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Author Topic: Abkhaz Diocese separates from Georgian Church  (Read 8227 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 16, 2009, 09:45:34 AM »

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The Abkhaz Diocese has proclaimed the official separating from the Georgian Orthodox Church, Priest Vissarion Aplia, head of the Diocese, told the press in Sukhumi.

An assembly of the local Orthodox clergy at the Sukhumi Cathedral on Tuesday "approved this decision," he said.

"The Abkhaz Church has officially separated from Georgian, restoring historical justice. Since the end of the Georgian-Abkhaz war, Abkhazia's Orthodox clergy have made their aspirations felt on many occasions, appealing to all supreme Orthodox bodies. But all of them have been silent fearing rifts with the Georgian Diocese," he said.

"The Sukhumi-Abkhaz Diocese has remained subordinated to the Georgian Catholicos-Patriarch since 1943," Father Vissarion said, adding that Abkhazia was joined to the Georgian Church by force.

The restored Abkhaz Orthodox Church will have the Dioceses of Pitsunda and Sukhumi. The main Cathedral was previously located in Pitsunda, he said.

The Abkhaz Diocese will turn to the Moscow Patriarchate and to the Russian Patriarch for support, Fr. Vissarion added.

And MP won't accept it:

Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church yet again states its respect for the canonic borders of the Georgian Patriarchate.

"We respect the canonic borders of the Georgian Orthodox Church," acting Secretary of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, Inter-Orthodox Relations, Priest Igor Yakimchuk told Interfax-Religion on Wednesday.

This is how he commented the statement of the head of the Sukhumi and Abkhazia Diocese Priest Vissarion Aplia about the formal separation from the Georgian Church and the intent to establish the Abkhaz Local Church and ask the Moscow Patriarchate for assistance on this matter.

Father Igor noted that representatives of Abkhazian clergy had expressed such view on the church issues before. Meanwhile, the position of the Moscow Patriarchate on the matter "remains unchanged", the priest highlighted.

"There are different standpoints which we are considering in our work, but nevertheless, we stick to the principle of integrity of the canonic borders of local Churches," Fr. Igor said.

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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 02:42:47 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6446

16 September 2009, 16:17

Catholicos of Georgia does not take seriously the statement of Abkhazian Diocese independence

Tbilisi, September 16, Interfax - The statements of Abkhazia's clergy about the withdrawal from the Georgian Orthodox Church are not serious, Catholicos-Patriarch Ilia II of All Georgia told journalists on Wednesday.

"We should not take this statement seriously, as nobody has the authority to declare independence from the native Church," Catholicos said.

Head of the Sukhumi and Abkhazia Diocese Priest Vissarion Aplia reported the formal separation of his Diocese from the Georgian Church to journalists in Sukhumi late Tuesday.

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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 02:52:04 PM »

I wonder if this diocese may try to align themselves with the EP to help.  I hope not.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 03:11:54 PM »

I wonder if this diocese may try to align themselves with the EP to help.  I hope not.

It's not funny. It's terrifying.

Deacon Kuraiev as usually has to put in:

Quote
Professor of the Moscow Theological Academy Archdeacon Andrey Kurayev believes the best way to settle the Abkhaz church problem for today is to temporally transfer the local diocese to locum tenancy of the Russian Church.

“If Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia asked the Moscow Patriarch to become a locum tenants temporally administering the Abkhaz and South Ossetian Dioceses, then all Orthodox canons would be observed as one Church cannot interfere in canonical borders of the other one. It would also save the Georgian Church honor and integrity of its canonical borders,” Fr. Andrey said in his interview to Interfax-Religion on Wednesday.

He also reminded that Byzantium had such practice when the Middle East was under Arab and later under Turk rule.

According to the theologian, if such model is realized, “all unanimous wishes of Abkhaz and South Ossetian people will be taken into account.” Besides, it will be possible “for canonical priests to celebrate the Liturgy for Abkhazians and South Ossetians.”

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 04:15:56 PM »

Priest Vissarion Aplia, head of the Diocese,

source

Priest don't head dioceses. A major lacuna in the reports so far is that there has been no mention of the actual head of the diocese, the bishop. Is Priest Vissarion in actual fact leading a schism *within* the diocese with some portion remaining loyal to the current bishop? Is the diocese currently without a bishop (and thus without an actual head)?
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 06:26:22 PM »

Priest Vissarion Aplia, head of the Diocese,

source

Priest don't head dioceses. A major lacuna in the reports so far is that there has been no mention of the actual head of the diocese, the bishop. Is Priest Vissarion in actual fact leading a schism *within* the diocese with some portion remaining loyal to the current bishop? Is the diocese currently without a bishop (and thus without an actual head)?

Or is the priest listed the chancellor, vicar, or locum tenens, administering the diocese while waiting for a bishop to be elected?
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 03:09:45 AM »

Or is the priest listed the chancellor, vicar, or locum tenens, administering the diocese while waiting for a bishop to be elected?

I think that that's true.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 03:17:50 AM »

What good is separating from a body without even having a bishop? Sheesh.
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2009, 03:24:23 AM »

What good is separating from a body without even having a bishop? Sheesh.

They hoped that MP will accept them but MP has let them down.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 05:39:07 AM »

What good is separating from a body without even having a bishop? Sheesh.

They hoped that MP will accept them but MP has let them down.

The Church of Russia has made it clear, many many times afer the Georgian war, that it will not intrude on the canonical territory of the Church of Georgia.  I do not think that Russia has let anybody down.
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 11:48:43 AM »

Or is the priest listed the chancellor, vicar, or locum tenens, administering the diocese while waiting for a bishop to be elected?

I think that that's true.

Can a Priest administer a Diocese as locum tenens? 
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 02:26:24 PM »


fr Georgi Jweinat headed the diocese for the JP here in US.  Then a bishop was appointed - Archbishop Damaskinos of Jaffa etc..  Now Fr Georgi is head of the Palestinian/Jordanian Vicariate under a take over by EP - the Canonical Church in  USA.
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 02:55:17 PM »

I the Czech Republic there was (is?) also a diocese ruled by a Presbyter.
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 03:32:23 PM »

Some of you are making the same mistake as the newspaper report. In the Orthodox Church, a priest cannot head a diocese. He might, as cleveland suggested, be a chancellor and be in charge of handling administrative duties in the absence of the bishop. But 'the guy handling the administration' does not equal 'the head of a diocese' in Orthodox ecclesiology--Fr. Georgi, for example was never head of a JP diocese, he was the administrator/deputy for the Patriarch of Jerusalem himself who was the 'head' of those parishes until another bishop was appointed.

Without the authorization of an actual, overseeing bishop--either the ruling bishop for the diocese or a locum tenens during the period before a new bishop can be elected--a priest like Fr. Vissarion isn't even allowed to serve liturgy.
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 05:27:29 PM »

What good is separating from a body without even having a bishop? Sheesh.

They hoped that MP will accept them but MP has let them down.

So now they're just Acephalist?
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2011, 12:06:03 PM »

It's all in process still. In South Ossetia the Orthodox there went to the Synod in Resistance of the Greek Orthodox Old Calendrist Church (the 'Cyprianites') to establish an independent eparchy. If the Georgians can't get over the fact that Abkhazia is an independent state that wants its own Local Orthodox Church and the Russians continue to stay out of things, then maybe the Abkhaz Orthodox will do the same as the South Ossetians?
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 01:41:51 AM »

A bit of history:
Quote
The Catholicate of Abkhazia (Georgian: აფხაზეთის საკათალიკოსო, Greek: Καθολικος Αμπχαζία) was a subdivision of the Georgian Orthodox Church that existed as an independent entity in western Georgia from the 1470s to 1814. It was headed by the Catholicos (later, Catholicos Patriarch) of Abkhazia, officially styled as the Catholicos Patriarch of Imereti, Odishi, Ponto-Abkhaz-Guria, Racha-Lechkhum-Svaneti, Ossetians, Dvals, and all of the North. The residence of the Catholicoi was at Bichvinta (now Pitsunda) in Abkhazia (hence, the name of the Catholicate), but was moved to the Gelati Monastery in the late 16th century. In 1814, the last Catholicos of Abkhazia was removed from his office by Imperial Russia which would take control of Georgian church until 1917.

The date when the Catholicate of Abkhazia was established is not completely clear, but most scholars put it between the ninth and eleventh centuries. The titular Catholicoi of Abkhazia were only occasionally mentioned in the contemporary sources and did not enjoy independence at that time, but were subordinated to the Georgian Orthodox Patriarchal see at Mtskheta. The first written account on the Catholicate of Abkhazia dates to 1290. By that time, the Mongol rule had divided Georgia into its eastern and western parts, with the latter being de facto independent from the Mongol Ilkhanid dynasty, to which Georgia was a subject. The political independence of the western Georgian rulers, Kings of Imereti, might have also resulted in the revival of the Catholicate of Abkhazia, but it was not until the late 15th century, when it emerged as an independent religious entity. With the final disintegration of the unified monarchy of Georgia, a breakaway Bagratid branch in western Georgia with their capital at Kutaisi energetically promoted ecclesiastic freedom of their kingdom from the Patriarchate of Georgia. The Imeretian king Bagrat VI (1463-1478) managed to secure the support of Michael IV, Patriarch of Antioch who, at the king’s request, consecrated Archbishop Joachime of Tsaish and Bedia, as Catholicos of Abkhazia. To justify the break with the Mtskheta see, Michael issued a special document, The Law of Faith, in which he stated that western and eastern Georgia had different histories of conversion and, therefore, they should be independent from each other.

Thus, the Catholicoi of Abkhazia became independent and later assumed the title of Patriarch. Their spiritual jurisdiction extended over the Kingdom of Imereti and its vassal principalities – Guria, Mingrelia, Svaneti, and Abkhazia. They considered themselves as vicars of St. Andrew, who, according to a medieval Georgian tradition, preached Christianity in western Georgia, then known to the Classical authors as Colchis. At various periods of its existence, the Catholicate of Abkhazia was subdivided into several dioceses (eparchies), including those of Bichvinta, Kutaisi, Gelati, Tsageri, Tsaishi, Tsalenjikha, Chkondidi, Khoni, Ninotsminda, Nikortsminda, Shemokmedi, Jumati, Dranda, Bedia and Mokvi, centered on the respective cathedrals.

In the latter part of the 16th century, Catholicos Patriarch Eudemos I (Chkheidze) had to move his residence from Bichvinta to the Gelati Monastery at Kutaisi, fleeing the Ottoman expansion into Abkhazia. Eudemos launched a series of important reforms and restored a communion with the Patriarchate of Georgia, retaining his status of an independent prelate, however. The Catholicoi of Abkhazia mostly came from the leading Georgian noble houses, and were able to support the church financially and secure its continuous involvement in the political and cultural life of western Georgia. However, the Islamization of Abkhazia, Adjara, and Lower Guria under the Ottoman rule delivered a hard blow to the Catholicate. The close cooperation between the royal dynasty and the church in the late 18th century resulted in the revival of Christianity in Guria, and a portion of Abkhazia. After the conquest of Imereti by Imperial Russia in 1810, the Catholicate of Abkhazia was also abolished, in 1814, by the Russian authorities and annexed to the Exarchate of Georgia, a subdivision of the Russian Orthodox Church, whose part it was until the restoration of the unified and autocephalous Georgian Orthodox Church in 1917.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicate_of_Abkhazia
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2011, 02:25:27 PM »

What good is separating from a body without even having a bishop? Sheesh.

They hoped that MP will accept them but MP has let them down.

The Church of Russia has made it clear, many many times afer the Georgian war, that it will not intrude on the canonical territory of the Church of Georgia.  I do not think that Russia has let anybody down.




Yes, the MP has done the right thing here.

Unlike what the Russian Orthodox Church did in tsarist times.
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 04:25:03 PM »

If the Georgians can't get over the fact that Abkhazia is an independent state that wants its own Local Orthodox Church

Please don't act as if that excuses schismatic behavior.

Heck, they didn't even bother to appeal to the inter-provincial Church first!

And even if they had it still wouldn't have excused it. So they are really two rungs away from proper behavior in this situation.
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 04:54:33 PM »

Let them be as the Macedonians of FYROM if they love politics more than Christ.
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 06:41:00 PM »

The "inter-provincial church"? What church would that be? :-)

It's a difficult situation - the Abkhazian government won't allow Georgian clergy to serve in the country and Georgian clergy come with their own national agendas, so what is to be done? Is it right for their to be no divine services for the Abkhaz Orthodox because of the political situation between Sukhumi and Tbilisi?
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2011, 11:20:53 PM »

The "inter-provincial church"? What church would that be? :-)

The Universal Church is made up of numerous provincial/particular churches. What I was saying is that they should petition to authorities greater than their own particular church. If you all have some understanding of Antioch being the mother church of Georgia, then that would be the first step. Beyond that, the Church Universal ought to be consulted, and from what I have heard/seen, Constantinople is the church to which those sorts of petitions are directed.

It's a difficult situation - the Abkhazian government won't allow Georgian clergy to serve in the country and Georgian clergy come with their own national agendas, so what is to be done? Is it right for their to be no divine services for the Abkhaz Orthodox because of the political situation between Sukhumi and Tbilisi?

No, it's not right. But simple schism is not the proper way to treat it. The church, in the context of the interference of the Abkhazian government, has certain options within the range of what is acceptable:

-Take up a stance of resistance to the Abkhazian government (as, IMO, on a certain level it has set up itself as an enemy of the church) and attempt to send in Priests to serve the Abkhazian people regardless of the government.
-Grant the Abkhazian church autocephaly (or if not this, then autonomy with an Abkhazian primate) to prevent the interference of the government.
-IF the Georgian church is not willing to pursue either of these options then obviously it has come to a point of abusing the faithful through deprivation and neglect and the inter-provincial church should be petitioned for intervention.
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2011, 11:24:25 PM »

I understand now. We don't have "inter-provincial" churches, but considering the stand of the Georgian Orthodox Church the Abkhazian Orthodox should certainly appeal to Constantinople in its role as our court of last appeal. Whether Constantinople itself has the best interests of the Church as a whole at heart, however, is another matter entirely :-/.
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2011, 11:31:32 PM »

I understand now. We don't have "inter-provincial" churches, but considering the stand of the Georgian Orthodox Church the Abkhazian Orthodox should certainly appeal to Constantinople in its role as our court of last appeal. Whether Constantinople itself has the best interests of the Church as a whole at heart, however, is another matter entirely :-/.

Uh....

If you think that you don't have "inter-provincial churches", then you are not understanding what I mean by it.

I mean the communion as a whole made of various particular churches, most of which are provincial.

The communion is thus the inter-provincial.
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2011, 11:36:15 PM »

A very Anglican way to look at it :-). If you follow the role of ecclesiastical provinces in the West more strictly they'd actually correspond to self-governing archdioceses or metropolias within autocephalous churches - the Churches of the Ukraine and Japan being examples. A Local Orthodox Church can be comprised of one 'province' (as most are in our times) or several (as was generally the case in the past and is still the case with the Churches of Constantinople, Rus', Armenia, and, if I'm not mistaken, Serbia and Romania).
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 11:46:35 PM »

A very Anglican way to look at it :-). If you follow the role of ecclesiastical provinces in the West more strictly they'd actually correspond to self-governing archdioceses or metropolias within autocephalous churches - the Churches of the Ukraine and Japan being examples. A Local Orthodox Church can be comprised of one 'province' (as most are in our times) or several (as was generally the case in the past and is still the case with the Churches of Constantinople, Rus', Armenia, and, if I'm not mistaken, Serbia and Romania).

I don't think "Anglican" is a fair way of describing it. For the first few centuries all the churches were essentially regional. There was the South Italian church, the North Italian church, the Pontian church, the Asian church, the Egyptian church, the Armenian church (which though not according to Roman administrative divisions, was nonetheless the church of the Kingdom of Armenia), etc. Churches being regional by nature was the norm of the Church. Anything otherwise is an innovation.

But anyway, I think you are focusing too much on my use of the term "provincial". I was simply trying to say that when one's particular autocephalous church is not acting properly, one should petition to the authority of the conglomeration of all the autocephalous churches.
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2011, 11:57:08 PM »

I've only encountered such a strong attachment to the term amongst Anglicans :-). Terminology aside, your point's understood! God help Abkhazia...
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 12:04:37 AM »

I've only encountered such a strong attachment to the term amongst Anglicans :-).

I must say, I do not look down on Anglicans to anywhere near the degree I often see on this forum. I have a fair amount more respect for their tradition. And I have a fair amount of Anglican friends. I only shy away from the association because of the common highly negative connotation that seems to come with it here. Nonetheless, I actually got this emphasis from studying the ecclesiology of the early Church.
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 12:12:40 AM »

I have a great many Anglican friends as well. Their terminology is their own though - I would not refer to an autocephalous church as a province anymore than I would an hieromonk as "dom." (Though referring to a Western Rites hieromonk as "dom" is an entirely different matter as that is a customary use of their rites.)
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2011, 12:22:37 AM »

I don't know all the complexities of the conflict between Georgia and Russia aside from snippets in the news, but it all makes me sad. This should not be. Lord, have mercy. Sad
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2011, 12:46:33 AM »

I have a great many Anglican friends as well. Their terminology is their own though - I would not refer to an autocephalous church as a province

Well, now it doesn't entirely reflect the reality. However, the terminology really comes from the early Church when the autocephalous churches were precisely provincial churches. And, IMO, the way they have developed beyond that is an anomaly and sometimes even a perversion. So I continue to prefer the usage of the early Church, as indicating what once was and what ought to be.
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2011, 02:30:20 PM »

Agreed Bogdan!
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2011, 03:19:55 PM »

Quote
The Abkhaz Diocese has proclaimed the official separating from the Georgian Orthodox Church...The Abkhaz Diocese will turn to the Moscow Patriarchate and to the Russian Patriarch for support, Fr. Vissarion added.
And MP won't accept it:
Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church yet again states its respect for the canonic borders of the Georgian Patriarchate."We respect the canonic borders of the Georgian Orthodox Church," acting Secretary of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, Inter-Orthodox Relations, Priest Igor Yakimchuk told Interfax-Religion on Wednesday.This is how he commented the statement of the head of the Sukhumi and Abkhazia Diocese Priest Vissarion Aplia about the formal separation from the Georgian Church and the intent to establish the Abkhaz Local Church and ask the Moscow Patriarchate for assistance on this matter.Father Igor noted that representatives of Abkhazian clergy had expressed such view on the church issues before. Meanwhile, the position of the Moscow Patriarchate on the matter "remains unchanged", the priest highlighted.  "There are different standpoints which we are considering in our work, but nevertheless, we stick to the principle of integrity of the canonic borders of local Churches," Fr. Igor said.
source
The situation is distressing, but on the bright side MP is doing the right thing. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2011, 12:02:16 PM »

Let them be as the Macedonians of FYROM if they love politics more than Christ.
How can you be so simplistic.  I really do not understand how this is a logical statment.  Look at what happned to the Bulgarians?  They were eventually accepted as an autocephalous church with their own Patriarchate.
The Romanians declared themselves autocephalous.
History is not that simple.
Just because you disapprove of a certain ethnic group expressing their wish to have services in their own language like the Estonians for example, does not mean that they do not love Christ.
What about the Russians forcing the Georgians to have have services in Church Slavonic.
By your reasoning we would have to say that the Russian orthodox hierarchy loved Politics more than Christ.

We cannot escape our history.
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2011, 12:33:36 PM »

So we are allowed to follow  that pitiful examples?
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2011, 03:00:18 AM »

God bless Georgia and all her friends

I am sorry if my post is a little long but I want to say something from my heart. It is important that people know about Georgia a little bit, especially those who do not understand issues with Abkhazia and think it is pity little nationalistic arrogance of ours. This is not so though we glorify our country and love it too much.

Georgia is not just a small country somewhere. It is an important orthodox country (and probably most important for the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ). We venerate All-Holy Virgin Theotokos and there's reason for that:
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When the disciples of Christ cast lots after Pentecost, the lot for evangelizing Georgia fell to the Most Holy Theotokos. But Christ revealed to His Mother that it was not His will for her to preach there. “You have been entrusted to protect the Georgian nation,” He said, “but the role of evangelizing that land belongs to My disciple Andrew the First-called. Send him with an image of your face ‘Not-Made-By- Hands’ to protect the Georgian people to the end of the ages!”
The lord said "Send him with an image of your face ‘Not-Made-By- Hands’ to protect the Georgian people to the end of the ages!" Then what happened? Did The Lord abandon us, leave us? Christ has never left us. Holy Trinity has never left us. If anybody has an idea about Georgian history then he will be amazed how on the earth this nation has survived. The enemies from all sides ever fought Georgia and her people trying to erase it from the face of the earth. But we are still here. This is a miracle. Miracles come from God only. Our presence is the witness to God's promise being fulfilled. Then why did we loose our territory in Abkhazia which was gift from God and which we were obliged to defend more than anything else? Because nothing happens for no reason. Because a small stone will not be moved if it was not God's will. Great living saints and prophets of today in Georgia say this is the price we pay for going away from God and abandoning his commandments and his will. Once the nation comes to Almighty then the nation will be one and then Abkhazia will go back to its righteous owner. By punishing people Georgians started to come to Him, to God. Spirituality is on the rise in Georgia. We needed punishment. It was for our best. I believe in our tradition and I believe in our saints of the past and today. They all pray for us and we are awakening towards God, for prayers of righteous men go up to God and they are heard.

We (unfortunately) forget that the owner off the whole creation is the One Holy Trinity. The wars are not won by just the armament this or that country possess.

If interested one can read a little more about the Holy relics that are safeguarded in Georgia, one can read some info here and here (btw this is also one of the sermons by His Holiness and Beatitude Catholicos-Patriarch of all Georgia) and here.

Again my apologies if my words are too long. Glory to God and God bless all righteous men.
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2011, 12:23:14 PM »

So we are allowed to follow  that pitiful examples?
It is "pitaful" as you state because the Greeks in Constantinople could not understand that their Empire had fallen and even though they were given power over the Bulgarians, serbians and Romanian under Ottoman rule, that power was coming to an end too.
The same can be said about Russian power and the MP.  The Russian Empire of the tsars has fallen and so have the Soviet empire.
In 1991 the people of Ukraine voted way over 90% to become a free independent country.  The same with Estonia and all the Baltic countries.
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2011, 03:11:43 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. No one is fomenting for separate Churches there. All Africa is under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. There are countries in Africa with more Orthodox Christians than Abkhazia, but they are not clamoring to be autocephalous. Accusing Orthodox Churches of cultural genocide just because they say "no" to dismemberment is over the top. If you want to quote history, you had better do some in depth research instead of trotting out tired examples. Why do you want the Orthodox Church to bow to political pressure from politicians who show little or no concern for the Church? In FYROM, the Macedonian Orthodox Church has been a pawn of the state since communism, and continues to be so, even though the Archdioces of Ochrid is autonomous and His Eminence Jovan is not on a program of calling Macedonians Serbs. In Ukraine, the Russian Metropolia is also Autonomous, and has the majority of Orthodox Ukrainians in its fold--Ukrainians who identify as Ukrainians, not Russians, even if many do not speak Ukrainian. Yes, it's complicated all around the world, but to side with one group automatically because it wants independence is blind.
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2011, 04:22:26 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. ... In Ukraine, the Russian Metropolia is also Autonomous, and has the majority of Orthodox Ukrainians in its fold--Ukrainians who identify as Ukrainians, not Russians, even if many do not speak Ukrainian. Yes, it's complicated all around the world, but to side with one group automatically because it wants independence is blind.
Actually, the UOC-KP has the largest number of members in Ukraine, not the Moscow Patriarchate.  Historically, the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Kyiv was under the EP when Moscow created it own patriarchate.
Historically, when countries have become independent like Serbia, Bulgaria, and Romania, they became national churches and got their own patriarchates.
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2011, 05:34:03 PM »

I agree that ethnicity should not be a prime factor in creating independent churches, but at the same time when the politics of the situation are so complicated as to completely cut a regional church off from its mother church (possibly permanently), then it might be time to consider ways of providing valid mysteries to the faithful in those regions, whether on a temporary basis or through a new, permanent arrangement. Added to this the fact that there was a patriarchate responsible for Circassia/Abkhazia/Ossetia/Western Georgia (Imereti) in the past and I don't see why Abkhazia doesn't merit its own church (at the very least autonomous if the Georgians can't live with autocephaly).
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« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2011, 10:13:12 AM »

I agree that ethnicity should not be a prime factor in creating independent churches, but at the same time when the politics of the situation are so complicated as to completely cut a regional church off from its mother church (possibly permanently), then it might be time to consider ways of providing valid mysteries to the faithful in those regions, whether on a temporary basis or through a new, permanent arrangement. Added to this the fact that there was a patriarchate responsible for Circassia/Abkhazia/Ossetia/Western Georgia (Imereti) in the past and I don't see why Abkhazia doesn't merit its own church (at the very least autonomous if the Georgians can't live with autocephaly).
Some wise words
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2011, 12:03:21 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. ... In Ukraine, the Russian Metropolia is also Autonomous, and has the majority of Orthodox Ukrainians in its fold--Ukrainians who identify as Ukrainians, not Russians, even if many do not speak Ukrainian. Yes, it's complicated all around the world, but to side with one group automatically because it wants independence is blind.
Actually, the UOC-KP has the largest number of members in Ukraine, not the Moscow Patriarchate.
 
Not to get into the numbers game, but the numbers are close enough that they do not matter either was de facto. De jure, of course, they don't matter: a majority of schismatics cannot elect a canonically deposed bishop as their "Patriarch" ex officio in the diptychs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Historically, the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Kyiv was under the EP when Moscow created it own patriarchate.
Historically, the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', resident at Moscow for over a century, was elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All the Rus' and Northern Lands.  The Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' (yes, you can say a contradiction) was taken from Moscow and made into an exarchate of the EP in 1593 with the ratification of Moscow's Patriarchate, on the basis that the Tsardom of Russia did not control Ukraine at the time, which was occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  It became a moot point when PL outlawed the Orthodox Church in its domains in 1596.  Patriarch Theophanes III of Jerusalem consecrated a new Metropolitan of Kiev in 1620, Yov Beretsky, who was succeeded by Isaia Kopynsky in 1631, who favored reunion with Moscow.  The PL King legalized the Orthodox Church in 1632, on the condition that Met. Isaia be replaced (along with the other bishops consecrated by the Pat. of Jerusalem), which was done with the assension of Met. St. Peter Movila in 1633(-1646). The Metropolitinate was reunited to the Patriarchate in 1686.

Historically, when countries have become independent like Serbia, Bulgaria, and Romania, they became national churches and got their own patriarchates.
Not quite.  But I think I will make a thread on that.
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 01:34:53 PM »

Quote
Historically, the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Kyiv was under the EP when Moscow created it own patriarchate.
Historically, the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', resident at Moscow for over a century, was elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All the Rus' and Northern Lands.  The Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' (yes, you can say a contradiction) was taken from Moscow and made into an exarchate of the EP in 1593 with the ratification of Moscow's Patriarchate, on the basis that the Tsardom of Russia did not control Ukraine at the time, which was occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  It became a moot point when PL outlawed the Orthodox Church in its domains in 1596.  Patriarch Theophanes III of Jerusalem consecrated a new Metropolitan of Kiev in 1620, Yov Beretsky, who was succeeded by Isaia Kopynsky in 1631, who favored reunion with Moscow.  The PL King legalized the Orthodox Church in 1632, on the condition that Met. Isaia be replaced (along with the other bishops consecrated by the Pat. of Jerusalem), which was done with the assension of Met. St. Peter Movila in 1633(-1646). The Metropolitinate was reunited to the Patriarchate in 1686.

The Metropolitanate of Kyiv was always united with the EP, but the throne was vacant.  The people remained Orthodox and priests continued to celebrate the name of EP in their liturgies.
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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2011, 01:41:39 PM »

Quote
Historically, the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Kyiv was under the EP when Moscow created it own patriarchate.
Historically, the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', resident at Moscow for over a century, was elevated to Patriarch of Moscow and All the Rus' and Northern Lands.  The Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' (yes, you can say a contradiction) was taken from Moscow and made into an exarchate of the EP in 1593 with the ratification of Moscow's Patriarchate, on the basis that the Tsardom of Russia did not control Ukraine at the time, which was occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  It became a moot point when PL outlawed the Orthodox Church in its domains in 1596.  Patriarch Theophanes III of Jerusalem consecrated a new Metropolitan of Kiev in 1620, Yov Beretsky, who was succeeded by Isaia Kopynsky in 1631, who favored reunion with Moscow.  The PL King legalized the Orthodox Church in 1632, on the condition that Met. Isaia be replaced (along with the other bishops consecrated by the Pat. of Jerusalem), which was done with the assension of Met. St. Peter Movila in 1633(-1646). The Metropolitinate was reunited to the Patriarchate in 1686.

The Metropolitanate of Kyiv was always united with the EP, but the throne was vacant.
 
Vacant when?

The people remained Orthodox and priests continued to celebrate the name of EP in their liturgies.
when are you speaking of?
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 03:06:41 PM »

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The Metropolitanate of Kyiv was always united with the EP, but the throne was vacant.
 
Vacant when?

Do you mean from the time when the former Metr. of Kyiv left the Orthodox Church and joined the Catholic Church to when a new Metropolitan of Kyiv was consecrated?
The vast majority of the people and married clergy rejected any thought of union with the Catholics and continued to be Orthodox Christinas.
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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 04:09:00 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. No one is fomenting for separate Churches there.

Forgive my ignorance, but, I am curious.  Have these nations (Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) been enemies to each other?  Have they invaded each other's lands and tried to annihilate each other's peoples, languages and cultures?

I'm honestly curious, as I don't know my history concerning those lands, and don't have time to research them at the moment.

Might they be completely happy and complacent to be under "Antioch" because they trust each other?

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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 04:17:30 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. No one is fomenting for separate Churches there.

Forgive my ignorance, but, I am curious.  Have these nations (Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) been enemies to each other?  Have they invaded each other's lands and tried to annihilate each other's peoples, languages and cultures?

I'm honestly curious, as I don't know my history concerning those lands, and don't have time to research them at the moment.

Might they be completely happy and complacent to be under "Antioch" because they trust each other?


A very good answer Liz.  You are right on the ball.
The patriarch of Antioch is not allied with the government the way the MP is now and was under the tsars.  The Church was a tool of assimilation taking away the rights of say the Georgians to have their liturgies in their traditional language before they were taken over by Russia.  And the Finns had to have their services in Church Slavonic.
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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2011, 07:37:32 PM »

In Moldova too, they had to switch back to Slavonic when the new eparchy became part of the Muscovite church. The Muscovite bishop Platon even ordered all Romanian church books to be gathered from churches and burned.
That's why some will always mistrust the Russians. Sorry.
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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2011, 07:44:55 PM »

Speaking on Lebanon, one could say there are similar tensions there as the Lebanese widely mistrust the Syrian government and resent its intervention in Lebanese internal affairs. I wouldn't say the Patriarchate is close to the Syrian government in the way that the Moscow Patriarchate is to the Russian government, but it certainly closer to it than it does to the Lebanese government (when there is one anyways).

I wasn't aware that the Orthodox Church in Moldova still discouraged Romanian-language services - that would certainly be odd considering that their website is in Romanian (or Moldavian or whatever the PC term is in the former USSR right now).
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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2011, 07:50:26 PM »

Not now, during the tsarist regime. Now they are more open to concessions.
The name of the said bishop is Pavel Lebedev (1871-1882). My mistake.
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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2011, 09:31:52 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. No one is fomenting for separate Churches there.

Forgive my ignorance, but, I am curious.  Have these nations (Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) been enemies to each other?  Have they invaded each other's lands and tried to annihilate each other's peoples, languages and cultures?

I'm honestly curious, as I don't know my history concerning those lands, and don't have time to research them at the moment.

Might they be completely happy and complacent to be under "Antioch" because they trust each other?


Iraq and Syria have been at each other's throats since at least 656. Relations between Syrian and Lebanon have been tense, but not as long.

Antioch, btw, is occupied at present by the Turkish Republic, which Iraq, Syria and Lebanon do not trust at all.  Nor should they.
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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2011, 09:36:01 PM »

There are national Churches, there are diaspora Churches, and there are Churches which exist in territories of other national Churches (Japan and Ukraine, for example). I fail to see how every small breakaway territory should get its own church just because it has political independence. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, all are under Antioch. No one is fomenting for separate Churches there.

Forgive my ignorance, but, I am curious.  Have these nations (Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) been enemies to each other?  Have they invaded each other's lands and tried to annihilate each other's peoples, languages and cultures?

I'm honestly curious, as I don't know my history concerning those lands, and don't have time to research them at the moment.

Might they be completely happy and complacent to be under "Antioch" because they trust each other?


A very good answer Liz.  You are right on the ball.
The patriarch of Antioch is not allied with the government the way the MP is now and was under the tsars.  The Church was a tool of assimilation taking away the rights of say the Georgians to have their liturgies in their traditional language before they were taken over by Russia.  And the Finns had to have their services in Church Slavonic.
The rights of the Abkhaz were taken away when they were taken over by the Russians too: their Church was autocephalous at the time, and not under Georgia.
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2011, 11:39:47 AM »

In Moldova too, they had to switch back to Slavonic when the new eparchy became part of the Muscovite church. The Muscovite bishop Platon even ordered all Romanian church books to be gathered from churches and burned.
That's why some will always mistrust the Russians. Sorry.
Thanks.  I never knew that.  This strange because when Bukovyna became part of the Soviet Union, the churches there were taken over by the MP.  The Ukrainian-speaking parishes were returned to the Old Calendar, but the Romanian-speaking parishes were allowed to continue on the New calendar and the services were clebrated in Romanian with Romanian sermons.
Different rules for different parts of the Soviet Union.
In Karelia, the Orthodox Church did not adopt Finnish, which was used in the inter-war period when karelia was part of Finland, but went back to Church Slavonic as in tsarist Russia.
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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2011, 12:11:58 PM »

In Karelia, the Orthodox Church did not adopt Finnish, which was used in the inter-war period when karelia was part of Finland, but went back to Church Slavonic as in tsarist Russia.

That's probably what the faithful wanted. I recall reading that quite many of the Finnish-speaking faithful were against Finnish services when they began.
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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2011, 01:21:55 PM »

I don't want to defend the burning of Romanian-language service books in Russian Bessarabia (that's absolutely awful), but the services only began to be served in Romanian in the 1500s or 1600s and Romanian was established as the sole church language in the mid-1800s, so isn't it entirely possible that there was still some conservative animus against this in what today is Romania, particularly those territories further east and closer to Rus' like Bessarabia?
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« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2011, 01:38:58 PM »

In Karelia, the Orthodox Church did not adopt Finnish, which was used in the inter-war period when karelia was part of Finland, but went back to Church Slavonic as in tsarist Russia.

That's probably what the faithful wanted. I recall reading that quite many of the Finnish-speaking faithful were against Finnish services when they began.
Quite the opposite.  There is a book in English on the Finnish Orthodox Church
As soon as Finland was free from Russia, they started using Finnish as a liturgical language and of course in Karelia too which was a part of Finland.
And the Finns did not try to "punish" the Russians who were already living in Finland or escaped to Finland after the Russian Revolution.  They were allowed to continue to celebrate in Church Slavonic and have sermons in Russian.
In fact i have a CD from the 1980's at home of the choir of Uspensky Cathedral and the music is in Church Slavonic.  I foget the name of director but I have heard Russians in Canada who say he is famous in the Russian speaking diaspora.  So the Finns were not interested in revenge.
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« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2011, 01:41:13 PM »

I don't want to defend the burning of Romanian-language service books in Russian Bessarabia (that's absolutely awful), but the services only began to be served in Romanian in the 1500s or 1600s and Romanian was established as the sole church language in the mid-1800s, so isn't it entirely possible that there was still some conservative animus against this in what today is Romania, particularly those territories further east and closer to Rus' like Bessarabia?
I think you are loosing track of the time frame in which this happpened.  Bessarabia was part of Romania in between the 2 world wars.
Then when the Soviet Union took it over after WW2, the MP came in and burned the Romanian liturgical books and forced all the churches to be under the MP and not the Patriarch of Bucharest. 
Also the services to be celebrated in Church Slavonic.
This is not the 1600's.
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« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2011, 01:53:12 PM »

In Karelia, the Orthodox Church did not adopt Finnish, which was used in the inter-war period when karelia was part of Finland, but went back to Church Slavonic as in tsarist Russia.

That's probably what the faithful wanted. I recall reading that quite many of the Finnish-speaking faithful were against Finnish services when they began.
Quite the opposite.  There is a book in English on the Finnish Orthodox Church

Alpo is Finnish. I suppose he knows more about history of the Finnish Orthodox Church that you, who read 'a book in English'.
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« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2011, 01:58:33 PM »

And the person in question who had the service books burned in Bessarabia lived in the 1800s, not the 1900s :-). And since services have been celebrated in the Moldovan Orthodox Church in Romanian and Slavonic (in Russian and Ukrainian-speaking churches) since World War II I would think that also counts against your statement.
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« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2011, 02:28:07 PM »

In Karelia, the Orthodox Church did not adopt Finnish, which was used in the inter-war period when karelia was part of Finland, but went back to Church Slavonic as in tsarist Russia.

That's probably what the faithful wanted. I recall reading that quite many of the Finnish-speaking faithful were against Finnish services when they began.
Quite the opposite.  There is a book in English on the Finnish Orthodox Church
As soon as Finland was free from Russia, they started using Finnish as a liturgical language and of course in Karelia too which was a part of Finland.

That could be true but the change wasn't as simple as you imply. Here's what Juha Riikonen is writing about the situation in the early 20th century. He's a Finnish Doctor of Theology and wrote his dissertation about Finnish Church's relations with the MP. The faulty translation into English is of course mine.

Quote from: Juha Riikonen
The attemps to make Orthodox Karelians Finnish came from outside so they were unsuccesful. Being a Finn didn't offer to Orthodox Karelians anywhere as big benefits as connections to Russian Karelia. Karelians had centuries old cultural, social and populational ties to Aunus' Karelians behind the border and to the capital [of Russia]: St. Petersburg. Furthermore, Karelians deemed Church Slavonic to be the only proper language for services and they demanded it's preservation even though they did understand it barely at all. The most important was to uphold the tradition.

Eventually of course Finnish services were accepted and nowadays services in Slavonic are celebrated only because of immigrants.
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« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2011, 08:05:57 PM »

I don't want to defend the burning of Romanian-language service books in Russian Bessarabia (that's absolutely awful), but the services only began to be served in Romanian in the 1500s or 1600s and Romanian was established as the sole church language in the mid-1800s, so isn't it entirely possible that there was still some conservative animus against this in what today is Romania, particularly those territories further east and closer to Rus' like Bessarabia?
Man, you are one of those American Orthodox for whom the Russians can do no harm.
I can sniff that. And it's fine with me. But you should know history better than that: the inferior clergy was persecuted and coerced into complying with that mad bishop's Russification plans. Read how many teachers and priests of Basarabia were sent into exile by the "God-loving tsar" for using their native language in school and church.  Truth is that for us, the smaller Orthodox peoples on the edges of Russia not much good has come from there. And for some it's still the case.
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« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »

I don't want to defend the burning of Romanian-language service books in Russian Bessarabia (that's absolutely awful), but the services only began to be served in Romanian in the 1500s or 1600s and Romanian was established as the sole church language in the mid-1800s, so isn't it entirely possible that there was still some conservative animus against this in what today is Romania, particularly those territories further east and closer to Rus' like Bessarabia?
Man, you are one of those American Orthodox for whom the Russians can do no harm.
I can sniff that. And it's fine with me. But you should know history better than that: the inferior clergy was persecuted and coerced into complying with that mad bishop's Russification plans. Read how many teachers and priests of Basarabia were sent into exile by the "God-loving tsar" for using their native language in school and church.  Truth is that for us, the smaller Orthodox peoples on the edges of Russia not much good has come from there. And for some it's still the case.

And, to tie back with the OP, the current Russian political involvement in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
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« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2011, 08:17:38 PM »

I'm not defending what they did and I personally feel that most of the Romanovs might as well have been the Ottoman padishah considering how little they did for Orthodoxy in their empire, but I am very much interested in how reforms have been received in the past (because of what they can teach us in the present). I've read a ton about the Old Belief, but I've long wondered how the introduction of Romanian into the services went and since the topic was indirectly brought up I was hoping someone better read than I would know. (Two other areas I'd loved to learn more about are how the change in typicon in Rus' was received and how the reform of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy enacted in the Middle East in the late 1800s was received.)

Thank you so much for your 'contribution'...
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« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2011, 09:52:55 PM »

I'm not defending what they did and I personally feel that most of the Romanovs might as well have been the Ottoman padishah considering how little they did for Orthodoxy in their empire, but I am very much interested in how reforms have been received in the past (because of what they can teach us in the present). I've read a ton about the Old Belief, but I've long wondered how the introduction of Romanian into the services went and since the topic was indirectly brought up I was hoping someone better read than I would know.

In 1675 the Serbian Metropolitan of Transylvania, Sava Branković, held a synod that banned Romanian from worship (saying it was "deficient"), but required that the sermons be in Romanian.  In 1688 Pat. Doroseos of Jerusalem wrote the preface to the translation of the Romanian Bible praising the idea of translating the Scriptures.  He insisted the reading must be in Romanian, but in 1698 he banned the DL in Romanian, only in Slavonic or Greek (why is speculation.  It can be just that the DL had not been authoratively translated then).  The last Slavonic liturgical texts published in Bucharest were published in 1745, Moldavia ceasing shortly before, and Transylvania in 1700. Greek had replaced Slavonic with the comming of the Phanariots.  Romanian became the sole language in 1863, but by then Romanian had been the overwhelming language for about a century.

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(Two other areas I'd loved to learn more about are how the change in typicon in Rus' was received and how the reform of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy enacted in the Middle East in the late 1800s was received.)
LOL. It wasn't.
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« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2011, 10:25:41 PM »

I'm not defending what they did and I personally feel that most of the Romanovs might as well have been the Ottoman padishah considering how little they did for Orthodoxy in their empire, but I am very much interested in how reforms have been received in the past (because of what they can teach us in the present). I've read a ton about the Old Belief, but I've long wondered how the introduction of Romanian into the services went and since the topic was indirectly brought up I was hoping someone better read than I would know.

In 1675 the Serbian Metropolitan of Transylvania, Sava Branković, held a synod that banned Romanian from worship (saying it was "deficient"), but required that the sermons be in Romanian.  In 1688 Pat. Doroseos of Jerusalem wrote the preface to the translation of the Romanian Bible praising the idea of translating the Scriptures.  He insisted the reading must be in Romanian, but in 1698 he banned the DL in Romanian, only in Slavonic or Greek (why is speculation.  It can be just that the DL had not been authoratively translated then).  The last Slavonic liturgical texts published in Bucharest were published in 1745, Moldavia ceasing shortly before, and Transylvania in 1700. Greek had replaced Slavonic with the comming of the Phanariots.  Romanian became the sole language in 1863, but by then Romanian had been the overwhelming language for about a century.

Quote
(Two other areas I'd loved to learn more about are how the change in typicon in Rus' was received and how the reform of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy enacted in the Middle East in the late 1800s was received.)
LOL. It wasn't.

It's funny that the introduction of the vernacular into the OC, in Transylvania happened mainly because of two things: the Reformation and the Unia. The Calvinist princes of Transylvania effectively mandated the use of the vernacular in the Orthodox churches and then one of the conditions of the Alba-Iulia union was that the services would be held in the vernacular language.
Of course, we only got Slavonic because of the Bulgarians, in the first place, although Latin continued to b used among the Vlachs in the Bulgarian empire up to the 12-13th century.
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« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2011, 02:00:26 PM »

Fascinating!
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« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2011, 11:44:11 PM »

Fascinating!
I just came across something you might find interesting:
Quote
To describe the wisdom and abilities of the Bey is beyond the power of man.  He has printed church-books, commentaries, &c., and prayer-books for his people, translated into their own language, from Servian which they do ot understand.
The travels of Macarius, 1652-1660 By Paul (of Aleppo, Archdeacon)
http://books.google.com/books?id=eYqEyMrnh_IC&pg=PA9&dq=%22from+Servian+which+they+do+not+understand.%22&hl=en&ei=aGVsTcnbFZTQgAe0opCLBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22from%20Servian%20which%20they%20do%20not%20understand.%22&f=false

The book records the travels of the Arab Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch to Moscow in 1652.  The Bey he is speaking of is Vasile Lupu, an Albanian who became the Romanian Prince of Moldavia through an election by the indigenous nobles against foreign rulers. Hence perhaps his sponsership of Romanian. Another sponsor was also foreign, St. Antim the Iberian, who sent up the Romanian Church press in Bucharest in 1690, printing the Romanian Gospels in 1693. In 1709 he set up on this model the first Georgian printing press in Tblisi.  The Bucharest Press also printed Greek and Arabic books, the Patrirch of Antioch receiving an Arabic press from it, which he set up in Aleppo, the first printing press in the Arab World.

On Lupu
Quote
Similarly, in 1643, Moldavian Prince Vasile Lupu has financed a religious book that was written by the Metropolitan of Moldavia, Varlaam Moţoc. The book contained 74 homilies translated from Slavonic and was titled: Carte Românească de Învăţătură (Romanian Book Teaching) and written in the Romanian language (pre limba Romeniască).[26] The foreword (Cuvânt) by Prince Lupu says that it is addressed to the Romanian nation everywhere (la toată semenția românească de pretutindeni). The book, also known as Cazania (sermon or homily) of Varlaam, was the very first printed in Moldavia and large numbers of copies spread in the neighboring provinces inhabited by Romanian speakers, like Wallachia and Transylvania.[27] During the 16th and 17th century the Hungarians of Transylvania became more and more inclined to Calvinism and in 1642 a book was translated from Hungarian in order to attract the Romanians to the belief. Upon hearing this the bishops of Wallachia and Moldavia gathered in Iași to discuss the matter and Varlaam, Metropolitan of Moldavia, wrote, in 1645, the book Răspuns la Catehismul calvinesc that was addressed to the Romanian brothers of Transylvania: "...to the Transylvanian Christians, Orthodox believers and true sons of our Holy Apostolic Church, beloved Christians and with us one Romanian nation, to all who is in Transylvania, that are with the same faith...."[28] Prince Lupu, in 1646, financed the appearance of the first code of laws in Moldavia entitled Romanian Book of Teaching (Carte românească de învăţătură de la pravilele împărăteşti şi de la alte giudeţe) or Pravila lui Vasile Lupu. The book was inspired by bizantine traditions and in 1652 a code of laws appeared in Wallachia, written by Prince Matei Basarab, virtually identical with the Moldavian one.[29]

Mitropolit Dosoftei, under Moldavian Prince Lupu, published another religious book – Dumnezaiasca Liturghie (Godly Liturgy) - that was printed in Romanian (tiparita româneste). In the introductory part, named „Word togheter to the Romanian nation” (Cuvânt depreuna catra semintia rumaneasca), Dosoftei dedicates the book to the Romanian language (acest dar limbii rumânesti) and says it was translated from Greek (de pre elineasca) into Romanian (pre limba rumâneasca).[30] Religious books written in Bessarabia however commonly used the term "Moldavian" to refer to the language. Thus a menologium printed in Chişinău in 1819 states it was translated from Slavonic to Moldavian (тълмъчиндуль де пре лимба Словенѣскъ пре чѣ Молдовенѣскъ), as does a typicon from 1821 (Сау тълмъчить Молдовенеще де пре чель Словенескь).[31][32]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_over_linguistic_and_ethnic_identity_in_Moldova#Selected_foreign_travelers_about_Moldavians

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« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2011, 12:59:49 AM »

The first Arabic printing press ever or the first amongst the Orthodox?
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« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2011, 02:31:24 AM »

ialmisry
Quote
The rights of the Abkhaz were taken away when they were taken over by the Russians too: their Church was autocephalous at the time, and not under Georgia.
You have to learn your history lessons. First of all, it was not Abkhaz people (or to be more exact Apsu or Abasg people who mostly are Muslims) who had autocephaly but Georgians. Abkhazia (when it was a kingdom) was Georgian kingdom. All of the kings of Abkhazia were Georgians. Secondly, all of the Catholicos of Abkhazia were Georgians. Thirdly it was always Georgian language and not Abkhazian language that was spoken in Abkhazia (until Russia's treacherous politics was started in the 19th century) and it was always Georgian language that was the language of Church and liturgy. Fourthly, Catholiocate of Abkhazia was the same as Catholicate of western Georgia and his official title was Catholicos Patriarch of Imereti, Odishi, Ponto-Abkhaz-Guria, Racha-Lechkhum-Svaneti, Ossetians, Dvals, and all of the North. Now, if you have any idea what Imereti, Odishi, Ponto-Abkhaz-Guria, Racha-Lechkhum-Svaneti is, probably you would not dare to make such remarks. Fifthly, the residence of Catholicos was moved to Gelati Monastery in the 16th century. I linked the info on this monastery for you so you can see what Abkhazian Catholicate was in reality. And here's the wiki link supplying minimal information but enough to determine that Catholicate of Abkhazia was purely Georgian Catholicate and mos part of it is under Georgia's territory except Abkhazia which was annexed by Russians.

Here's the list of Catholicoi of Abkhazia:

    * Nicholas (latter part of the 13th century)
    * Arsenius (c. 1390)
    * Daniel (late 14th century)
    * Joachim (1470s)
    * Stephan (1490-1516)
    * Malachia I Abashidze (1519-1540)
    * Eudemios I Chkhetidze (1557-1578)
    * Euthymius I Sakvarelidze (1578-1616)
    * Malachia II Gurieli (1616-1639)
    * Gregory I (1639)
    * Maxim I Machutasdze (1639-1657)
    * Zachary Kvariani (1657-1660)
    * Simeon I Chkhetidze (1660-1666)
    * Eudemios II Sakvarelidze (1666-1669)
    * Euthymius II Sakvarelidze (1669-1673)
    * David Nemsadze (1673-1696)
    * Gregory II Lordkipanidze (1696-1742)
    * German Tsulukidze (1742-1751)
    * Bessarion Eristavi (1751-1769)
    * Joseph Bagrationi (1769-1776)
    * Maxim II Abashidze (1776-1795)
    * Dositheus Tsereteli (1795-1814)

Now the question to you: if you really understand the differences among Georgian and Abkhazian last names could you tell me which one of these Catholicoi was Abkhazian (or Abasga/Apsu)?
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« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2011, 02:52:26 AM »

The Abkhaz, Ossetians, and several other Transcaucasian nations were Orthodox before Islam came. The cultural and ethnic suppression/absorption of the Orthodox Abkhaz by the Georgians for centuries doesn't make that right. If anything, it is a warning to us to move now to provide for the Abkhaz before Islam reclaims them completely! No wonder so many fell into Islam when they did not have their own bishops, could not pray in their own language in church, et cetera.

Ethnic Egyptians were consecrated Metropolitans of Axum for centuries and the Church of Ethiopia was kept in submission to the Patriarchate of Alexandria through this - does that make Ethiopians into Copts or the Ethiopians' calls for autocephaly in the last century somehow invalid or wrong? The situation in Abkhazia has changed and the past existence of a patriarchate in Imereti/Abkhazia is an easy way for the Church of Georgia to move on and help provide spiritual care for the Orthodox in Abkhazia without losing face. That's my 2 cents anyways...
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« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2011, 04:27:02 AM »

The Abkhaz, Ossetians, and several other Transcaucasian nations were Orthodox before Islam came. The cultural and ethnic suppression/absorption of the Orthodox Abkhaz by the Georgians for centuries doesn't make that right. If anything, it is a warning to us to move now to provide for the Abkhaz before Islam reclaims them completely! No wonder so many fell into Islam when they did not have their own bishops, could not pray in their own language in church, et cetera.
Abkhazs and Osetians could not pray in their language because they were citizens of Georgian kingdom. Besides their language is not even fit for this. When Russians started to rob and distroy Georgian Orthodox Church they tried to instill separatism in Abkhazians and Osetians (btw there was no Osetia before late comunist era but Samachablo region, totally Georgian entity) they tried to translate Divine Liturgy in Osetian language and they got a utterly blasphemous text which was ridiculed by a Russian historian. I gave you a link describing history of Georgian church during this time. Unfortunately it is in Russian. But if you know Russian it's in there and read it. Here's that link again. Also, Georgian bishops and priest tried always hard to re-convert Osetians into Christianity.

Quote
Ethnic Egyptians were consecrated Metropolitans of Axum for centuries and the Church of Ethiopia was kept in submission to the Patriarchate of Alexandria through this - does that make Ethiopians into Copts or the Ethiopians' calls for autocephaly in the last century somehow invalid or wrong? The situation in Abkhazia has changed and the past existence of a patriarchate in Imereti/Abkhazia is an easy way for the Church of Georgia to move on and help provide spiritual care for the Orthodox in Abkhazia without losing face. That's my 2 cents anyways...
Georgians are willing to do that but Abkhazians want no Georgians in that territory (with the instigation of Russians and another nation always treacherous to Georgians) which is our own territory from the time immemorial. This may sound nationalistic to you but the complete and unconditional love of Georgia by Georgians is inseparable part of being Christian. Georgian priesthood will be more than glad to provide spiritual care and need for Abkhaz people if such a wish existed on the Abkhaz side. But how can we do it when there's no desire in Abkhazians to live with us in piece?
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« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2011, 04:31:09 AM »

Besides their language is not even fit for this.

Pilate's heresy once more?
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« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2011, 05:16:12 AM »

Besides their language is not even fit for this.

Pilate's heresy once more?
I have no idea what heresy is that but I know this:
Quote
Осетины, живущие смежно с грузинами, в Горийском уезде, издавна привыкли к грузинскому богослужению и в большинстве свободно говорят по грузински. Чтобы разобщить их с Грузинами, экзархи стали вводить в богослужение в осетинские церкви (которых до 50-60) осетинский язык и на столько исказили его, что осетины возмутились и перестали было ходить в церковь. В Евангелии напр. слово «вочеловечение» было по осетински переведено кощунственно: «пирог с мясом»...
This is a quote from Russian historian on the history of Georgian Orthodox Church of 19th and early 20-th century. This Russian author (by the name Durnovo) of that time writes: Osetians who lived with Georgians have gotten used to divine services in Georgian and most of them spoke Georgian freely. In order to separate Georgians and Osetians Russian exarchs started to introduce Osetian language in their churches (50 to 60 of them) and distorted the liturgy so much that Osetians became angry and quit attending Church. In Gospels, for example, they translated the word "incarnation" so blasphemously that it sounded like "a cake with meat".

Nowadays evangelical-baptist church (who call themselves reformed orthodox, whatever that means) try to translate Gospels and Divine services in Osetian (very strange fact per se).

This way or that way there never was the Bible (except later attempts at translation) or Divine services in Osetian and Abkhazian languages. And these people always spoke good Georgian. There never was any need for translation of the Sacred Scriptures or Divine Liturgy or other services.
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« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2011, 10:02:10 AM »

The first Arabic printing press ever or the first amongst the Orthodox?
The first in the Middle East ever. The monastery presses (the Maronites soon joined, and the their Melkite coreligionists) founded the Arabic press, like the Christian Grammarians formed Modern Arabic. (like the Patriarch Jarmanus/Germanus)
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« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2011, 10:09:41 AM »

The Abkhaz, Ossetians, and several other Transcaucasian nations were Orthodox before Islam came. The cultural and ethnic suppression/absorption of the Orthodox Abkhaz by the Georgians for centuries doesn't make that right. If anything, it is a warning to us to move now to provide for the Abkhaz before Islam reclaims them completely! No wonder so many fell into Islam when they did not have their own bishops, could not pray in their own language in church, et cetera.
Abkhazs and Osetians could not pray in their language because they were citizens of Georgian kingdom. Besides their language is not even fit for this.
If not for anything else, this alone would make me doubt everything you say, as it blasphemes the Spirit Who came down on Pentacost and called our men into the Church in their own language.

It's the patronizing excuse of every phyletist who seeks to tie everyone to his tongue.
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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2011, 12:11:31 PM »

Besides their language is not even fit for this.

Pilate's heresy once more?
I have no idea what heresy is that

It's a heretical beliefs that some languages are better to worship God than others.
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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2011, 12:39:10 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't ecclesiastical Georgian as old as ecclesiastical Armenian and therefore as difficult to understand for a modern Georgian? (Much less an Ossetian who speaks Georgian.) Agreed with the phyletism comment btw - sounds like how the Russians reacted at my parish when they introduced a hymn in English back in the day - tears, refusal to go to services, fights, and all that despite the almost total loss of the younger generations to Methodism and Presbyterianism.
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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2011, 01:03:43 PM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't ecclesiastical Georgian as old as ecclesiastical Armenian and therefore as difficult to understand for a modern Georgian? (Much less an Ossetian who speaks Georgian.) Agreed with the phyletism comment btw - sounds like how the Russians reacted at my parish when they introduced a hymn in English back in the day - tears, refusal to go to services, fights, and all that despite the almost total loss of the younger generations to Methodism and Presbyterianism.
I don't know Georgian, but yes, I've been told that do that Classical Georgian is quite different.

Btw, these maybe useful for discussion:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/fullMaps_Sa.nsf/0/D4D8128A14E2A02785256A23004B53ED/$File/ethnic_caucus.gif?OpenElement

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/ethnocaucasus.jpg

http://javakhk1915-23.com/files/Caucasus-Anatolia-Iran-ethnic.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fa/6/62/Ossetian.jpeg

http://javakhk1915-23.com/files/Caucasus-Anatolia-Iran-ethnic.jpg


http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/caucasus/index.html
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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2011, 01:35:13 PM »

ialmisry
Quote
The rights of the Abkhaz were taken away when they were taken over by the Russians too: their Church was autocephalous at the time, and not under Georgia.
You have to learn your history lessons. First of all, it was not Abkhaz people (or to be more exact Apsu or Abasg people who mostly are Muslims) who had autocephaly but Georgians. Abkhazia (when it was a kingdom) was Georgian kingdom. All of the kings of Abkhazia were Georgians. Secondly, all of the Catholicos of Abkhazia were Georgians. Thirdly it was always Georgian language and not Abkhazian language that was spoken in Abkhazia (until Russia's treacherous politics was started in the 19th century) and it was always Georgian language that was the language of Church and liturgy. Fourthly, Catholiocate of Abkhazia was the same as Catholicate of western Georgia and his official title was Catholicos Patriarch of Imereti, Odishi, Ponto-Abkhaz-Guria, Racha-Lechkhum-Svaneti, Ossetians, Dvals, and all of the North. Now, if you have any idea what Imereti, Odishi, Ponto-Abkhaz-Guria, Racha-Lechkhum-Svaneti is, probably you would not dare to make such remarks. Fifthly, the residence of Catholicos was moved to Gelati Monastery in the 16th century. I linked the info on this monastery for you so you can see what Abkhazian Catholicate was in reality. And here's the wiki link supplying minimal information but enough to determine that Catholicate of Abkhazia was purely Georgian Catholicate and mos part of it is under Georgia's territory except Abkhazia which was annexed by Russians.

Here's the list of Catholicoi of Abkhazia:

    * Nicholas (latter part of the 13th century)
    * Arsenius (c. 1390)
    * Daniel (late 14th century)
    * Joachim (1470s)
    * Stephan (1490-1516)
    * Malachia I Abashidze (1519-1540)
    * Eudemios I Chkhetidze (1557-1578)
    * Euthymius I Sakvarelidze (1578-1616)
    * Malachia II Gurieli (1616-1639)
    * Gregory I (1639)
    * Maxim I Machutasdze (1639-1657)
    * Zachary Kvariani (1657-1660)
    * Simeon I Chkhetidze (1660-1666)
    * Eudemios II Sakvarelidze (1666-1669)
    * Euthymius II Sakvarelidze (1669-1673)
    * David Nemsadze (1673-1696)
    * Gregory II Lordkipanidze (1696-1742)
    * German Tsulukidze (1742-1751)
    * Bessarion Eristavi (1751-1769)
    * Joseph Bagrationi (1769-1776)
    * Maxim II Abashidze (1776-1795)
    * Dositheus Tsereteli (1795-1814)

Now the question to you: if you really understand the differences among Georgian and Abkhazian last names could you tell me which one of these Catholicoi was Abkhazian (or Abasga/Apsu)?
Btw, all this talk reminds me of what the French called "Les Évolués"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89volu%C3%A9
who adopted French, English, Portuguese, German and Italian, but no one would confuse for a Frenchman, Englishman, Portuguese, German or Italian.
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« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2011, 02:39:27 AM »

If not for anything else, this alone would make me doubt everything you say, as it blasphemes the Spirit Who came down on Pentacost and called our men into the Church in their own language.

It's the patronizing excuse of every phyletist who seeks to tie everyone to his tongue.
You mean we Georgians try to tie Russians, Greeks, All Europeans and so on to the Georgian language? Nah, I don't think so. We even did not ever tried to force either Abkhazians or Osetians into speaking Georgian language. In fact, Georgia is the only country in Caucasus (ad opposed to Armenia and Azerbaijan) who has tolerated many different nations in our Motherland. Georgia is the only country in Caucasus where from centuries ago Orthodox Christian Churches coexisted with Mosques and Synagogues. And you dare come out and say such a thing.

I think, you doubt what I say because you have been misinformed and you keep that prejudice about us on top of the fact that you have little (if any) knowledge about our history. You don't even know what Catholicate of Abkhazia meant, I said that already. Even most Anti-Georgian source wikipedia is clear on what I said and affirms it (forget for a moment my comment that those languages are not fit for Divine liturgy).

Quote
Btw, all this talk reminds me of what the French called "Les Évolués"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89volu%C3%A9
who adopted French, English, Portuguese, German and Italian, but no one would confuse for a Frenchman, Englishman, Portuguese, German or Italian.
Let's look at this. You link says:
Quote
Évolué is a French term (literally, evolved or developed) used in the colonial era to refer to native Africans and Asians who had "evolved", through education or assimilation, and accepted European values and patterns of behavior. Évolués spoke French, followed French laws, usually held white-collar jobs (although rarely higher than clerks), and lived primarily in urban areas. Such individuals were seen as the desired end product of France's assimilation policy. Évolués were treated as an elite and privileged group by the colonial administrators.
To make this wrong parallel of yours more clear explain to me, please, how are what I said and Évolué related to each other. Who is in Abkhazian/Georgian case colonist and who is native man that evolved to new culture? Are we Georgians colonist and not aboriginal population of Abkhazian land? Are Abkhazians native people who became adapted to colonist Georgia?

BTW, What do you maps have to do with all this? What are you trying to say?

kijabeboy03
Quote
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't ecclesiastical Georgian as old as ecclesiastical Armenian and therefore as difficult to understand for a modern Georgian? (Much less an Ossetian who speaks Georgian.)
Old Georgian and new Georgian are somewhat different and one needs some practice before one can get used to Old Georgian. But once you listen and read same prayers every day it becomes easy to understand one. For example, I've been reading psalms for no more than 8 months now and compared to the beginning (when I first started to read psalms and say prayers) I'm quite advanced and understand almost everything. Same should be true for Osetians (or was true until we lived in piece and every Osetian new Georgian as well as Georgians did). When one (Georgian or Osetian) attends Divine liturgy every week one gets used to Old Language easily.

Quote
Agreed with the phyletism comment btw - sounds like how the Russians reacted at my parish when they introduced a hymn in English back in the day - tears, refusal to go to services, fights, and all that despite the almost total loss of the younger generations to Methodism and Presbyterianism.
I don't see similarities. In the case I've mentioned it was Osetians themselves who protested not Georgians. And finally the attempt to conform Osetians language to Divine liturgy failed anyways.

Besides it was Georgian priesthood who always tried to bring Osetians back to Christianity whenever they returned to paganism. For example, in the 1840s Georgian priesthood working in Russia asked empress Elizabeth of Russia to send them in North Caucasus area for conversion of 200 000 Osetians. A commission ("Spiritual commission for Osetians") was created for this purpose most members of which were Georgians. Head of this commission was Georgian archimandrite Nocholoz also. After a while they changed the head of this commission and a Russian came in. Preaty soon this project was closed. During this time period Georgians converted about 8 000 Osetians on Russia's territory. Then this same commission with the same functions was rehabilitated in Georgian capital Tbilisi and another large wave of conversion of Osetians took place by Georgians again. Between 1817-1821 about 29 000 Osetian were converted to Orthodoxy and about 29 Churches were built and restored for them.

A Georgian by Name Gaioz had Russians printed some prayers in Osetian language utilizing Georgian alphabet. Same person working with an Osetian by name Gentsaurov created an alphabet for Osetians and printed first Orthodox catechism using this alphabet.

So before one starts bashing on Georgians one should read more history from reliable sources. Unfortunately it is hard to find real history in English and that is probably the source of most of the confusion. And most unfortunately we have Evil enemies who try to suppress all this type of information.
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« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2011, 04:51:13 AM »

If not for anything else, this alone would make me doubt everything you say, as it blasphemes the Spirit Who came down on Pentacost and called our men into the Church in their own language.

It's the patronizing excuse of every phyletist who seeks to tie everyone to his tongue.
You mean we Georgians try to tie Russians, Greeks, All Europeans and so on to the Georgian language? Nah, I don't think so. We even did not ever tried to force either Abkhazians or Osetians into speaking Georgian language. In fact, Georgia is the only country in Caucasus (ad opposed to Armenia and Azerbaijan) who has tolerated many different nations in our Motherland. Georgia is the only country in Caucasus where from centuries ago Orthodox Christian Churches coexisted with Mosques and Synagogues. And you dare come out and say such a thing.

Thou dost protest too much.  The mountains account for much of the "toleration."

I think, you doubt what I say because you have been misinformed and you keep that prejudice about us on top of the fact that you have little (if any) knowledge about our history.


I have little (if any) bias about your history.

You don't even know what Catholicate of Abkhazia meant,

I know what the canonical texts, the histories etc. say it meant.  What your official history means by it is obvious.

I said that already. Even most Anti-Georgian source wikipedia is clear on what I said and affirms it (forget for a moment my comment that those languages are not fit for Divine liturgy).

Oh? What does it say?

Quote
Btw, all this talk reminds me of what the French called "Les Évolués"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89volu%C3%A9
who adopted French, English, Portuguese, German and Italian, but no one would confuse for a Frenchman, Englishman, Portuguese, German or Italian.
Let's look at this. You link says:
Quote
Évolué is a French term (literally, evolved or developed) used in the colonial era to refer to native Africans and Asians who had "evolved", through education or assimilation, and accepted European values and patterns of behavior. Évolués spoke French, followed French laws, usually held white-collar jobs (although rarely higher than clerks), and lived primarily in urban areas. Such individuals were seen as the desired end product of France's assimilation policy. Évolués were treated as an elite and privileged group by the colonial administrators.
To make this wrong parallel of yours more clear explain to me, please, how are what I said and Évolué related to each other.

Your try to make Kartli out of Colchis.

Who is in Abkhazian/Georgian case colonist and who is native man that evolved to new culture? Are we Georgians colonist and not aboriginal population of Abkhazian land? Are Abkhazians native people who became adapted to colonist Georgia?
The latter, having escaped Hellenization by their former masters, the Romans.

BTW, What do you maps have to do with all this? What are you trying to say?
Not everyone in Georgia is Georgian/Kartveli.

kijabeboy03
Quote
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't ecclesiastical Georgian as old as ecclesiastical Armenian and therefore as difficult to understand for a modern Georgian? (Much less an Ossetian who speaks Georgian.)
Old Georgian and new Georgian are somewhat different and one needs some practice before one can get used to Old Georgian. But once you listen and read same prayers every day it becomes easy to understand one. For example, I've been reading psalms for no more than 8 months now and compared to the beginning (when I first started to read psalms and say prayers) I'm quite advanced and understand almost everything. Same should be true for Osetians (or was true until we lived in piece and every Osetian new Georgian as well as Georgians did). When one (Georgian or Osetian) attends Divine liturgy every week one gets used to Old Language easily.
Ossets, speaking an Iranian language, the remnant of Scythian

through the Alans


kijabeboy03
Quote
Agreed with the phyletism comment btw - sounds like how the Russians reacted at my parish when they introduced a hymn in English back in the day - tears, refusal to go to services, fights, and all that despite the almost total loss of the younger generations to Methodism and Presbyterianism.
I don't see similarities. In the case I've mentioned it was Osetians themselves who protested not Georgians. And finally the attempt to conform Osetians language to Divine liturgy failed anyways.
1) Not like you all did not help that along 2) In English they say, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

kijabeboy03Besides it was Georgian priesthood who always tried to bring Osetians back to Christianity whenever they returned to paganism. For example, in the 1840s Georgian priesthood working in Russia asked empress Elizabeth of Russia to send them in North Caucasus area for conversion of 200 000 Osetians. A commission ("Spiritual commission for Osetians") was created for this purpose most members of which were Georgians. Head of this commission was Georgian archimandrite Nocholoz also. After a while they changed the head of this commission and a Russian came in. Preaty soon this project was closed. During this time period Georgians converted about 8 000 Osetians on Russia's territory. Then this same commission with the same functions was rehabilitated in Georgian capital Tbilisi and another large wave of conversion of Osetians took place by Georgians again. Between 1817-1821 about 29 000 Osetian were converted to Orthodoxy and about 29 Churches were built and restored for them.
Praise God!

kijabeboy03A Georgian by Name Gaioz had Russians printed some prayers in Osetian language utilizing Georgian alphabet. Same person working with an Osetian by name Gentsaurov created an alphabet for Osetians and printed first Orthodox catechism using this alphabet.

So before one starts bashing on Georgians one should read more history from reliable sources. Unfortunately it is hard to find real history in English and that is probably the source of most of the confusion. And most unfortunately we have Evil enemies who try to suppress all this type of information.
I won't argue that more information in English would be nice.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 04:52:19 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2011, 05:23:56 AM »

"In fact, Georgia is the only country in Caucasus (ad opposed to Armenia and Azerbaijan) who has tolerated many different nations in our Motherland. Georgia is the only country in Caucasus where from centuries ago Orthodox Christian Churches coexisted with Mosques and Synagogues. And you dare come out and say such a thing."

I find this incredibly ironic given the ongoing resistance in Georgia by the Church to a deal with Turkey that would restore old mosques and open a new one in Georgia.
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« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2011, 04:04:23 PM »

I find this incredibly ironic given the ongoing resistance in Georgia by the Church to a deal with Turkey that would restore old mosques and open a new one in Georgia.
You are talking about "ironic"?! Who wants Mosques today? Over 85 % of population is Orthodox. The rest are atheists, different protestant denominations, little bit of Catholics and Muslims. Orthodoxy is on the rise and more and more Georgians return to Mother Church. There's more than enough Mosques in Georgia to satisfy the needs of all Muslims there. All these issues you are talking about is political and no spiritual needs are involved here. They want to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, that ain't going to happen. To destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, everybody tries to bring all types of sects and heresies (like Russians did in XIX century). We, people, more that 85 % of the population, don't want it. They (different sects) have more than enough there churches and Mosques. So, leave ours alone. It's strange that you, Orthodox person, all of a sudden are concerned about our resistance to Muslims opening or rebuilding their Mosques. This shows one more time that You have no clue about Georgia and its specifics, I'm serious about it. I doubt you desire good for the Orthodox country of Georgia.
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« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2011, 04:10:43 PM »

I actually really like Georgia :-) - I've read a decent amount of Georgian history, I've got a lot of Georgian sacred music, and I nearly moved to Georgia for work a year and a half ago. That doesn't change the fact that Muslims deserve equal rights with Orthodox in Georgia. Why should it take government permission for them to build a mosque? Does the Georgian Orthodox Church need similar permission to build a church or a monastery?
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« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2011, 04:14:26 PM »

What? Is this a political move? This is uncanonical if it is a political move
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« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2011, 05:53:32 PM »

I find this incredibly ironic given the ongoing resistance in Georgia by the Church to a deal with Turkey that would restore old mosques and open a new one in Georgia.
You are talking about "ironic"?! Who wants Mosques today? Over 85 % of population is Orthodox. The rest are atheists, different protestant denominations, little bit of Catholics and Muslims. Orthodoxy is on the rise and more and more Georgians return to Mother Church. There's more than enough Mosques in Georgia to satisfy the needs of all Muslims there. All these issues you are talking about is political and no spiritual needs are involved here. They want to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, that ain't going to happen. To destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, everybody tries to bring all types of sects and heresies (like Russians did in XIX century). .
Paranoia?
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« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2011, 01:07:09 AM »

Praise God!
Glory to The Lord, Allmighty, Glory to Him.

Quote
Quote
To make this wrong parallel of yours more clear explain to me, please, how are what I said and Évolué related to each other.
Your try to make Kartli out of Colchis.
Now you are making another irrelevant point and I do not even want to go there. Further discussion will lead too far away from the point. I apologize if I'm being rude but that's not my intention at all even if it seems that way. But if you are ready to listen I can give you information regarding Abkhazian problem, real information. Meanwhile you could look at this article and it may give you certain ideas. "Apsu" denotes those people who we now call Abkhazs. It is very important to understand that Abkhaz people do not call themselves Abkhazs but Apsus. Once you get through this point, then based on historical data and the context in which the word Abkhazeti (or Abkhazia) is used it will be easier to see reality. On that census still the statistics say a lot.

I said
Quote
Old Georgian and new Georgian are somewhat different and one needs some practice before one can get used to Old Georgian. But once you listen and read same prayers every day it becomes easy to understand one. For example, I've been reading psalms for no more than 8 months now and compared to the beginning (when I first started to read psalms and say prayers) I'm quite advanced and understand almost everything. Same should be true for Osetians (or was true until we lived in piece and every Osetian new Georgian as well as Georgians did). When one (Georgian or Osetian) attends Divine liturgy every week one gets used to Old Language easily.

Your answer is
Quote
Ossets, speaking an Iranian language, the remnant of Scythian
Are you trying to say that since Osetian people speak Iranian language they can't get used to Old Georgian? What's you point?

Quote
Quote
BTW, What do you maps have to do with all this? What are you trying to say?
Not everyone in Georgia is Georgian/Kartveli.
Thanks for the information Smiley But somehow I knew that for a long time.

Quote
Quote
Who is in Abkhazian/Georgian case colonist and who is native man that evolved to new culture? Are we Georgians colonist and not aboriginal population of Abkhazian land? Are Abkhazians native people who became adapted to colonist Georgia?
The latter, having escaped Hellenization by their former masters, the Romans.
I don't get this point either. I asked the questions and your answers aren't at all relevant to the question. Try to answer my questions please.

Quote
Quote
I said that already. Even most Anti-Georgian source wikipedia is clear on what I said and affirms it (forget for a moment my comment that those languages are not fit for Divine liturgy).

Oh? What does it say?
Here's what is says which, when translated the only possible correct way, means Abkhazia has nothing in common with Apsu people (those that nowadays misleadingly are called Abkhazs) and it is entirely Georgian entity. That's what it says.

Quote
Quote
You are talking about "ironic"?! Who wants Mosques today? Over 85 % of population is Orthodox. The rest are atheists, different protestant denominations, little bit of Catholics and Muslims. Orthodoxy is on the rise and more and more Georgians return to Mother Church. There's more than enough Mosques in Georgia to satisfy the needs of all Muslims there. All these issues you are talking about is political and no spiritual needs are involved here. They want to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, that ain't going to happen. To destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, everybody tries to bring all types of sects and heresies (like Russians did in XIX century). .
Paranoia
Thank for reminding me to take my morning pills. Do you think Sacred Scriptures lie when they say about Church going downhill and Satan trying to usurp it? Do you think Holy Fathers and Saints are not in their mind when they prophesy  that the Church will be infiltrated by evil and so on? Are these paranoic ideas? If not what's surprising in the fact that Evil one tries to spread Islam and other religions to eliminate Orthodoxy in a very Orthodox country? Or have you not heard what Atheist/Communist  regimen did to Orthodox church? I guess if I said that during communist era I would still be paranoic right? I can give you (and you can think of yourself too) multiple examples of this type of "paranoia".
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« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2011, 01:44:23 AM »

Praise God!
Glory to The Lord, Allmighty, Glory to Him.

Quote
Quote
To make this wrong parallel of yours more clear explain to me, please, how are what I said and Évolué related to each other.
Your try to make Kartli out of Colchis.
Now you are making another irrelevant point and I do not even want to go there.
Of course not: it's not irrelevant, and if one goes there, that can be seen.

Further discussion will lead too far away from the point. I apologize if I'm being rude but that's not my intention at all even if it seems that way. But if you are ready to listen I can give you information regarding Abkhazian problem, real information.
And I should take your "information" over the Abkhaz why?

Meanwhile you could look at this article and it may give you certain ideas. "Apsu" denotes those people who we now call Abkhazs. It is very important to understand that Abkhaz people do not call themselves Abkhazs but Apsus. Once you get through this point, then based on historical data and the context in which the word Abkhazeti (or Abkhazia) is used it will be easier to see reality. On that census still the statistics say a lot.

I said
Quote
Old Georgian and new Georgian are somewhat different and one needs some practice before one can get used to Old Georgian. But once you listen and read same prayers every day it becomes easy to understand one. For example, I've been reading psalms for no more than 8 months now and compared to the beginning (when I first started to read psalms and say prayers) I'm quite advanced and understand almost everything. Same should be true for Osetians (or was true until we lived in piece and every Osetian new Georgian as well as Georgians did). When one (Georgian or Osetian) attends Divine liturgy every week one gets used to Old Language easily.

Your answer is
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Ossets, speaking an Iranian language, the remnant of Scythian
Are you trying to say that since Osetian people speak Iranian language they can't get used to Old Georgian? What's you point?
I'm saying that they are obviously not ethnic Georgian, so why should they need or want to get used to Old, or for that matter moder, Georgian?

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Quote
BTW, What do you maps have to do with all this? What are you trying to say?
Not everyone in Georgia is Georgian/Kartveli.
Thanks for the information Smiley But somehow I knew that for a long time.
The question is are you trying to change that stubborn fact.

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Who is in Abkhazian/Georgian case colonist and who is native man that evolved to new culture? Are we Georgians colonist and not aboriginal population of Abkhazian land? Are Abkhazians native people who became adapted to colonist Georgia?
The latter, having escaped Hellenization by their former masters, the Romans.
I don't get this point either. I asked the questions and your answers aren't at all relevant to the question. Try to answer my questions please.
I have answered. That you do not like the ansswer doesn't change that.

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I said that already. Even most Anti-Georgian source wikipedia is clear on what I said and affirms it (forget for a moment my comment that those languages are not fit for Divine liturgy).

And since any source that says any language is unfit for Divine Liturgy is just hissing at the Descent of the Holy Spirit at the Birth of the Church, anything that source says on that score should be ignored.

Oh? What does it say?
Here's what is says which, when translated the only possible correct way, means Abkhazia has nothing in common with Apsu people (those that nowadays misleadingly are called Abkhazs) and it is entirely Georgian entity. That's what it says.
Your source says:
Quote
The problem of the Abkhazian Kingdom, particularly the questions of the nature of its ruling family and its ethnic composition, is a main point of controversy between modern Georgian and Abkhaz scholars. This can be largely explained by the scarcity of primary sources on these issues. Most Abkhaz historians claim the kingdom was formed as a result of the consolidation of the early Abkhaz tribes that enabled them to extend their dominance over the neighboring areas. This is objected on the side of the Georgian historians, some of them claiming that the kingdom was completely Georgian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Abkhazia
We definitely know that it was NOTcompletely Georgian/Kartlavi

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You are talking about "ironic"?! Who wants Mosques today? Over 85 % of population is Orthodox. The rest are atheists, different protestant denominations, little bit of Catholics and Muslims. Orthodoxy is on the rise and more and more Georgians return to Mother Church. There's more than enough Mosques in Georgia to satisfy the needs of all Muslims there. All these issues you are talking about is political and no spiritual needs are involved here. They want to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, that ain't going to happen. To destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia, everybody tries to bring all types of sects and heresies (like Russians did in XIX century). .
Paranoia
Thank for reminding me to take my morning pills. Do you think Sacred Scriptures lie when they say about Church going downhill and Satan trying to usurp it? Do you think Holy Fathers and Saints are not in their mind when they prophesy  that the Church will be infiltrated by evil and so on? Are these paranoic ideas? If not what's surprising in the fact that Evil one tries to spread Islam and other religions to eliminate Orthodoxy in a very Orthodox country? Or have you not heard what Atheist/Communist  regimen did to Orthodox church? I guess if I said that during communist era I would still be paranoic right? I can give you (and you can think of yourself too) multiple examples of this type of "paranoia".
I know that Georgia =/= The Church.
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« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2011, 02:13:00 PM »

I know that Georgia =/= The Church.
Another attempt to put you word into my mouth. I never said that Georgia=Church. I said the Evil is trying to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia by spreading all type of sectarian and unorthodox religions to which your response was I was paranoic. Georgia has been orthodox country for centuries. Guess what? Orthodoxy has been state religion in Georgia for centuries. I know you have hard time to understand what state religion means but there exists such a term and it's reality for Georgia.

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The problem of the Abkhazian Kingdom, particularly the questions of the nature of its ruling family and its ethnic composition, is a main point of controversy between modern Georgian and Abkhaz scholars. This can be largely explained by the scarcity of primary sources on these issues. Most Abkhaz historians claim the kingdom was formed as a result of the consolidation of the early Abkhaz tribes that enabled them to extend their dominance over the neighboring areas. This is objected on the side of the Georgian historians, some of them claiming that the kingdom was completely Georgian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Abkhazia
We definitely know that it was NOTcompletely Georgian/Kartlavi
No you don't know definitely. Show me historical writings (I asked you before not to rely on wiki as historical source) that definitely shows Abkhazia was not completely Georgian and I'll show you definitely by presenting historical sources from eastern and western writers that "Abkhazia" was actually the term used interchangeably with the term "Georgia". Your word "definitely" is false opinion and you can't use it and call it scientific as such. Show me the ethnographic data; Show me, please, I bag you, the Abkhazian eponym's analysis that at list remotely "proves" your point.

The term Abkhazia changed its meaning after the end of XIX century to denote Apsu people which did not even call themselves as Abkhazians. Apsus are tribes that most likely entered and dwelled  Georgian regions in XVI to XVII century.

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I have answered. That you do not like the ansswer doesn't change that.
Your answer was not relevant to my questions. Georgians (different Qartvelian tribes like Kolchis, Svans, Megrels, Lazis, Chanis) have been aboriginal tribes in area currently called Abkhazia since the beginning. Apsus came there late. And then you bring you "Evolue" notion here which does not fit at all. We are aboriginal and Apsus are late-comers. So who is in this "Evolue" concept colonist and who is local people that adapted to to colonist's culture and language?

Quote
I'm saying that they are obviously not ethnic Georgian, so why should they need or want to get used to Old, or for that matter moder, Georgian?
Really? So, what language they hear now in the Churches? Old Slavnoic. Are Osetians/Abkhazians that good to understand old Slavnoic when Russians have the problems themselves? After all even if they heard new Russian in the Church it would be still not their mother language. Will you protest this fact as fervently as you protest them praying in old Georgian? I doubt. And you must now that it is never going to happen (even if they are under Russia's "protection")  - they will never hear in the Church their native language. In practice that "problem" (to hear the Liturgy in native language) is completely artificial and forced problem.
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« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2011, 03:32:57 PM »

I personally would protest Slavonic too, but I can't speak for ialmasry :-). I'm sure that as Abkhaz and Ossetian-language service books are published that will change. After all, in the Church of Rus' Aleut (Russian Far East), Chinese (Harbin parish), English (the UK, North America, Australia), French (France, Haiti), Greek (minorities in southern Russia and the eastern USA), Japanese (Japan), Romanian (Moldova and the Moldovan diaspora), Spanish (Latin America), Tatar (central Russia), and Yakut (Siberia)(and perhaps other languages?) are used in the services in addition to Slavonic.

How many languages are used in the Church of Georgia besides classical Georgian?
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« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2011, 04:06:18 PM »

I know that Georgia =/= The Church.
Another attempt to put you word into my mouth. I never said that Georgia=Church. I said the Evil is trying to destroy Orthodoxy in Georgia by spreading all type of sectarian and unorthodox religions to which your response was I was paranoic. Georgia has been orthodox country for centuries. Guess what? Orthodoxy has been state religion in Georgia for centuries. I know you have hard time to understand what state religion means but there exists such a term and it's reality for Georgia.
Why would I have a hard time to understand what state religion means?

Quote
Quote
The problem of the Abkhazian Kingdom, particularly the questions of the nature of its ruling family and its ethnic composition, is a main point of controversy between modern Georgian and Abkhaz scholars. This can be largely explained by the scarcity of primary sources on these issues. Most Abkhaz historians claim the kingdom was formed as a result of the consolidation of the early Abkhaz tribes that enabled them to extend their dominance over the neighboring areas. This is objected on the side of the Georgian historians, some of them claiming that the kingdom was completely Georgian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Abkhazia
We definitely know that it was NOTcompletely Georgian/Kartlavi
No you don't know definitely.
Yes, we do: all the sources from way back when comment on the myriad of different languages in the Caucasus.  The maps show that that hasn't changed.

Show me historical writings (I asked you before not to rely on wiki as historical source) that definitely shows Abkhazia was not completely Georgian and I'll show you definitely by presenting historical sources from eastern and western writers that "Abkhazia" was actually the term used interchangeably with the term "Georgia". Your word "definitely" is false opinion and you can't use it and call it scientific as such. Show me the ethnographic data; Show me, please, I bag you, the Abkhazian eponym's analysis that at list remotely "proves" your point.
Lord wiling, I'll return to this when I have time, but in the meantime:
http://books.google.com/books?id=qCctAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA252&dq=History+church+cyprus+Colchis+Iberia&hl=en&ei=R_NvTauBC8jXgQfok8CFAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The term Abkhazia changed its meaning after the end of XIX century to denote Apsu people which did not even call themselves as Abkhazians. Apsus are tribes that most likely entered and dwelled  Georgian regions in XVI to XVII century.

Quote
I have answered. That you do not like the ansswer doesn't change that.
Your answer was not relevant to my questions. Georgians (different Qartvelian tribes like Kolchis, Svans, Megrels, Lazis, Chanis) have been aboriginal tribes in area currently called Abkhazia since the beginning. Apsus came there late. And then you bring you "Evolue" notion here which does not fit at all. We are aboriginal and Apsus are late-comers. So who is in this "Evolue" concept colonist and who is local people that adapted to to colonist's culture and language?
You Qartvelians. I told you that.

Quote
I'm saying that they are obviously not ethnic Georgian, so why should they need or want to get used to Old, or for that matter moder, Georgian?
Really? So, what language they hear now in the Churches? Old Slavnoic. Are Osetians/Abkhazians that good to understand old Slavnoic when Russians have the problems themselves?
Ossetians is related to Old Slavonic, but if they want to replace it with Ossetian I'm all for that.

After all even if they heard new Russian in the Church it would be still not their mother language. Will you protest this fact as fervently as you protest them praying in old Georgian? I doubt. And you must now that it is never going to happen (even if they are under Russia's "protection")  - they will never hear in the Church their native language. In practice that "problem" (to hear the Liturgy in native language) is completely artificial and forced problem.

I've known Russians who lived in the days when what you say was said, and was the contemporary reality, of Georgian.  Even the great St. Tikhon of Moscow refused to recognize the resurrection of the Catholicate of Georgia.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 04:07:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2011, 04:30:03 PM »

I personally would protest Slavonic too, but I can't speak for ialmasry :-). I'm sure that as Abkhaz and Ossetian-language service books are published that will change. After all, in the Church of Rus' Aleut (Russian Far East), Chinese (Harbin parish), English (the UK, North America, Australia), French (France, Haiti), Greek (minorities in southern Russia and the eastern USA), Japanese (Japan), Romanian (Moldova and the Moldovan diaspora), Spanish (Latin America), Tatar (central Russia), and Yakut (Siberia)(and perhaps other languages?) are used in the services in addition to Slavonic.
This is not going to happen for several reasons. First, Russians won't allow this. They did not annex Georgia just because they like Abkhaz people and Abkhaz were oppressed people (in fact they were most well treated in all the autonomous republic of former Soviet Union) and Russians wanted to help these people. Russians had political agenda to divide Georgia and break away part of it, which they've done in the past already. As long as Abkhazia and Osetia is in the hands of Russia there will be no worship in their native tongue.

Second, it is absolutely illegal for Abkhazians (or Apsus more correctly) to have their own Church. No, No. We will not allow that. Georgians can definitely allow and even help Abkhazs to have liturgical text translated in their language and have worship in their language but in no case we will allow them to have independent Church.

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How many languages are used in the Church of Georgia besides classical Georgian?
Just one language, old Georgian. I have heard Russian in some Churches alongside Georgian (in perishes where Russian population is also significant). And I would think some Churches could have services in Russian (I'm not sure about this but it's easy to find out).
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« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2011, 04:32:48 PM »

So even though the Church of Georgia has a standing and apparently rather firm policy in favor of classical Georgian and hasn't allowed the introduction of Ossetian or Abkhaz in the past, it will now that nationalistic tensions are high? I think the Russians will prove you wrong. And if not them, then the Old Calendrists currently caring for the Orthodox in Ossetia.

And I think you mean Slavonic - I've only heard of one parish in the former USSR that uses Russian in the services (All Saints in Moscow).
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« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2011, 06:30:49 PM »

Quote
Quote
The problem of the Abkhazian Kingdom, particularly the questions of the nature of its ruling family and its ethnic composition, is a main point of controversy between modern Georgian and Abkhaz scholars. This can be largely explained by the scarcity of primary sources on these issues. Most Abkhaz historians claim the kingdom was formed as a result of the consolidation of the early Abkhaz tribes that enabled them to extend their dominance over the neighboring areas. This is objected on the side of the Georgian historians, some of them claiming that the kingdom was completely Georgian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Abkhazia
We definitely know that it was NOTcompletely Georgian/Kartlavi
No you don't know definitely.
Yes, we do: all the sources from way back when comment on the myriad of different languages in the Caucasus.  The maps show that that hasn't changed.
You can't even see the difference between analysis and the data. How can you argue at all? You are giving me some type of analysis of a certain person not what I asked. Give me the source, historical source (name authors, their writings and so on) which shows that Apsu was aboriginal tribe of Abkhazia and Georgian tribes (Kolchis, Chanis, Lazis, Megrelis, Svanis, Mushkis and so on) were not. Meanwhile I will start giving you evidence of the fact that Abkhazia stand for Georgia (either eastern Georgia or sometimes some foreign writers meant hole Georgia when they spoke of Abkhazia). I will post data on these later today.

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Show me historical writings (I asked you before not to rely on wiki as historical source) that definitely shows Abkhazia was not completely Georgian and I'll show you definitely by presenting historical sources from eastern and western writers that "Abkhazia" was actually the term used interchangeably with the term "Georgia". Your word "definitely" is false opinion and you can't use it and call it scientific as such. Show me the ethnographic data; Show me, please, I bag you, the Abkhazian eponym's analysis that at list remotely "proves" your point.
Lord wiling, I'll return to this when I have time, but in the meantime:
http://books.google.com/books?id=qCctAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA252&dq=History+church+cyprus+Colchis+Iberia&hl=en&ei=R_NvTauBC8jXgQfok8CFAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Yes, please return and give me something real. You show again inability to see difference between source and analysis (or narrative). The link you gave me is not a historical source, but a narrative. On top of that it's wrong narrative. It has false terms and eponyms. There's no such city as Schetha (as in "Catholicate of Schetha"). It was Catholicate of Mstkheta. Georgia has never been divided into upper Georgia and lower Georgia. There's eastern (which includes upper Kartli and lower Kartli and other regions) and western Georgia. There are other gross mistakes there (such as terribly wrong dates and wrong subordination: west was subordinate to east and not the other way round). When you present some narrative it should treat information much better than this. What is most important though is even in this erroneous source it states clearly that Abchazia was part of eastern Georgia (lower Georgia per this Author).

Quote
Quote
Georgians (different Qartvelian tribes like Kolchis, Svans, Megrels, Lazis, Chanis) have been aboriginal tribes in area currently called Abkhazia since the beginning. Apsus came there late. And then you bring you "Evolue" notion here which does not fit at all. We are aboriginal and Apsus are late-comers. So who is in this "Evolue" concept colonist and who is local people that adapted to to colonist's culture and language?
You Qartvelians. I told you that.
And what way were we, Qartvelians, colonists? Do you know what the word "Qartvelians" stand for and if you do (or think you do) could you tell me please? Also, do you know the difference between Georgian and Qartvelian? I bet you don't which is clear from your statements. And if you don't know it makes no sense from your side to even say such a thing. First let's determine what is Qartvelian and what is Georgian then go from there.

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I'm saying that they are obviously not ethnic Georgian, so why should they need or want to get used to Old, or for that matter moder, Georgian?
Really? So, what language they hear now in the Churches? Old Slavnoic. Are Osetians/Abkhazians that good to understand old Slavnoic when Russians have the problems themselves?
Ossetians is related to Old Slavonic, but if they want to replace it with Ossetian I'm all for that.
I speak Russian fluently (plus I've read old Slavonic and understand some) and I've heard Osetian which is completely unintelligible language to me. besides, I know Osetian is in the group of Iranian languages while Russian (and old Slavonic) is Slavonic group of languages. Now I hear new thing that Ossetian is related to old Slavonic. Where did you get that from?

Quote
After all even if they heard new Russian in the Church it would be still not their mother language. Will you protest this fact as fervently as you protest them praying in old Georgian? I doubt. And you must now that it is never going to happen (even if they are under Russia's "protection")  - they will never hear in the Church their native language. In practice that "problem" (to hear the Liturgy in native language) is completely artificial and forced problem.
I've known Russians who lived in the days when what you say was said, and was the contemporary reality, of Georgian.  Even the great St. Tikhon of Moscow refused to recognize the resurrection of the Catholicate of Georgia.
No saint will say such a thing about Georgia. What I'll say is going to be another paranoia for you or maybe delusion of grandeur. But I'll say this because some faithful may benefit from this. First I looked up and saw quite different thing about St. Tikhon of Moscow here:
Quote
Autocephaly must require the full agreement of the people and leadership in the territory in question, but the OCA's autocephaly only represented the agreement of a minority of Orthodox America. St. Tikhon of Moscow said this regarding the Church of Georgia, that its autocephaly must be "the universal and fully agreed upon wish of the people" (p. 49).
From the hole paragraph here it is clear that Saint meant Georgian people should decide about their own autochephaly. Knowing this only sick person can say that we (or majority of Georgians) did not want our autochephaly.

Second, Russian saints have mentioned about apocalyptic mission of Georgia. Greatest Russian saint Seraphim of Sarov said that during second coming Antichrist could not enthrone in the land of Georgia who's lot fell on the Most Holy Theotokos. I will try to find quotation on this. Another Saint of Russia Lavrenti of Chernigov had predicted many things. Many of his predictions came true already. On one occasion he was asked by a nun to get a blessing to go to georgia. This is what he answered:
Quote
Во время разрухи Батюшка благословил двум сестрам поехать в Иверскую страну. «Там бес не воссядет, гонения не будет, а в «другое время» будет незначительное, так как
Матерь Божия охраняет это место»
, — сказал Старец
Which translates into: "One time Father (Starets Lavrenti) blessed two nuns to go to the country of Iberia (or Georgia). 'There Antichrist can not put his throne and Christians will not be persecuted, but some other time there will be only minor persecution since the Theotokos guards this country' - said Starets"

Several Saintly man (or to be correct, saints, that have not been yet canonized except by Ukrainian Church) lived in Georgia at the end of 20th century, which btw we respect a lot. Among them was great ascetic father Vitali Sidorenko. He is mentioned on this page. He loved Georgia. He said such things about Georgia you can't even imagine. And he will be canonized as great Saint (I have no doubt about it - knowing how he lived)

Have you heard about Panagia Portaitisa's leaving the Holy Mount of Athos before second coming and what happens with that? Maybe you can find out from Greek monks on Athos about this. There are more things to say but I don't won't to be called crazy yet Cheesy

In short, only anti-Saint would refuse resurrection of Georgian Church autochephaly.
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« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2011, 01:31:16 PM »

The first Arabic printing press ever or the first amongst the Orthodox?
The first in the Middle East ever. The monastery presses (the Maronites soon joined, and the their Melkite coreligionists) founded the Arabic press, like the Christian Grammarians formed Modern Arabic. (like the Patriarch Jarmanus/Germanus)
On  the Arabic press set up in Romania (by the Georgian St. Antim, btw) and in Aleppo by Pat. Athanaius IV Dabbas of Antioch:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FyK99wFvySIC&pg=PA241&dq=pAUL+of+aleppo&hl=en&ei=3R9xTeOiJM7pgAfXsLBV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=pAUL%20of%20aleppo&f=false
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« Reply #95 on: March 11, 2011, 02:21:13 PM »

Russia is meddling in politics, keep the Abkhaz diocese out!
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