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Offline faithcmbs9

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Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« on: September 13, 2009, 03:50:09 PM »
Hi all,

I attended my first Orthodox worship service today, and although the worship service itself was nice, I found the sermon a bit disconcerting. The 9/11 attacks were broached, and although the priest did not explicitly say this, he seemed to imply that 1) Islam/Muslims are evil 2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims, and/or 3) that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass. Now, I have no problem with the idea that Christianity is the Truth and that salvation is through Christ alone, but what I was hearing sounded more like prejudice and stereotype? Is this a common Orthodox sentiment? Is this the Orthodox Church's teaching??

Thanks,
Christine
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Offline Elpidophoros

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 04:30:47 PM »
2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims,

This sounds evil.....a crypto-kalachakra-tantric-yogi with magnification/mask of an orthodox christian priest???
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 04:35:00 PM by Elpidophoros »

Offline John of the North

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 04:34:16 PM »
Hi all,

I attended my first Orthodox worship service today, and although the worship service itself was nice, I found the sermon a bit disconcerting. The 9/11 attacks were broached, and although the priest did not explicitly say this, he seemed to imply that 1) Islam/Muslims are evil 2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims, and/or 3) that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass. Now, I have no problem with the idea that Christianity is the Truth and that salvation is through Christ alone, but what I was hearing sounded more like prejudice and stereotype? Is this a common Orthodox sentiment? Is this the Orthodox Church's teaching??

Thanks,
Christine

The Orthodox Church does not codify doctrine on such matters. Although, as you now know....opinions are varied.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 04:45:36 PM »
The Orthodox Church has generally considered Islam to be a heresy given the religion's origins (c.f. St John of Damascus in his work Against Heresies).  In fact, on the feast of the Beheading of St John the Baptist, there is this hymn, which is ironic given that his feast is August 29, which on the Old Calendar falls on the civil date of September 11:

"Draw Your bow, march forward and reign, O Son of the Mother of God, subduing the Ishmaelite people that wars against us, granting victories to our Orthodox Sovereign over barbarian enemies at the prayers of the one who gave You birth, O Word of God."

Since there is no Orthodox sovereign now, the hymn is sometimes translated as:

"Draw Thy bow, and prosper and reign, O Son of the Mother of God, subduing the Muslems who wage war against us and granting victory to our Orthodox Hierarchs over all heresies, through the entreaties of Her Who gave birth to Thee, O Word of God."

(In seeking a source for this hymn for internet citation, I came across this blog, which I do not necessarily agree with in its entirety: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/09/orthodox-hymn-for-september-11th-911.html)

Islam as a religion teaches that Christ is not God, and thus by definition, is teaching something evil.  However, there are certainly many good Muslims in the world and I don't particularly like broad anti-Muslim comments nor do I personally get much traction from comparing 9/11 to previous history given the political context of the modern world which is somewhat different from those times. I work with many Muslims and count them as friends. I prefer to approach Muslims as anyone else: people in need of Christ, who can complete whatever religious sentiment they may already have.  I do not, however, think it is prejudiced to address the belief system as evil, given its anti-Christian position.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 04:46:17 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 05:34:36 PM »
Hi all,

I attended my first Orthodox worship service today, and although the worship service itself was nice, I found the sermon a bit disconcerting. The 9/11 attacks were broached, and although the priest did not explicitly say this, he seemed to imply that 1) Islam/Muslims are evil 2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims, and/or 3) that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass. Now, I have no problem with the idea that Christianity is the Truth and that salvation is through Christ alone, but what I was hearing sounded more like prejudice and stereotype? Is this a common Orthodox sentiment? Is this the Orthodox Church's teaching??

Thanks,
Christine

Although exaggerated, the priest's points as you related are mainly true. If you wish, I will supply supporting material but I cannot blame you in thinking that such thinking is prejudicial and stereotyping--after all, President Bush persisted in calling Islam a religion of peace for years (I think for reasons of state).

1. "Islam/Muslims are evil." I join Father Anastasios in treating Muslims as folks who need Jesus. However, Islam, if not evil in itself, has elements in its holy book and tradition plenty of justification for its adherents to commit evil deeds. In this instance, I am not talking about their rejection of the Christ, but actual prescriptions for evil behavior, such as murder, rape and pillage, mistreatment of women, etc. Now, should you point out that Christians are also guilty of these behaviors, I would have to point out that they so behave in spite of the Holy Bible, while the Muslims do so because of the Qoran and Muslim Holy Tradition.

2. "we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims." It would be more correct to say that Islam/Muslims have been waging war against non-Muslims since the 7th century. At the present time, millions of fanatical and extremist Muslims are waging Holy War against non-Muslims. While these millions of extremists are but a fraction of the total Muslim population, they dominate because the rest either support the extremists in their hearts or they are afraid of them.

3. "that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass." I do not know if it was punishment but it is true that many Muslims absolutely hate the West for having lost its moral compass. They are threatened by abortion, pornography, woman's liberation, gay rights, post modern ethical attitudes, and even the material success in modern societies. In accordance with their religion, their God is supposed to elevate them above all others. Since they have been a distant second to the West for over 100 years now, they are also humiliated and many fundamentalists also think that Muslims who have adapted Western ways must also be fought.

I hope that this helps put the priest's words in context. 

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 06:23:53 PM »
Hi all,

I attended my first Orthodox worship service today, and although the worship service itself was nice, I found the sermon a bit disconcerting. The 9/11 attacks were broached, and although the priest did not explicitly say this, he seemed to imply that 1) Islam/Muslims are evil 2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims, and/or 3) that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass. Now, I have no problem with the idea that Christianity is the Truth and that salvation is through Christ alone, but what I was hearing sounded more like prejudice and stereotype? Is this a common Orthodox sentiment? Is this the Orthodox Church's teaching??

Thanks,
Christine

No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam. St. Paul told us that our war is not against flesh and blood but against the evil spritual powers at work in this world. It is important to distinguish between Muslims and Islam. Muslims are people just like us, we are to love them, pray for them, minister to them, witness to them, and welcome them into our churches if they accept the true faith. Many Muslims do come to faith in Yeshua every day, the Holy Spirit is working great miracles in the Muslim world. The internet has also helped wonders in this respect, especially for those who live in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran where public missionary work is illegal. There are even Christian converts from Islam in Mecca and Medina, praise YHWH the Gospel has managed to go where it is least welcome!

But the religion of Islam is evil and arguably the most anti-Christ religion on earth, the fact that it's growing at an alarming rate in adherrance, influence and power is all the more reason for us to fight it with the "sword of the Spirit" and with prayer and fasting, like what the 30 Days Prayer Network is doing.

A really good book to read about Christian-Muslim relations in the Middle East is Secret Believers by Brother Andrew & Al Jensen. Brother Andrew, as I sure most of you know is the famous "God's Smuggler" who smuggled Bibles behind the Iron Curtain, founded Open Doors International and has ministered to the persecuted church all his life. Secret Believers is one of the best books I've ever read, and the best thing about it is that it shows Orthodox and Protestant believers labouring together for the great commission and the protection of the Church.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 06:27:33 PM by Nazarene »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 06:50:04 PM »
And the fact that they even acknowledge Jesus as a "prophet" (and what else I'm not sure) is Satan's tool of subtle trickery and sleight of hand.

Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 07:54:51 PM »
And the fact that they even acknowledge Jesus as a "prophet" (and what else I'm not sure) is Satan's tool of subtle trickery and sleight of hand.

Perhaps - couldn't it also be a way of leading them towards the truth? I know of a Muslim who converted to Christianity, who did so through her increasing interest in Jesus. At first she only thought of Him as a prophet, but she came eventually to see that what she had thought was faith in Islam was in fact a search for Christ.

I'm not saying this is true of all Muslims (nor even that it should be), but I would hesitate to see recognition of Jesus as 'Satan's tool'.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 09:37:56 PM »
I think it depends on what you understand as "anti-Muslim." She certainly is against the Islamic heresy. She certainly is not against any particular human being who shares the Islamic faith because of ignorance or deceipt by his/her tradition, family, tribe, education, etc.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 12:17:55 AM »
To the OP, the Orthodox Church and Islam have co-existed for almost 14 Centuries despite all the negative events which have occurred.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 01:39:50 AM »
^Co-existed implies that there was a harmony.  For a  great many of those 14 centuries, many Christians were enslaved, imprisoned, reduced to second class (and worse) status, conscripted, forcibly converted, executed,  etc. 
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 01:44:22 AM »
^Co-existed implies that there was a harmony. 

Stop implying.   ;)
To co-exist means to exist side by side whether there is harmony or not.

For a  great many of those 14 centuries, many Christians were enslaved, imprisoned, reduced to second class (and worse) status, conscripted, forcibly converted, executed,  etc. 

OK ... Does turning the other cheek mean anything or does Orthodoxy imply that there are no tests or challenges to the faith?

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 02:32:02 AM »
The Church certainly is not Pro-Islam by any stretch, but it sounds as if you got to listen to a political tangent rather than a spiritually edifying homily.  That is unfortunate as you are just an inquirer, but it's better to get all of the perspectives which Orthodoxy encapsulates now rather than later.  There are scared-of-everything conservatives, and there are also bleeding heart liberals, with everything in between.  Don't worry about it, not everyone is frothing at the mouth over Islam.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 03:54:50 AM »

Hi all,

I attended my first Orthodox worship service today, and although the worship service itself was nice, I found the sermon a bit disconcerting. The 9/11 attacks were broached, and although the priest did not explicitly say this, he seemed to imply that 1) Islam/Muslims are evil 2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims, and/or 3) that 9/11 was in some sense punishment for losing our(America's) moral compass. Now, I have no problem with the idea that Christianity is the Truth and that salvation is through Christ alone, but what I was hearing sounded more like prejudice and stereotype? Is this a common Orthodox sentiment? Is this the Orthodox Church's teaching??

Thanks,
Christine

Far right wing social views are quite common among EO/OO in America. Many I have met have expressed views that made me cringe, let alone whether I felt I could agree with them or not. But no, most of the right wing crap that these people take for granted and would fight you nail and tooth for as dogma are not actually established teachings of the Church.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2009, 06:56:06 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.

Bingo; this is what I was thinking when I saw the thread heading.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2009, 07:30:51 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.

Bingo; this is what I was thinking when I saw the thread heading.
I tend to think that is what many Christians of varying groups in America are. Unfortunately many clumsily express their sentiment and it is often taken out of context as personal hatred especially in many media outlets that are not Christian friendly.
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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2009, 09:27:33 AM »
I have moved this topic to the Religous Topics Forum as a better location for this discussion than in the Convert Issues Forum. Please continue the discussion.

Thomas
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 09:27:49 AM by Thomas »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2009, 07:16:36 PM »
^Co-existed implies that there was a harmony. 

Stop implying.   ;)
To co-exist means to exist side by side whether there is harmony or not.

For a  great many of those 14 centuries, many Christians were enslaved, imprisoned, reduced to second class (and worse) status, conscripted, forcibly converted, executed,  etc. 

OK ... Does turning the other cheek mean anything or does Orthodoxy imply that there are no tests or challenges to the faith?

Vow! Such a non sequitur! 

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2009, 09:59:06 PM »
^Co-existed implies that there was a harmony. 

Stop implying.   ;)
To co-exist means to exist side by side whether there is harmony or not.

For a  great many of those 14 centuries, many Christians were enslaved, imprisoned, reduced to second class (and worse) status, conscripted, forcibly converted, executed,  etc. 

OK ... Does turning the other cheek mean anything or does Orthodoxy imply that there are no tests or challenges to the faith?

Vow! Such a non sequitur! 

Where's the non sequitur?   ???  :)

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 08:38:59 AM »
^Co-existed implies that there was a harmony. 

Stop implying.   ;)
To co-exist means to exist side by side whether there is harmony or not.

For a  great many of those 14 centuries, many Christians were enslaved, imprisoned, reduced to second class (and worse) status, conscripted, forcibly converted, executed,  etc. 

OK ... Does turning the other cheek mean anything or does Orthodoxy imply that there are no tests or challenges to the faith?

Vow! Such a non sequitur! 

Where's the non sequitur?   ???  :)

The premises are apples and oranges. You seem to define co-existence as "to exist together or at the same time" (Merriam-Webster definition 1) while Scamandrius is defining it as "to live in peace with each other especially as a matter of policy" (Merriam-Webster definition 2). BTW, I found an essay on co-existence that supports definition 2. You may wish to check it out at http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/coexistence/.

So when Scamandrius attempted to provide evidence that Muslims and Christians did not live in harmony, he was proceeding logically from his valid definition of the term "coexistence." However, your counter argument did not flow from his premise, and also introduced another premise that diverges considerably from either definition. So you seem to have managed to squeeze two non sequiturs in a short space. That is why I was so impressed.  :) ;)

BTW, my definition of non sequitur comes from Wiki: "the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because the conclusion does not follow from the premise."

Offline faithcmbs9

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 11:42:26 PM »
HI all,

Just a quick question/clarification. How is "evil" being defined here when you speak of Muslims and Islam in your replies? It seems when some are saying that Islam is "evil" they mean that it is simply contrary to the Gospel and therefore cannot be anything other than evil. Whereas others seem to understand the term "evil" as meaning more of a willful disobedience to God and/or a desire to harm others intentionally. In my original question, I was thinking more of the latter, rather than the former. I think of evil more in terms of malice and cruelty, than I do in the broader sense of "missing the mark"/sinfulness.

Thanks!
Christine
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 09:38:35 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 10:29:17 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 10:30:31 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 10:47:48 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you mean when you say that 'the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not'. Surely the 'agenda' of Methodism is at least as 'premeditated' as that of Islam? From what little I know of it, I thought John Wesley and others spent quite a lot of time considering what they thought their theology should do and be?

Offline recent convert

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 10:57:14 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you mean when you say that 'the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not'. Surely the 'agenda' of Methodism is at least as 'premeditated' as that of Islam? From what little I know of it, I thought John Wesley and others spent quite a lot of time considering what they thought their theology should do and be?
Well I know of violent militarism that arose from the creeds of Arianism & Islam whereas I do not know of any from Methodism & Messianic Judaism.
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Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2009, 11:08:06 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you mean when you say that 'the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not'. Surely the 'agenda' of Methodism is at least as 'premeditated' as that of Islam? From what little I know of it, I thought John Wesley and others spent quite a lot of time considering what they thought their theology should do and be?
Well I know of violent militarism that arose from the creeds of Arianism & Islam whereas I do not know of any from Methodism & Messianic Judaism.

What has that got to do with having a 'premeditated agenda'? And how can you be sure that these things arose from creed rather than, say, culture or opportunistic religious leaders?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2009, 11:23:05 AM »
The premises are apples and oranges. You seem to define co-existence as "to exist together or at the same time" (Merriam-Webster definition 1) while Scamandrius is defining it as "to live in peace with each other especially as a matter of policy" (Merriam-Webster definition 2). BTW, I found an essay on co-existence that supports definition 2. You may wish to check it out at http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/coexistence/.

So when Scamandrius attempted to provide evidence that Muslims and Christians did not live in harmony, he was proceeding logically from his valid definition of the term "coexistence." However, your counter argument did not flow from his premise, and also introduced another premise that diverges considerably from either definition. So you seem to have managed to squeeze two non sequiturs in a short space. That is why I was so impressed.  :) ;)

BTW, my definition of non sequitur comes from Wiki: "the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because the conclusion does not follow from the premise."

The title of this thread is a non-sequitur.  Here's a mathematical proof.

Orthodox Church = Bride of Christ
Christ = Son of God
God is Love
How can Love be anti-anything?

So, the thread can be rewritten as: Is the Bride of the Son of God, who is Love, against Muslims? //QED

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
Christianity is ante-Islam. We can all agree with that.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 11:30:58 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you mean when you say that 'the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not'. Surely the 'agenda' of Methodism is at least as 'premeditated' as that of Islam? From what little I know of it, I thought John Wesley and others spent quite a lot of time considering what they thought their theology should do and be?
Well I know of violent militarism that arose from the creeds of Arianism & Islam whereas I do not know of any from Methodism & Messianic Judaism.

What has that got to do with having a 'premeditated agenda'? And how can you be sure that these things arose from creed rather than, say, culture or opportunistic religious leaders?
I believe the historical examples of Arianism & Islam were cases of thought and action that sought to eliminate Orthodox Christianity by violence if need be. Whereas an historical example like Manicheism wanted to assimilate peacefully assimilate other belief systems, a movement like Paulicianism was anti Orthodox in thought and action also. I would also like to add that I am not glorifying the conduct of all Orthodox rulers either. The emperor Justinian burned Mancheans alive en mass on boats (as noted by Harry J Magoulias in his book: Byzantine Christianity: Enmperor, Curch, & the WEst..
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 11:36:20 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2009, 11:48:52 AM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.
I am sorry but I disagree. One must discern as to what is inherently anti Orthodox like Arianism, Islam etc. vs. other Christian confession like Methodism, Messianic Judaism etc.; the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not. Of course, I am referring to overall theology, ideology etc. within anti Orthodox professions  & not the sentiments of individual followers of most probably are live & let live.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you mean when you say that 'the former have a premeditated agenda and the latter do not'. Surely the 'agenda' of Methodism is at least as 'premeditated' as that of Islam? From what little I know of it, I thought John Wesley and others spent quite a lot of time considering what they thought their theology should do and be?
Well I know of violent militarism that arose from the creeds of Arianism & Islam whereas I do not know of any from Methodism & Messianic Judaism.

What has that got to do with having a 'premeditated agenda'? And how can you be sure that these things arose from creed rather than, say, culture or opportunistic religious leaders?
I believe the historical examples of Arianism & Islam were cases of thought and action that sought to eliminate Orthodox Christianity by violence if need be. Whereas an historical example like Manicheism wanted to assimilate peacefully assimilate other belief systems, a movement like Paulicianism was anti Orthodox in thought and action also. I would also like to add that I am not glorifying the conduct of all Orthodox rulers either. The emperor Justinian burned Mancheans alive en mass on boats (as noted by Harry J Magoulias in his book: Byzantine Christianity: Enmperor, Curch, & the WEst..

So you're dropping the idea about having a 'premeditated agenda' (whatever you may be meaning by that)? I agree that I've never heard of a Methodist campaign to shut down the Orthodox Church by violence, but I don't think you can justify such general statements about 'Islam' as whole - theology, practice, individuals and all.

(Christianity is ante-Islam. Grin. I like it!)

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2009, 11:52:08 AM »
2) we are engaged in a war against Islam/Muslims,

This sounds evil.....a crypto-kalachakra-tantric-yogi with magnification/mask of an orthodox christian priest???
The Tibetan Buddhist scripture The Kalachakra Tantra (not held as sacred by Theravadans or other Buddhists, by the way) does prophesy a battle between a non-Indic faith (which is obviously Islam) and Buddhism, around 2400 CE. But this battle is spiritual:

Quote
In The Abridged Kalachakra Tantra, Manjushri Yashas explains that the fight with the non-Indic people of Mecca is not an actual war, since the real battle is within the body. The fifteenth-century CE Gelug commentator Kaydrubjey elaborates that Manjushri Yashas’s words do not suggest an actual campaign to kill the followers of the non-Indic religion. The First Kalki’s intention in describing the details of the war was to provide a metaphor for the inner battle of deep blissful awareness of voidness [shunyata] against unawareness and destructive behavior.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2009, 12:29:00 PM »
I would the say the Orthodox Church is Anti-Islam, but not Anti-Muslim... That is, going along with the idea of being against the heresy and not the heretic. Muslims are people, Islam is a false teaching, a heresy and a distortion. How can Christians be anything other than Anti-Islam?
However we cannot be Anti-Muslim (or any equivalent such as Anti-Semetic). We must love the people, respect them and be as Christ to them...

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2009, 04:56:20 PM »
I would the say the Orthodox Church is Anti-Islam, but not Anti-Muslim... That is, going along with the idea of being against the heresy and not the heretic. Muslims are people, Islam is a false teaching, a heresy and a distortion. How can Christians be anything other than Anti-Islam?
We can be simply like Christ. You see, we are not against heresy. Heretics are against us.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2009, 05:08:52 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son, but Muslims deny that God is a Father and that He has a Son.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:12:50 PM by Nazarene »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2009, 05:15:54 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son.
No, they are all anti-Christ. Christ Himself said when He sent out His disciples, "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" (Luke 10:16). So, therefore, those who reject Orthodoxy reject Christ, and therefore also reject the Father. Thus, they are all heretical.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2009, 05:24:29 PM »
So I reject Orthodoxy just because I'm a Nazarene?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:25:18 PM by Nazarene »

Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2009, 05:29:43 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son.
No, they are all anti-Christ. Christ Himself said when He sent out His disciples, "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" (Luke 10:16). So, therefore, those who reject Orthodoxy reject Christ, and therefore also reject the Father. Thus, they are all heretical.

At what point does an omission (of understanding, or of faith) become a rejection? If you believe that a Muslim has rejected Christ, is it not implicit in your belief that the Muslim has understood, and recognized, Christ prior to his rejection?

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2009, 05:42:06 PM »
Wrong choice of words for that post, what I should've said is that Islam denies that God is a Father and that He has a Son. The Quran flat out denies that Yeshua is the Son of God and even pronounces a curse upon those who dare believe that God has a son:

{Sura 9:30} And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

This is the definition of anti-Christ:

{1 John 2:22} Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

The religion of Islam is anti-Christ. While many of the adherents to Islam (Muslims) do not know any better, the fact is they do deny that Yeshua is the Son of God.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2009, 05:42:24 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son.
No, they are all anti-Christ. Christ Himself said when He sent out His disciples, "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" (Luke 10:16). So, therefore, those who reject Orthodoxy reject Christ, and therefore also reject the Father. Thus, they are all heretical.

At what point does an omission (of understanding, or of faith) become a rejection? If you believe that a Muslim has rejected Christ, is it not implicit in your belief that the Muslim has understood, and recognized, Christ prior to his rejection?
Good point. Indeed, "rejection" carries a strong implication of knowledge. My point in the last post was that for a religion to be anti-Orthodox is for it to be anti-Christ, as each of these religions has come about as the result of a schism with Orthodoxy. However, each of these has millions of adherents who do not know of Orthodoxy, and they on an individual level may not necessarily have rejected anything; they may simply have grown up under a different religion. But I reject the notion, as Nazarene has suggested, that there is any substantial difference between heretical religions which claim to be a part of the Church and those which do not.
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Offline Nazarene

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2009, 05:46:50 PM »
So I reject Orthodoxy just because I'm a Nazarene?

Answer my question please ytterbiumanalyst.

Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2009, 05:49:52 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son.
No, they are all anti-Christ. Christ Himself said when He sent out His disciples, "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" (Luke 10:16). So, therefore, those who reject Orthodoxy reject Christ, and therefore also reject the Father. Thus, they are all heretical.

At what point does an omission (of understanding, or of faith) become a rejection? If you believe that a Muslim has rejected Christ, is it not implicit in your belief that the Muslim has understood, and recognized, Christ prior to his rejection?
Good point. Indeed, "rejection" carries a strong implication of knowledge. My point in the last post was that for a religion to be anti-Orthodox is for it to be anti-Christ, as each of these religions has come about as the result of a schism with Orthodoxy. However, each of these has millions of adherents who do not know of Orthodoxy, and they on an individual level may not necessarily have rejected anything; they may simply have grown up under a different religion. But I reject the notion, as Nazarene has suggested, that there is any substantial difference between heretical religions which claim to be a part of the Church and those which do not.

Thanks, that is elegantly put. I agree.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2009, 05:50:00 PM »
So I reject Orthodoxy just because I'm a Nazarene?

Answer my question please ytterbiumanalyst.
I believe I have:

However, each of these has millions of adherents who do not know of Orthodoxy, and they on an individual level may not necessarily have rejected anything; they may simply have grown up under a different religion.

Besides the fact that it's only been twenty minutes since you asked it, and I don't necessarily read every thread or even every post (unless it's in my section or has been reported).
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Liz

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2009, 05:54:52 PM »
Wrong choice of words for that post, what I should've said is that Islam denies that God is a Father and that He has a Son. The Quran flat out denies that Yeshua is the Son of God and even pronounces a curse upon those who dare believe that God has a son:

{Sura 9:30} And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

This is the definition of anti-Christ:

{1 John 2:22} Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

The religion of Islam is anti-Christ. While many of the adherents to Islam (Muslims) do not know any better, the fact is they do deny that Yeshua is the Son of God.


Nazarene, I'm hesitant to say this because I don't have enough languages, but certainly in Latin (sorry, I know, not the original language of any part of the Bible, but probably the language in which I know the Bible best) the word for 'deny' (negare) also means, literally, 'say no to' or 'negate'. Denial in our modern sense can carry an implication of willful ignorance, a kind of 'shutting one's eyes to truth'. Is it possible that the original (with which I think you're familiar?) has a word that, like the Latin, suggests more than denial?

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2009, 05:55:29 PM »
No Christian should ever be anti-Muslim but every Christian should be anti-Islam.
I don't believe this is the case. Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox. Yet Orthodoxy is not opposed to any of these. If any of these oppose Orthodoxy, it's on their terms, not ours.

Islam is not merely anti-Orthodox, it is anti-Christ, that's why it should be opposed. Apart from Arianism (Jehovah's Witnesses & Ebionites) the others you mentioned are NOT anti-Christ, they do not deny the Father and the Son, but Muslims deny that God is a Father and that He has a Son.

Believing in Jesus as the Christ does not necessitate being Trinitarian.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Is the Orthodox Church Anti-Muslim?
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2009, 05:58:20 PM »

 Islam is heretical, sure, but it's no more heretical than, say, Arianism, Nestorianism, Catholicism, Methodism, or even Messianic Judaism. They're all heretical, because they are all not Orthodox.

I'm going to have to go with Nazarene in wondering about this:

What gives you the idea that Messianic Judaism is inherently heretical?
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