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Author Topic: Jurisidiction  (Read 11958 times) Average Rating: 0
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Byzantine Christian
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« on: December 02, 2003, 02:37:27 PM »

This question is for all Converts to Holy Orthodoxy.

How did you guys choose a Jurisidiction?

In Christ

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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2003, 05:45:33 PM »

It was easy enough for me.  The priest where I converted was the father of one of my best friends(now my roomate in fact) from high school.  As I was growing ever more dissatisfied with my brief sojourn in Protestantism, I ran into the priest at a Protestant Bookstore that let him carry Orthodox books on consignment.  We had a brief conversation, and the next day I spent five hours at his house talking theology with him and left with a few cassette tapes and a copy of Of Water and the Spirit by Fr. Alexander Schmemann.  I am as happy today with the OCA as I was then when all I knew was GOC, AOC, and OCA.  There are problems, certainly, but I believe we are doing a great deal of good out there.  I look forward to the day when more jurisdictions work together to the point of conglomeration.
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2003, 10:21:48 PM »

The question of jurisdiction was never a question, at least to me anyway.  I was searching for a more full expression of the Catholic Faith and upon reading and investigation my journey led first to an OCA parish in Philadelphia, Pa.  As a matter of fact it was an Albanian Orthodox church that I first had contact with.  I was sold on my first few hours of discussion with the priest that was assigned their.  I never looked back.  I am a former RC of 12 years in the Phila. parochial school system which has prepared me for the Orthodox life.

JoeS Cool
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2003, 10:35:12 PM »

I married a Greek woman. End of story.  Grin
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2003, 10:58:05 PM »

When it finally was apparent to me that I was ready for the Holy Orthodox Church, the closest church to me was in the GOA.

The people were very friendly, and hence I am in the GOA.
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2003, 11:04:08 PM »

Because the mission where I live is OCA.  Since there was no Orthodox presence here when I first knew I wanted to attend an Orthodox Church, I was very grateful when this started.  I live in Montana, and the closest Orthodox church was 70 miles away.  In winter, it would often be impossible to make it.  We don't have a resident priest yet.  We have a priest that comes up once a month (if the roads allow him to) for vespers and liturgy.  The other weeks we have typica (or reader's) services.  I'm just grateful to have what I have.
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2003, 07:22:44 AM »

Like Tom, I married a Greek woman. Unlike Tom, I now live in Greece Grin.

There is an old calendar church not far from where we live but they are unfortunately schismatic (trust me on this OK)

John.
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2003, 09:03:53 AM »

Like Tom, I married a Greek woman. Unlike Tom, I now live in Greece Grin.

Gimme time John. Niki inherited her grandmothers house in Mytalini.  Cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2003, 09:10:32 AM »

Quote
Gimme time John. Niki inherited her grandmothers house in Mytalini.  

Shall we start planning the next Winterfest Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2003, 09:33:23 AM »

Hey Oblio, the monk we met at the airport was from Mytilini.  This can't be coincidence Shocked Grin






Well okay, it might be Cheesy

Anyway, here is the plan. You all start saving up your money and I'll get in touch with Fr Theofanis to put us all up at the monastery on Mytilini Grin

John
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2003, 02:59:43 PM »

I recently informed my wife of my plans to step down from being a deacon in our baptist church and to start visiting some Orthodox churches.  The two closest ones to where we live are each about one hour away--an OCA mission church and a church under the EP (at least that's what the newspaper ad said). I've visited another OCA church this past summer closer to where my in-laws live and liked it.  This closer OCA mission has weekly reader's services and the Eucharist once month when the priest comes.  Apparently, this used to be an Evangelical Orthodox parish.  I'm less familiar with the EP church, but it appears they have liturgy weekly and more services and classes and such.

Any thoughts on going OCA as opposed to an EP church or vice versa?
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2003, 03:08:33 PM »

What is EP?

We chose an Antiochian parish because it's the only orthodox parish within 60 miles! I live in a college town with a diverse group of people, my particular parish has everything from American born converts to Romanian, Russian, Syrian, Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian. (I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody) It makes parish life interesting to say the least. Cheesy Especially since our priest is an American Convert.

On occaision, when weather and car permit, we attend a Serbian parish.
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2003, 03:11:17 PM »

DT,

Is this the EP Parish?

Parish St Elizabeth Mission
Deanery Washington, D.C.
Priest Rev. Fr. Paul Stoll
Deacon N/A
Readers-Subdeacons N/A
Address 206 Deerchase Drive
City Woodstock
State Georgia
Zip 30188
Phone (770) 924-7181
Fax N/A
E-mail f.stoll@attbi.com
Website N/A  

If so, Linus7 would be the best contact, as he is an ACROD member.  I'd say go to whichever one you're more comfortable in.
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2003, 03:19:12 PM »

DT,

Is this the EP Parish?

Parish St Elizabeth Mission
Deanery Washington, D.C.
Priest Rev. Fr. Paul Stoll
Deacon N/A
Readers-Subdeacons N/A
Address 206 Deerchase Drive
City Woodstock
State Georgia
Zip 30188
Phone (770) 924-7181
Fax N/A
E-mail f.stoll@attbi.com
Website N/A  

Yes, it is.

Quote
If so, Linus7 would be the best contact, as he is an ACROD member.  I'd say go to whichever one you're more comfortable in.  
Thanks, David.  BTW--what is "ACROD"?

PhosZoe,
EP = Ecumenical Patriarchate
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2003, 03:22:51 PM »

ACROD = American Carpatho-Russion Orthdox Diocese (or something like that)

Mods, where's that acronymn thread?
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2003, 03:29:46 PM »

American Carpatho-Russian Diocese

see acrodnymfinder.com
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2003, 07:36:20 PM »

I'm in OCA.  For me, it was a combination of proximity and language.  There's a Greek church nearby, but they still do a good bit in Greek and they do the whole organ/pew thing, which I'm not into.  There's a Moscow Patriarchate parish in the general area, but it would be about a 45 minute drive and they do a decent bit in Russian I think.  OCA church nearby is all in English and the closest of the three.  Recently, an Antiochian parish has opened up but I believe it is Arabic language.  I enjoy Arabic music the most, but that's no reason to go switching parishes Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2003, 08:40:48 PM »

Was raised Ukrainian Catholic (Uniate).  Was only natural that I should join Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (Ecumenical Patriarch).  Dragged wife and kids along.

http://www.uocc.ca/

http://www.stmaryprotectress.mb.ca/

ps. sorry about the above linx.  seems my church doesn't like to update stuff very often.

pss:  JoeS and Katherine2001, your avatar is an icon from my church!  Honestly!
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2003, 09:09:16 PM »

Was born into the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N & S America, as it was called then.  Only 1/2 Greek, and as I grew up, realized that culturally I'm much more American and cannot really relate to all that Greek festival stuff or liturgy in Greek (I'm sure if my mum were Greek I'd be more into it, but she isn't).  Also, I'm not a big fan of Eastern Orthodox organ music.  Through the years, I have worshipped in OCA, ACROD, ROCOR, and Antiochian parishes.  Now I call an OCA parish home.  

Let's pray for Orthodox unity -- what a disappointment "SCOBA" has been in that respect!

I love the words of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, the Wonderworker -- "There's no such thing as separate 'jurisdictions' - we're all in Christ's juristiction!!"
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2003, 12:37:14 AM »

Well I left the Ruthenian BCC for the OCA.  It would seem that I should have gone to the ACROD as that is the counterpart of the Ruthenian BCs.  Most people on this thread don't seem to be leaving the "Unia" for Orthodoxy though.

I think you have to find a parish that suits you in distance and language and in the other ways only you can determine.  You then integrate youself into that parish.  Later you will be able to percieve if other parishes of that same jurisdiction share the same qualities that attracted you to that parish.  If they do, great you've found a home jurisdictionally, if not that is fine, you still have a parish.  

Upon entering Holy Orthodoxy unless you have academic interest in some jurisdiction or a particular ethnic group because of ancestry or marriage, I really think you have to go where you feel welcomed and can worship and understand.
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2003, 02:23:35 PM »

Nicodemus do you live in california, I know of a GOA parish that does the whole organ and pews thing. Its called St. Prophet Elais Greek Orthodox Church.  I have many orthodox parishes around me, I have a Coptic, Greek, Antiochian, Russian not to mention all the Eastern Rite Catholic Parishes.
Im in a good location but i dont know which Orthodox one is right.

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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2003, 02:29:28 PM »

Nicodemus do you live in california, I know of a GOA parish that does the whole organ and pews thing. Its called St. Prophet Elais Greek Orthodox Church.  I have many orthodox parishes around me, I have a Coptic, Greek, Antiochian, Russian not to mention all the Eastern Rite Catholic Parishes.
Im in a good location but i dont know which Orthodox one is right.



If you're talking about the one in Santa Cruz, I've met the priest (Fr. Meletios Weber or Fr. Mel) but not visited the parish.  He's a London born Scot who went to Oxford and studied with Bishop Kallistos (he says AKA Super K).  Fr. Mel is great.  He spoke at a retreat I was at recently.  He wrote the book 12 Steps to Transformation (supposedly modeled somewhat after AA).
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2003, 09:06:04 PM »

I can answer the question about St. Elizabeth's!  Its my parish.

To begin, I'll say that we live two hours north of Atlanta, but the closest parish of any kind is in Atlanta.  We visited a ROCOR parish near Alpharetta, and really liked the priest and the people.  In the end, though, because we were converting as a family (H&W and 2 teenage daughters), we wanted to see if there was a fully english speaking parish available where we were all comfortable.  We lucked on what is probably the same newspaper ad you saw, and contacted the priest.

That was two years ago.  I resigned my Methodist pulpit after Pascha in 2002, we were all baptized in October of 2002, and have been at St. Elizabeth's the whole time.  Father Paul is a fine priest, and the people in the parish have been incredibly welcoming.  We are extremely happy there.  My oldest daughter (when shes not away at school) and I sing in the choir, and I, along with two others, will be tonsured as a reader the weekend after this in Johnstown.

Some people have issues with ACROD, but I find that there is no jurisdiction out there that doesn't have someone dissing it.  Suffice it to say that we are Orthodox.

EP, by the way, stands for Ecumenical Patriarch.  ACROD is a diocese under him.  Some people have issues with him, too, but see the above re: jurisdictions.

Come visit us anyway.  I'll be the red headed guy standing among what one of our altos calls "the droning basses".  As a bonus, although we're a little shy of sopranos at the moment, the choir is excellent.

If I do say so myself.

If you want more info or directions to our temporary quarters, feel free to contact me off list.

In Christ,

James
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2003, 09:16:37 PM »

I can answer the question about St. Elizabeth's!  Its my parish.

Can you tell me where St. Elizabeth's is please.  And, does it have a Carptho-Russian foundation (I mean the fouding community)?

Thanks!

Tony
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2003, 10:37:43 PM »

Tony asked:  "Can you tell me where St. Elizabeth's is please.  And, does it have a Carptho-Russian foundation (I mean the fouding community)?"

I think the founding members were people who had grown up in the Carpatho-Russian parishes in Pennsylvania and elsewhere, and then moved to Atlanta.  If I had to break down the parish, more or less, I'd say about 25% are cradle Carpatho-Russians, fifty percent are converts of various backgrounds, and 25 percent are people who are otherwise Orthodox, but not C-R -- some Russians, Greeks and Antiochians.  Our choir director grew up OCA, but I thank God every Sunday that she wandered into St. Elizabeth's!  Now if she could just get back now that her baby is born...

We meet in a chapel located on the grounds of a humongous Roman Catholic Church, St. Joseph's in Marietta.  There are some obvious disconnects:  a couple of statues of Christ and the Theotokos for starters, and we have to put our icons up on easels and stands.  Someday we'll get a real church.  But for now, its home.

These are directions I wrote for someone coming down I-575, north of town:

I-575 will merge into I-75 South.  Get onto I-75, but then take the first exit to the right.  This will be Highway 5.  When  you first get on it, it will be a divided highway.  It will very shortly come to a stop light.  Pass through that stop light, and then turn right at the next stop light onto Tower Road.

Go one block on Tower Road to a stop sign.  Turn left at the stop sign onto Campbell Hill Street.  You will then be passing behind Kennestone Hospital.  Go to the stop sign where Campbell Hill intersects Lacy Street.  Continue on Campbell Himm Street to the next right, and turn there.  Then immediately take the next right onto a residential street that goes up a fairly steep hill.  Park along the side of this street.  At the top of the hill you will find the Chapel of Peace.  Its a two story brick building, and you'll find us on the bottom.  Look for the clouds of smoke.  

For services that are not on Sundays, like Vespers and weekday feast days, we meet in a chapel in the basement of the rectory.  That address is the one shown in the ACROD directory.

I hope that helps.  Let me know if it is unclear.

James
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2003, 11:20:01 PM »

Tony asked:  "Can you tell me where St. Elizabeth's is please.  And, does it have a Carptho-Russian foundation (I mean the fouding community)?"

I think the founding members were people who had grown up in the Carpatho-Russian parishes in Pennsylvania and elsewhere, and then moved to Atlanta.  If I had to break down the parish, more or less, I'd say about 25% are cradle Carpatho-Russians, fifty percent are converts of various backgrounds, and 25 percent are people who are otherwise Orthodox, but not C-R -- some Russians, Greeks and Antiochians.  Our choir director grew up OCA, but I thank God every Sunday that she wandered into St. Elizabeth's!  Now if she could just get back now that her baby is born...


JamesB,

Thanks!  I am originally from Atlanta but when I lived there I was not Orthodox.  I hope I can visit next time I am down to see my mom.

TonyS
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2003, 02:11:55 AM »

There are, in Grand Rapids, a Greek church and two Antiochian, and one Russian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate).  When I first became interesting in Orthodoxy, and wanted to attend services (but also continue going with my wife to our Protestant church), the new priest at the Russian church was holding Vespers several days a week, and doing Vespers and Matins on Saturday night.  The other churches in twn were pretty much restricted to Sunday morning liturgy, with some Saturday vespers.  This gave me an opportunity to attend some services at times other than Sunday morning.  It's a small church.  I like the Russian version of the 8 tones.  I got to know several of the members, and so, when I finally got to the point of wishing to enter through chrismation, that was the church I was most familiar with and most comfortable with.  Partly because there are many converts there, and the "ethnic" Russians are not very numerous.

Unfortunately, my wife continues to attend the Protestant church I left, but we have a good marriage, and have made the respectful adjustment to the situation.
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2003, 02:49:57 AM »

Well, I really chose a parish rather than a jurisdiction...

However, I did take somewhat of the longer view, and kept the jurisdiction in mind.

I chose the most traditional parish in Indianapolis.  

It didn't hurt that I heard such good things about Metropolitan JOSEPH. (Bulgarian Patriarchate).
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2003, 02:09:43 PM »

Elisha, yes Fr. Mel is the Pastor of St. Prophet Elias.
His parish has The Organ and the Chior with the Robes, and the pews. I was going to visit but that Kinda killed it after I visted the Antiochian Orthodox Parish near me.

Im in the Best location for Orthodox Parishes.

Coptic, Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, ROCOR, OCA, Moscow Patrirarchate Parishes. Its cool.

In Christ
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2003, 02:14:00 PM »


Ive ruled out the OCA as a Possobliltiy, due to some of my views on certain issues, I get the ROCOR view of things. Spiritual Director is ROCOR Cool

In Christ.
Byzantine Catholic soon to be Orthodox Christian
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« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2003, 03:11:13 PM »

JamesB,

Thanks for the info!  I was the one who mentioned St. Elizabeth's.  I live in Rome, but my parents are still in Marietta so I don't consider that very far at all.  I'm going to have to go down and visit sometime, but in all likelihood it will be after the holidays.

Wow...so you were a Methodist minister?  I would like to read your conversion story if you don't mind posting it (or sending me a PM perhaps).

Thanks again!  Smiley

DT
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2003, 04:01:23 PM »


Ive ruled out the OCA as a Possobliltiy, due to some of my views on certain issues, I get the ROCOR view of things. Spiritual Director is ROCOR Cool

In Christ.
Byzantine Catholic soon to be Orthodox Christian

For the benefit of the ongoing discussion please elaborate on your views and their incompatibility with the OCA.

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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2003, 04:21:54 PM »


Ive ruled out the OCA as a Possobliltiy, due to some of my views on certain issues, I get the ROCOR view of things. Spiritual Director is ROCOR Cool

In Christ.
Byzantine Catholic soon to be Orthodox Christian

For the benefit of the ongoing discussion please elaborate on your views and their incompatibility with the OCA.



I would like to read this as well.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2003, 04:30:16 PM »

My first exposure to the spiritual side of Orthodoxy(as opposed to some of its cultural aspects) came through  a bishop-less ex-HOOM parish that later became Bulgarian(they didn't have any Bulgarians though Smiley . A good portion of my family is Orthodox, but nominally. I was the product of mixed marriages, etc. so I wasn't Orthodox. When my family members do attend church it's either a Ukrainian parish of the EP, and some other ones might go to any local Orthodox parish ...not really being concerned with jurisdiction as they will go just for Pascha. Anyway, I might have considered a Ukrainian EP parish but there were none around.

So, at this soon to be Bulgarian parish they really valued the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose and some of Jordanville's greats of the past. This is the Orthodoxy I was first "sold" on. When I first encountered this parish they were without a bishop, recuperating from the Pangratios mess and still very insular in some respects.  I ended up leaving this parish after a little less than a year and settling in at a local OCA parish that I wasn't too keen on...I was aware of the history of the OCA and what I perceive to be somewhat of a betrayal in their accepting autocephaly from Moscow in the 1970's. I would have liked to attend a ROCOR parish at that point but the only option was a parish that uses Slavonic almost exclusively, which wouldn't have worked for me. Anyway, I stayed at this OCA parish for a few years, going to the local ROCOR parish about once a month for feast days of saints' that my parish didn't have.

When I moved from that area this Fall I settled down at a nice little English ROCOR mission a little over an hour from me. The choice to go with ROCOR was based primarily on ROCOR's path of integrity in regards to the value they place on monasticism and remaining Patristic, the stances they've taken in the past regarding the Moscow Patriarchate, their recognition and spiritual unity with the New Martyrs of Russia, their traditional Orthodox piety, and a number of other things. I believe this rich history is manifested at the parish level. Mostly, I feel comfortable in this ROCOR parish and that's why I'm there (I also like talking Ukrainian heritage with a nice Ukrainian lady there.. Smiley ) Though the hows and whys of the OCA autocephaly don't sit right with me, I would attend an OCA parish if it had the same "flavor" that brought me into the Church in the first place. At this point, I'm mostly basing my decisions on which church to attend by the feeling of individual parishes, not solely by jurisdictional affiliation.
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2003, 05:10:38 PM »

We meet in a chapel located on the grounds of a humongous Roman Catholic Church, St. Joseph's in Marietta.  There are some obvious disconnects:  a couple of statues of Christ and the Theotokos for starters, and we have to put our icons up on easels  

James, I didn't realize ya'll drove to Atlanta for services, we'll have to drive up and meet some Sunday.
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2003, 05:26:13 PM »

JamesB -

I belong to an ACROD parish, as well: Nativity of Our Lord, Manassas, Virginia (over an hour's drive away from my home).

The fact that you used to be a Methodist pastor reminded me of another former Methodist pastor who is now a ROCOR priest, Father John Moses.

Here is a link to his church.

Fr. John is great guy, but his church is a little too far from my home, and we are quite happy in ACROD anyway.
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2003, 06:28:08 PM »

At this point, I'm mostly basing my decisions on which church to attend by the feeling of individual parishes, not solely by jurisdictional affiliation.

Even though I respect you for your personal decisions, the above is how it should ALWAYS be for any Orthodox.  Converts especially should be thinking this way as to not develop a political mindset.  Remember, everyone, the praxis is the most important part.
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2003, 07:47:43 PM »

At this point, I'm mostly basing my decisions on which church to attend by the feeling of individual parishes, not solely by jurisdictional affiliation.

Even though I respect you for your personal decisions, the above is how it should ALWAYS be for any Orthodox.  Converts especially should be thinking this way as to not develop a political mindset.  Remember, everyone, the praxis is the most important part.

I think there is a certain danger in seeking out a parish that "feels right," Orthodox or otherwise.  It seems to me it is a reflection of the "What's in it for me?" attitude.  I think that our primary purpose in attending church is to participate in Liturgy - the "common work" of the people of the Church.  

Fr. Thomas Hopko wrote "The Divine Liturgy is the common action of Orthodox Christians officially gathered to constitute the Orthodox Church.  It is the action of the Church assembled by God in order to be together in one community to worship, to pray, to sing, to hear God's word, to be instructed in God's commandments, to offer itself with thansgiving in Christ to God the Father, and to have the living experience of God's eternal kingdom through communion with the same Christ Who is present in his people by the Holy Spirit."   Hopko does not say "It's a place that makes me feel warm and gushy."  

That being said, though, it is nice for the parish to feel "right" right off the bat, because then we can "bank" those good feelings for when the times get rough and lees warm/fuzzy.  Trust me when I say that things will not always be rosy in your parish.  That Priest you think is the cat's meow will get transferred to Walla-Walla, and a new priest with an entirely different personality will replace him, much to your dismay.  Or, a new convert or somebody who moved to your quaint village of Nowheresville will start attending your church - a person who, as you get to know her, will annoy you to absolutely no end.  And on top of it all, she will befriend everybody at church, leaving you to wonder "Am I the only one who can't stand that cow?"  

The point is, when the going gets rough, will you divorce yourself from the church (or even the Orthodox Church) to go find another church where you feel warm and cozy again?  Or, will you stick it out and make things work, like you should be doing with your marriage at home?  Remember - if you are a convert to Orthodoxy, you probably went church-shopping and endured a number of church "divorces" before arriving at Holy Orthodoxy.  You divorced before - who's to say you won't do it again?  

Be vigilant and perservere!  Fight the good fight!  That's my prayer for you all today!  May you endure, persevere, and triumph over periods of despair, and show true determination and dedication to God and His will.

Finally, a word from G.K. Chesterton, who remarked: "He who marries the spirit of the age soon finds himself a widower."

-Karamazov
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2003, 08:05:03 PM »


I think there is a certain danger in seeking out a parish that "feels right," Orthodox or otherwise.  It seems to me it is a reflection of the "What's in it for me?" attitude.  

I understand ...and that's a huge part of the reason I stayed in the OCA parish before I moved- because it was where I started and as difficult as it got, I was determined to remain there despite many obstacles.
Also, let's be realistic. If you have an option between several parishes, you're not going to randomly select one to stay at and hope for the best. You're going to find the one that you feel will bring you closer to Christ. I suppose using the term "comfortable" was a bit misleading. I don't really mean comfort, but the parish I feel I can "progress" towards Christ in. My new parish is by no means "comfortable" in terms of worldly comfort. I'm expected to go to confession more here than at my previous parish. I'm forced to talk with people more and be closer with the priest. These are all spiritually good things for me, but not "comfortable" or "gushy".
I know temptations will come in a new parish. They always do. I'm more than well aware of that and hopefully I'll be preserved to some degree from being too critical or becoming too agitated by certain things. I also hope that I'll be preserved from becoming agitated by presumption on online forums.  Tongue

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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2003, 09:07:11 PM »

Yes, Karamozov, but what you are talking about is more like the "cult of Priest X".  If there are singular people, learn to deal with it.  And your parish is your parish.

BUT, if one thinks that a certain jurisdiction (or sub-jurisdiction, like former AEOM or HOOM parishes or whatever) has issues, then I don't see why you don't have the right to be comfortable in your parish.  This also brings up another issue.  Many people I know in my area drive distances of at least an hour to go to parish X, when there are several fine parishes much closer (even within the same jurisdiction!).  There's a lot to be said about belonging to the community.  This doesn't happen when there's a disconnect from your residence, workplace and church (especially when you really can help it).  Of course, only in America do we really have to worry about these things.  There aren't "jurisdictions" really to worry about in Romania, Russia and Greece (at least not in the American sense).
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2003, 11:31:55 PM »


I think there is a certain danger in seeking out a parish that "feels right," Orthodox or otherwise.  It seems to me it is a reflection of the "What's in it for me?" attitude.  
I also hope that I'll be preserved from becoming agitated by presumption on online forums.  Tongue

Forgive me if I was being presumptuous.. Never intended to agitate you either.  Hope you weren't...
 Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2003, 11:40:14 PM »

Karamazov,
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote above. I'll admit it, my remark above was probably in response to the little jab my ego took from reading it. Don't you have faith in your 3rd generation fellow Ukie brethren?  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2003, 11:11:54 AM »

Karamazov,
I pretty much agree with everything you wrote above. I'll admit it, my remark above was probably in response to the little jab my ego took from reading it. Don't you have faith in your 3rd generation fellow Ukie brethren?  Smiley

Probably, just have little faith in myself.  Worried about all the converts, such as myself, who hopefully will stick with Holy Orthodoxy after the "honeymoon" is over. :-";"xx
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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2003, 02:34:15 AM »


Marietta, thats not far from me, im Riverside area.

Me Methodist Minister? Not me.


My Reasons for ruleing out the OCA? The False autocephaly, for starters, and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

In Christ

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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2003, 03:45:23 AM »

and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

I'm pretty sure the OCA gets "outdone" by many other jurisdictions in regards to ecumenism.
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« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2003, 05:24:44 AM »

and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

I'm pretty sure the OCA gets "outdone" by many other jurisdictions in regards to ecumenism.

Ditto.  That sounds pretty laughable to me.
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2003, 03:03:35 PM »


Me Methodist Minister? Not me.



Sorry about any confusion--I was responding to JamesB.
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« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2003, 10:16:32 PM »


Marietta, thats not far from me, im Riverside area.

Me Methodist Minister? Not me.


My Reasons for ruleing out the OCA? The False autocephaly, for starters, and because of there views on Ecumenism (more then any other Jurisdiction) and there Liberal Nature in general.

In Christ



Whoa!

What "false autocephaly"?

Sounds like you have been listening to the wrong people!

I am not OCA, but I have tremendous respect for it, as I do for all real Orthodox jurisdictions.
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2003, 08:30:52 AM »



Whoa!

What "false autocephaly"?

Sounds like you have been listening to the wrong people!

I am not OCA, but I have tremendous respect for it, as I do for all real Orthodox jurisdictions.

I agree.  I am a member of an  OCA parish and have not seen any of the great deficiencies or erros that some have claimed the entire OCA has.  Sometimes when I read the criticisms of the OCA, I am left wondering what they are talking about, because I have either not seen it or it was totally blown out of proportion or context.

As for false autocephaly, the Patraich of Moscow granted the autocephaly status.  So if one rejects the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate and calls it "Stalin's Church", they could make that claim.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2003, 02:09:24 PM »

If certain people have a problem with the OCA autocephaly, I think this excerpt from a letter written by Fr. Seraphim Rose to an OCA priest at the time of autocephaly might explain why- at least partially.


You wil find in our midst great sympathy and pity for all but the leading hierarchs of Moscow-- and even for some of them you will find fellow-feeling owing to the inhuman circumstances under which they have been forced to betray Orthodoxy....but this fellow-feeling cannont allow us who are free to....place ourselves in the same trap she [the Moscow Patriarchate] was         forced into! And this the Metropolia has done....With every fiber of our being and every feeling of our soul we are repulsed by this free act of betrayal....Do you not grasp the immensity of your spiritual bondage?


Elsewhere he wrote:

Is "stepping onto the world Orthodox scene" really so important to the Metropolia that it must do it at the expense of the suffering Russian Orthodox Faithful? To give one small example: Metropolitan Nikodim is the Metropolia's great "benefactor", and no one can doubt that his success with the Metropolia has strengthened his position with the Moscow Patriarchate. On the other hand, the layman Boris Talantov in the USSR has openly called Metropolitan Nikodim a betrayer of the Church, a liar, and an agent of world anti-Christianity, for which statements (among others) he was imprisoned by the Soviets; Metropolitan Nikodim tells the West that he was in prison for "anti-governmental activities." On January 4th of this year Boris Talantov died in prison, undoubtedly the victim of Metropolitan Nikodim(among others). Can the Metropolia feel itself to be on the side of this confessor? I don't see how it can.
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2003, 02:12:24 PM »


The way that autocephaly status was explained to me is that
the Ecumenical Patriarch with the consent of all the Orthodox Churches, can only grant Autcephaly Status. Ive been told by a
Clergy member in ROCOR that the OCA Autocephaly is false,
and they dont (most dont) deny the legitimacy of the Moscow Patriarchate.

I dont believe the Russian Orthodox Church is the "Church of Stalin"
I just believe that the Mosocow Patriachate has the Authority to grant such a status.

In Christ
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2003, 02:23:20 PM »

The Russian Church has every right to grant autocephaly. The question is for me- how does accepting autocephaly from an enslaved, Soviet run Church reflect on the spiritual direction of the ones accepting that autocephaly? At that time both the people in the official MP churches were persecuted, along with those in the catacomb church. Is it not a betrayal to accept this Church as your spiritual authority before the eyes of the whole world, thereby basically declaring them to be a legitimate institution, worthy of your "business". Does this message sent to the world not undermine the cause of those in Russia, being persecuted for the rejection of the very same body(by being part of the catacomb church) that the Metropolia did business with, all for the sake of their "American church" and finally becoming legitimate again after having broken away from ROCOR?

Of course, today the situation in Russia is different but it must be admitted that in 1970 the persecutions were far from over and the Church hierarchy in Russia was very much a Soviet tool.... It should be mentioned also that the Metropolia gave up its parishes in Japan to Moscow in the deal.

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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2003, 02:56:38 PM »

30 years ago one couldn't trust the bishops of the Church of Russia but they were still bishops, etc.

I don't see how granting their American metropolia independence would have advanced the cause of international Communism.

So there's no reason to question it.
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2003, 03:00:20 PM »

I accept  the OCA's autocephaly. I just think it's quite revealing.
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2003, 03:04:15 PM »

Question:

Other than the Church of Constantinople, which churches do not accept the OCA as autocephalous?

Demetri
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2003, 02:27:02 PM »


Its exactly that reason. My reasoning for not accepting the
Autocephaly Status of the OCA, is because the 1st among equals the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constaninople doesnt.

In Christ
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2003, 02:55:30 PM »

But I thought you said you were leaning towards ROCOR, which is not in communion with that very same Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2003, 03:25:21 PM »

Yeah, AFAIK ROCOR is only in communion with the Serbs and Jerusalem, but by extension (through those two), everyone else.

Byz Chr,

The OCA is in communion with everyone - the EP just doesn't recognize their Autocephaly.  Look at their website (www.oca.org) as well.  There are recent photos (toward the beginning of the year?) about the nice meeting Met. Herman had with the EP.
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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2003, 04:45:55 PM »


Its exactly that reason. My reasoning for not accepting the
Autocephaly Status of the OCA, is because the 1st among equals the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constaninople doesnt.

In Christ

Dear Byzantine Christian,

If the opinion or position of the EP is so important to you, why are you joining ROCOR and not a Church in communion with the EP?

What do you think his position on ROCOR is?

TonyS
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2003, 05:30:14 PM »

I think it was quite normal for the OCA to want autocephaly -- knowing that the MP was indeed under communist influence, and her daughter church in the Americas was indeed mature --- what's wrong with letting the daughter go to live independently?

I totally don't follow any reasoning that OCA autocephaly somehow betrays those suffering under the communist yoke.  Indeed, for his entire life after autocephaly, Fr. Alexander Schmemann - a much maligned leader of the OCA during that time period (maligned during his life and after death) - broadcasted weekly Christian radio broadcasts, in Russian, to his suffering countrymen in Russia, trying to give them hope.  Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, after escaping the USSR, told Father Alexander how much they meant to him.  

Father Seraphim Rose is a great spiritual leader, but this is one area I diagree with him on.

And concerning autocephaly -- the MP's autocephaly wasn't recognized for 100+ years by the Orthodox world after it was proclaimed.  The 30+ years we have here is nothing.
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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2003, 11:06:22 PM »

No im not really considering ROCOR, since they are going to become in communion with the MP there is not point going to ROCOR.
I find that Since he is the 1st Among equals, his opinion are important.

I talk to a ROCOR Priest who as given me the + to go to the Antiochian and Greek Parish, till I am recieved into Orthodoxy.

In Christ
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« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2003, 11:21:46 PM »

Why is there no point in going to ROCOR if they enter into communion with the MP?
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2003, 12:39:33 AM »

I talk to a ROCOR Priest who as given me the + to go to the Antiochian and Greek Parish, till I am recieved into Orthodoxy.

In Christ

Byzantine Christian,

In which jurisdiction will you be recieved and where will you go then?

Tony
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2003, 10:33:36 AM »

Yeah, AFAIK ROCOR is only in communion with the Serbs and Jerusalem, but by extension (through those two), everyone else.

Byz Chr,

The OCA is in communion with everyone - the EP just doesn't recognize their Autocephaly.  Look at their website (www.oca.org) as well.  There are recent photos (toward the beginning of the year?) about the nice meeting Met. Herman had with the EP.

Pictures from the visit can be found here:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/index.html

Here is a nice photo:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/images/DSC_0003.jpg

and another:

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2003/07.july/0703constantinoplevisit/0703ConstantinopleTRKYGreetBartholemew/images/DSC_0018.jpg

From the Enthronment of Metropolitan HERMAN,

http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/episcopacy/mhenthronement/mhenthronement0908.htm

Scroll down and you will find:  Representing His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch and His Eminence Demetrios, Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
His Grace SAVAS, Bishop of Troas and Chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America greets Metropolitan Herman

http://www.oca.org/pages/events/2002/090802mhenthronement/su/images2/P1010015.jpg

Note the other ancient and modern Patriarchates were represented.

Finally, let's not forget that the then-Metropolia went to the EP in the '60s and was told to go to Moscow, which it did and in a particular moment received a favorable reply from Moscow.  

See:  http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Church-Introduction/North-America-1794-1994/Challenges-to-the-Ethnic-Churches.html#canonical

A quote:  "You are Russians," the aged Patriarch Athenagoras said, "Go back to your Mother Church. No one can solve your problem except the Russian Church."

That was the First-Among-Equals, Ecumenical Patriarch ATHENAGORAS.

Think about it.

TonyS
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2003, 12:45:03 PM »

I dont know which Jurisdiction, yet. I am not at that point im my conversion to decided that as of yet. I was directed not to worry about it right now, but I will be attending an Antiochian parish till I finaly decided.

In Christ
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« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2003, 02:39:21 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Our some 16 years in the Orthodox Christian Church has led us through the Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, and now the Antiochian Orthodox Church.  My wife and I see ourselves as Americans who are members of the Holy Orthodox Church, and our chosen jurisdiction is primarily that which is available for us to attend in the area that we live at the time.  I have served as a Subdeacon in both Rocor and now in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Each of our changes to jurisdiction have been based upon availability of the church locally and not the practices of the jurisdictions in general.

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« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2003, 05:20:11 PM »

I must admit to finding it a little confusing how US convert folk seem to be expected to join an ethnicity rather than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I'm not saying folk should just attend the nearest church but I think I'd be looking to be a constructive member of a local congregation of A B or C jurisdiction rather than travel miles just to get to a church of jurisdiction D.

I know that if I moved to NZ anywhere near my ROCOR priest friend Fr Ambrose I'd be worshipping with him rather than travelling halfway up country to join a Coptic congregation or setting up a new congregation in competition with him.

I am increasingly convinced that lay folk and minor clergy have as important a role in sorting out the problems in the Churches as do the priests and bishops. What we do and say gives authority to our bishops to act - I don't mean in a political sense but that the bishops need a Church which is seeking reconciliation, regularisation, spiritual growth, mission, so that they can lead the Church in these things.

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« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2003, 07:24:03 PM »

Unfortunately, some people have to travel to even find a parish.  In many towns and smaller cities, there aren't any Orthodox churches.  Before my mission (and we don't have a resident priest--we have typica services most weeks) started where I live, you had to travel 70 miles to the nearest parish.  In winter (I live in Montana), you may not be able to make the trip often in wintertime when roads are bad and you have to cross a couple of mountain passes to get there.  When I first started looking into Orthodoxy, the mission wasn't here, so I'm thankful to have what I have.  However, if there is more than one jurisdiction in town, I really don't see a problem with attending them all and choosing to attend the one where you feel you fit in and have the most opportunity to grow.  Some parishes are not welcoming to people that are not of their ethnic heritage and the services aren't done in a language they can understand.  I would do whatever I had to do to be Orthodox, but if I had a choice of attending a parish where I am welcomed as family and can serve and grow there, then I will choose that parish.  

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« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2003, 12:58:26 PM »

Im surrounded by Parishes, Russian, Greek, Antiochian, Monophysite, OCA, plus all the eastern catholic churches.

Right now I will be attending the Antiochian Parish. Till I get shiped to USMC bootcamp

In Christ
Daniel
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amnesiac99
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« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2004, 06:40:25 PM »

My early introduction to Orthodox was via what I now know to be traditionalist Orthodox sources, including the works of Fr. Seraphim Rose. I spent two years studying Orthodoxy and church history before even looking for a near-by parish, but when I did, I only found a GOA parish. This is where I was so warmly welcomed into the Orthodox world and was baptized earlier this year.

Over the course of the past few weeks, however, those traditional voices that formed my introduction to the Church returned loudly, and I have found a ROCOR parish that I could attend. The Greek parish I now attend is about forty-five minutes away, and the Russian parish is another approximate twenty minutes away. While I have not yet decided to depart the GOA for the Russian Church Abroad, this is weighing heavily on my mind.
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Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon and save us. Amen!
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« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2004, 08:36:23 PM »

I started with "what was available" (when I was single), but we continue by making the best choices that our family can make, based on a balance between what "is available" and where we can live our convictions.  

4Truth
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