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Author Topic: Could/should the MP repeal the OCA's Autocephalecy?  (Read 4794 times) Average Rating: 0
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augustin717
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2009, 11:02:24 AM »

Quote
The oldest Orthodox Autocephalous Patriarchates do not live in majority Orthodox countries now, nor did they when they began.
Well, then grant America the first place in  the diptychs instead of Rome. But seriously, although the Pentarchy may have started in an pagan Empire, it was consolidated and flourished in an Orthodox Empire. Moreover, these ancient sees, although drastically reduced numerically and only a shadow of their former glory, retain all the ancient privileges in account of their glorious past. I do not think that this is the case of the OCA yet.
All other, newer autocephalous Churches live in lands that are overwhelmingly Orthodox.
OCA can be an autonomous Church under a Patriarchate, but conditions for autocephaly are not met yet.
I do not really think that its metropolitan showed much maturity when making impertinent remarks about the ecumenical patriarch and other patriarchs. The mentality displayed seemed and seems to be something like this: We deserve it because we are Americans and we are number one.
Quote
The OCA is a fait accompoli: it can, and does, function as an autocephalous body
.
With so many other sorts of "bodies" around her , some outnumbering her numerically.

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ialmisry
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« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2009, 11:44:59 AM »

[quote author = augustin717 link = topic = 23401.msg379687 # msg379687 date = 1259506944]
Quote
The oldest Orthodox Autocephalous Patriarchates do not live in majority Orthodox countries now, nor did they when they began. [/ quote]
Well, then grant America the first place in the diptychs instead of Rome.

Why, when New Rome never got it?

Quote
But seriously, although the Pentarchy may have started in the year pagan Empire, it was consolidated and flourished in an Orthodox Empire.

It was rent by schism for two centuries, and then the oldest Patriarchates were under Muslim occupation.


Quote
Moreover, these ancient sees, although numerically reduced drastically and only a shadow of their former glory, retain all the ancient privileges on account of their glorious past. I do not think that this is the case of the OCA yet.

It wasn't true of Constantinople either in 451, but not only was it consolidated as autocephalous, but moved towards the top.

Quote
All other, newer autocephalous Churches live in lands that are overwhelmingly Orthodox.
Albania? Poland? Czech Lands and Slovakia?

It's not necessary. The ancient ones, including perhaps Constantinople itself, weren't when they became autocephalous.


Quote
OCA can be an autonomous Church under the Patriarchate, but conditions for autocephaly has not met yet.

It is in far better position than for instance, the Church of Cyprus, which couldn't depose its primate witout outside help.

Conditions?  What "conditions" haven't been met?  The EP hasn't approved?  So what: history shows that's not a condition.


Quote
I do not really think that its metropolitan showed much maturity when making rude remarks about the Ecumenical Patriarchate and other patriarchs.

The EP sent his surrogate over, while the Phanar was scheming over North America.  The comments, given the context, were called for.  His Beatitude apologized for not mending his speech, but the "mature" EP had his surrogates continue to beat the dead horse.


Quote
The mentality displayed seemed and seems to be something like this: We deserve it because we are Americans and we are number one.
Quote

No, his Beatitude came right out and said it: we didn't take Ultramontanism from Old Rome, we (meaning all the Orthodox, not just in North America) won't tolerate it from New Rome.


[quote author = augustin717 link = topic = 23401.msg379687 # msg379687 date = 1259506944]The OCA is a fait accompoli: it can, and does, function as an autocephalous body [/ quote].
With so many other sorts of "bodies" around her, her outnumbering some numerically.

Is numbers one of the "conditions?"  Colonies do not count.

Sunteti la Romania?  The problem, for instance, between the Romanian Patriarchate and the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA is that the former sees no difference between the latter and Moldovan Orthodox Church.  The Eastern Orthodox Romanian Archbishoprick of both Americas is not in the same situation as the Metropolis of Bessarabia.
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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2009, 12:38:11 PM »

Conditions?  What "conditions" haven't been met?  The EP hasn't approved?  So what: history shows that's not a condition.

The Synod of the EP aren't the only ones.

while the Phanar was scheming over North America.

Slander doesn't suit you.

the "mature" EP had his surrogates continue to beat the dead horse.

He has no more control over the American bishops than he does over you.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2009, 01:53:49 PM »


while the Phanar was scheming over North America.

Slander doesn't suit you.

the "mature" EP had his surrogates continue to beat the dead horse.

He has no more control over the American bishops than he does over you.

Definitions first (from Merriam-Webster):

scheming: given to forming schemes; especially : devious

byzantine: 4 often not capitalized (a) : of, relating to, or characterized by a devious and usually surreptitious manner of operation <a Byzantine power struggle> (b) : intricately involved : labyrinthine <rules of Byzantine complexity>

Correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is quite adept at operating in a byzantine manner; indeed, the term came into being to describe what this ancienty patriarchate is most proficient in. It is not pejorative but descriptive.

Since truth is the perfect defense against slander, I would think that Isa is not guilty of slander. As for the patriarch not having control over his bishops, may I respectfully remind you of what happened to Archbishop Iakovos and to the American unity a la Ligonier.

Furthermore, the regional assemblies plan is a perfect example of successful (so far) byzantine scheming. It replaces any local initiatives with processes controlled by the mother churches.

Actually, I am very impressed that a small church like the Patriarchate of Constantinople has been able to control and guide inter-Orthodox affairs as much as she has since 1917. I do not think that this situation is ideal from a purely ecclesiastic perspective but there we are. Just save us the self-righteous sanctimony: one should not tell the ravished to lay back and enjoy it.
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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2009, 02:48:47 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that the Patriarchate of Constantinople is quite adept at operating in a byzantine manner; indeed, the term came into being to describe what this ancienty patriarchate is most proficient in. It is not pejorative but descriptive.

Byzantine when used in this manner is indeed a pejorative, and was always intended to be such by those who coined the term.  I admit my bias in any conversation I'm in - you should too, rather than trying to convince me that the term doesn't mean what it obviously means. 

Since truth is the perfect defense against slander, I would think that Isa is not guilty of slander. As for the patriarch not having control over his bishops, may I respectfully remind you of what happened to Archbishop Iakovos and to the American unity a la Ligonier.

Based on some later comments, I'll kindly doubt how sincere your "respectfully" comment is; however, as to the substance of your argument, rather than the presentation - I had the pleasure of seeing Archbishop Iakovos the year after his retirement.  He did not have the strength to serve Liturgy (although he had not lost even one ounce of his charisma and speaking ability) - his retirement was likely right on time, even if it was under a bit of pressure.  But, as I've maintained elsewhere, especially after having this conversation with folks much closer to Iakovos, the retirement was fully in his control - he had done things contrary to the EP's wishes before, and was fully aware that as a sovereign bishop he could only be "ordered around" or forced to retire by a synod.

Furthermore, the regional assemblies plan is a perfect example of successful (so far) byzantine scheming. It replaces any local initiatives with processes controlled by the mother churches.

I disagree, but then again maybe I'm too much of an optimist for the skeptics.

Actually, I am very impressed that a small church like the Patriarchate of Constantinople has been able to control and guide inter-Orthodox affairs as much as she has since 1917. I do not think that this situation is ideal from a purely ecclesiastic perspective but there we are.

Control is, IMO, much less accurate than 'guide' in your example.  As for "small church," the Patriarchate of Constantinople includes Northern Greece, numerous islands, and North America's largest jurisdiction amongst others, so I'd hardly call it "small" in comparison to, say, Albania.  Yes, everyone is "small" compared to Russia, but they've got their own issues, too.

Just save us the self-righteous sanctimony: 

Good day to you too, kettle.

one should not tell the ravished to lay back and enjoy it.

I haven't found anyone who has said that.  "Ravished," eh?  A bit over-the-top, but hey, if this needs to be an emotional conversation for you, then be my guest.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 02:49:01 PM by Fr. George » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2009, 09:36:55 PM »

Conditions?  What "conditions" haven't been met?  The EP hasn't approved?  So what: history shows that's not a condition.

The Synod of the EP aren't the only ones.

No, but no one brings up what Cyprus thinks on this matter.

History does not show that being a conition either.


while the Phanar was scheming over North America.

Slander doesn't suit you.

What is it called when third parties decide someone's fate behind closed doors, to suit their own ends.


the "mature" EP had his surrogates continue to beat the dead horse.

He has no more control over the American bishops than he does over you.

Hmmm.  Makes me wonder what the Chief Secretary was talking about then, about all those brights horizons that submission to the EP birngs.  If his American bishops don't see them.....
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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2009, 09:58:38 PM »

Quote
Albania? Poland? Czech Lands and Slovakia?
Albania has had an immemorial Orthodox presence within its present borders.
Czechia Slovakia and Poland have also had had a very long Orthodox presence within their borders and a native population that has been Orthodox for centuries.
I do not see how this applies now to America, where the only local  historically Orthodox population is in Alaska, except the immigrant islands. So, perhaps Alaska Indians/Eskimos should get the autocephaly first.
Quote
Sunteti la Romania?  The problem, for instance, between the Romanian Patriarchate and the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA is that the former sees no difference between the latter and Moldovan Orthodox Church.  The Eastern Orthodox Romanian Archbishoprick of both Americas is not in the same situation as the Metropolis of Bessarabia.
Sint in America acum, insa petrec o mare parte a timpului in Romania.
I am not sure what you mean by comparing Basarabia with the Archdiocese of America.
I don't see much of a difference either, except the geographical contiguity.
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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2009, 10:17:16 PM »

Quote
Albania? Poland? Czech Lands and Slovakia?
Albania has had an immemorial Orthodox presence within its present borders.
Czechia Slovakia and Poland have also had had a very long Orthodox presence within their borders and a native population that has been Orthodox for centuries.
I do not see how this applies now to America,

You mentioned something about an Orthodox majority, and none of the above has one.



Quote
where the only local  historically Orthodox population is in Alaska, except the immigrant islands.

Autocephaly should concern itself Orthodox populations in the present and future, not the past.


But in AK, the Orthodox are presently the largest Church in the state.


Quote
So, perhaps Alaska Indians/Eskimos should get the autocephaly first.

It does: it's a diocese of the OCA (I believe the bishop enthrones the Metropolitan or some such thing).


Quote
Sunteti la Romania?  The problem, for instance, between the Romanian Patriarchate and the Romanian Episcopate of the OCA is that the former sees no difference between the latter and Moldovan Orthodox Church.  The Eastern Orthodox Romanian Archbishoprick of both Americas is not in the same situation as the Metropolis of Bessarabia.
Sint in America acum, insa petrec o mare parte a timpului in Romania.
I am not sure what you mean by comparing Basarabia with the Archdiocese of America.
I don't see much of a difference either, except the geographical contiguity.


I heard Bishop Nathaniel speak last August.  He will never be a member of the Holy Synod of Romania, as he is a member of the Holy Synod of the local Church of his see.  Lord willing, Bessarabia will return to Romania, as it had previously.  That's never going to happen to Detroit, nor is there any reason for it to happen.  Bishop Nathaniel is not a Romanian bishop under the Russians, the same cannot be said for the Metropolitan of the Moldovan Church.

Apropo, under sunteti in America?
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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2009, 10:28:27 PM »

Quote
I heard Bishop Nathaniel speak last August.  He will never be a member of the Holy Synod of Romania, as he is a member of the Holy Synod of the local Church of his see.  Lord willing, Bessarabia will return to Romania, as it had previously.  That's never going to happen to Detroit, nor is there any reason for it to happen.  Bishop Nathaniel is not a Romanian bishop under the Russians, the same cannot be said for the Metropolitan of the Moldovan Church
IPS Natanail might not be a Romanian bishop under the Russians , but he certainly is a Romanian bishop under de Americans or whatever they be, as the Romanians in the OCA have their own national diocese and do not submit to the normal geographical diocesan OCA structures.
I think the only reason that prevents ROEA uniting with thje Archdiocese is the money issue: the first has money, the latter has debts.
Sint in Midwest.
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2009, 11:04:20 PM »

Quote
I heard Bishop Nathaniel speak last August.  He will never be a member of the Holy Synod of Romania, as he is a member of the Holy Synod of the local Church of his see.  Lord willing, Bessarabia will return to Romania, as it had previously.  That's never going to happen to Detroit, nor is there any reason for it to happen.  Bishop Nathaniel is not a Romanian bishop under the Russians, the same cannot be said for the Metropolitan of the Moldovan Church
IPS Natanail might not be a Romanian bishop under the Russians , but he certainly is a Romanian bishop under de Americans or whatever they be,

They are mostly Ameicans, as is he.  Some Canadians.


Quote
as the Romanians in the OCA have their own national diocese and do not submit to the normal geographical diocesan OCA structures.

LOL.  And all these "exarchs" adhere to normal geographical diocesan structures?

I'd like to see +Nathaniel serve as geographical bishop of Detroit and Michigan, in addition to being a defender of Romanian usage etc.  But the present set up is not a herendous travesty of the canons like having 5 bishops to one city and multiple exarchates claiming jurisdiciton on the territory of a local Church.



Quote
I think the only reason that prevents ROEA uniting with thje Archdiocese is the money issue: the first has money, the latter has debts.
Sint in Midwest.

Where exactly in the Midwest?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:05:10 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2009, 11:08:33 PM »

So, like it or not, IPS Natanail is more like what the Americans would call an "etnarch" than " a real Orthodox bishop".
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2009, 11:18:43 PM »

So, like it or not, IPS Natanail is more like what the Americans would call an "etnarch" than " a real Orthodox bishop".
No.  I know a lot of Greeks who would testify otherwise, along with this Arab. More real than bishops of sees that don't exist, or aren't even here.

It takes more than just standing and defending a certain ethnic tradition/liturgical tradition to become an ethnarch. It requires a good dose of denial of reaity of where you are.  +Nathaniel doesn't have that.  Being a convert doesn't help with being an ethnarch either.

He is what the Metropolitan of Sibiu was 1783-1862: the local bishop who defended an ethnic tradition in the one Church, the Karlovci Patriarchate.  Nothing else.
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2009, 11:28:10 PM »

I don't see former Greek-Catholics as really converts, at least not in the sense of this message board.
The fact is that he is the head of an ethnic, non-geographical diocese and the Romanians in it, even if they wouldn't go back to the mother church, they won't merge with the regular OCA dioceses either. It suits them best this way, for now , at least.

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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2009, 11:46:53 PM »

I don't see former Greek-Catholics as really converts, at least not in the sense of this message board.

I understand the "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek Catholic" didn't see it that way, and condemned him from the pulpit.


Quote
The fact is that he is the head of an ethnic, non-geographical diocese and the Romanians in it, even if they wouldn't go back to the mother church, they won't merge with the regular OCA dioceses either. It suits them best this way, for now , at least.

It suits the canons better as well, nothing of which would be "fixed" if the diocese "went back" to Romania.

The ethnic dioceses aren't unique to America, as I stated, and they are not new either: they have been part of the synod now for over a century, a number of saints (Tikhon, Raphael, Alexander....) being involed in setting up the first one in Brooklyn.


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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2009, 10:23:57 AM »


Actually, I am very impressed that a small church like the Patriarchate of Constantinople has been able to control and guide inter-Orthodox affairs as much as she has since 1917. I do not think that this situation is ideal from a purely ecclesiastic perspective but there we are.

Control is, IMO, much less accurate than 'guide' in your example.  As for "small church," the Patriarchate of Constantinople includes Northern Greece, numerous islands, and North America's largest jurisdiction amongst others, so I'd hardly call it "small" in comparison to, say, Albania.  Yes, everyone is "small" compared to Russia, but they've got their own issues, too.

It would indeed be quite small (and restricted to its Ottoman jurisdiction) if it did not have the exarchates in Australia, Western Europe, and North America. I have said it before: there are existential reasons for what any church does and they have been quite acute for this patriarchate since 1453. IMHO, its options are quite limited. I think they are limited to:

a. Constantinople must become the ecumenical patriarchate in a real sense: of the modern ecumene, not merely the Eastern Roman Empire, and not merely because an Emperor bestowed the title as Maurice did in late 6th Century and because an Ottoman Turk gifted her with more jurisdictions than allowed by the canons.

b. Constantinople must win its argument on Canon 28. At the very least, it cannot let go of its Western European, Australian and North American exarchates. The patriarchate's presence in these lands bolsters the Canon 28 argument; spreads the jurisdiction to the modern ecumene; and keeps the number of her members in a range that is proper for an ecumenical patriarchate.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 10:25:49 AM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »

b. Constantinople must win its argument on Canon 28. At the very least, it cannot let go of its Western European, Australian and North American exarchates. The patriarchate's presence in these lands bolsters the Canon 28 argument; spreads the jurisdiction to the modern ecumene; and keeps the number of her members in a range that is proper for an ecumenical patriarchate.



Speaking of the innovation of Met. Meletios:
Looking through some things to refresh my memory and add to my knowledge on the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Churches c. 1794-c. 1922, I came across this:

Verfassung und gegenwärtiger Bestand sämmtlicher Kirchen des Orients Eine canonistisch-statistische Abhandlung (Constitution and Current Stock of all the Churches of the Orient. A canonist--statistical treatment) by Isodore Silbernagl

The first edition came in 1865:beware! It's in Fraktur.
http://books.google.ro/books?id=jM0CAAAAQAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The second edition with revisions came out after the death of the author, in 1904.
http://books.google.com/books?id=hiIQAAAAYAAJ&dq=Verfassung+Silbernagl+1904&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The author goes through all the jurisdictions that existed in his day. I reproduce what he says under the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

6. Jurisdiction of the Patriarch.

The spiritual power of jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople extends over the whole European Turkey, a part of Bulgaria, Rumelia and Asia Minor and the islands of the Aegean Sea, with Crete.

[the 1865 version reads:  "The spiritual power of jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople extends over the whole European Turkey, in more certain respects, at least, even with inclusion of the Danube Principalities [i.e. Romania], as well as over the Diocese of Asia, as far as these are not subject to the Patriarch of Antioch and Jerusalem. The archbishoprick of Ohrid and Pec claimed earlier times, although an independent position, but however were united with the Patriarchate of Constantinoplein in modern times by a Turkish Hatti-serif of the government: however, found exempt even now, are the Archbishop of Cyprus as autokephalos [in Greek in the original] and the Vladika of Montenegro."  I wil put in the more important differences between the editions]

As spiritual leader to the Patriarch is due the highest ecclesiastical legislative, governmental and administrative law. It is to him to interpret the various special or universel ecclesiastical rules and to him to judge all the controversies going to the dioceses, as generally all important religious matters. As for the individual spiritual powers of the patriarch, he can choose according to the following Berat issued by the Turkish Government in particular:
"The Patriarch is the manager of all the churches and monasteries of the Greek--Orthodox Confession, as well as the control of their economic circumstances."
"He has to confirm the bishop chosen by the Synod of the and the deciding vote in caseof a tie.  [1865: He can at his pleasure appointe and dismiss all Metropolitans and Bishops] At his request, the Port shall adopt the requisite advisement for the newly appointed prelates."
"He has the right to expel all Metropolitans and Bishops from their diocese, with the exception of the four metropolitans, which  are named to use the patriarchal seal, and so those who are, with the Patriarch, in possession of the Synodal Seal. Yea, even the Patriarch of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem not been allowed to come, without his consent and that of the Synod, to Constantinople."
"The patriarch and his vicars have unlimited jurisdiction in marriage and wills."
"The Patriarch is entitled to the criminal code about the whole clergy, according to the laws of the church."
"If complaints are collected by the Turkish administrative or the various competant authorities about a bishop, it may be decided only with the aid of the Patriarch of the Porte. Similarly, the arrest of a prelate should be made only with the consent of the Patriarch and with the assistance of his officials."
"All the adherents of the Greek Orthodox Church are bond to the strictest obedience to the patriarchal and it is therefore of the same law of correction against the recalcitrant. He can excommunicate them freely, to deny them church burial etc."
" Furthermore, the Patriarch enjoys the privilege exclusively to consecrate the sacred chrism, and the right of Strauropegions in every diocese. But as the patriarch of Constantinople is also the Head of the Greek nation, and so certain secular powers come to him, and in this respect extends his jurisdiction even over the territory the remaining patriarchs, because he is over all the Greek schismatic [sic] subjects of the Porte.  Only [1865: in the Danube Principalities and in Montenegro, which have a Christian administration seperate from the Turkic government [N.B. the Danube Principalities, i.e. Romania, were still technically part of the Empire, or as the Vizier was saying at the time "integral territory," and Montenegro's independence had not yet been recognized internationally besides Russia] as well as ] in Egypt  in Egypt, where the Viceroy has made himself independent of the Port may it be obvious, that the [Ecumenical] Patriarch has no secular authority. To this belongs primarily with respect to some policing powers of the patriarch for lesser offenses, theft, etc. For this purpose the patriarch's own Court of Justice (kriterion), which is composed of seven Officials (klerikoi) and has under him or his presidencies (Protosynellos) two public weekly court sessions held, namely on Wednesday and Friday, . The Patriarch has therefore his own kavasses (military police) and a private prison. He can have each of his faithful, if he deserves, to be condemned to the galleys, without this, only by specially obtaining the required permission from the Porte.   Similarly, can all civil disputes, not only between the Greeks themselves, but also between Armenians and Greeks and even between Greeks and Turks be used with the consent of the parties before the Court of the Patriarchs, and this decided verdict is also recognized by the Porte as valid.  However,  the recourse to the Turkish Courts remains free to the parties. The laws by which the spiritual court of the Patriarchs proceed, are precisely the Byzantine, especially in use are the Hexabiblos of Harmenopolos and the Pedalion (ie pedalion pattern book). Finally, we note that the patriarch can exercise all these spiritual and temporal rights only in communion with the Synod.  Therefore, the orders of the Patriarch must be issued under the Synodal seal [1865: after the enactment of the Piscopos-Calent (Bureau of Bishops)], and the Port is bound to consider only those perfomances submited under the synodal seal."

He is aware of the Orthodox in North America:"Also into America has the Russian Orthodox Church extended itself, and the Bishop of the Aleutians and of North America has his see in San Francisco in California."

What he is not aware of, is some sort of super jurisdiction of the EP over barbarian lands, neither in 1865 (just before the Alaskan Cession) nor 1904 (just before the claims of 1908).  I have come across things in Jerusalem and Cyprus, which, like the 1908 Tomos, promote Greek control, and they have Meletios finger prints all over them (as the British authorities found).
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« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2009, 12:43:20 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.
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« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2009, 01:28:08 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.
Telling the Greeks "no" is one thing, telling the Russians "no," quite another.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2009, 01:50:14 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.

Something tells me that law would be repealed very fast if what has been suggested were to happen!  So Patriarch Ivan Russkie I would be a definite possibility.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2009, 02:11:51 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.

Dear Tureen,

The Russians who reside in Istanbul and are citizens of Turkey now outnumber, twice over, the Greeks who reside there and are also citizens.    These Russians, quite rightly, are members of the Church of Constantinople and commemorate the Patriarch of Constantinople as their bishop.  The Patriarch of Constantinople cares for these Russians spiritually and recently he consecrated a church which he has designated for them.

The Russians who are citizens of Turkey are increasing.  The Greeks are decreasing.  EU membership could increase the number of Greeks but EU membership for Turkey seems to be forever on hold and in the meantime the Russians grow.

Given time it is inevitable that the Russian members of the Church of Constantinople will come to the fore and a Patriarch of Russian origin and Turkish citizenship will be elected from among them.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:13:39 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2009, 02:18:47 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.

Dear Tureen,

The Russians who reside in Istanbul and are citizens of Turkey now outnumber, twice over, the Greeks who reside there and are also citizens.    These Russians, quite rightly, are members of the Church of Constantinople and commemorate the Patriarch of Constantinople as their bishop.  The Patriarch of Constantinople cares for these Russians spiritually and recently he consecrated a church which he has designated for them.

The Russians who are citizens of Turkey are increasing.  The Greeks are decreasing.  EU membership could increase the number of Greeks but EU membership for Turkey seems to be forever on hold and in the meantime the Russians grow.

Given time it is inevitable that the Russian members of the Church of Constantinople will come to the fore and a Patriarch of Russian origin and Turkish citizenship will be elected from among them.
yay! no more Phanariotism.
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« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2009, 02:28:53 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.
Telling the Greeks "no" is one thing, telling the Russians "no," quite another.

I think you are right!   There have been two instances in recent years when Russian bishops have been in Istanbul for pan-Orthodox events.   While there they have taken the opportunity to walk into Hagia Sophia, put on vestments and celebrate Requiem services for the deceased Patriarchs of the city.

You can only imagine the poor Turkish Police and the museum authorities who would have stood there disbelieving and openmouthed.  No doubt they would have rushed to the telephone to ask what to do and were probably told it is better to let the Russians go ahead rather than to risk the international bad press and adverse diplomatic repercussions from Russia if they closed the services down and arrested the Russian bishops.   laugh

How wonderful it would have been to be there and to hear the singing of Christian prayer reverberating in the dome of Hagia Sophia, with the strength and the beauty of Russian male voices raised in worship of the Trinity.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:38:21 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2009, 02:56:21 PM »



 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey,

Brasstureen,

Just noticed that this is your first post  ~  WELCOME to the Forum!
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« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2009, 03:39:17 PM »

Quote
How wonderful it would have been to be there and to hear the singing of Christian prayer reverberating in the dome of Hagia Sophia, with the strength and the beauty of Russian male voices raised in worship of the Trinity.
Greek psaltic chant sounds even better, IMHO.
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« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2009, 06:12:47 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.

Dear Tureen,

The Russians who reside in Istanbul and are citizens of Turkey now outnumber, twice over, the Greeks who reside there and are also citizens.    These Russians, quite rightly, are members of the Church of Constantinople and commemorate the Patriarch of Constantinople as their bishop.  The Patriarch of Constantinople cares for these Russians spiritually and recently he consecrated a church which he has designated for them.

The Russians who are citizens of Turkey are increasing.  The Greeks are decreasing.  EU membership could increase the number of Greeks but EU membership for Turkey seems to be forever on hold and in the meantime the Russians grow.

Given time it is inevitable that the Russian members of the Church of Constantinople will come to the fore and a Patriarch of Russian origin and Turkish citizenship will be elected from among them.
yay! no more Phanariotism.
Roll Eyes
People with no idea what they are talking about should not make statements that linger for all to read.
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« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2009, 07:55:39 PM »



I think that it would be absolutely brilliant for the Church of Russia to loose its autocephaly and return to being a daughter Church of Constantinople.

That would bring the 180 Russian bishops into the Synod of Constantinople...

Guess what nationality the next Patriarch of Constantinople will be?

Long may he reign....Patriarch Ivan Russkie I of Constantinople.  Grin


 police By Turkish law, the patriarch must be a citizen of Turkey, so the chances of there ever being a Patriarch Ivan Russkie I are less than slim no matter how many Russian bishops there are in the EP, unless, of course, they just close up shop in Turkey to free themselves of the Turkish secular law and move the EP back to the third Rome, Moscow (or as once suggested, New York City). Since that is not very likely,the next EP will most likely be yet another born-in-Turkey Greek, assuming there are any left by then.

Dear Tureen,

The Russians who reside in Istanbul and are citizens of Turkey now outnumber, twice over, the Greeks who reside there and are also citizens.    These Russians, quite rightly, are members of the Church of Constantinople and commemorate the Patriarch of Constantinople as their bishop.  The Patriarch of Constantinople cares for these Russians spiritually and recently he consecrated a church which he has designated for them.

The Russians who are citizens of Turkey are increasing.  The Greeks are decreasing.  EU membership could increase the number of Greeks but EU membership for Turkey seems to be forever on hold and in the meantime the Russians grow.

Given time it is inevitable that the Russian members of the Church of Constantinople will come to the fore and a Patriarch of Russian origin and Turkish citizenship will be elected from among them.
yay! no more Phanariotism.
Roll Eyes
People with no idea what they are talking about should not make statements that linger for all to read.
it was a joke in regards to another thread. Lost in translation though. Sorry if anyone took offense.
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