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Author Topic: Jurisidiction  (Read 12152 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2003, 05:24:44 AM »

and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

I'm pretty sure the OCA gets "outdone" by many other jurisdictions in regards to ecumenism.

Ditto.  That sounds pretty laughable to me.
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2003, 03:03:35 PM »


Me Methodist Minister? Not me.



Sorry about any confusion--I was responding to JamesB.
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« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2003, 10:16:32 PM »


Marietta, thats not far from me, im Riverside area.

Me Methodist Minister? Not me.


My Reasons for ruleing out the OCA? The False autocephaly, for starters, and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

In Christ



Whoa!

What "false autocephaly"?

Sounds like you have been listening to the wrong people!

I am not OCA, but I have tremendous respect for it, as I do for all real Orthodox jurisdictions.
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2003, 08:30:52 AM »



Whoa!

What "false autocephaly"?

Sounds like you have been listening to the wrong people!

I am not OCA, but I have tremendous respect for it, as I do for all real Orthodox jurisdictions.

I agree.  I am a member of an  OCA parish and have not seen any of the great deficiencies or erros that some have claimed the entire OCA has.  Sometimes when I read the criticisms of the OCA, I am left wondering what they are talking about, because I have either not seen it or it was totally blown out of proportion or context.

As for false autocephaly, the Patraich of Moscow granted the autocephaly status.  So if one rejects the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate and calls it "Stalin's Church", they could make that claim.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2003, 02:09:24 PM »

If certain people have a problem with the OCA autocephaly, I think this excerpt from a letter written by Fr. Seraphim Rose to an OCA priest at the time of autocephaly might explain why- at least partially.


You wil find in our midst great sympathy and pity for all but the leading hierarchs of Moscow-- and even for some of them you will find fellow-feeling owing to the inhuman circumstances under which they have been forced to betray Orthodoxy....but this fellow-feeling cannont allow us who are free to....place ourselves in the same trap she [the Moscow Patriarchate] was         forced into! And this the Metropolia has done....With every fiber of our being and every feeling of our soul we are repulsed by this free act of betrayal....Do you not grasp the immensity of your spiritual bondage?


Elsewhere he wrote:

Is "stepping onto the world Orthodox scene" really so important to the Metropolia that it must do it at the expense of the suffering Russian Orthodox Faithful? To give one small example: Metropolitan Nikodim is the Metropolia's great "benefactor", and no one can doubt that his success with the Metropolia has strengthened his position with the Moscow Patriarchate. On the other hand, the layman Boris Talantov in the USSR has openly called Metropolitan Nikodim a betrayer of the Church, a liar, and an agent of world anti-Christianity, for which statements (among others) he was imprisoned by the Soviets; Metropolitan Nikodim tells the West that he was in prison for "anti-governmental activities." On January 4th of this year Boris Talantov died in prison, undoubtedly the victim of Metropolitan Nikodim(among others). Can the Metropolia feel itself to be on the side of this confessor? I don't see how it can.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 03:12:32 PM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2003, 02:12:24 PM »


The way that autocephaly status was explained to me is that
the Ecumenical Patriarch with the consent of all the Orthodox Churches, can only grant Autcephaly Status. Ive been told by a
Clergy member in ROCOR that the OCA Autocephaly is false,
and they dont (most dont) deny the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate.

I dont believe the Russian Orthodox Church is the "Church of Stalin"
I just believe that the Mosocow Patriachate has the Authority to grant such a status.

In Christ
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2003, 02:23:20 PM »

The Russian Church has every right to grant autocephaly. The question is for me- how does accepting autocephaly from an enslaved, Soviet run Church reflect on the spiritual direction of the ones accepting that autocephaly? At that time both the people in the official MP churches were persecuted, along with those in the catacomb church. Is it not a betrayal to accept this Church as your spiritual authority before the eyes of the whole world, thereby basically declaring them to be a legitimate institution, worthy of your "business". Does this message sent to the world not undermine the cause of those in Russia, being persecuted for the rejection of the very same body(by being part of the catacomb church) that the Metropolia did business with, all for the sake of their "American church" and finally becoming legitimate again after having broken away from ROCOR?

Of course, today the situation in Russia is different but it must be admitted that in 1970 the persecutions were far from over and the Church hierarchy in Russia was very much a Soviet tool.... It should be mentioned also that the Metropolia gave up its parishes in Japan to Moscow in the deal.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2003, 03:01:24 PM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2003, 02:56:38 PM »

30 years ago one couldn't trust the bishops of the Church of Russia but they were still bishops, etc.

I don't see how granting their American metropolia independence would have advanced the cause of international Communism.

So there's no reason to question it.
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2003, 03:00:20 PM »

I accept  the OCA's autocephaly. I just think it's quite revealing.
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2003, 03:04:15 PM »

Question:

Other than the Church of Constantinople, which churches do not accept the OCA as autocephalous?

Demetri
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2003, 02:27:02 PM »


Its exactly that reason. My reasoning for not accepting the
Autocephaly Status of the OCA, is because the 1st among equals the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constaninople doesnt.

In Christ
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2003, 02:55:30 PM »

But I thought you said you were leaning towards ROCOR, which is not in communion with that very same Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2003, 03:25:21 PM »

Yeah, AFAIK ROCOR is only in communion with the Serbs and Jerusalem, but by extension (through those two), everyone else.

Byz Chr,

The OCA is in communion with everyone - the EP just doesn't recognize their Autocephaly.  Look at their website (www.oca.org) as well.  There are recent photos (toward the beginning of the year?) about the nice meeting Met. Herman had with the EP.
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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2003, 04:45:55 PM »


Its exactly that reason. My reasoning for not accepting the
Autocephaly Status of the OCA, is because the 1st among equals the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constaninople doesnt.

In Christ

Dear Byzantine Christian,

If the opinion or position of the EP is so important to you, why are you joining ROCOR and not a Church in communion with the EP?

What do you think his position on ROCOR is?

TonyS
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2003, 05:30:14 PM »

I think it was quite normal for the OCA to want autocephaly -- knowing that the MP was indeed under communist influence, and her daughter church in the Americas was indeed mature --- what's wrong with letting the daughter go to live independently?

I totally don't follow any reasoning that OCA autocephaly somehow betrays those suffering under the communist yoke.  Indeed, for his entire life after autocephaly, Fr. Alexander Schmemann - a much maligned leader of the OCA during that time period (maligned during his life and after death) - broadcasted weekly Christian radio broadcasts, in Russian, to his suffering countrymen in Russia, trying to give them hope.  Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, after escaping the USSR, told Father Alexander how much they meant to him.  

Father Seraphim Rose is a great spiritual leader, but this is one area I diagree with him on.

And concerning autocephaly -- the MP's autocephaly wasn't recognized for 100+ years by the Orthodox world after it was proclaimed.  The 30+ years we have here is nothing.
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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2003, 11:06:22 PM »

No im not really considering ROCOR, since they are going to become in communion with the MP there is not point going to ROCOR.
I find that Since he is the 1st Among equals, his opinion are important.

I talk to a ROCOR Priest who as given me the + to go to the Antiochian and Greek Parish, till I am recieved into Orthodoxy.

In Christ
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« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2003, 11:21:46 PM »

Why is there no point in going to ROCOR if they enter into communion with the MP?
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2003, 12:39:33 AM »

I talk to a ROCOR Priest who as given me the + to go to the Antiochian and Greek Parish, till I am recieved into Orthodoxy.

In Christ

Byzantine Christian,

In which jurisdiction will you be recieved and where will you go then?

Tony
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2003, 10:33:36 AM »

Yeah, AFAIK ROCOR is only in communion with the Serbs and Jerusalem, but by extension (through those two), everyone else.

Byz Chr,

The OCA is in communion with everyone - the EP just doesn't recognize their Autocephaly.  Look at their website (www.oca.org) as well.  There are recent photos (toward the beginning of the year?) about the nice meeting Met. Herman had with the EP.

Pictures from the visit can be found here:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/index.html

Here is a nice photo:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/images/DSC_0003.jpg

and another:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/images/DSC_0018.jpg

From the Enthronment of Metropolitan HERMAN,

http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/episcopacy/mhenthronement/mhenthronement0908.htm

Scroll down and you will find:  Representing His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch and His Eminence Demetrios, Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
His Grace SAVAS, Bishop of Troas and Chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America greets Metropolitan Herman

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2002/090802mhenthronement/su/images2/P1010015.jpg

Note the other ancient and modern Patriarchates were represented.

Finally, let's not forget that the then-Metropolia went to the EP in the '60s and was told to go to Moscow, which it did and in a particular moment received a favorable reply from Moscow.  

See:  http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Church-Introduction/North-America-1794-1994/Challenges-to-the-Ethnic-Churches.html#canonical

A quote:  "You are Russians," the aged Patriarch Athenagoras said, "Go back to your Mother Church. No one can solve your problem except the Russian Church."

That was the First-Among-Equals, Ecumenical Patriarch ATHENAGORAS.

Think about it.

TonyS
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2003, 12:45:03 PM »

I dont know which Jurisdiction, yet. I am not at that point im my conversion to decided that as of yet. I was directed not to worry about it right now, but I will be attending an Antiochian parish till I finaly decided.

In Christ
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« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2003, 02:39:21 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Our some 16 years in the Orthodox Christian Church has led us through the Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, and now the Antiochian Orthodox Church.  My wife and I see ourselves as Americans who are members of the Holy Orthodox Church, and our chosen jurisdiction is primarily that which is available for us to attend in the area that we live at the time.  I have served as a Subdeacon in both Rocor and now in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Each of our changes to jurisdiction have been based upon availability of the church locally and not the practices of the jurisdictions in general.

Your brother in Christ,
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« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2003, 05:20:11 PM »

I must admit to finding it a little confusing how US convert folk seem to be expected to join an ethnicity rather than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I'm not saying folk should just attend the nearest church but I think I'd be looking to be a constructive member of a local congregation of A B or C jurisdiction rather than travel miles just to get to a church of jurisdiction D.

I know that if I moved to NZ anywhere near my ROCOR priest friend Fr Ambrose I'd be worshipping with him rather than travelling halfway up country to join a Coptic congregation or setting up a new congregation in competition with him.

I am increasingly convinced that lay folk and minor clergy have as important a role in sorting out the problems in the Churches as do the priests and bishops. What we do and say gives authority to our bishops to act - I don't mean in a political sense but that the bishops need a Church which is seeking reconciliation, regularisation, spiritual growth, mission, so that they can lead the Church in these things.

PT
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« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2003, 07:24:03 PM »

Unfortunately, some people have to travel to even find a parish.  In many towns and smaller cities, there aren't any Orthodox churches.  Before my mission (and we don't have a resident priest--we have typica services most weeks) started where I live, you had to travel 70 miles to the nearest parish.  In winter (I live in Montana), you may not be able to make the trip often in wintertime when roads are bad and you have to cross a couple of mountain passes to get there.  When I first started looking into Orthodoxy, the mission wasn't here, so I'm thankful to have what I have.  However, if there is more than one jurisdiction in town, I really don't see a problem with attending them all and choosing to attend the one where you feel you fit in and have the most opportunity to grow.  Some parishes are not welcoming to people that are not of their ethnic heritage and the services aren't done in a language they can understand.  I would do whatever I had to do to be Orthodox, but if I had a choice of attending a parish where I am welcomed as family and can serve and grow there, then I will choose that parish.  

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« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2003, 12:58:26 PM »

Im surrounded by Parishes, Russian, Greek, Antiochian, Monophysite, OCA, plus all the eastern catholic churches.

Right now I will be attending the Antiochian Parish. Till I get shiped to USMC bootcamp

In Christ
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« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2004, 06:40:25 PM »

My early introduction to Orthodox was via what I now know to be traditionalist Orthodox sources, including the works of Fr. Seraphim Rose. I spent two years studying Orthodoxy and church history before even looking for a near-by parish, but when I did, I only found a GOA parish. This is where I was so warmly welcomed into the Orthodox world and was baptized earlier this year.

Over the course of the past few weeks, however, those traditional voices that formed my introduction to the Church returned loudly, and I have found a ROCOR parish that I could attend. The Greek parish I now attend is about forty-five minutes away, and the Russian parish is another approximate twenty minutes away. While I have not yet decided to depart the GOA for the Russian Church Abroad, this is weighing heavily on my mind.
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« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2004, 08:36:23 PM »

I started with "what was available" (when I was single), but we continue by making the best choices that our family can make, based on a balance between what "is available" and where we can live our convictions.  

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