Author Topic: Circumcision in Orthodoxy  (Read 18527 times)

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« on: September 15, 2009, 01:48:45 AM »
My first child is due in December, and it's a boy!  So I've been wondering, back in the Orthodox lands, do the Greek, Slavic and Arabic Eastern Orthodox Catholics usually circumcise their infant males?  I know that some of the Oriental Miaphysites do, as well as many Protestants in North America (for supposed medical reasons). 

How do the Orthodox understand circumcision?  Is it seen as being tied in with the Mosaic law, and thus frowned upon?  Is it common, as Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism?  Do people not really care either way?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 01:48:54 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 02:03:34 AM »
There's no teaching of the Church in this matter, other than it's not necessary. You'll have to decide on the basis of your conscience.
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Offline mike

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 02:43:19 AM »
It's not practised in Europe and would be considered at least eccentric.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 02:50:26 AM »
The Divine Liturgy of our Ethiopian Orthodox Church says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who has fulfilled the Law has already come." But interestingly, circumcision is still widely practiced by most Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. There are many Judaic customs to which Ethiopian Orthodox Christians still adhere, such as circumcision and not eating pork. But I did not have my two sons circumcised, and I would not do so if I were to have another son. In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him? Also, I think circumcision is unfortunately a profiteering racket of the medical community. When both of my sons were born, the people at the hospital just assumed that I wanted to have my sons circumcised. I had to be very adamant about telling them "NO! I do NOT want my sons circumcised!"

But I certainly don't pass judgment on those who practice circumcision, especially my Ethiopian brethren. I'm just offering you my humble opinion.

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« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 02:51:56 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 03:28:27 AM »

In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Completely agree!
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Offline LBK

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 03:56:15 AM »
Circumcision under the Mosaic Law is the prefiguration of Christian baptism. Baptism is the fulfilment of the old Law with regard to those who become God's people. There is no theological reason for an Orthodox Christian to need to be circumcised.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 04:09:09 AM »
What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 04:09:30 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 04:26:05 AM »
What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

Well, my sons have never had any issues whatsoever with this. I also think that, "practically," there is a purpose for the foreskin. Also, the psychological security of your son has everything to do with your love, affirmation, and discipline as his father, and much less to do with physical resemblence.

My humble advice (and I am certainly no Priest), is that you as the male head of your household gently and lovingly explain to your wife why you think it's best not to have your son circumcised. Reassure her that you will take full repsonsibility for teaching your son how to clean himself in that area. (That was my wife's main concern- the cleanliness thing. But my sons have had no problems at all in regards to their hygeine and health in that area.)

But if you are really struggling with this decision, then by all means consult your Priest.

Selam
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Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 07:36:37 AM »
In the freedom of the Kingdom of God, I don't see any reason to impose or deny circumcision by the Church, as it is unnecessary to be a Christian. St. Paul clearly defended the uncircumcised to keep as they were called in the Faith, but never discouraged those of Jewish origins to abandon it. I think tradition was the most importante source of judgment to decide on circumcision. That's why the Ethiopians, who can legitimately claim Jewish origins through Solomon's son Menelik, have kept this tradition as well as the 1st century Judeo-Christians under the lead of Patriarch st. James, brother of Jesus. Luckily, God gave many traditions in the unity of Faith, so that we can appreciate and enjoy these differences.

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Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 07:43:33 AM »
I'll add st. Paul's words on the subject:
Quote
Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing: but the observance of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling in which he was called. (1 Corinthians 7:18-20)
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Offline GammaRay

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 09:39:50 AM »
If there's no medical reason or certain health issues, then don't even bother.

God bless your child! :)
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 10:25:34 AM »
All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

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Offline Ionnis

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 12:26:50 PM »
Personally, I'm opposed to the practice.  Leave him as he is. 
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 02:42:24 PM »
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?
Completely agree!
A medical student in my old fraternity got circumcised in his early twenties because of the medical arguments for circumcision.

So, the moral of the story is that it's 100% ok to allow him to grow to adulthood and make his own decision.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 05:24:23 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 05:26:25 PM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?
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Offline dirtyharry667

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 06:39:01 PM »
What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security. 

Although, I was not planning on showing my son my penis, but whatever.

I was circumcised thanks to my Jewish pediatrician, so was my brother.  When my nephew was born, he was also circumcised.  Ironically, his sister-in-law asked him the same question if they do this in Europe?

I look at it this way.  Who cares if there is a theological reason or not?  It's medically proven to be more sanitary.  Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 07:34:36 PM »

It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Not to a significant enough degree.


Besides, Jews are smart and if they do it that's good enough for me.

*facepalm*
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2009, 07:38:44 PM »

It's medically proven to be more sanitary.

Not to a significant enough degree.

I don't think either side is going to convince the other here unless some sort of support pro/con is presented (i.e. links to articles about, or texts of, studies/research/etc.).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 09:40:30 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.

No, the covering, and you don't need it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 09:43:16 PM »
My first child is due in December, and it's a boy!  So I've been wondering, back in the Orthodox lands, do the Greek, Slavic and Arabic Eastern Orthodox Catholics usually circumcise their infant males?  I know that some of the Oriental Miaphysites do, as well as many Protestants in North America (for supposed medical reasons). 

How do the Orthodox understand circumcision?  Is it seen as being tied in with the Mosaic law, and thus frowned upon?  Is it common, as Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism?  Do people not really care either way?

Congratulations!  I wasn't aware you were that old.

Yes, Arabs do it.  Greeks, Slavs, Romanians, Armenians don't.
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Offline lizzyd

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 10:19:51 PM »
Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

Offline dirtyharry667

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 10:44:01 PM »

Congratulations!  I wasn't aware you were that old.

Yes, Arabs do it.  Greeks, Slavs, Romanians, Armenians don't.

We did!
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 10:54:20 PM »

What if my reasoning is practical rather than theological?  I am circumcised, and my wife is worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security.

That's some really weird reasoning to go out of one's way to cut off the tip of one's child's penis.

No, the covering, and you don't need it.

The foreskin, while being the covering of the penis, because it envelopes the head and extends beyond it, in effect constitutes the tip of the penis, at least for those who have it.

The fact that it is not needed doesn't really mean much of anything.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 10:58:35 PM »
Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 11:05:10 PM »
Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 11:07:43 PM »
Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 11:36:48 PM »

Great pain?  Ever see one?

Yes. The pain is obvious.


Mutilating, that's a loaded term.

Mutilation is simply the intentional damaging of tissue that (long term) affects the appearance or function of the body. I don't see how circumcision does not obviously fit under this?


The nervous system myth is just that,

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann2


and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

Other than the protection and preservation of the head as a mucous membrane.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2009, 11:57:58 PM »
Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  :P
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 12:06:08 PM »
Sir Richard Burton (the explorer, not the actor) was circumcised as an adult and greatly regretted it because of a loss of sexual sensation.

I guess there's probably a way to scientifically verify that but I haven't seen it done.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2009, 01:14:32 PM »

Great pain?  Ever see one?

Yes. The pain is obvious.


Mutilating, that's a loaded term.

Mutilation is simply the intentional damaging of tissue that (long term) affects the appearance or function of the body. I don't see how circumcision does not obviously fit under this?

Like ear piercing.



The nervous system myth is just that,

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann2


and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

Other than the protection and preservation of the head as a mucous membrane.

Smegma collection is not sexy.

Btw, I do recall someone finally did a study on all the Russian Jews who became circumcized after immigrating to Tel Aviv. It deflated the hysteria over the issue.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2009, 01:16:08 PM »
Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  :P


LOL.  I'll believe it when I meet the man more worried about his hair color than his penis.....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2009, 03:46:49 PM »
Your son is never going to look 100% like you, so I don't see why he would be concerned if your penises are not exactly the same. If you have brown hair and his is blonde, will you dye it to match yours?

lizzyd, thank you so much for this post. This is the most sensible and utterly irrefutable reply to the notion "worried that the son needs to look like his father for his own psychological security". What, is a lad's psychological makeup SO tied up with what his penis looks like? C'mon, already! This is the sort of stuff the "radical feminist" brigade (oyyy!) feed off.  :P


LOL.  I'll believe it when I meet the man more worried about his hair color than his penis.....
That is, if the man has any hair left to color.
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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2009, 03:49:08 PM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2009, 06:22:32 PM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Right (I don't know why he didn't see it either), which brings us back to the best point in the thread - don't force it, don't hate it.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?

Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ had a significantly more legitimate reason for being circumcised than pretty much anyone on this thread would have.
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Offline lizzyd

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2009, 09:03:40 PM »
Quote

Right (I don't know why he didn't see it either), which brings us back to the best point in the thread - don't force it, don't hate it.

I don't hate those that do it, but I do hate the act itself. Not only is there no benefit, but there is much room for harm. It removes highly sensory tissue, causes pain and stress, can lead to complications including death. Why do this for something that is a cosmetic issue?

Offline Punch

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2009, 10:24:27 PM »
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In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

I disagree.  And I have one.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Punch

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2009, 10:41:21 PM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?



Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ intended to fulfill the Law.  We do not have that obligation.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 10:41:59 PM by Punch »
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2009, 10:56:40 PM »
Quote
In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him?

Ditto. Baby boys should not be subject to a routine cosmetic surgery.

Oh? Why not?

Causing great pain to an infant, mutilating them, destroying a section of their nervous system, and leaving them lacking in a natural sexual function for the rest of their lives, for no reason of equivalent value, is simply ridiculous.

Great pain?  Ever see one? Mutilating, that's a loaded term.  The nervous system myth is just that, and the foreskin serves no natural sexual function.

I disagree.  And I have one.

That's nice. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2009, 11:10:55 AM »

All I will point out on this topic is that we celebrate the Circumcision of Christ on January 1 (or 14 depending on your calendar).

-Nick

...

How does that connect to this topic?



Christ was Circumcised, therefore it is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised, I'm sorry you couldn't connect the dots.....

-Nick

Christ intended to fulfill the Law.  We do not have that obligation.

You're missing the point here. It wasn't to say that we are required to immitate him I said, "It is perfectly acceptable to immitate him and be circumcised". Its implying that there is precedent for circumcising a child, not saying its the correct decision, just showing that there is a precedent for it.

-Nick
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2009, 11:27:03 AM »
The Divine Liturgy of our Ethiopian Orthodox Church says, "Let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for He who has fulfilled the Law has already come." But interestingly, circumcision is still widely practiced by most Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. There are many Judaic customs to which Ethiopian Orthodox Christians still adhere, such as circumcision and not eating pork. But I did not have my two sons circumcised, and I would not do so if I were to have another son. In my opinion, there is no theological or medical reason to do so. Why cause an infant such unnecessary pain? And why deprive him of part of the body with which God created him? Also, I think circumcision is unfortunately a profiteering racket of the medical community. When both of my sons were born, the people at the hospital just assumed that I wanted to have my sons circumcised. I had to be very adamant about telling them "NO! I do NOT want my sons circumcised!"

But I certainly don't pass judgment on those who practice circumcision, especially my Ethiopian brethren. I'm just offering you my humble opinion.

I remember an Ethiopian priest saying that it was acceptable as a cultural practice, but only if it was done before Baptism, lest it be seen as a denial of Christ's fulfillment of the Law and what St. Paul says about the circumcision of the heart.

Offline sodr2

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2009, 11:40:23 AM »
YES! A thread on circumcision, oh how lovely.

Well, I'm against it...

If health's a reason to cut boys, then it's a better reason to cut girls... OH WAIT! That's illegal, how sexist of the legal system!

You say Jesus was circumcised? Well Jesus also offered sacrifices in the temple, should we do the same? I don't think so. We are the creation of God, we shouldn't mutilate our children's genitals.

20 000 out of 24 000 nerve endings... gone... and for what? Oh, and if any mother wishes to circumcise her child, SHE should be willing to get circumcised and see how SHE likes getting her genitals mutilated.

Forgive me if I may come off a little strong, but this issue gets me frustrated...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 11:52:22 AM by sodr2 »
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2009, 12:45:42 PM »
YES! A thread on circumcision, oh how lovely.

Well, I'm against it...

If health's a reason to cut boys, then it's a better reason to cut girls... OH WAIT! That's illegal, how sexist of the legal system!

You say Jesus was circumcised? Well Jesus also offered sacrifices in the temple, should we do the same? I don't think so. We are the creation of God, we shouldn't mutilate our children's genitals.

20 000 out of 24 000 nerve endings... gone... and for what? Oh, and if any mother wishes to circumcise her child, SHE should be willing to get circumcised and see how SHE likes getting her genitals mutilated.

Forgive me if I may come off a little strong, but this issue gets me frustrated...

Why would we sacrifice anything in the temple when the ultimate sacrifice has already been made on our behalf? The fact that Jesus offered sacrifices in the temple and we do not doesn't have any relevence to whether or not a child should be circumcised. Doesn't Paul Circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3?

The whole point in this thread and the idea that Cleveland points out is: If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised, you don't get circumcised. End of story. People who are vehemently one way or the other are kinda creepy, especially those who are so profusely against it.

-Nick
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Offline sodr2

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Re: Circumcision in Orthodoxy
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2009, 01:47:56 PM »
Why would we sacrifice anything in the temple when the ultimate sacrifice has already been made on our behalf? The fact that Jesus offered sacrifices in the temple and we do not doesn't have any relevence to whether or not a child should be circumcised. Doesn't Paul Circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3?

The whole point in this thread and the idea that Cleveland points out is: If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised, you don't get circumcised. End of story. People who are vehemently one way or the other are kinda creepy, especially those who are so profusely against it.

-Nick

Well then, you might as well be calling the Coptic church creeps since it's customary! And it's the parent's decision, not the child's, so how can you say, "If you want to be circumcised, you can be circumcised, if you don't want to be circumcised"?? That makes no sense. Also, if I'm against female circumcision, am I a creep?? If I was for it, I'm sure everyone would be calling me a creep. How can you call me a creep for being against circumcision man, that's offensive.

If I'm against torturing others, am I a creep??

What I meant to say about offering sacrifices, is that Jesus did it because He was a Jew, same with circumcision, and since we are Christians, there is no point to it. It should be illegal like it is with female circumcision because it is barbaric torture.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 01:51:47 PM by sodr2 »
"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III