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Author Topic: Circumcision in Orthodoxy  (Read 13969 times) Average Rating: 0
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simplygermain
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« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2009, 11:21:16 PM »

Isn't circumcision a symbol of being bound to the Law?
You know what's funny! How we Orthodox can pull the "fulfilled law" card, when our monks and priests grow their beards and hair according to Nazarite Law.

Just a thought.
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« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2009, 11:23:22 PM »

To jump in to this LLLOVELY topic... and from a perspective I haven't heard much from, save Isa's,

Former background - BodyPiercer...Yes, I've held hundreds of the very unmentionables in my hand..*shudder*

From this angle, I saw quite a bit of wang and the men who came in with-out a circumcision... nasty, schmeggy, and smelly.




I am so glad I split this tangent off and sent it away from the forum I moderate.  Thank you, Peter, for taking it.   Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2009, 11:35:15 PM »

To jump in to this LLLOVELY topic... and from a perspective I haven't heard much from, save Isa's,

Former background - BodyPiercer...Yes, I've held hundreds of the very unmentionables in my hand..*shudder*

From this angle, I saw quite a bit of wang and the men who came in with-out a circumcision... nasty, schmeggy, and smelly.




I am so glad I split this tangent off and sent it away from the forum I moderate.  Thank you, Peter, for taking it.   Smiley
Sorry if I'm blunt guys.  Grin
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« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2009, 11:36:16 PM »

I'm just squeamish.   Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2009, 12:14:41 PM »


This has been an entertaining thread. Smiley

It brings to light for me, in a very, very real way why St. Paul argued so strongly against circumcision of Gentiles, due to just how opposed Gentiles are to the act. If circumcision had remained a requirement, Christianity would never have "taken off" like it did. (speaking from a purely historical perspective of course)

Anyways it's been enlightening to me. a bit weird to read, but enlightening. Cheesy


Edited to remove a question that was not relevant.

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« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2009, 06:38:54 PM »


This has been an entertaining thread. Smiley

It brings to light for me, in a very, very real way why St. Paul argued so strongly against circumcision of Gentiles, due to just how opposed Gentiles are to the act. If circumcision had remained a requirement, Christianity would never have "taken off" like it did. (speaking from a purely historical perspective of course)

Anyways it's been enlightening to me. a bit weird to read, but enlightening. Cheesy


Edited to remove a question that was not relevant.



Yes, it explains why there were so many "Prosylites at the Gate" before St Peter's visit to Cornelius; those who were God-fearers but had not taken the step of circumcision to completely convert. Of course, there being no such impediment for women meant their numbers in regard to conversion were much greater before pre-Christian times.
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« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2010, 07:37:02 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

Foreskin serves an important bodily function.

Removing it, as with the tonsils, wisdom teeth, and appendix, is only medically helpful if it is diseased.

Council of Jerusalem decided we are saved either way and equally saved and holy as the circumcised and followers of Moses.

Unnecessary at best, physically and psychologically harmful at worst.

Regards.
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« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2010, 07:41:14 PM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.
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« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2010, 08:42:02 PM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.


Fill us in then, 'cuz all I see is an impression, an opinion, a theory and a falsehood.
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« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2010, 01:26:08 AM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.


Fill us in then, 'cuz all I see is an impression, an opinion, a theory and a falsehood.

American hospitals don't do ritual circumcision, so it's not part of the faith, which is why the Old Testament had said to do it.

It's like hair- advantages and disadvantages. People have different opinions, so it's my opinion that it's best if each person could decide if he wants to have it done.

Regards.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:36:37 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2010, 10:01:40 AM »

To bring a little more medical information into the discussion on if it is bad, and some awareness and knowledge to assist those who assert it is good---

http://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death-from-circumcision.html

Please observe your sons closely.
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« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2010, 11:18:15 AM »

Quote
Males must be circumcised: it gives them more "personality". Not so for the womenz.


Should I take this rather comical image as a tacit admission that my point is correct?  Grin
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« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2010, 09:21:37 PM »

This thread makes my wee wee hurt.
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« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »

This thread makes my wee wee hurt.
TMI, dude, TMI. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2010, 07:47:01 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2010, 07:55:53 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."

There is more than one kind of education, and by investing in one kind, you are closing doors regarding another kind. Here's a song about education that you might want to consider (though admittedly, in the case of that song, the boy was going to get an education regardless of what his grande teton looked like... but maybe your son will not be so fortunate!).
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2010, 08:00:09 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."

There is more than one kind of education, and by investing in one kind, you are closing doors regarding another kind. Here's a song about education that you might want to consider (though admittedly, in the case of that song, the boy was going to get an education regardless of what his grande teton looked like... but maybe your son will not be so fortunate!).

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2010, 08:05:59 PM »

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh Embarrassed  Cheesy lol, sorry about that...

EDIT--fwiw, I was half joking with my post... I don't typically get my philosophical positions from garth brooks songs, or consider them to be solid reference material to prove my points Grin
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2010, 08:10:41 PM »

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh Embarrassed  Cheesy lol, sorry about that...

EDIT--fwiw, I was half joking with my post... I don't typically get my philosophical positions from garth brooks songs, or consider them to be solid reference material to prove my points Grin

Dude, that song Rodeo changed my life.
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« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2010, 10:57:42 AM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
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« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2010, 01:01:25 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

In the US, they do not demand it on the grounds of religious "unleanness" as meant here, rather they do it for quackery-medical reasons.

However, Copts do it for religious reasons, so from that perspective they are doing it sinfully.

However-however, it could be technically possible for religious reasons as per Paul's letter that Jewish Christians may/should do it.
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« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »

[From the Philokalia:]

As pointed out innumerable times in Orthodox internet fora, the Philokalia is not something to be quoted to score points in an argument. It is a text that ought to be read only by people under the guidance of a spiritual father and is not a general resource for Orthodox belief.
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« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2010, 01:48:40 PM »

[From the Philokalia:]

As pointed out innumerable times in Orthodox internet fora, the Philokalia is not something to be quoted to score points in an argument. It is a text that ought to be read only by people under the guidance of a spiritual father and is not a general resource for Orthodox belief.

Even if it was, though, it doesn't show that US circumcisions for imagined medical benefits are sinful.
Plus, Paul's letters saying that Jews can continue circumcision would trump the Ph.

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« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2010, 02:36:14 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.
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« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2010, 05:23:34 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.

Oh come on!  We all know that the only reason Jewish men are circumcised is because Jewish women will not take anything that is not 20% off.
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« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2010, 10:25:06 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.

Oh come on!  We all know that the only reason Jewish men are circumcised is because Jewish women will not take anything that is not 20% off.

 Shocked Wow, just wow... That is just... Wow  Roll Eyes
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