Author Topic: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood  (Read 3952 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,534
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« on: September 16, 2009, 04:02:49 PM »
On today's entry over at OrthodoxHistory.org, we read a comment made by Fr. Nathaniel Irvine, a famous early 20th century convert to Orthodoxy, on Isabel Hapgood, whose translations of the liturgical books of the Church into English are quite famous:

Quote
On translator Isabel Hapgood: “That vixen Miss Hapgood. What a liar – she has damned the Church for years.”

Any idea what he meant by this?  This is the first time I've seen her (and, presumably, her work) maligned in such a way.  Consider my curiosity piqued.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 04:03:18 PM by Schultz »
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,143
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 06:13:19 PM »
I think this is talked about in:
American Orthodox History-
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/history

She was a Protestant woman who was clearly (in my opinion) too liberal in her ideas and I think that maybe some of the translations were poor and not entirely theologically accurate. (though It was a couple days since I listened to the podcast so I may be wrong)
That point of view though comes from what I heard on the podcast, so I don't know anything beyond what is said in the podcast.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 09:47:20 AM by Schultz »

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 06:34:42 PM »
I understand that Fr. Nathaniel Irvine is called the "Prophet of American Orthodoxy".
Reading his quotes, all I can say is mores the pity for American Orthodoxy.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,534
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 09:47:36 AM »
I think this is talked about in:
American Orthodox History-
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/history

She was a Protestant woman who was clearly (in my opinion) too liberal in her ideas and I think that maybe some of the translations were poor and not entirely theologically accurate. (though It was a couple days since I listened to the podcast so I may be wrong)
That point of view though comes from what I heard on the podcast, so I don't know anything beyond what is said in the podcast.


thanks, I'll have to take a look at that.  I know she was a Protestant but St. Tikhon approved of her work and the Antiochians still use her translations, hence my confusion.  I'm more interested in why Fr. Nathaniel referred to her as "a liar," as that seems a bit harsh way to criticize someone's translation work.  There has to be something more to it, IMHO.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,399
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 10:20:43 AM »
Yes, I have to agree.  Btw, I don't think I've been to an Orthodox Church that used English, no matter the juridiction, who didn't have a Hapgood.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,143
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 10:33:02 AM »
I don't think it was a criticizing of her translation work, it may have been him criticizing her opinions on other matters... But I could be wrong, as I said, it was the beginning of the week when I listened to the podcast and I can't quite remember what Matthew Namee said.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,534
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 10:47:38 AM »
Aha!  Matt posted a follow up article on OrthodoxHistory.org, the first of at least two, that begins to answer my question.

Things are starting to make sense now. :)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 10:48:22 AM by Schultz »
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 10:53:51 AM »
Tons of Orthodox parishes in the USA use the Hapgood for various services.  I've even seen Bishops use the Hapgood.  Now I've never seen Divine Liturgy, Matins or Vespers served from the Hapgood.  I have seen Readers tonsured, Subdeacons ordained, baptisms and so forth used from the Hapgood.

Offline witega

  • Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 11:37:47 AM »
Interesting.

From a letter from Hapgood to St. Tikhon:
Quote
The Cathedral Choir, propertly constituted large enough, is immensely more important to your Church and Mission in this country than twenty little new parishes. . . . There is nothing which can exert so great an influence on the best, most influential part of the public here as can a splendid Cathedral Choir.

If that's the sort of advice she was giving him, I can see why I parish priest might be upset about her influence. And quite rightly.

Out of curiosity, ozgeorge, other than the quote about Hapgood--for which the context is still in question--what do you find objectionable about Fr. Nathaniel's quotes?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 11:38:15 AM by witega »
Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,743
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 02:39:16 PM »
Interesting.

From a letter from Hapgood to St. Tikhon:
Quote
The Cathedral Choir, propertly constituted large enough, is immensely more important to your Church and Mission in this country than twenty little new parishes. . . . There is nothing which can exert so great an influence on the best, most influential part of the public here as can a splendid Cathedral Choir.

If that's the sort of advice she was giving him, I can see why I parish priest might be upset about her influence. And quite rightly.

Out of curiosity, ozgeorge, other than the quote about Hapgood--for which the context is still in question--what do you find objectionable about Fr. Nathaniel's quotes?
I think ozgeorge was really looking to Fr. Nathaniel's quotes as evidence of the "prophet's" negative influence on American Orthodoxy.  I'm personally interested to hear what he has against Fr. Nathaniel based on his quotes.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
Out of curiosity, ozgeorge, other than the quote about Hapgood--for which the context is still in question--what do you find objectionable about Fr. Nathaniel's quotes?
Self righteousness. Self assuredness. Emphasising unity of administration. Not understanding the importance of Church music. The Freemason Conspiracy Theory. Aggressiveness.....
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline 88Devin12

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,143
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 12:28:12 AM »
I will have to say though, Hapgood's statement on the "music" being more important than "20 new little parishes" is obviously VERY misguided and a very unfortunate statement. I don't blame Irvine for having the reaction he had.

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,496
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 08:04:54 PM »
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=911

George has sparked a whole new article due to his comments.  :P

Here is a comment I appended to this essay when it was reposted on the facebook page for OrthodoxHistory.org:

Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about people taking a comment from a message board (that it is my message board is tangential) and then instead of replying on said message board, creating a post elsewhere about it (I don't mind the hits though!) Message boards are communities of people who have their own histories, identities, personalities, positions, and relationships with one another, and in effect the post in question is taken from a snapshot in time, and out of the total context of the community. The author states he would credit the author if he knew his name--he would know his name if he were part of our community. There's something odd about that, but then again, message boards are public, hence my unsureness. The author of that comment is on my FB friends list coincidentally. I will forward this post to him so he is aware of it and can contact the author of this piece if he wishes.
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 09:25:50 PM »
I'm not a member of word press so I cant comment on the blog, and we are not friends on facebook so I don't have the option to comment there either.
Hopefully the author will come here and expose himself to a bit of peer review. Judging from the other comments the author has received on his facebook entry of the article, others have taken issue with what he has claimed as well.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,399
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 07:49:27 AM »
I'm not a member of word press so I cant comment on the blog,

Sign up.  It's quite easy.


Quote
and we are not friends on facebook so I don't have the option to comment there either.

For a variety of reasons (including computer ignorance  :P) I don't do facebook, so I"m with you there.


Quote
Hopefully the author will come here and expose himself to a bit of peer review. Judging from the other comments the author has received on his facebook entry of the article, others have taken issue with what he has claimed as well.

Others have taken issue with his thesis that there wasn't Orthodox unity in the Russian Archdiocese.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 09:05:27 AM »
Sign up.  It's quite easy.
No thank you. Firstly, the author is quoting this forum on his blog, so I think its basically "sheep stealing" to try and attract people from the forum to his blog. If the author has a problem with something stated on this forum, he should discuss it on this forum as an equal, not take control of the discourse on a blog.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,516
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 12:48:00 PM »
I need a T-shirt that says:

"Fr. Nathaniel Irvine is my Home Boy!"











ICXC NIKA
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,399
Re: Fr. Nathaniel Irvine on Isabel Hapgood
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 01:40:48 PM »
Sign up.  It's quite easy.
No thank you. Firstly, the author is quoting this forum on his blog, so I think its basically "sheep stealing" to try and attract people from the forum to his blog. If the author has a problem with something stated on this forum, he should discuss it on this forum as an equal, not take control of the discourse on a blog.


Ah. Turf.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth