greek Diaspora especially in the secular Greek organizations and their past love for the "benevolent monarchs," the Kings of Greece (descendents themselves of Eastern Roman Emperors).  The idea of Constantinople being restored ended in 1924 along with the caliphate.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 02:18:32 PM »

Most people of southern Italian and Sicilian blood (myself included)   are descended from Greek colonist in that region.  I think they mixed with Etruscan's or some type of Latin people which produced the present Southern Italian race.

Of course, the whole region was once part of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empire and the Church there was under the EP and not Rome ( I believe). Does this mean that Southern Italians and Sicilians are actually Hellenes?
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 02:33:08 PM »

Most people of southern Italian and Sicilian blood (myself included)   are descended from Greek colonist in that region.  I think they mixed with Etruscan's or some type of Latin people which produced the present Southern Italian race.

Of course, the whole region was once part of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) empire and the Church there was under the EP and not Rome ( I believe). Does this mean that Southern Italians and Sicilians are actually Hellenes?

I think in part yes, there's also some Arab & Moor (Berber) in the mix. South Italians are definitely different to North Italians.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2009, 03:14:09 PM »

Yes I know this but who are their descendants (i.e. ethnically)? The modern Greeks or the modern Italians? The modern Greeks off course, remember that the Turks eventually kicked most of them out of Mikra Asia in the early 20th century (my great grandparents included) and they came to Greece as refugees. So then the question still stands (as I understand it): "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?"

It's not just the Greeks - there are people who are not descended from the Turks still in Turkey, and there are the Roman descendants in Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Italy, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine... etc.
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2009, 06:12:07 PM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?
There was never a "Byzantine Empire", it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

True. So then perhaps the question should be "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?" While that would be great, IMO don't count on it.

They weren't Greeks - they were Romans.  Yes, they spoke Greek, and were called Greeks by the westerners, and even adopted the identity of Greeks later on, but they were true Romans.

Lots of people were enamored of the Romans and their empire. Even the Ottoman Sultan called himself "Caesar" of Rome (Kayser-i Rûm). He was not the only ruler to claim such a title, as there was the Holy Roman Empire in Western Europe, whose emperor, Frederick III, traced his titular lineage from Charlemagne who obtained the title of Roman Emperor when he was crowned by Pope Leo III in 800 - although never recognized as such by the Byzantine Empire." Wiki.

I would think that it is also important what the Rum Millet ethnic groups called themselves. It is clear that they were all part of the nation of Romans and they also self-identified themselves as Greeks, Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians, etc... In this sense, the Rum Millet was a broader concept than an ethnically descriptive term. The Rum of Constantinople had long ceased to look at themselves as the Latin Romans: Some of those who were privileged to be of the favored stratum of the Rum Millet, that is the Greeks, had even said to prefer to live under the Ottoman turban rather than the Latin mitre (this should be a quotation but I don't remember the source or exact words--just the sentiment). There are other differences between the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern or Byzantine Empire, aside from the ascendancy of the Greek language to become the common language of the empire and of Greeks to positions of power. Some historians have stated that there were also more eastern (Persian in particular) influences at play, particularly in governance and court practices.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2009, 06:58:04 PM »

Yes I know this but who are their descendants (i.e. ethnically)? The modern Greeks or the modern Italians? The modern Greeks off course, remember that the Turks eventually kicked most of them out of Mikra Asia in the early 20th century (my great grandparents included) and they came to Greece as refugees. So then the question still stands (as I understand it): "Will the Greeks ever get Constantinople back?"

It's not just the Greeks - there are people who are not descended from the Turks still in Turkey, and there are the Roman descendants in Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Italy, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine... etc.

Is this about Roman citizens in general or the inhabitants of Constantinople when it fell to the Turks? Well, ok then, so then question would be "Will the Rum ever get Constantinople back?"

It doesn't matter which Rum try to reclaim it, whether Greek, Russian, ect. ect., the Turks aint gonna give up that city to anyone, it's too important to them as it's their commercial hub, and you can bet that the UN won't give the any Rum the green light.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2009, 07:58:26 PM »

Quote
the Kings of Greece (descendents themselves of Eastern Roman Emperors).

SolEX01, the first king of Greece installed after independence from the Ottomans was a Bavarian prince, Otto I, who was later deposed; his successor, George I, was from the Danish royal house. George's successors, through to Constantine II, who was deposed in 1975, are from this line. Nothing to do with Eastern Roman Emperors.
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 08:05:41 PM »

Quote
the Kings of Greece (descendents themselves of Eastern Roman Emperors).

SolEX01, the first king of Greece installed after independence from the Ottomans was a Bavarian prince, Otto I, who was later deposed;

I dislike citing Wikipedia; Otto I is descended "of the Greek imperial dynasties of Comnenus and Lascaris."

his successor, George I, was from the Danish royal house. George's successors, through to Constantine II, who was deposed in 1975, are from this line. Nothing to do with Eastern Roman Emperors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_ancestry_of_Greek_Royal_Family

Edit - The second Wikipedia source doesn't cite sources although whoever posted the article must have done their homework to trace kinship through the generations.
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2009, 11:00:48 AM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2009, 11:18:12 AM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin

I don't think anybody wants to open that can of worms. Population exchange cuts both ways. I would also bet that this issue is tops on the Turks' mind.
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2009, 11:53:04 AM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin

I don't think anybody wants to open that can of worms. Population exchange cuts both ways. I would also bet that this issue is tops on the Turks' mind.

Well, considering that the population exchange happened at a ratio of 10 displaced Greeks to 1 displaced Turk, I suppose the one blade is a paring knife and the other a machete.
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2009, 12:56:50 PM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin

I don't think anybody wants to open that can of worms. Population exchange cuts both ways. I would also bet that this issue is tops on the Turks' mind.

Well, considering that the population exchange happened at a ratio of 10 displaced Greeks to 1 displaced Turk, I suppose the one blade is a paring knife and the other a machete.

Change in population now is more like a slow trickle - Greece to Turkey....

Greek nationals have built US style housing developments in Izmir (formerly Smryna) as their second or even third home.  The Euro still goes quite far in Turkey.   Wink
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin

I don't think anybody wants to open that can of worms. Population exchange cuts both ways. I would also bet that this issue is tops on the Turks' mind.

Well, considering that the population exchange happened at a ratio of 10 displaced Greeks to 1 displaced Turk, I suppose the one blade is a paring knife and the other a machete.

Change in population now is more like a slow trickle - Greece to Turkey....

Greek nationals have built US style housing developments in Izmir (formerly Smryna) as their second or even third home.  The Euro still goes quite far in Turkey.   Wink

I think that's the trend that would emerge with open borders and an EU Turkey - more Greeks going to Turkey than Turks coming to Greece, largely because a poor Greek is probably better off than a middle-class Turk when currency exchange & cost of living are factored in.
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2009, 02:12:06 PM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.

I betcha the Turks haven't thought THAT one through much yet!  Grin

I don't think anybody wants to open that can of worms. Population exchange cuts both ways. I would also bet that this issue is tops on the Turks' mind.

Well, considering that the population exchange happened at a ratio of 10 displaced Greeks to 1 displaced Turk, I suppose the one blade is a paring knife and the other a machete.

Change in population now is more like a slow trickle - Greece to Turkey....

Greek nationals have built US style housing developments in Izmir (formerly Smryna) as their second or even third home.  The Euro still goes quite far in Turkey.   Wink

I think that's the trend that would emerge with open borders and an EU Turkey - more Greeks going to Turkey than Turks coming to Greece, largely because a poor Greek is probably better off than a middle-class Turk when currency exchange & cost of living are factored in.

I just do not trust the Turks not to try to hurt the Greeks who move to Turkey.
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2009, 05:20:25 PM »

Yea, I couldn't see any Greeks taking a chance and migrating to Turkey for any reason regardless of whether or not the Turks have joined the EU.

Also, did King Otto of Greece stay a Catholic (I presume, since he was Bavarian) or did he convert to Orthodoxy

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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2009, 05:32:19 PM »

I just do not trust the Turks not to try to hurt the Greeks who move to Turkey.

With their human rights record?  I don't either.

Yea, I couldn't see any Greeks taking a chance and migrating to Turkey for any reason regardless of whether or not the Turks have joined the EU.

I don't know about that.  The economic possibilities of moving to a country with a population much larger than Greece's can't be overlooked, as well as the fact that it would still be reasonably easy to return to one's homeland rather routinely.  The Orthodox of Constantinople used to be the major economic players before the population exchange and then the pogroms of the 50's; it is conceivable that a similar situation could arise in other cities (like Izmir/Smyrna, which is extremely close to the Greek islands anyway) if Turkey became an EU member/Eurofies.

Also, did King Otto of Greece stay a Catholic (I presume, since he was Bavarian) or did he convert to Orthodoxy

I'm not sure, although I would find it hard to believe that he would remain RC in a country that was 99%+ Orthodox...
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2009, 06:01:49 PM »

I just do not trust the Turks not to try to hurt the Greeks who move to Turkey.

What Turk in his right mind will destroy these US like housing developments?   Huh

The late Greek singer Stelios Kazantzidis was mega popular in Israel and ... Turkey.  There is a lot of love between Greek and Turk - just not on high government levels.

As printed in the September 2009 issue of the Orthodox Observer, the Ambassador of Turkey will host a luncheon in honor of His All Holiness after a lecture at Georgetown University on November 3.

Quote
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 3
Lecture co-sponsored by the
Center for American Progress and
Georgetown University at Gaston Hall,
(37th and O Streets, NW, Washington).

Luncheon in honor of His All
Holiness hosted by Ambassador Nabi
Sensoy at the ambassador’s residence.
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2009, 06:12:45 PM »

I just do not trust the Turks not to try to hurt the Greeks who move to Turkey.

What Turk in his right mind will destroy these US like housing developments?   Huh

The late Greek singer Stelios Kazantzidis was mega popular in Israel and ... Turkey.  There is a lot of love between Greek and Turk - just not on high government levels.

As printed in the September 2009 issue of the Orthodox Observer, the Ambassador of Turkey will host a luncheon in honor of His All Holiness after a lecture at Georgetown University on November 3.

Quote
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 3
Lecture co-sponsored by the
Center for American Progress and
Georgetown University at Gaston Hall,
(37th and O Streets, NW, Washington).

Luncheon in honor of His All
Holiness hosted by Ambassador Nabi
Sensoy at the ambassador’s residence.


Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?

In case you are not, no Turk would destroy the buildings but many a Turk would love to confiscate them. Also, there may be some love there but I think it can turn into another pogrom, like the one in 1955, if Turks want to repeat that. And, they would be more than happy to sing Kazantzidis songs as they rampage. Finally, the Ambassador is merely hosting an eminent Turk.
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2009, 06:29:08 PM »

I just do not trust the Turks not to try to hurt the Greeks who move to Turkey.

With their human rights record?  I don't either.

Yea, I couldn't see any Greeks taking a chance and migrating to Turkey for any reason regardless of whether or not the Turks have joined the EU.

I don't know about that.  The economic possibilities of moving to a country with a population much larger than Greece's can't be overlooked, as well as the fact that it would still be reasonably easy to return to one's homeland rather routinely.  The Orthodox of Constantinople used to be the major economic players before the population exchange and then the pogroms of the 50's; it is conceivable that a similar situation could arise in other cities (like Izmir/Smyrna, which is extremely close to the Greek islands anyway) if Turkey became an EU member/Eurofies.

Also, did King Otto of Greece stay a Catholic (I presume, since he was Bavarian) or did he convert to Orthodoxy

I'm not sure, although I would find it hard to believe that he would remain RC in a country that was 99%+ Orthodox...

Actually, he stubbornly clung to the Vatican, and it became an issue.  He was forced to have his (unexistent) heir raised Orthodox by the uprising and constitution of 1843, and it was also an issue since the CoG had declared autocephaly. (btw, Otto, in exile, secretely financed the revolt in Crete against the Ottomans, but had it kept a secret, so as to not cause political problems for his successor George I).   Btw, a similar problem happened in Romania: there, because no heir survived either, it wasn't until 61 years later that Romania got an Orthodox heir and king.
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2009, 07:12:31 PM »

I think there as a similar problem with the King of Bulgaria's so being baptized back in 1933.  Apparently the king had to get special permission from the Pope Pius XI, just to get married to his queen.  However they had to promise to have their son baptized RC ( but they had him baptized Orthodox anyway).

It caused a real stir, from what I've heard).
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2009, 07:14:56 PM »

Actually, he stubbornly clung to the Vatican, and it became an issue.  He was forced to have his (unexistent) heir raised Orthodox by the uprising and constitution of 1843, and it was also an issue since the CoG had declared autocephaly. (btw, Otto, in exile, secretely financed the revolt in Crete against the Ottomans, but had it kept a secret, so as to not cause political problems for his successor George I).   Btw, a similar problem happened in Romania: there, because no heir survived either, it wasn't until 61 years later that Romania got an Orthodox heir and king.

Thank you for the info!
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2009, 08:48:23 PM »

I think there as a similar problem with the King of Bulgaria's so being baptized back in 1933.  Apparently the king had to get special permission from the Pope Pius XI, just to get married to his queen.  However they had to promise to have their son baptized RC ( but they had him baptized Orthodox anyway).

It caused a real stir, from what I've heard).

No, Tzar Ferdinand had his son Boris III baptized Orthodox in 1894, which infuriated his Hapsburg relatives.  T. Boris had an airforce officier get water from the Jordan for the Orthodox Baptism of Tzar (and later in our days, Prime Minister) Simeon II.  The royal family continues to be adhere to Orthodoxy, although living in exile in Spain and marrying Spaniards (only one, Princess Kalina has converted to the Vatican, but her son was baptized Orthodox, and her marriage had an Orthodox blessing, whatever that means).
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2009, 11:44:11 PM »

Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?

I wasn't being sarcastic.

In case you are not, no Turk would destroy the buildings but many a Turk would love to confiscate them.

If confiscation remained a serious risk, would any Greek build a house in Turkey?   Huh

Also, there may be some love there but I think it can turn into another pogrom, like the one in 1955, if Turks want to repeat that.

Why would the Turks repeat 1955?

And, they would be more than happy to sing Kazantzidis songs as they rampage.

That's sarcasm.   Grin

Finally, the Ambassador is merely hosting an eminent Turk.

Tell that to the Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

As an aside, the Ambassador of Turkey was asked to contribute a letter of greeting to the adbook for a specific event.  His office sent a very nice letter wishing for improved friendship between Greece and Turkey.  The anti-Turkish sentiment among the planners of the event resulted in the letter being excluded.   Sad
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2009, 01:32:25 AM »

God bless the internet.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,746612,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,745243,00.html

Monday, Mar. 06, 1933
BULGARIA: Broken Pledge

Charges that Tsar Boris and his Italian-born Tsaritsa broke a prenuptial, written pledge to Pope Pius XI when they permitted their first child, a girl, to be baptized Bulgarian Orthodox (TIME, Jan. 23), have been met by angry Bulgarians with the demand: "Produce the document!"

Last week in the Papal State the Holy See refused to produce the document entire, did produce that part of it which bears on Bulgarian royal baptisms. Authorized translation:

Inasmuch as the said dispensation according to Canon 1061 of the code of Canon law is subordinated to the two following conditions which are based on the same divine law, namely: that every danger of perversion of the Catholic spouse on the part of the non-Catholic spouse may be removed and that all the offspring may be baptized and educated in the Catholic faith, she promises to conform to this fully with the consent also of her future spouse, who confirms this by signing hereunder.

(Signed) Giovanna di Savoia (Signed) Boris di Bulgaria.
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »

Well, if Turkey joins the EU, then there will be nothing to prevent all the Greeks who lost their homes there from moving back.
Except for over-population maybe. Tongue

By the way, I never thought about Otto's religion. If it hadn't been for the Russians though, maybe Greece wouldn't have been that Orthodox now.
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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2009, 04:20:11 PM »

Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?
I wasn't being sarcastic.
I hope that you are right. It is a moral and spiritual failing of mine that I cannot bring myself to trust the Turks (or Greeks for that matter) as a matter of principle. However, when I interact with either Greeks or Turks individually, this feeling goes way back into the background. Lord help me not generalize!
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2009, 04:42:10 PM »

Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?
I wasn't being sarcastic.
I hope that you are right. It is a moral and spiritual failing of mine that I cannot bring myself to trust the Turks (or Greeks for that matter) as a matter of principle.

Try not to be too hard on yourself.   Smiley
I never had a problem with any Turk or Muslim while I've had more problems with Greeks.  Each person has had different experiences.

However, when I interact with either Greeks or Turks individually, this feeling goes way back into the background. Lord help me not generalize!

Lord have Mercy.
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2009, 09:47:51 PM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.


Let us not put the cart before the horse George. Cheesy It was Constantine he great who transformed the ancient Greek colony of Byzantium into a new imperial residence, Constantinople. Wink
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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2013, 05:12:30 AM »

Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Are you being sarcastic about not being sarcastic?  Huh
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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2013, 05:29:07 AM »

When Holy Russia decides to rise up and crush the followers of Satan in Turkey, then shall the throne of Constantine be raised up again.

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople.
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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2013, 07:35:26 AM »


Instead, let us consider this... Is it better that it remain under the Turks for now? Or would it be best if a western nation were given control? Would non-Orthodox in those countries be persecuted just as bad or worse under an "Orthodox" country or would peace be better preserved with another country controlling it.


On my last visit to Mt Athos, I heard a story from a Greek Archimandrite and the point of it was that persecution of Christians is alive and well. The story went something like this.

While visiting the north part of the country, the tour group went to a tavern to eat. The proprietor upon realising who/what they were, invited the priest to his 'cellar' to look at this wines. Deep below in a hidden room was a small chapel. Crying the man begged them to hold a liturgy! When asked about it all, the man said that they built it like this so that when they light incense it will not give them away....

So.. YES we should take the whole of Turkey back if possible but the thought of a war... Sad
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2013, 07:42:33 AM »


Instead, let us consider this... Is it better that it remain under the Turks for now? Or would it be best if a western nation were given control? Would non-Orthodox in those countries be persecuted just as bad or worse under an "Orthodox" country or would peace be better preserved with another country controlling it.


On my last visit to Mt Athos, I heard a story from a Greek Archimandrite and the point of it was that persecution of Christians is alive and well. The story went something like this.

While visiting the north part of the country, the tour group went to a tavern to eat. The proprietor upon realising who/what they were, invited the priest to his 'cellar' to look at this wines. Deep below in a hidden room was a small chapel. Crying the man begged them to hold a liturgy! When asked about it all, the man said that they built it like this so that when they light incense it will not give them away....

So.. YES we should take the whole of Turkey back if possible but the thought of a war... Sad


The Great Idea is dead and buried. As it should be.
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2013, 08:11:10 AM »

The Great Idea is dead and buried. As it should be.

Was it so evil?
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2013, 08:26:11 AM »

The Great Idea is dead and buried. As it should be.

Was it so evil?

Read up on the history.  Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2013, 08:36:19 AM »

The Great Idea is dead and buried. As it should be.

Was it so evil?

Read up on the history.  Smiley

The problematic part is that it failed. But the megali idea can hardly be called evil.
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2013, 11:09:26 PM »

The Great Idea is dead and buried. As it should be.

Was it so evil?

Read up on the history.  Smiley

The problematic part is that it failed. But the megali idea can hardly be called evil.

It failed because Russia was indisposed at the time.
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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2013, 11:19:19 PM »

Now Sol, are you being sarcastic?

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Are you being sarcastic about not being sarcastic?  Huh

A lot has happened in Turkey since my last reply in this thread.  Turkey has some internal issues at the moment.  They haven't affected the Greeks, at least not according to the Huffington Post.

So, I'm not sarcastic about not being sarcastic which means I'm still not sarcastic.
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« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2013, 11:20:51 PM »

Only if Russia finally re-heats its bitter rivalry with Turkey and rebuilds its empire to destroy them.
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2013, 11:25:07 PM »

Only if Russia finally re-heats its bitter rivalry with Turkey and rebuilds its empire to destroy them.

Russia kind of has historical ADD.
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2013, 12:57:54 AM »

Yea, I couldn't see any Greeks taking a chance and migrating to Turkey for any reason regardless of whether or not the Turks have joined the EU.

Also, did King Otto of Greece stay a Catholic (I presume, since he was Bavarian) or did he convert to Orthodoxy



High Highness Otto remained Catholic and his wife remained Protestant, but the agreement was that their children were to be baptised in the Orthodox Church. His retention of his religion and encouragement of Western missionaries in the new Kingdom was a bone of contention for decades.
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2013, 01:00:36 AM »

So did theyoungfogey model his profile picture after Robb's? Wink
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2013, 03:38:06 AM »

Certainly will never happen by human hands that is for sure...



Still, fantasize about it... maybe one day...

then just remember the size of the greek military compared to turkey, warming relations between the two countries (and between turkey and russia). also as another pointed out, the birth rate. orthodox as a people are I would say in a decline because of low birth rates compared to muslims.



one final thing, i believe the period of annexation of land is over for the western world. I don't think world powers would allow it to happen, and even if it did it would be impossible to keep with such a huge amount of the population being turk muslims. in order to take foreign land you would have to be cruel to keep it.  (yes, istanbul is now foreign land for the greeks.) the cruelty required would be impossible to do in this day in age. this is my opinion.


those glory days are over and only harder times are ahead
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2013, 09:13:31 AM »

When Holy Russia decides to rise up and crush the followers of Satan in Turkey, then shall the throne of Constantine be raised up again.

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople.

Watch the movie 'Zulu' sometime.
That is what they mean by true Britons.
There ain't a lot fo them left.
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2013, 10:21:15 AM »

I doubt if Greece would want to spend the money to try to keep such a place.  War is expensive.
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Dionysii
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Faith: Old Rite Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Metr. Kornilii of Russia
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« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2013, 05:29:10 PM »

Will Greece ever recapture the New Rome from the Turks?
Greece never owned Constantinople, so it would not be a case of "recapturing" it but rather annexing it. What is now called Greece was part of the Roman Empire with Constantinople as its capital, so New Rome owned Greece, not the other way around.
A little known fact is that the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans coincided with a rise in Greek Nationalism led by the neoPlatonic philosopher Gemistus Pletho. The new revival in "Greek nationalism" is no different, and it would be completely revisionist for it to claim that "Greece" ever "owned" Constantinople.

Would the emperor then be put back on hsi throne and Byzantium restored as a sacred kingdom in this world?
There was never a "Byzantine Empire", it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

Well put.  I would even say that whereas the Ottomans preserved Roman heritage, hellenism from the seventeenth century onwards through 1821 and today has always been directed by a pagan clique that has undermined the identity and character of Eastern Roman citizens and transformed them into Greek apostates.  The same process has occurred in every country of the Roman Empire occupied by the Franks and its allies.  
See for example, 'From Peasants to Frenchmen: The Modernization of Rural France 1870-1914' by Eugen Weber.

The Ottoman Empire and its Sultans were the Roman Empire in Islamic form.  The last truly Christian Emperor of Rome was Manuel II who opposed union with the Franks.  However, the final two Paleologue Emperors departed from his religious policy and became Frankish puppets from the 1430's Florentine Council to 1453 when Sultan Mehmed II took Constantinople and restored Roman civilization. The Ottoman Empire made Eastern Roman civilization its own and preserved it.  

We expose our own ignorance and insensitivity when we fail to distinguish the Ottoman Empire from secular Turkey established by Kemal Pasha.  Turkish governments since the 1920's have likewise sought to forcefully divest citizens of the vestiges of Roman and Islamic traditions.  The origin of this westernization was Sultan Selim III's reorientation of Ottoman government adopting western policies from 1789 onwards leading to the Tanzimat and the Young Turks.  The excessive taxations thus implemented in the early nineteenth century were a departure from Ottoman tradition and resulted in unfortunately successful revolutions in Greece and Egypt.  

The Ottoman Empire lasted centuries longer than other eastern kingdoms like those of Attila and Ghengis Khan because they adopted the principles of Roman civilization.  As long as the Ottoman Empire was faithful to its founding principles, it maintained its status long after its height in the 1500's.  The Ottoman's abandonment of founding principles in favor of European ways was the cause of its demise.  

Modern Greece and Serbia are creations and puppets of western colonialism and nationalism (which itself derives from "enlightenment" ideology) which have systematically destroyed the vestiges of Roman and civilization in the Balkans.  
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 05:47:12 PM by Dionysii » Logged
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