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Author Topic: Circumcision in Orthodoxy  (Read 13707 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: September 15, 2009, 01:48:45 AM »

My first child is due in December, and it's a boy!  So I've been wondering, back in the Orthodox lands, do the Greek, Slavic and Arabic Eastern Orthodox Catholics usually circumcise their infant males?  I know that some of the Oriental Miaphysites do, as well as many Protestants in North America (for supposed medical reasons). 

How do the Orthodox understand circumcision?  Is it seen as being tied in with the Mosaic law, and thus frowned upon?  Is it common, as Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism?  Do people not really care either way?
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 02:03:34 AM »

There's no teaching of the Church in this matter, other than it's not necessary. You'll have to decide on the basis of your conscience.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 02:43:19 AM »

It's not practised in Europe and would be considered at least eccentric.
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 02:50:26 AM »

The Divine Liturgy of our Ethiopian Orthodox Church says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who has fulfilled the Law has already come." But interestingly, circumcision is still widely practiced by most Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. There are many Judaic customs to which Ethiopian Orthodox Christians still adhere, such as circumcision and not eating pork. But I did not have my two sons circumcised, and I would not do so if I were to have another son. In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him? Also, I think circumcision is unfortunately a profiteering racket of the medical community. When both of my sons were born, the people at the hospital just assumed that I wanted to have my sons circumcised. I had to be very adamant about telling them "NO! I do NOT want my sons circumcised!"

But I certainly don't pass judgment on those who practice circumcision, especially my Ethiopian brethren. I'm just offering you my humble opinion.

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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 03:28:27 AM »


In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Completely agree!
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 03:56:15 AM »

Circumcision under the Mosaic Law is the prefiguration of Christian baptism. Baptism is the fulfilment of the old Law with regard to those who become God's people. There is no theological reason for an Orthodox Christian to need to be circumcised.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 04:09:09 AM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 04:26:05 AM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

Well, my sons have never had any issues whatsoever with this. I also think that, "practically," there is a purpose for the foreskin. Also, the psychological security of your son has everything to do with your love, affirmation, and discipline as his father, and much less to do with physical resemblence.

My humble advice (and I am certainly no Priest), is that you as the male head of your household gently and lovingly explain to your wife why you think it's best not to have your son circumcised. Reassure her that you will take full repsonsibility for teaching your son how to clean himself in that area. (That was my wife's main concern- the cleanliness thing. But my sons have had no problems at all in regards to their hygeine and health in that area.)

But if you are really struggling with this decision, then by all means consult your Priest.

Selam
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 07:36:37 AM »

In the freedom of the Kingdom of God, I don't see any reason to impose or deny circumcision by the Church, as it is unnecessary to be a Christian. St. Paul clearly defended the uncircumcised to keep as they were called in the Faith, but never discouraged those of Jewish origins to abandon it. I think tradition was the most importante source of judgment to decide on circumcision. That's why the Ethiopians, who can legitimately claim Jewish origins through Solomon's son Menelik, have kept this tradition as well as the 1st century Judeo-Christians under the lead of Patriarch st. James, brother of Jesus. Luckily, God gave many traditions in the unity of Faith, so that we can appreciate and enjoy these differences.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 07:43:33 AM »

I'll add st. Paul's words on the subject:
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Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing: but the observance of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling in which he was called. (1 Corinthians 7:18-20)
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 09:39:50 AM »

If there's no medical reason or certain health issues, then don't even bother.

God bless your child! Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 10:25:34 AM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 12:26:50 PM »

Personally, I'm opposed to the practice.  Leave him as he is. 
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 02:42:24 PM »

In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?
Completely agree!
A medical student in my old fraternity got circumcised in his early twenties because of the medical arguments for circumcision.

So, the moral of the story is that it's 100% ok to allow him to grow to adulthood and make his own decision.
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 05:24:23 PM »


What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 05:26:25 PM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 06:39:01 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

I was circumcised thanks to my Jewish pediatrician, so was my brother.  When my nephew was born, he was also circumcised.  Ironically, his sister-in-law asked him the same question if they do this in Europe?

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.  Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 07:34:36 PM »


It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Not to a significant enough degree.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

*facepalm*
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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2009, 07:38:44 PM »


It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Not to a significant enough degree.

I don't think either side is going to convince the other here unless some sort of support pro/con is presented (i.e. links to articles about, or texts of, studies/research/etc.).
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 09:40:30 PM »


What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.

No, the covering, and you don't need it.
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 09:43:16 PM »

My first child is due in December, and it's a boy!  So I've been wondering, back in the Orthodox lands, do the Greek, Slavic and Arabic Eastern Orthodox Catholics usually circumcise their infant males?  I know that some of the Oriental Miaphysites do, as well as many Protestants in North America (for supposed medical reasons). 

How do the Orthodox understand circumcision?  Is it seen as being tied in with the Mosaic law, and thus frowned upon?  Is it common, as Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism?  Do people not really care either way?

Congratulations!  I wasn't aware you were that old.

Yes, Arabs do it.  Greeks, Slavs, Romanians, Armenians don't.
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 10:19:51 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 10:44:01 PM »


Congratulations!  I wasn't aware you were that old.

Yes, Arabs do it.  Greeks, Slavs, Romanians, Armenians don't.

We did!
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 10:54:20 PM »


What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.

No, the covering, and you don't need it.

The foreskin, while being the covering of the penis, because it envelopes the head and extends beyond it, in effect constitutes the tip of the penis, at least for those who have it.

The fact that it is not needed doesn't really mean much of anything.
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 10:58:35 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 11:05:10 PM »

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In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 11:07:43 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 11:36:48 PM »


Great pain?  Ever see one?

Yes. The pain is obvious.


Mutilating, that's a loaded term.

Mutilation is simply the intentional damaging of tissue that (long term) affects the appearance or function of the body. I don't see how circumcision does not obviously fit under this?


The nervous system myth is just that,

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann2


and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

Other than the protection and preservation of the head as a mucous membrane.
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2009, 11:57:58 PM »

Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 12:06:08 PM »

Sir Richard Burton (the explorer, not the actor) was circumcised as an adult and greatly regretted it because of a loss of sexual sensation.

I guess there's probably a way to scientifically verify that but I haven't seen it done.
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« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2009, 01:14:32 PM »


Great pain?  Ever see one?

Yes. The pain is obvious.


Mutilating, that's a loaded term.

Mutilation is simply the intentional damaging of tissue that (long term) affects the appearance or function of the body. I don't see how circumcision does not obviously fit under this?

Like ear piercing.



The nervous system myth is just that,

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann2


and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

Other than the protection and preservation of the head as a mucous membrane.

Smegma collection is not sexy.

Btw, I do recall someone finally did a study on all the Russian Jews who became circumcized after immigrating to Tel Aviv. It deflated the hysteria over the issue.
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« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2009, 01:16:08 PM »

Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  Tongue


LOL.  I'll believe it when I meet the man more worried about his hair color than his penis.....
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« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2009, 03:46:49 PM »

Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  Tongue


LOL.  I'll believe it when I meet the man more worried about his hair color than his penis.....
That is, if the man has any hair left to color.
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« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2009, 03:49:08 PM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick
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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2009, 06:22:32 PM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Right (I don't know why he didn't see it either), which brings us back to the best point in the thread - don't force it, don't hate it.
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« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ had a significantly more legitimate reason for being circumcised than pretty much anyone on this thread would have.
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« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2009, 09:03:40 PM »

Quote

Right (I don't know why he didn't see it either), which brings us back to the best point in the thread - don't force it, don't hate it.

I don't hate those that do it, but I do hate the act itself. Not only is there no benefit, but there is much room for harm. It removes highly sensory tissue, causes pain and stress, can lead to complications including death. Why do this for something that is a cosmetic issue?
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2009, 10:24:27 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

I disagree.  And I have one.
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« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2009, 10:41:21 PM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?



Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ intended to fulfill the Law.  We do not have that obligation.
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« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2009, 10:56:40 PM »

Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

I disagree.  And I have one.

That's nice. Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2009, 11:10:55 AM »


All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?



Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ intended to fulfill the Law.  We do not have that obligation.

You're missing the point here. It wasn't to say that we are required to immitate him I said, "It is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised". Its implying that there is precedent for circumcising a child, not saying its the correct decision, just showing that there is a precedent for it.

-Nick
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« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2009, 11:27:03 AM »

The Divine Liturgy of our Ethiopian Orthodox Church says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who has fulfilled the Law has already come." But interestingly, circumcision is still widely practiced by most Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. There are many Judaic customs to which Ethiopian Orthodox Christians still adhere, such as circumcision and not eating pork. But I did not have my two sons circumcised, and I would not do so if I were to have another son. In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him? Also, I think circumcision is unfortunately a profiteering racket of the medical community. When both of my sons were born, the people at the hospital just assumed that I wanted to have my sons circumcised. I had to be very adamant about telling them "NO! I do NOT want my sons circumcised!"

But I certainly don't pass judgment on those who practice circumcision, especially my Ethiopian brethren. I'm just offering you my humble opinion.

I remember an Ethiopian priest saying that it was acceptable as a cultural practice, but only if it was done before Baptism, lest it be seen as a denial of Christ's fulfillment of the Law and what St. Paul says about the circumcision of the heart.
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2009, 11:40:23 AM »

YES! A thread on circumcision, oh how lovely.

Well, I'm against it...

If health's a reason to cut boys, then it's a better reason to cut girls... OH WAIT! That's illegal, how sexist of the legal system!

You say Jesus was circumcised? Well Jesus also offered sacrifices in the temple, should we do the same? I don't think so. We are the creation of God, we shouldn't mutilate our children's genitals.

20 000 out of 24 000 nerve endings... gone... and for what? Oh, and if any mother wishes to circumcise her child, SHE should be willing to get circumcised and see how SHE likes getting her genitals mutilated.

Forgive me if I may come off a little strong, but this issue gets me frustrated...
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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2009, 12:45:42 PM »

YES! A thread on circumcision, oh how lovely.

Well, I'm against it...

If health's a reason to cut boys, then it's a better reason to cut girls... OH WAIT! That's illegal, how sexist of the legal system!

You say Jesus was circumcised? Well Jesus also offered sacrifices in the temple, should we do the same? I don't think so. We are the creation of God, we shouldn't mutilate our children's genitals.

20 000 out of 24 000 nerve endings... gone... and for what? Oh, and if any mother wishes to circumcise her child, SHE should be willing to get circumcised and see how SHE likes getting her genitals mutilated.

Forgive me if I may come off a little strong, but this issue gets me frustrated...

Why would we sacrifice anything in the temple when the ultimate sacrifice has already been made on our behalf? The fact that Jesus offered sacrifices in the temple and we do not doesn't have any relevence to whether or not a child should be circumcised. Doesn't Paul Circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3?

The whole point in this thread and the idea that Cleveland points out is: If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised, you don't get circumcised. End of story. People who are vehemently one way or the other are kinda creepy, especially those who are so profusely against it.

-Nick
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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2009, 01:47:56 PM »

Why would we sacrifice anything in the temple when the ultimate sacrifice has already been made on our behalf? The fact that Jesus offered sacrifices in the temple and we do not doesn't have any relevence to whether or not a child should be circumcised. Doesn't Paul Circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3?

The whole point in this thread and the idea that Cleveland points out is: If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised, you don't get circumcised. End of story. People who are vehemently one way or the other are kinda creepy, especially those who are so profusely against it.

-Nick

Well then, you might as well be calling the Coptic church creeps since it's customary! And it's the parent's decision, not the child's, so how can you say, "If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised"?? That makes no sense. Also, if I'm against female circumcision, am I a creep?? If I was for it, I'm sure everyone would be calling me a creep. How can you call me a creep for being against circumcision man, that's offensive.

If I'm against torturing others, am I a creep??

What I meant to say about offering sacrifices, is that Jesus did it because He was a Jew, same with circumcision, and since we are Christians, there is no point to it. It should be illegal like it is with female circumcision because it is barbaric torture.
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2009, 03:32:36 PM »

Why would we sacrifice anything in the temple when the ultimate sacrifice has already been made on our behalf? The fact that Jesus offered sacrifices in the temple and we do not doesn't have any relevence to whether or not a child should be circumcised. Doesn't Paul Circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3?

The whole point in this thread and the idea that Cleveland points out is: If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised, you don't get circumcised. End of story. People who are vehemently one way or the other are kinda creepy, especially those who are so profusely against it.

-Nick

Well then, you might as well be calling the Coptic church creeps since it's customary! And it's the parent's decision, not the child's, so how can you say, "If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised"?? That makes no sense. Also, if I'm against female circumcision, am I a creep?? If I was for it, I'm sure everyone would be calling me a creep. How can you call me a creep for being against circumcision man, that's offensive.

If I'm against torturing others, am I a creep??

What I meant to say about offering sacrifices, is that Jesus did it because He was a Jew, same with circumcision, and since we are Christians, there is no point to it. It should be illegal like it is with female circumcision because it is barbaric torture.

From your post on this subject I do indeed think you are a creep. What makes it creepy is that you're so against it you won't even bother to listen to reason on why people would support it and do it. And since you're so caught up in the semantics of my post rather than the ideas, I'll fix it for you.

If you want your child to be circumcised, they can be circumcised. If you don't want your child to be circumcised, then they aren't circumcised. Why does it have to be circumcision is wrong and no one should ever do it? That, my friend, is the insult.

-Nick
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« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2009, 12:54:52 PM »

From your post on this subject I do indeed think you are a creep. What makes it creepy is that you're so against it you won't even bother to listen to reason on why people would support it and do it. And since you're so caught up in the semantics of my post rather than the ideas, I'll fix it for you.

If you want your child to be circumcised, they can be circumcised. If you don't want your child to be circumcised, then they aren't circumcised. Why does it have to be circumcision is wrong and no one should ever do it? That, my friend, is the insult.

-Nick
Okay, let's refrain from the insults here, you don't need to call me a creep, that's not Christian behavior. Also, you assume I'm stubborn, when I'm willing to hear what you have to say (although you have said nothing so far), but the matter is simple, there are no benefits to circumcision.

Quote
Why does it have to be circumcision is wrong and no one should ever do it? That, my friend, is the insult.
Listen, female circumcision is illegal, are you saying the majority of countries around the world are creeps, as well as the Coptic church, and their actions are insulting? It is illegal for a reason, but you are unwilling to listen to what I have to say. Answer me this: why is female circumcision illegal when it is more beneficial then male circumcision?

Quote
If you want your child to be circumcised, they can be circumcised. If you don't want your child to be circumcised, then they aren't circumcised.
It is the child's choice, not the parents.

Also, please give me your reasons for supporting male circumcision.
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« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2009, 01:24:50 PM »

Answer me this: why is female circumcision illegal when it is more beneficial then male circumcision?

To answer the question, I think it's necessary for you to prove the underlying premise (i.e. that female circumcision is more beneficial than its male counterpart).

It is the child's choice, not the parents.

What a cop-out.  Parents make hundreds of other decisions that affect their children more than circumcision - it only draws the attention because (a) it's cosmetic and plainly obvious, and (b) most of us are in some ways hedonists.  But parents make decisions about dexterity, language, educational progress, physical fitness, diet, and in many ways (knowingly or unknowingly) about personality and identity.  Tell me which one of those aspects is less important than circumcision...
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« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2009, 01:25:59 PM »

Also, please give me your reasons for supporting male circumcision.

His position isn't one of supporting or not supporting, but rather live and let live - don't forbid it, don't mandate it.
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« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2009, 01:32:27 PM »

Since when is female circumcision "more beneficial" than male circumcision??  Undecided This is something I've never heard of in all my life.
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« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2009, 01:39:21 PM »

YES! A thread on circumcision, oh how lovely.

Well, I'm against it...

If health's a reason to cut boys, then it's a better reason to cut girls... OH WAIT! That's illegal, how sexist of the legal system!

You say Jesus was circumcised? Well Jesus also offered sacrifices in the temple, should we do the same? I don't think so. We are the creation of God, we shouldn't mutilate our children's genitals.

20 000 out of 24 000 nerve endings... gone... and for what? Oh, and if any mother wishes to circumcise her child, SHE should be willing to get circumcised and see how SHE likes getting her genitals mutilated.

Forgive me if I may come off a little strong, but this issue gets me frustrated...

Yes, all those claimed nerve endings. The evidence doesn't support the claim.  Circumcision (male that is) doesn't normally cause sexual disfunction, in many cases it is done to solve it.  Female circumcision causes sexual disfunction, amongst a host of other problems.

I was willing to get circumcized and saw how I like it, and both my sons have the same.
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« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2009, 02:04:57 PM »

Circumcision (male that is) doesn't normally cause sexual disfunction, in many cases it is done to solve it.  Female circumcision causes sexual disfunction, amongst a host of other problems.

Are you serious?? The foreskin (the part you cut off) is the most sensitive part of the male's obviously causing sexual disfunction, that's why you see people taking viagra. If anything, it causes more sexual disfunction than it does to females because you are removing much more nerve endings. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?

Quote
Since when is female circumcision "more beneficial" than male circumcision??  Undecided This is something I've never heard of in all my life.
The female _______ is dirtier, and harbors more bacteria than the uncircumcised male's. This is a fact. This is why female circumcision is more beneficial. Again, I am not supporting either male or female circumcision, but if you're giving me health as a reason to cut boys, then it is a better reason to cut girls. You guys view cutting girls as wrong, therefore male circumcision should be treated the same. This is a gender rights problem.

Quote
What a cop-out.  Parents make hundreds of other decisions that affect their children more than circumcision
Parent's are misinformed about this issue.
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« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2009, 03:11:58 PM »

Circumcision (male that is) doesn't normally cause sexual disfunction, in many cases it is done to solve it.  Female circumcision causes sexual disfunction, amongst a host of other problems.

Are you serious?? The foreskin (the part you cut off) is the most sensitive part of the male's obviously causing sexual disfunction, that's why you see people taking viagra. If anything, it causes more sexual disfunction than it does to females because you are removing much more nerve endings. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?

You are assuming facts that haven't been presented into evidence: a. the number of nerve endings, b. circumcision leads to sexual dysfunction, c. circumcision leads to ED-like impotence (since you brought up viagra).  There's nothing hard to understand about your logic (it's fairly simplistic, which is part of the problem) - but your conclusions don't follow the logic unless the premises are proven first, which you haven't done.  Bring evidence, and maybe others will assume what you already do.

Quote
Since when is female circumcision "more beneficial" than male circumcision??  Undecided This is something I've never heard of in all my life.
The female _______ is dirtier, and harbors more bacteria than the uncircumcised male's. This is a fact. This is why female circumcision is more beneficial. Again, I am not supporting either male or female circumcision, but if you're giving me health as a reason to cut boys, then it is a better reason to cut girls. You guys view cutting girls as wrong, therefore male circumcision should be treated the same. This is a gender rights problem.

Again, assuming facts not in evidence.  The rest is faulty until you bring the goods.

Quote
What a cop-out.  Parents make hundreds of other decisions that affect their children more than circumcision
Parent's are misinformed about this issue.

First of all, "parent's" does not equal "parents."  Second, whether or not parents are misinformed on the issue, you haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims, so to an outside observer you are just as misinformed as you claim parents are.
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« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2009, 03:36:38 PM »

Circumcision (male that is) doesn't normally cause sexual disfunction, in many cases it is done to solve it.  Female circumcision causes sexual disfunction, amongst a host of other problems.

Are you serious?? The foreskin (the part you cut off) is the most sensitive part of the male's obviously causing sexual disfunction, that's why you see people taking viagra. If anything, it causes more sexual disfunction than it does to females because you are removing much more nerve endings. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?


Sorry, Viagra doesn't work by making up for lost sensation.  It works by increasing poor blood flow, a symptom that can be caused by heart disease, diabetes, and other non-sexual problems.  I'd also like to see some evidence to back up your claims that male circumcision causes sexual dysfunction while it does not in females.  You've stated and restated that it does, but I would prefer to see some documentation, please.
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« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2009, 04:09:35 PM »

Quote
I'd also like to see some evidence to back up your claims that male circumcision causes sexual dysfunction while it does not in females.
Since when did I say it does not in females??

Alright, I'll let you guys judge for yourselves, although a simple google search on this matter will give you the same evidence:

http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/shortguide03-04.pdf
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/2007-03-19pressrelease.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/touchtest.php
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« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2009, 05:36:01 PM »

Quote
I'd also like to see some evidence to back up your claims that male circumcision causes sexual dysfunction while it does not in females.
Since when did I say it does not in females??

Alright, I'll let you guys judge for yourselves, although a simple google search on this matter will give you the same evidence:

http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/shortguide03-04.pdf
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/2007-03-19pressrelease.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/touchtest.php

Forgive me, I did say that and you did not.  You said that it causes more dysfunction than in females.  I can do a simple Google search, but my point is that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.  Thank you for your references, I will read them when I am on my home computer.
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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2009, 12:00:43 PM »

Quote
I'd also like to see some evidence to back up your claims that male circumcision causes sexual dysfunction while it does not in females.
Since when did I say it does not in females??

Alright, I'll let you guys judge for yourselves, although a simple google search on this matter will give you the same evidence:

http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/shortguide03-04.pdf
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/2007-03-19pressrelease.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/touchtest.php

I'll admit that I've merely scanned them, but I still don't see anywhere in your provided source material that says anything about female circumcision being better for women than the male counterpart is to males.

As for the rest, I'm not going to debate that there's no medical necessity for circumcision, but I think the patients' rights argument is flawed precisely because the same doctors also reject patents' rights when it comes to other procedures (I'm not going to name it here, because it will inevitably lead to a tangent) - if they were using it altruistically, it would be more evenly applied; instead, it's supporting hedonism.
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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2009, 03:07:05 PM »

How don't you guys support female circumcision? The female vagina is dirtier and harbors more bacteria than the intact penis, it makes it look much cleaner and better, and most women are still able to climax once they've had it. This is just my opinion (don't worry Salpy, I'm only comparing male and female circumcision).

Now these reasons alone should be enough, even though it's not scriptural (as well as male circumcision which is a Jewish tradition, not Christian).
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« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2009, 03:22:44 PM »

How don't you guys support female circumcision? The female vagina is dirtier and harbors more bacteria than the intact penis, it makes it look much cleaner and better, and most women are still able to climax once they've had it. This is just my opinion (don't worry Salpy, I'm only comparing male and female circumcision).

Now these reasons alone should be enough, even though it's not scriptural (as well as male circumcision which is a Jewish tradition, not Christian).

I seriously hope this is a joke, but even if so, it's in bad taste. If it's not, this has to be one of the sickest, most twisted,  and most demented things yet posted on this board...and that's saying a lot.
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« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2009, 03:29:50 PM »

I seriously hope this is a joke, but even if so, it's in bad taste. If it's not, this has to be one of the sickest, most twisted,  and most demented things yet posted on this board...and that's saying a lot.
You might as well be calling the Coptic church sick, twisted and demented for making male circumcision customary.

It's funny how many people hold a double standard of accepting male circumcision, but calling female circumcision torture. (Btw GiC, what I said was true).
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« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2009, 04:01:02 PM »

You might as well be calling the Coptic church sick, twisted and demented for making male circumcision customary.

It's funny how many people hold a double standard of accepting male circumcision, but calling female circumcision torture. (Btw GiC, what I said was true).
I hold no such double standard.  Both are barbaric and forced upon infants/youths before they are able to make a conscious decision of their own.

And what exactly is wrong with bacteria?  I'm assuming that since it is "dirty" you will be parting ways with your entire gastrointestinal tract then?
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« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2009, 04:10:32 PM »

I seriously hope this is a joke, but even if so, it's in bad taste. If it's not, this has to be one of the sickest, most twisted,  and most demented things yet posted on this board...and that's saying a lot.
You might as well be calling the Coptic church sick, twisted and demented for making male circumcision customary.

Concerning your church, you REALLY don't want me to go there, so I won't unless pushed further, and I will agree that male circumcision is a bad practice that should be abandoned, but it does not even compare to female genital mutilation. A better analogy would be cutting off the head of the penis in combination with traditional male circumcision. Hey, most men may still be able to ejaculate. Roll Eyes

Quote
It's funny how many people hold a double standard of accepting male circumcision, but calling female circumcision torture. (Btw GiC, what I said was true).

As I said, both are wrong; but with that said, the two aren't even comparable and to suggest they are would be either sheer ignorance or sociopathy.
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« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2009, 04:20:01 PM »

A better analogy would be cutting off the head of the penis in combination with traditional male circumcision.

*shudders*  I winced at that one.
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« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2009, 04:24:00 PM »

You might as well be calling the Coptic church sick, twisted and demented for making male circumcision customary.

It's funny how many people hold a double standard of accepting male circumcision, but calling female circumcision torture. (Btw GiC, what I said was true).
I hold no such double standard.  Both are barbaric and forced upon infants/youths before they are able to make a conscious decision of their own.

And what exactly is wrong with bacteria?  I'm assuming that since it is "dirty" you will be parting ways with your entire gastrointestinal tract then?

Maybe he has a disembowellment fantasy?
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« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2009, 05:32:37 PM »

What are you talking about 'going there'?? And they are comparable: the clitoral hood and foreskin are essentially the same thing... even if we stuck to a definition of female circumcision that only incorporated removal of the clitoral hood and the labia, the most people would still see this as a gross infraction of human rights if we suggested it be done to all female babies just like we do to males.

For me, this only shows how warped the cultural acceptance of male circumcision is.

Quote
Maybe he has a disembowellment fantasy?
How about you watch the language?

Quote
And what exactly is wrong with bacteria?  I'm assuming that since it is "dirty" you will be parting ways with your entire gastrointestinal tract then?
People use health reasons to justify male circumcision.
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« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2009, 05:58:25 PM »

What are you talking about 'going there'?? And they are comparable: the clitoral hood and foreskin are essentially the same thing... even if we stuck to a definition of female circumcision that only incorporated removal of the clitoral hood and the labia, the most people would still see this as a gross infraction of human rights if we suggested it be done to all female babies just like we do to males.

For me, this only shows how warped the cultural acceptance of male circumcision is.

First of all, that's not the kind of FGM that is most prevalent in Africa according to UN reports on the matter, secondly only the clitoral hood is embryonically homologous to the foreskin, the outer labia is embryonically homologous to the scrotum and the inner labia is embryonically homologous uretheal side of the penis, can we hack those off you?...wait, maybe I shouldn't ask that question, I might not like the answer. And, thirdly, one form of barbaric mutilation of an infant does not excuse another...sheesh.

Quote
Quote
Maybe he has a disembowellment fantasy?
How about you watch the language?

How about not exposing us to your sick fetishes? I'm a pretty open and tolerant guy, but I draw the line at mutilating infants' genitals.

Quote
Quote
And what exactly is wrong with bacteria?  I'm assuming that since it is "dirty" you will be parting ways with your entire gastrointestinal tract then?
People use health reasons to justify male circumcision.

The species survived just fine for millions of years without it.
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« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2009, 06:01:03 PM »

Quote
People use health reasons to justify male circumcision.
The species survived just fine for millions of years without it.

I'm not going to argue for or against circumcision.  But the species also had a fairly high infant mortality rate before the last 5,000 years, too, which has declined, and then declined again in the modern era.



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« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2009, 06:09:03 PM »

Quote
People use health reasons to justify male circumcision.
The species survived just fine for millions of years without it.

I'm not going to argue for or against circumcision.  But the species also had a fairly high infant mortality rate before the last 5,000 years, too, which has declined, and then declined again in the modern era.

But, in your honest opinion, how big of a role do you believe genital infection due to lack of circumcision played in that mortality rate?



Fixed quote tags...  - PtA
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« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2009, 06:23:18 PM »

I'm not going even give FGM the time of day. But concerning circumcision, it can be barbaric too, at least by modern standards. Case in point: there is a tribe in South Africa called the Xhosas and it is tradition for all males to be circumcized - at the age of 21. But this circumcision does not take place in a hospital but in the bush (yip the wilderness), and it's administered by a witch doctor, not a trained doctor - many deaths. And BTW this brutal "coming of age" ceremony is not optional either. There are even cases where the guy, out of respect for his family will go to a hospital to get it done by a professional doctor, but the family's doesn't accept it so they kidnap him and force to get circumcised a 2nd time. So I would classify this as MGM.
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« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2009, 06:29:09 PM »

I'm not going even give FGM the time of day. But concerning circumcision, it can be barbaric too, at least by modern standards. Case in point: there is a tribe in South Africa called the Xhosas and it is tradition for all males to be circumcized - at the age of 21. But this circumcision does not take place in a hospital but in the bush (yip the wilderness), and it's administered by a witch doctor, not a trained doctor - many deaths. So I would classify this as MGM.

Yikes...talk about a good reason to go away to college at 18 Wink
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« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2009, 06:33:25 PM »

Modified my post before I saw your reply, I forgot to mention that this ceremony is forced, even if the guy decided to get done in a hospital first!
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« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2009, 06:38:26 PM »

Modified my post before I saw your reply, I forgot to mention that this ceremony is forced, even if the guy decided to get done in a hospital first!

Then I add to my post...

...in a different country.

But also, as obviously barbaric as this is, it doesn't even compare to FGM, since in FGM the number of nerves cut through during the mutilation process is exponentially higher.
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« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2009, 07:04:19 PM »

But also, as obviously barbaric as this is, it doesn't even compare to FGM, since in FGM the number of nerves cut through during the mutilation process is exponentially higher.
Show me proof.

Quote
First of all, that's not the kind of FGM that is most prevalent in Africa according to UN reports on the matter, secondly only the clitoral hood is embryonically homologous to the foreskin, the outer labia is embryonically homologous to the scrotum and the inner labia is embryonically homologous uretheal side of the penis, can we hack those off you?
I'm afraid I have been already strapped down, assaulted, sexually molested and mutilated by circumcision as a helpless infant thanks to my parents and my church.

Quote
does not impete urinary or sexual function. The same cannot be said for FGM.
Over 2/3rds of the penile nerve sensations are lost in male circumcision, so what are you talking about sexual function?

Btw, GiC, are you a female?
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« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2009, 07:12:18 PM »

But also, as obviously barbaric as this is, it doesn't even compare to FGM, since in FGM the number of nerves cut through during the mutilation process is exponentially higher.
Show me proof.

sodr2, would you be happy to allow your wife, sister or any other female relative to undergo FGM? At least male circumcision, done in infancy, and correctly, does not impete urinary or sexual function. The same cannot be said for FGM.
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« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2009, 09:03:04 PM »

The above posts, starting with reply 57, above, were split off from the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24230.new.html#new
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« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2009, 09:30:50 PM »

I'm against both practices that I find comparable, that's all. I think I'll stop this discussion for now...
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« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2009, 01:32:40 AM »

Circumcision as it is done today in the doctor's office is a far cry from what it was in Christ's time. A jewish mohel is highly trained to perform the bris quickly and virtually without pain. I was originally against having our son circumcised due to the horrific videos of circumcisions you see no the sites listed above. We paid a mohel to circumcise our son. It is VERY fast- the cutting part was done in a matter of seconds and there was little bleeding. (literally a few drops) Our son hardly cried. He was given watered down sweetened wine on a gauze strip to suck while it was being done and he cried for only a moment- less then he did at a cranky diaper change. My husband gently held our son's feet and my father in law gave him the wine. Afterward I breastfed him and he was fine. All in all he healed in less then a week. The diaper changes were only slightly different with some vasiline and gauze placed each change for a week. He had no pain that would require so much as tylenol. Our daughter had to have her frenulum loosened at 3 months because she was born tongue tied. She cried for a good hour after that and needed pain medication for a week thereafter.

Doctors typically strap the child to a board and if they use pain medication it is an injection into the penis before they use a clamp on the penis. Circumcision amongst doctors is normally a weekend seminar unless they specialize in urology. Mohels don't strap the babies down or clamp in the same manner.

There have been recent studies (that are still a matter of debate) on how circumcision has lowered the HIV rate in Africa;

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/world/africa/28africa.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE56F7BG20090717
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« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2009, 01:38:55 AM »

I'm against both practices that I find comparable, that's all. I think I'll stop this discussion for now...
IOW, if I read you correctly, you've never advocated FGM on this thread, and those who have read you this way are simply wrong in their understanding of you.  If anything, you were here solely to show how inconsistent we are in our advocacy of male circumcision yet revulsion at female circumcision.  IYO, if we deem male circumcision so acceptable, why are we so horrified by female circumcision?  Or the converse: if we find female circumcision so revolting, why do we accept male circumcision?  You appear, then, to be trying to use the horror of female circumcision to persuade us to condemn the equally horrible practice of male circumcision.  Am I right?
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« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2009, 01:44:57 AM »

Males must be circumcised: it gives them more "personality". Not so for the womenz.
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« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2009, 03:38:27 AM »

I'm against both practices that I find comparable, that's all. I think I'll stop this discussion for now...
IOW, if I read you correctly, you've never advocated FGM on this thread, and those who have read you this way are simply wrong in their understanding of you.  If anything, you were here solely to show how inconsistent we are in our advocacy of male circumcision yet revulsion at female circumcision.  IYO, if we deem male circumcision so acceptable, why are we so horrified by female circumcision?  Or the converse: if we find female circumcision so revolting, why do we accept male circumcision?  You appear, then, to be trying to use the horror of female circumcision to persuade us to condemn the equally horrible practice of male circumcision.  Am I right?

I think I might be confused. Huh Undecided
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« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2009, 12:28:52 PM »

If I had a son, he would have made the decision for himself once he achieved adulthood.
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« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2009, 01:56:51 PM »

If I had a son, he would have made the decision for himself once he achieved adulthood.

As it should be.
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« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2009, 08:37:45 PM »

I'm against both practices that I find comparable, that's all. I think I'll stop this discussion for now...
IOW, if I read you correctly, you've never advocated FGM on this thread, and those who have read you this way are simply wrong in their understanding of you.  If anything, you were here solely to show how inconsistent we are in our advocacy of male circumcision yet revulsion at female circumcision.  IYO, if we deem male circumcision so acceptable, why are we so horrified by female circumcision?  Or the converse: if we find female circumcision so revolting, why do we accept male circumcision?  You appear, then, to be trying to use the horror of female circumcision to persuade us to condemn the equally horrible practice of male circumcision.  Am I right?
lol, a bit of Sigmund Freud there, but I'm against both, you're right. It's simply from the evidence I've seen that I find them comparable. The only real question I have is what religious reasons are there for male circumcision - I can't see any, and why it's customary in the Coptic Church.

It was God's will that males were circumcised before Jesus, and I have no problem with this. But in the same way, martyrs being tortured was also God's will... that doesn't make torture right.

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Males must be circumcised: it gives them more "personality". Not so for the womenz.
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« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2009, 10:16:01 PM »

If I had a son, he would have made the decision for himself once he achieved adulthood.

As it should be.

Either it is mutiliation, in which case you wouldn't want him to do it as an adult (when it is more complicated and painful), or it is not, in which case the example of Father Abraham may be followed.

In either case, whatever your foreskin status, man up and make up your mind and follow through accordingly.
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« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2009, 10:23:17 PM »

If I had a son, he would have made the decision for himself once he achieved adulthood.

As it should be.

Either it is mutiliation, in which case you wouldn't want him to do it as an adult (when it is more complicated and painful), or it is not, in which case the example of Father Abraham may be followed.

In either case, whatever your foreskin status, man up and make up your mind and follow through accordingly.

An adult should have the right to do what they want to their bodies, even to the point of mutilation, to inflict it on a child, on the other hand, is simply intolerable.
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« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2009, 10:23:50 PM »

Either it is mutiliation, in which case you wouldn't want him to do it as an adult (when it is more complicated and painful), or it is not, in which case the example of Father Abraham may be followed.

In either case, whatever your foreskin status, man up and make up your mind and follow through accordingly.
I believe it is barbaric, but if an adult wants to mutilate himself or consent to another person to mutilate them, all the power to them.

Edit:  I see GiC beat me to the punch.   Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2009, 10:46:13 PM »

If I had a son, he would have made the decision for himself once he achieved adulthood.

As it should be.

Either it is mutiliation, in which case you wouldn't want him to do it as an adult (when it is more complicated and painful), or it is not, in which case the example of Father Abraham may be followed.

In either case, whatever your foreskin status, man up and make up your mind and follow through accordingly.

An adult should have the right to do what they want to their bodies, even to the point of mutilation, to inflict it on a child, on the other hand, is simply intolerable.

Either it is mutiliation, in which case you wouldn't want him to do it as an adult (when it is more complicated and painful), or it is not, in which case the example of Father Abraham may be followed.

In either case, whatever your foreskin status, man up and make up your mind and follow through accordingly.
I believe it is barbaric, but if an adult wants to mutilate himself or consent to another person to mutilate them, all the power to them.

Edit:  I see GiC beat me to the punch.   Smiley

Since it is neither barbaric, nor mutalation in the immoral nor criminal sense, it just underlines the difference between world views, without the mealy mouthed weaseling and squirming behind "let them decide when they grow up."
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« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2009, 10:49:08 PM »

What are you talking about 'going there'?? And they are comparable: the clitoral hood and foreskin are essentially the same thing... even if we stuck to a definition of female circumcision that only incorporated removal of the clitoral hood and the labia, the most people would still see this as a gross infraction of human rights if we suggested it be done to all female babies just like we do to males.

For me, this only shows how warped the cultural acceptance of male circumcision is.

First of all, that's not the kind of FGM that is most prevalent in Africa according to UN reports on the matter, secondly only the clitoral hood is embryonically homologous to the foreskin, the outer labia is embryonically homologous to the scrotum and the inner labia is embryonically homologous uretheal side of the penis, can we hack those off you?...wait, maybe I shouldn't ask that question, I might not like the answer. And, thirdly, one form of barbaric mutilation of an infant does not excuse another...sheesh.

Quote
Quote
Maybe he has a disembowellment fantasy?
How about you watch the language?

How about not exposing us to your sick fetishes? I'm a pretty open and tolerant guy, but I draw the line at mutilating infants' genitals.

Quote
Quote
And what exactly is wrong with bacteria?  I'm assuming that since it is "dirty" you will be parting ways with your entire gastrointestinal tract then?
People use health reasons to justify male circumcision.

The species survived just fine for millions of years without it.

And you know that how?  Where is your evidence?
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« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2009, 11:03:26 PM »

Isn't circumcision a symbol of being bound to the Law?
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« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2009, 11:18:15 PM »

To jump in to this LLLOVELY topic... and from a perspective I haven't heard much from, save Isa's,

Former background - BodyPiercer...Yes, I've held hundreds of the very unmentionables in my hand..*shudder*

From this angle, I saw quite a bit of wang and the men who came in with-out a circumcision... nasty, schmeggy, and smelly.


We considered doing this with a mohel, but in the end we were blessed with girls. As most don't care if you're not a Jew and the price is slightly lower I say lop it!
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« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2009, 11:21:16 PM »

Isn't circumcision a symbol of being bound to the Law?
You know what's funny! How we Orthodox can pull the "fulfilled law" card, when our monks and priests grow their beards and hair according to Nazarite Law.

Just a thought.
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« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2009, 11:23:22 PM »

To jump in to this LLLOVELY topic... and from a perspective I haven't heard much from, save Isa's,

Former background - BodyPiercer...Yes, I've held hundreds of the very unmentionables in my hand..*shudder*

From this angle, I saw quite a bit of wang and the men who came in with-out a circumcision... nasty, schmeggy, and smelly.




I am so glad I split this tangent off and sent it away from the forum I moderate.  Thank you, Peter, for taking it.   Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: December 03, 2009, 11:35:15 PM »

To jump in to this LLLOVELY topic... and from a perspective I haven't heard much from, save Isa's,

Former background - BodyPiercer...Yes, I've held hundreds of the very unmentionables in my hand..*shudder*

From this angle, I saw quite a bit of wang and the men who came in with-out a circumcision... nasty, schmeggy, and smelly.




I am so glad I split this tangent off and sent it away from the forum I moderate.  Thank you, Peter, for taking it.   Smiley
Sorry if I'm blunt guys.  Grin
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« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2009, 11:36:16 PM »

I'm just squeamish.   Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2009, 12:14:41 PM »


This has been an entertaining thread. Smiley

It brings to light for me, in a very, very real way why St. Paul argued so strongly against circumcision of Gentiles, due to just how opposed Gentiles are to the act. If circumcision had remained a requirement, Christianity would never have "taken off" like it did. (speaking from a purely historical perspective of course)

Anyways it's been enlightening to me. a bit weird to read, but enlightening. Cheesy


Edited to remove a question that was not relevant.

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« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2009, 06:38:54 PM »


This has been an entertaining thread. Smiley

It brings to light for me, in a very, very real way why St. Paul argued so strongly against circumcision of Gentiles, due to just how opposed Gentiles are to the act. If circumcision had remained a requirement, Christianity would never have "taken off" like it did. (speaking from a purely historical perspective of course)

Anyways it's been enlightening to me. a bit weird to read, but enlightening. Cheesy


Edited to remove a question that was not relevant.



Yes, it explains why there were so many "Prosylites at the Gate" before St Peter's visit to Cornelius; those who were God-fearers but had not taken the step of circumcision to completely convert. Of course, there being no such impediment for women meant their numbers in regard to conversion were much greater before pre-Christian times.
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« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2010, 07:37:02 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

Foreskin serves an important bodily function.

Removing it, as with the tonsils, wisdom teeth, and appendix, is only medically helpful if it is diseased.

Council of Jerusalem decided we are saved either way and equally saved and holy as the circumcised and followers of Moses.

Unnecessary at best, physically and psychologically harmful at worst.

Regards.
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« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2010, 07:41:14 PM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.
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« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2010, 08:42:02 PM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.


Fill us in then, 'cuz all I see is an impression, an opinion, a theory and a falsehood.
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« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2010, 01:26:08 AM »

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Cutting off foreskin is sanitary in the same way that shaving all the hair off your body is. Just wash yourself.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

Hilarious.

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

I know.


Fill us in then, 'cuz all I see is an impression, an opinion, a theory and a falsehood.

American hospitals don't do ritual circumcision, so it's not part of the faith, which is why the Old Testament had said to do it.

It's like hair- advantages and disadvantages. People have different opinions, so it's my opinion that it's best if each person could decide if he wants to have it done.

Regards.
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« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2010, 10:01:40 AM »

To bring a little more medical information into the discussion on if it is bad, and some awareness and knowledge to assist those who assert it is good---

http://www.drmomma.org/2010/05/death-from-circumcision.html

Please observe your sons closely.
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« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2010, 11:18:15 AM »

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Males must be circumcised: it gives them more "personality". Not so for the womenz.


Should I take this rather comical image as a tacit admission that my point is correct?  Grin
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« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2010, 09:21:37 PM »

This thread makes my wee wee hurt.
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« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »

This thread makes my wee wee hurt.
TMI, dude, TMI. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2010, 07:47:01 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2010, 07:55:53 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."

There is more than one kind of education, and by investing in one kind, you are closing doors regarding another kind. Here's a song about education that you might want to consider (though admittedly, in the case of that song, the boy was going to get an education regardless of what his grande teton looked like... but maybe your son will not be so fortunate!).
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2010, 08:00:09 PM »

Most men don't have foreskin and their machinery works fine. Those that do have foreskin also have working machinery.

Point being, it really doesnt matter and since it doesnt matter I would save the 8,000 dollars and not have it done to my kid. Take that money and put it in his college fund and make a joke about it latter when he ask why his wee looks different than the ones in the medical books.

"Son, it looks different so that you could have an education."

There is more than one kind of education, and by investing in one kind, you are closing doors regarding another kind. Here's a song about education that you might want to consider (though admittedly, in the case of that song, the boy was going to get an education regardless of what his grande teton looked like... but maybe your son will not be so fortunate!).

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2010, 08:05:59 PM »

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh Embarrassed  Cheesy lol, sorry about that...

EDIT--fwiw, I was half joking with my post... I don't typically get my philosophical positions from garth brooks songs, or consider them to be solid reference material to prove my points Grin
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2010, 08:10:41 PM »

Everything after the first two sentences was not meant to be taken seriously.

Oh Embarrassed  Cheesy lol, sorry about that...

EDIT--fwiw, I was half joking with my post... I don't typically get my philosophical positions from garth brooks songs, or consider them to be solid reference material to prove my points Grin

Dude, that song Rodeo changed my life.
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« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2010, 10:57:42 AM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
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« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2010, 01:01:25 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

In the US, they do not demand it on the grounds of religious "unleanness" as meant here, rather they do it for quackery-medical reasons.

However, Copts do it for religious reasons, so from that perspective they are doing it sinfully.

However-however, it could be technically possible for religious reasons as per Paul's letter that Jewish Christians may/should do it.
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« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »

[From the Philokalia:]

As pointed out innumerable times in Orthodox internet fora, the Philokalia is not something to be quoted to score points in an argument. It is a text that ought to be read only by people under the guidance of a spiritual father and is not a general resource for Orthodox belief.
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« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2010, 01:48:40 PM »

[From the Philokalia:]

As pointed out innumerable times in Orthodox internet fora, the Philokalia is not something to be quoted to score points in an argument. It is a text that ought to be read only by people under the guidance of a spiritual father and is not a general resource for Orthodox belief.

Even if it was, though, it doesn't show that US circumcisions for imagined medical benefits are sinful.
Plus, Paul's letters saying that Jews can continue circumcision would trump the Ph.

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« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2010, 02:36:14 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.
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« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2010, 05:23:34 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.

Oh come on!  We all know that the only reason Jewish men are circumcised is because Jewish women will not take anything that is not 20% off.
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« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2010, 10:25:06 PM »

Strong words: circumcision as a sin:

Quote
"[From the Philokalia:]

42. Uncircumcision is natural. Everything that is natural is the work of divine creation and is excellent: ‘And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good’ (Gen. 1:3) But, by demanding on the grounds of uncleanness that the foreskin should be cut away by circumcision, one endeavors to amend God’s own work through human skill. This is a most blasphemous way of looking at things.

[Philokalia, Faber & Faber, vol. 2, St. Maximos the Confessor, “Fifth Century on Various Texts”, pgs. 270-271.]

....

From what we have just described, it is obvious that Orthodox males are not circumcised. This is also obvious from the tradition that has been handed down to us in the Orthodox countries of Russia, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., that they do NOT circumcise their males or females.

Circumcision has always been associated with a religion and done for religious reasons. The two religions which demand circumcision are Judaism and Islam. Certain African and Australian aboriginal tribes have it as an initiation rite as well. Christianity does not require circumcision; in fact, it looks down upon it as we have said as mutilation, and therefore a sin."
No, dumb words, since the Creator Himself both commanded and submitted to it.  I'd like to see the original context. And how did hygiene find its way into a text on prayer, particularly for monks for whom hygiene in this area isn't a particularly partical concern.

Oh come on!  We all know that the only reason Jewish men are circumcised is because Jewish women will not take anything that is not 20% off.

 Shocked Wow, just wow... That is just... Wow  Roll Eyes
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