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Author Topic: "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"  (Read 7609 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2009, 10:45:03 AM »

Assist us in our Salvation , anyway i think Mary can save us trough Jesus Christ.

This sounds closer to a co-redemptrix role to me.   

I wonder how many people know that the title "co-redemptrix" is not a dogmatic title in the Catholic Church. I wonder how many people know what theologians in the west even mean by the title "co-redemtrix".
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« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2009, 11:34:38 AM »

I scanned this link yesterday. The author is a traditional Catholic who has taken aim, not at the title "co-redemtrix", but rather, those who are promoting it. He narrows it down to what he thinks it should mean, and what it does not mean.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/contra-vox-populi.htm

There's a couple more essays here, but my favourite is the one entitled "13 reasons to delay" where he takes aim at Vox Populi, Mark Miravelle and a questionable (i.e. fraudulent) Marian apparition.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/

( "Vox Populi" was cited in one of the earlier OC.net threads. )
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2009, 01:28:25 AM »

I just think giving so much focus to others besides our God can have the effect of pushing him out of the focus. Yes the prayers are poetic and beautiful and it is easy to cross a line.  It really is.

Are we pushing the line with the Holy Trinity?  Muslims and Jews seem to think so.  There's a fine line between monotheism and polytheism, and it would be really easy for a person to 'accidentally' form a misconception about the nature of the Godhead and to cross that line you're so worried about.

The fact of the matter is that no one can 'accidentally' give the exclusive worship and adoration due to God alone to anyone or anything else.  That level or reverence and service is fully deliberate.  It is simply going to take you some time to get comfortable with the more subtle distinctions in Orthodoxy.  Different levels of honor are due to different manifestations of God's glory.

The English word "adoration" correctly translates from the Greek word "latreia" or the Latin "adoratio" or "adoratio latriae". Now, there can be no doubt that this is the utmost mode of worship; due to God and to God alone. Adoration as a mode of the utmost form of worship springs from the Christian’s acknowledgement of our absolute dependency on God as created beings. But let’s not forget that “adoration” is still a mode of worship; still a definition of "worship".

But how are we meant to linguistically express the highest form of honor paid to God alone?  Like it or not, worship in current American English usage best conveys this concept to what is due to God alone.  It would be perfectly acceptable for me to say that I adore the Virgin Mary in current English usage; this would not cause scandal to the faithful.  So what do you propose be alternatively used to convey the prohibition of the "latreia" of anyone beside the Lord?
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2009, 01:42:29 AM »

I just think giving so much focus to others besides our God can have the effect of pushing him out of the focus. Yes the prayers are poetic and beautiful and it is easy to cross a line.  It really is.

Are we pushing the line with the Holy Trinity?  Muslims and Jews seem to think so.  There's a fine line between monotheism and polytheism, and it would be really easy for a person to 'accidentally' form a misconception about the nature of the Godhead and to cross that line you're so worried about.

The fact of the matter is that no one can 'accidentally' give the exclusive worship and adoration due to God alone to anyone or anything else.  That level or reverence and service is fully deliberate.  It is simply going to take you some time to get comfortable with the more subtle distinctions in Orthodoxy.  Different levels of honor are due to different manifestations of God's glory.

The English word "adoration" correctly translates from the Greek word "latreia" or the Latin "adoratio" or "adoratio latriae". Now, there can be no doubt that this is the utmost mode of worship; due to God and to God alone. Adoration as a mode of the utmost form of worship springs from the Christian’s acknowledgement of our absolute dependency on God as created beings. But let’s not forget that “adoration” is still a mode of worship; still a definition of "worship".

But how are we meant to linguistically express the highest form of honor paid to God alone?  Like it or not, worship in current American English usage best conveys this concept to what is due to God alone.  It would be perfectly acceptable for me to say that I adore the Virgin Mary in current English usage; this would not cause scandal to the faithful.  So what do you propose be alternatively used to convey the prohibition of the "latreia" of anyone beside the Lord?

I don't really propose anything, I just thought the history surrounding the word "worship" and the misconceptions that we have surrounding it are kind of interesting. I did warn that it was a tangent.  Wink
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2009, 01:53:34 AM »

I just think giving so much focus to others besides our God can have the effect of pushing him out of the focus. Yes the prayers are poetic and beautiful and it is easy to cross a line.  It really is.

Are we pushing the line with the Holy Trinity?  Muslims and Jews seem to think so.  There's a fine line between monotheism and polytheism, and it would be really easy for a person to 'accidentally' form a misconception about the nature of the Godhead and to cross that line you're so worried about.

The fact of the matter is that no one can 'accidentally' give the exclusive worship and adoration due to God alone to anyone or anything else.  That level or reverence and service is fully deliberate.  It is simply going to take you some time to get comfortable with the more subtle distinctions in Orthodoxy.  Different levels of honor are due to different manifestations of God's glory.

The English word "adoration" correctly translates from the Greek word "latreia" or the Latin "adoratio" or "adoratio latriae". Now, there can be no doubt that this is the utmost mode of worship; due to God and to God alone. Adoration as a mode of the utmost form of worship springs from the Christian’s acknowledgement of our absolute dependency on God as created beings. But let’s not forget that “adoration” is still a mode of worship; still a definition of "worship".

But how are we meant to linguistically express the highest form of honor paid to God alone?  Like it or not, worship in current American English usage best conveys this concept to what is due to God alone.  It would be perfectly acceptable for me to say that I adore the Virgin Mary in current English usage; this would not cause scandal to the faithful.  So what do you propose be alternatively used to convey the prohibition of the "latreia" of anyone beside the Lord?

The Trinity is doctrinally defined and spelled out clearly in the Church councils. The veneration of Mary isn't.  We don't honestly know how much is acceptable and how much isn't, other than by what we read in the prayers and liturgy of the Church.  Still, the words that we find in such do not tell us the whole story. There is more than enough "ammunition" found in such that if someone desired to engage in Mariolatry, they easily could by reading or singing hymns such as the akathist or the supplicatory canon, and would probably go unnoticed. From what I gather here, it is not the words present in these liturgical texts and prayers, so much as it "the meaning" behind them. The Church doesn't really tell us if we're supposed to really "mean it" when we call Mary the "saviour of our souls" or "our only hope". We don't have disclaimers on top of our prayers and hymns to the Theotokos that say, "The following is contained within the context of  Byzantine poetic exaggeration, flowery language, and hyperbole." As a result, many people, expecially inquirers, end up taking such words as literal. Honestly, can you blame them? Can we reallly tell these people, "Well, we call her our only hope, but of course we don't really mean that!" Well then, what else don't we take literally or consider to be "poetic exaggeration"?  

 Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2009, 03:10:21 AM »

Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.

And while it makes perfect sense that you are seeking clarification on many of these issues as a catechumen, does it really seem appropriate for you to be so hyper-critical of the Church that you're seeking to enter at such an early stage?  Shouldn't you be eager to learn from the Church, not to begin pronouncing judgments on her practices?

The most practical advice I can give you is to begin to actually pray these prayers.  I had to do this as a form of self-purification for a time, in order to counteract the resistance I was also getting from my Protestant half (I was raised half Southern Baptist and half Catholic).  I saw the Church bringing healing into every other aspect of my life, but I was openly resisting the Mother of God.  Understanding this is going to take time.

My only passing advice is to pick your battles, because I've already seem a lot of people argue their way right out of Orthodoxy.  Don't let the Virgin Mary being your stumbling block.  If you must, for now just focus on other things and come back to this later. 

Or just ignore me, because I'm probably totally off the mark.   Wink
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2009, 03:16:53 AM »

Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.

And while it makes perfect sense that you are seeking clarification on many of these issues as a catechumen, does it really seem appropriate for you to be so hyper-critical of the Church that you're seeking to enter at such an early stage?  Shouldn't you be eager to learn from the Church, not to begin pronouncing judgments on her practices?

The most practical advice I can give you is to begin to actually pray these prayers.  I had to do this as a form of self-purification for a time, in order to counteract the resistance I was also getting from my Protestant half (I was raised half Southern Baptist and half Catholic).  I saw the Church bringing healing into every other aspect of my life, but I was openly resisting the Mother of God.  Understanding this is going to take time.

My only passing advice is to pick your battles, because I've already seem a lot of people argue their way right out of Orthodoxy.  Don't let the Virgin Mary being your stumbling block.  If you must, for now just focus on other things and come back to this later. 

Or just ignore me, because I'm probably totally off the mark.   Wink
No, I think you're right on target with your advice. Wink
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2009, 05:15:59 AM »

Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.

And while it makes perfect sense that you are seeking clarification on many of these issues as a catechumen, does it really seem appropriate for you to be so hyper-critical of the Church that you're seeking to enter at such an early stage?  Shouldn't you be eager to learn from the Church, not to begin pronouncing judgments on her practices?

The most practical advice I can give you is to begin to actually pray these prayers.  I had to do this as a form of self-purification for a time, in order to counteract the resistance I was also getting from my Protestant half (I was raised half Southern Baptist and half Catholic).  I saw the Church bringing healing into every other aspect of my life, but I was openly resisting the Mother of God.  Understanding this is going to take time.

My only passing advice is to pick your battles, because I've already seem a lot of people argue their way right out of Orthodoxy.  Don't let the Virgin Mary being your stumbling block.  If you must, for now just focus on other things and come back to this later. 

Or just ignore me, because I'm probably totally off the mark.   Wink

I'm sorry, I've just been really frustrated lately. Aside from this issue, nearly everything else in Orthodoxy seems rock solid and makes perfect sense to me. Honestly, I think Orthodoxy is my last shot. If I convince myself out of this, I doubt there would be any more hope for me as far as Christianity goes, or any religion for that matter. I suppose i'll just try to focus on what I do understand for the time being and give this a rest.
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2009, 05:22:56 AM »

Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.

And while it makes perfect sense that you are seeking clarification on many of these issues as a catechumen, does it really seem appropriate for you to be so hyper-critical of the Church that you're seeking to enter at such an early stage?  Shouldn't you be eager to learn from the Church, not to begin pronouncing judgments on her practices?

The most practical advice I can give you is to begin to actually pray these prayers.  I had to do this as a form of self-purification for a time, in order to counteract the resistance I was also getting from my Protestant half (I was raised half Southern Baptist and half Catholic).  I saw the Church bringing healing into every other aspect of my life, but I was openly resisting the Mother of God.  Understanding this is going to take time.

My only passing advice is to pick your battles, because I've already seem a lot of people argue their way right out of Orthodoxy.  Don't let the Virgin Mary being your stumbling block.  If you must, for now just focus on other things and come back to this later. 

Or just ignore me, because I'm probably totally off the mark.   Wink

I'm sorry, I've just been really frustrated lately. Aside from this issue, nearly everything else in Orthodoxy seems rock solid and makes perfect sense to me. Honestly, I think Orthodoxy is my last shot. If I convince myself out of this, I doubt there would be any more hope for me as far as Christianity goes, or any religion for that matter. I suppose i'll just try to focus on what I do understand for the time being and give this a rest.

To be honest with you, I was struggling with issues regarding our veneration of the Theotokos right up to the day before I was to convert; and I have never had a Romophobic bone in my body. I think it's natural to be concerned that one isn't overstepping the line with something that is so foreign to previous experience, but if one trusts the Church, one trusts the Church.  I hope that with God's grace, you are able to overcome this hurdle. I did. Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2009, 08:11:21 AM »

Quote
The Church doesn't really tell us if we're supposed to really "mean it" when we call Mary the "saviour of our souls" or "our only hope".

This must be understood in relationship with Jesus , and in relationship with the Incarnation.Without Mary we would not have the Incarnation, God Himself choose it to be this way , that through a woman and the offspring of the woman to come the Salvation of the world.This is God`s response to Adam , who said : The woman Thou gave me.So the same way the world fell , the same way is restaurated through a woman, the woman becoming the instrument of our Salvation, the chosen vessel.By her birth,the birth of Christ came salvation.

The head is crushed entirely by the Woman and the Man.She(the Woman) has a role in crushing the head of the serpant and represents the Church, the bride of God.Mary is called our only hope , because of her role in the Incarnation of Jesus, who represents the contribution of the world in God`s Salvation , the partaker of God`s plan , foretold from eternity.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [Genesis 3:15]"

let`s remmeber what David says about her:

"They shall make mention of thy name from generation to generation: therefore shall the nations give thanks to thee for ever, even for ever and ever." [Psalms 44:11 /45:9]

"I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever." KJV

And


And Mary said:

My soul glorifies the Lord

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

for he has been mindful

of the humble state of his servant.

From now on all generations will call me blessed,

for the Mighty One has done great things for me—

holy is his name. [Luke 1:46-49]
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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2009, 09:34:19 AM »

See, I wouldn't argue about giving Mary her due for the role she played.  I think one of the worst losses for the Protestants was the inspiration of all the saints, Muslims even honor saints including Mary, John the Baptist, and other.  When you think about it, these people all played important roles in bringing other to God, in some way or other, Mary in a particularly huge way. Smiley Darn well we'd better honor them.  Where I run into the wall is when it comes to invoking her (or any saint) for future intentions, miracles, protection, etc which really can only come from God. If we were JUST asking her to pray for us, it wouldnt be problematic in my mind. This all couldn't have happened without her free will (or shall we say because God gave her the choice at the annunciation), granted - but I think her overall 'role' in this gets inflated. I mean, it was God who chose her intially anyway, it was his idea... ah, deep thoughts. Good morning. Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2009, 10:55:07 AM »

See, I wouldn't argue about giving Mary her due for the role she played.  I think one of the worst losses for the Protestants was the inspiration of all the saints, Muslims even honor saints including Mary, John the Baptist, and other.  When you think about it, these people all played important roles in bringing other to God, in some way or other, Mary in a particularly huge way. Smiley Darn well we'd better honor them.  Where I run into the wall is when it comes to invoking her (or any saint) for future intentions, miracles, protection, etc which really can only come from God. If we were JUST asking her to pray for us, it wouldnt be problematic in my mind. This all couldn't have happened without her free will (or shall we say because God gave her the choice at the annunciation), granted - but I think her overall 'role' in this gets inflated. I mean, it was God who chose her intially anyway, it was his idea... ah, deep thoughts. Good morning. Smiley

Do you believe that God can work miracles through people living on this earth at present time--for example, through a surgeon's hands?

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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2009, 02:36:52 PM »


What about the incident at Blachernae?

According to Eastern Orthodox Sacred Tradition, the apparition of Mary the Theotokos occurred during the 10th century at the Blachernae church in Constantinople where several of her relics (her robe, veil, and part of her belt) were kept. On Sunday, October 1 at four in the morning, St. Andrew the Blessed Fool-for-Christ, who was a Slav by birth, saw the dome of the church open and the Virgin Mary enter, moving in the air above him, glowing and surrounded by angels and saints. She knelt and prayed with tears for all faithful Christians in the world. The Virgin Mary asked her son, Jesus Christ, to accept the prayers of all the people entreating him and looking for her protection. Once her prayer was completed, she walked to the altar and continued to pray. Afterwards, she spread her veil over all the people in the church as a protection.
St Andrew turned to his disciple, St. Epiphanius, who was standing near him, and asked, "Do you see, brother, the Holy Theotokos, praying for all the world?" Epiphanius answered, "Yes, Holy Father, I see it and am amazed!"
An icon of the Virgin Mary praying, surrounded by people, was said to be kept in the Blachernae church. It is said to reproduce the events as St Andrew saw them that day.

What a wonderful example, no?  She asked in earnest on our behalf.  She, herself, didn't manifest the miracle, but, through her intercession the people were saved. 

What's to say that is the case in all miracles attributed to her?

One of the 10 Commandments teaches us to respect our Mother and Father. 

When Christ turned the water into wine at the wedding in Cana, He stated that it was not yet time for Him to reveal Himself.  Yet, because His mother asked this of Him, He could not say "no" to her (per the Commandment).

Using that as an example, wouldn't it be accurate to assume that if she asks Christ today to grant us whatever it is that we are asking for help with, that He would listen to her?

I'm not saying that Christ takes "orders" from anyone, however, it is harder to say "no" to One's mother.

 
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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2009, 04:08:00 PM »

I am a cradle Orthodox and phrases like "Mary, the savior of our souls" or "our only hope" have also bothered me.  Of course, these phrases cannot be sound theological statements. And, of course, they are sentimental pleas.

When I had one foot in the grave with heart problems, many people prayed for me. As for me, I prayed the Lord's prayer and also prayed for the Lord to make the doctors and nurses His instruments, His extensions. In any case, it is hard for me to say with certainty whether I am alive today because it was not time for me to go; the intercessions of the people and Saints who prayed for me; the actions of any particular doctor, surgeon or nurse; a direct intervention by God; or any combination of the above. (You will notice that I am discounting the last possibility that I am alive because a combination of luck, medical science, and my body and mind fighting death--this is a very remote possibility as my doctors to this day are amazed that I survived.)

I am telling you all this because when you look at this analysis of mine, one thing becomes very clear. All of the "what ifs" and logic pale into insignificance (almost disappear as when the sun burns off the fog) when you realize that the bottom line is: without God I would not be alive. Therefore, I advise you, as others have, not to concentrate on the phrases about the Theotokos or any other prayer that bother you. The object is not intellectual assent and satisfaction but the chalice.
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2009, 06:03:12 PM »

Thanks second chance for that very inspiring account.  I will ask one more question, although not directly related to the Theotokos.

I was in catechesis the other day, and one of the girls in there told the priest that she can't look up at the dome anymore because she is so afraid of Jesus.  I know that fear of God is a virtue, and one that we should all seek after. He is our dread Judge, of course, but he is also the one to whom we are to boldy approach with all of our concerns.  Do you think that as a result of this fear, that people feel they are not worthy to go directly to Him, and approach His mother instead in attempt to appease Him, since she does not have the ability to judge or condemn? Or perhaps in a sense, we consider her as our "safe" passageway to direct our concerns to, so she will filter them appropriately before sending them to Him, so we don't risk asking Christ things that would bring condemnation upon us?
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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2009, 06:23:53 PM »

Thanks second chance for that very inspiring account.  I will ask one more question, although not directly related to the Theotokos.

I was in catechesis the other day, and one of the girls in there told the priest that she can't look up at the dome anymore because she is so afraid of Jesus.  I know that fear of God is a virtue, and one that we should all seek after. He is our dread Judge, of course, but he is also the one to whom we are to boldy approach with all of our concerns.  Do you think that as a result of this fear, that people feel they are not worthy to go directly to Him, and approach His mother instead in attempt to appease Him, since she does not have the ability to judge or condemn? Or perhaps in a sense, we consider her as our "safe" passageway to direct our concerns to, so she will filter them appropriately before sending them to Him, so we don't risk asking Christ things that would bring condemnation upon us?

That is certainly possible. But, why fret about this? You don't have to pray in any particular way in your private prayer life. The Lord told us we could pray directly to God the Father (the Lord's Prayer). We know we can pray to the Lord Himself and to the Holy Spirit. You can choose one or many set prayers, or even pray from your heart.

On the other hand, there are a lot of references in the Holy Scriptures to intercessions. In addition to praying directly to God the father, Son or the Holy Spirit, you could also ask for the intercession of your Christian friends and fellow Church members (to include the Theotokos and all of His Saints). Again, it does not really matter as, in each instance, you are praying to God.

Also, don't fret about what others believe or do; some things that we do are just pious customs--just concentrate on the essential task. As you get closer to the Lord, you will naturally draw closer to other members of His Body.
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« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »

Honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific words or phrases that the Orthodox considered as "off-limits" to use towards any person other than God. I believe this to be a very mis-leading and potentially dangerous practice.

And while it makes perfect sense that you are seeking clarification on many of these issues as a catechumen, does it really seem appropriate for you to be so hyper-critical of the Church that you're seeking to enter at such an early stage?  Shouldn't you be eager to learn from the Church, not to begin pronouncing judgments on her practices?

The most practical advice I can give you is to begin to actually pray these prayers.  I had to do this as a form of self-purification for a time, in order to counteract the resistance I was also getting from my Protestant half (I was raised half Southern Baptist and half Catholic).  I saw the Church bringing healing into every other aspect of my life, but I was openly resisting the Mother of God.  Understanding this is going to take time.

My only passing advice is to pick your battles, because I've already seem a lot of people argue their way right out of Orthodoxy.  Don't let the Virgin Mary being your stumbling block.  If you must, for now just focus on other things and come back to this later. 

Or just ignore me, because I'm probably totally off the mark.   Wink

I'm sorry, I've just been really frustrated lately. Aside from this issue, nearly everything else in Orthodoxy seems rock solid and makes perfect sense to me. Honestly, I think Orthodoxy is my last shot. If I convince myself out of this, I doubt there would be any more hope for me as far as Christianity goes, or any religion for that matter. I suppose i'll just try to focus on what I do understand for the time being and give this a rest.
Here is a simple way to look at this statement (Holy Theotokos, save us).  If you and some friends fell into a river and were drowning, you would shout, “Help!  Save us!”  You are not requesting that the person who throws you a rope save your souls. You are requesting that this person help you and your friends escape from danger.  Mary prays for us which helps us escape from "danger".

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« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2009, 09:25:36 PM »

Thanks second chance for that very inspiring account.  I will ask one more question, although not directly related to the Theotokos.

I was in catechesis the other day, and one of the girls in there told the priest that she can't look up at the dome anymore because she is so afraid of Jesus.  I know that fear of God is a virtue, and one that we should all seek after. He is our dread Judge, of course, but he is also the one to whom we are to boldy approach with all of our concerns.  Do you think that as a result of this fear, that people feel they are not worthy to go directly to Him, and approach His mother instead in attempt to appease Him, since she does not have the ability to judge or condemn? Or perhaps in a sense, we consider her as our "safe" passageway to direct our concerns to, so she will filter them appropriately before sending them to Him, so we don't risk asking Christ things that would bring condemnation upon us?
I feel saddened by your statement that someone cannot look upon the icon in your dome.  In my worthless opinion, I think she will feel less afraid after she goes to confession for the first time. She will feel relieved and will feel how much God loves her.

I have always had empathy for adult converts when they go to confession for the first time.  ( I have to warn people, behind me in the confession line, that it is going to be a looong wait once I get up there.)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 09:26:38 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2013, 05:06:53 PM »

The Greek word for "Save" is "Soson." Save is an accurate translation into English.

 I'm late to the conversation but I was reading a book on the Divine Liturgy the other day and the author, Fr. Vassilios Papavassiliou, explained that 'soteria' can also mean 'to protect' or 'to help' in relation to asking Mary to save us.  This makes sense and also also helps.  But since 'soteria' is the word often used with 'salvation' (soteriology), what's the difference between "Soteria" and "Soson"?
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« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2013, 07:45:33 PM »

Christ is the only Savior, yet He uses means, including persons to save, therefore persons are said in our scripture to save,, as indicated clearly by the selective examples listed below.

That only Christ saves, and that persons can save others too is a typical "both/and" ancient Near Eastern (and explicitly biblical) method of speaking that potentially gives some modern Europeans and Americans (like yours truly) fits, but the problem is more cultural and linguistic than biblical. The both/and method not only of speaking, and not only thinking, but also being is, I would argue, integral to the Patristic doctrine of theosis and as such NOT a proper thing to jettison or cease to place at the forefront precisely as our Divine Liturgy has in the wisdom of our Fathers among the saints long placed it.

James 5:20 "remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

1 Tim 4:16 "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

Jude 22-23 "Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

Rom 11:14 "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry n the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

1 Cor 7:16: "How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"

1 Cor 9:22: "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."

We do not save alone. Mary does not save alone. Christ is the wellspring of our salvation who said "without Me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:54). Gal 2:20: "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." If we cannot understand and affirm what our Most Holy Theotokos, Fathers, and Saints were and are in Christ how can we begin to comprehend much less pursue what we in Christ are called to be and do?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 08:14:12 PM by xariskai » Logged

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