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Author Topic: Growing up Orthodox around 1950's Catholics?  (Read 5573 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: September 12, 2009, 03:29:15 PM »

For those of you Orthodox who grew up in heavily Catholic areas in the "golden age" of the 1950's, what was it like/  I know that, specially in PA, NJ, and NY, a lot of Orthodox settled in the same areas as did the ethnic Catholics (Scranton, Pittsburg, NYC, etc..)  What was it like to grow up Orthodox in the shadow of the triumphant RCC of that era which actively prayed for the conversion of "godless Russia" and proselytized freely amongst all religions and classes of people?

Did any ever make an attempt to convert RCs to Orthodoxy or, at least, invite them to your parishes?  Did any of your relatives get pulled into that then almost monolith like religion? Did any of you suffer some harassment or open persecution for your faith?
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 04:33:28 PM »

For those of you Orthodox who grew up in heavily Catholic areas in the "golden age" of the 1950's, what was it like/  I know that, specially in PA, NJ, and NY, a lot of Orthodox settled in the same areas as did the ethnic Catholics (Scranton, Pittsburg, NYC, etc..)  What was it like to grow up Orthodox in the shadow of the triumphant RCC of that era which actively prayed for the conversion of "godless Russia" and proselytized freely amongst all religions and classes of people?

Did any ever make an attempt to convert RCs to Orthodoxy or, at least, invite them to your parishes?  Did any of your relatives get pulled into that then almost monolith like religion? Did any of you suffer some harassment or open persecution for your faith?

I grew up in a small coal mining town in upstate Pennsylvania.  The town had a population of about 5,000 to 10,000 at that time and had three Roman Catholic Churches that were identified by their ethnic background (Irish, Lithuanian, Slovak).  So the town was predominately Roman Catholic with a few Welsh Congregatonal families.

Most of my friends were Roman Catholic.  And yes, in spite of what is claimed now, I remember the times I was told that they had to go to church to pray for the conversion of Russia to ROMAN CATHOLICISM.  I also remember being told when I invited them to my church (Russian Orthodox) that the nuns told them they couldn't come in because if they did they would go to hell because it would be a sin.  They even went so far as to tell them we had an American flag on the floor that we would walk on and spit on every time we went to church!  And the sad part is that this was believed by my firends!  Every time I was invited I went to their church or even religious classes because I was taught by my parents to honor all churches but to keep my own.  I remember one of those classes where the nun stated that the entire Mass was in Latin.  I raised my hand and said that wasn't completely true because the response Kyrie Elesion was Greek not Latin.  The nun got mad and asked me to leave.  Never went back.

Our church was taken to court by the Irish church and charged with disturbing the peace for ringing the bells at midnight to announce the Ressurection!  Needless to say, it was thrown out of court. 

The Irish church was at the top of the hill and our church was at the bottom.  On Good Friday the nuns used to hide behind the bushes to watch the procession.  Things are different now because they actually came in to see the tomb until their church was closed along with the two other Roman Catholic churhes in the town about two years ago.  Now in the entire valley of four small towns there is only one Roman Catholic church open.

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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 07:39:01 PM »

^When my church carried the American flag in community parades, we did so that WE wouldn't be spit upon.  I never thought it was the Catholics that were going to spit on me.  It was that "other" group of Christians that thought we worshipped the woman who, according to them, was ONLY Jesus' mother.  I never suffered persecution from the Catholics.  My best friends were
RC and many had at least one brothers/sister that was a monk/priest/nun.

There were quite a few Byzantine Catholics who really couldn't differentiate between their church and the Orthodox Church.  Father would always ask new immigrants that visited our church,  "Was there a picture of the Pope hanging in your house or church?"  If they answered "yes", they were welcome to be Chrismated and later join us in the communion line. We didn't have inquirers classes, to my knowledge, so I don't know precisely how Father "re-educated" any Catholics that wanted to join.  I imagine that he had dinner at their homes many times and spoke at length about Orthodoxy.

I also see the vast number of closed Catholic churches.  Sadly, there are closed Orthodox churches also in my area.
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 08:43:45 PM »

^ In fairness, I should add that this was during intensifying Cold War fears. Many Americans disliked/were suspicious of everything/anything Russian (AKA the bomb shelter years).
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 12:35:34 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  I imagine that being Russian Orthodox in those days was very difficult.  I imagine that if one was Russia Orthodox and a member of the old Mp exarchate, things must have been even worse.  Not only was one held in suspicion of being in league with the USSR by non Orthodox, but also held in contempt by fellow Orthodox for attending a "red church".

My family were Catholics, but my mothers were of the Italian variety.  They were hated and looked down upon by the Irish overlords of the RCC in America in those days for being bad Catholics". Italians tended to have somewhat rocky relationship with the RCC then and were often treated as second class by other groups (mostly the Irish who tend to treat all other Catholic ethnic groups as beneath them).

Orthodoc, Did the nuns hiding in the bushes ever get caught?
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 03:35:49 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  I imagine that being Russian Orthodox in those days was very difficult.  I imagine that if one was Russia Orthodox and a member of the old Mp exarchate, things must have been even worse.  Not only was one held in suspicion of being in league with the USSR by non Orthodox, but also held in contempt by fellow Orthodox for attending a "red church".

My family were Catholics, but my mothers were of the Italian variety.  They were hated and looked down upon by the Irish overlords of the RCC in America in those days for being bad Catholics". Italians tended to have somewhat rocky relationship with the RCC then and were often treated as second class by other groups (mostly the Irish who tend to treat all other Catholic ethnic groups as beneath them).

Orthodoc, Did the nuns hiding in the bushes ever get caught?

We used to wave to them to let them know we knew they were there.  As I said, a few years ago I went back for Good Friday services and they were all in the front pew.  Things had certainly changed.

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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 12:19:09 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  I imagine that being Russian Orthodox in those days was very difficult.  I imagine that if one was Russia Orthodox and a member of the old Mp exarchate, things must have been even worse.  Not only was one held in suspicion of being in league with the USSR by non Orthodox, but also held in contempt by fellow Orthodox for attending a "red church".

Many of our close relatives were/are in the other Russian churches.  We went to baptisms/Chrismations/weddings/churching babies and stayed for DL but couldn't take communion nor could they at our important church events. This was painful and awful. There were some ugly disputes but inside we still wanted to be "one" with them, just like today.   

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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 01:48:02 AM »

Ms.  hoorah,
What Russian Orthodox jurisdiction were you in?  MP exachate or Metropolia?  If you were Mp then what was the main reason why people chose to belong to the Patriarchal Church over the much larger Russian metropolia (ROCOR was mostly great Russian then so I don't think too many little Russians were members until the OCA calendar change in the 80's).  Did people who belonged to the Patriarchate feel that they had to do this in order to save their sous or was it mostly ideological?
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 03:17:53 AM »

Because we grew up in mostly a protestant midwestern city, many American-born Orthodox in this area during that period became Methodists.  I can only speculate on the dynamics, but here is a wild guess:  The children didn't feel any particular connection to the Greek church because of the language; and there was certainly a rift with the Catholic (and Greek) church, especially if you came from the Balkans.  The Methodists of the day were pretty strict (they call themselves Catholic-lite) and didn't have the baggage of the others.
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 06:06:54 PM »

Rob,
 ^Because my family moved to a different neighborhood,  I belonged to the Metropolia and ROCOR.  I will make my answer brief and vague...hehe.  In my area, location to the father’s job was the most influential criteria in choosing between Russian churches.           

Location--Immigrants lived in communities which were very close to the father’s job.  Few owned cars because they had modest incomes and everything needed was in walking distance.  You attended the closest church because one had to walk everywhere in large amounts of snow during the winter months.

Communism-- All jurisdictions thought they were doing God’s Will.  Some wanted to support Mother Russia and others thought they should not.  My region’s concern was very concerned about financial autonomy.  Many of the Russian churches were lost to the financial problems (not lost to the Living Church of Mother Russia) in the years near the Great Depression. When the immigrant families, with modest incomes, had to buy churches for a second time, they became very concerned about the ability of their parish to hold the mortgage on the church property.

Sadly, it was the family that suffered the most from the arguments between jurisdictions.  They were separated from members of their family in God’s Church.  They had to walk to the nearest church in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb/March in subfreezing temperatures, in 40” of snow, with elderly babushka, a pregnant wife and 4 little children in tow.  They had little choice in what opinions they indirectly supported with their church donations when they HAD to walk to the closest church.

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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 07:22:35 PM »

I remember being told by my mother that I was not Russian Orthodox but Orthodox..I also remember when they took the name "Russian" off of the sign of our parish.
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 03:07:09 AM »

SDMPNS

Were Orthodox from the Balkans stricter then Greeks?  Also don't Catholics and Orthodox actually have a tendency to be less strict then fundamentalist Protestants?


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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 04:30:42 AM »

Also don't Catholics and Orthodox actually have a tendency to be less strict then fundamentalist Protestants?

If by "be less strict" you mean "openly enjoy drinking alcohol and asking saints for prayers", then you're right on the money.
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 10:56:31 AM »

SDMPNS

Were Orthodox from the Balkans stricter then Greeks?  Also don't Catholics and Orthodox actually have a tendency to be less strict then fundamentalist Protestants?


I can only speak from my personal experience, but my immediate and extended family was very strict from the standpoint of your personal morality, how you conduct yourselves, what they allow you to do as children and how they raised you ... but we weren't so much church people, if that makes any sense.  Or maybe a better way of explaining it is that they had all the values associated with church people, don't drink to excess, don't cheat on your wife (although European men are famous for this), don't do drugs, study and get your degree, don't engage in low-life behavior, etc. but they didn't really think you need to make such a big production out of going to church every Sunday.  In terms of making a big production of relgious holidays, saint days, etc., most of that died off with my grandmothers, unless there is a family member whose name day we celebrate. 

If you think about how people live, it's consistent with what they do in Europe.  They don't make such a huge production out of church over there.  Basically, people mill in and out of the village church, light a candle, stay briefly and then leave ... and nowadays, the village churches might only be open for a service once a month, as many people have moved to the nearest urban area.

I can make one generality about my people in that most of them have the mentality that belief in God is good, a little religion is good, but too much religion is no good.  To each his own, but I think this is a pretty healthy way to look at things.
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 05:23:41 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

This reply is going to ramble on a bit as I am going to express my thoughts randomly, so here goes.

1.  "Super legalistic type of faith" is, I think, a great way to describe the Western mentality toward religion.  Western people are out of their comfort zone, when they don't have boundaries or rules.  I think Eastern and Mediterranean people have a mentality that as long as you're doing the right thing, you kind of do what you want.  Western people like structure.  I chuckle when I read some of these threads about how divided the Catholic church and the Orthodox are.  When I read these threads, I wonder if any cradle Orthodox really care about those differences.  I know my priest rolls his eyes and says we are 99.5% the same and even lets Byzantines and Maronites serve as Godparents.

2.  Westerners have a lot more faith in these institutions than Europeans do.  Europeans know these are/were for most of their history more like imperial, quasi-governmental institutions rather than being agents of good or agents of faith.  These churches were all intertwined with the government and the things they did were often as heavy-handed as the government.  I think that's why Europeans have a what I think is a healthy skepticism for relgious institutions of all kind.  My dad sure does and he is one of the most moral, upstanding people you will ever meet.

3.  One of the things that puzzled me is how Westerners, especially Protestants, say they put God first all the time.  With Europeans, both Italians, Eastern European Catholics and most of the Orthodox, it's all about family first.  Your family, especially your kids, are first.  Church, God, government, etc. are all way down the list.  I think this is one of the reasons converts have trouble in ethnic parishes.  Ethnics are devout, in terms of their own soul (even though many have their own warts), but don't really need some priest to tell them how to lead their life.  They respect the church and God, but have a realistic view of the church and its proper place.

4.  Keeping this in mind, that's why many Europeans exert a heavy hand over who their children date ... they try (to varying degrees of success) to make sure they find a mate that works for the entire family.  I think there is also a mentality that dating shouldn't be casual.  You aren't dating someone just to "hang out" or for "physical" activities.  You are dating someone where there's potential for something more.  I think that's why the Catholic and Orthodox divorce rates are so low.  I'm also talking tradition here, I know a lot of these old valuse have been lost in the westernization of Europe.

5.  I don't think I'd feel comfortable in a parish full of converts like some of the OCA parishes.  I kind of like the ethnic life, and the warm ethnic personality.  I'm not knocking the converts, but I deal with Americans all the time.  Church is kind of my way to get away from everyday life and be around people like myself.

Again, these are in no particular order ... just random thoughts.
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 05:12:13 PM »

drtyharry66,
You and I are on the same page brother.  We obviously grew up in similar environments. I too have more of an Orthodox/Eastern understanding of religion and faith issues.  I too come from a culture where family is put first, above all else, and can't come to understand the western mentality towards just abut anything (even though i was born in America and lived here my hole life).
Everything in the west seems to e about individuality, even in matters of religion  There is no real sense of community, or communal existence when it comes to anything, even the family itself.  I always get a kick out of how some western moralist will decry the destruction of marriage and family in America because I think to myself "Americans don't and never did have a proper understanding of what a family is in the first place".  How can we save institutions fro going down hill when we never got them right in the first place?

I also like the ethnic Orthodox (and even Catholic) parishes and feel much, much more comfortable in them then some of the 99% convert missions that you get in some places.  The ethnics have a real spirit of religion, a real "dukha" as the Slavs call it. The converts mean well but they are too legalistic, they try to do everything to "by the book" so that, in the end, everything comes out so wooden, so impersonal and joyless.  This is why, when I ffiest became Orthodox, I went out of my way to join an ethnic, Russian parish.  The atmosphere there seemed very close to the ethnic type of Catholicism that I was raised with.  It made me feel more at home and not so much of a stranger.  When you are an ethnic outsider in a very westernised, secularized, world, all other ethnic types seem similar to you in their ideals if not their backrounds.

This is why everytime I here about an ethnic Orthodox o Catholic parish closing, I get sad.  I think "what will/are they going to replace these closed Churches with?" 
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 12:27:25 AM »

First of all, pardon my typing skills in previous posts.  My HP computer and Windows Vista don’t seem to like this message board editing program.  I am typing this in Word and hope it will be more readable.

With regard to family, there two hot-button news stories that come to mind.  The first was the story about Elian Gonzalez, the second is the current story about Fatima Rifqa Bary, the runaway Muslim girl who converted from Christianity, who ran away from her Columbus home and was hidden for two weeks by a couple of evangelical pastors.  Both involved the Florida Courts. 

With regard to the Elian Gonzalez story, the child’s mother died and the issue was whether to return the child to his father in Cuba, or whether he was to stay in Florida.  I was amazed how many people, especially evangelicals, came out to say that the child should remain in America.  Again, I love America and all, but as I said, family is NUMBER ONE and it boggles my mind how anybody could deny a father the right to be reunited with his child only to score political points against Castro.  Again, there is nothing more important than the family bond, government be damned.  A similar story is going on with this Bary girl where these Evangelicals (on they Orlando Sentenel message boards they call them Talibangelicals) are making crazy claims that the mosque her parents go to in Ohio is a haven for radicals, and that if she is returned to Ohio she is at risk of being honor-killed.  This, despite the fact that the local prosecutor said that in his 31 years in office, he had never heard of any honor killings ever occurring in the area, and despite the fact that both Florida and Ohio childrens services agencies have investigated and stated the parents are no threat.  It seems to me that real Christians would want to get the family back together again, but then again that’s just my Old Country mentality, I guess.  (I was also born in America, by the way.)

You are right about your statement about individuality, which kind of ties into my theory of why there are so many divorces in this country.  How can you put the children first, when you are putting your own individual impulses and what makes you happy first.  I don’t want to sound too pollannish, I know life isn’t perfect, but it is this sense of family and putting children first that is very dominant among Europeans, especially the further east you go.  (I include Italy and Spain and even Germany in this group.  The true farmer Germans I know that still have that mentality are also very strong family people.)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you touch on spirit ("dukha" or we call it “dusha”).  I’m not saying we are perfect by any means, but I often found myself connecting better with other Eastern Europeans I met in college (Catholic, Byzantine or Orthodox) over the American kids I grew up with.  There is a certain openness, a certain warmth I really love – you don’t have to talk serious, you can joke around and say almost anything – with white people you always have to watch what you say it seems like.

One final thought, and it kind of ties into this individuality thing, you mentioned about the converts and wanting to do everything by the book.  Hey, I think it’s great that they want to join our club so don’t feel I am bashing you by any means.  Given how many people marry off and disappear, we also need the new blood.  That said, this whole concept of “choosing” a religion that’s right for you also makes me chuckle.  We, and it sounds like you can say the same thing, grew up in a more goody-two-shoes environment than 99% of the holy-rollers out there.  God and teaching us the right things was very important to my parents, but not necessarily church dogma (my family has always helped out the church, though).  So my attitude is, I was born into it, it is part of my identity, it was part of the identity of my forefathers … that’s what I am.  I don’t need to “shop around” for any particular dogma … it’s more about family with me.  Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how I feel and how I think the majority feels.

I kind of look at church this way, and I know I’m going to get beat up for this … But if you look at all the vestments, all the pomp and circumstance, to me it’s kind of all show.  I don’t mean that in a bad way, I mean that in the way a judge wears a gown and a wig.  If he was just some guy sitting at a table wearing shorts, the institution wouldn’t have much majesty.  So, I’m content with knowing that the preist is there doing his thing, protecting the institution, keeping it alive, but I don’t look at it necessarily for any guidance.  That’s what you’re supposed to get at home
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 01:01:42 AM »

dirtyharry66,
You are right on the money as far as family goes.  America is so individualistic, so cold, that it's really hard to connect to people. Eveybody is so in it for themselves that family and children often take a back seat to each individuals personal whims. I grew up In a largely Italian American family We were very close.  I had friends and relations in school but my family always took priority for me.  I always remember getting scolded by teachers for leaving early around Christmas time to go spend time with my family instead of taking final exams (I luckily got to make them p after the Christmas break.  I looked a education is important, but secondary, to my family and personal ties.  This put me in conflit with a large segment of the ideologythat one picks up in Amerian schools (that success and personal wealth are everything and everyone else in your life must take a back seat for them).  This may be why I unfortunately didn't do so well in school but I stuck to my values.  I remember all my friends were obsessed about getting into the right schools and I just didn't care that much and didn't understand why they were making such a big deal about it.

I am from ethnic roots but went to High School in one of those typical, wealthy, suburban areas were everybody was welloff and they programed their children to be the same.  This obsessive materialism was the real ethnic backround of most of my classmates.  Their desire to continue in their parents pursuit of the "good life" was as important to them as fighting wars for national supremacy were/are to Europeans.  I don't really fault them for seeing life through such a lens.  It's just that i could never bring myself to do so or even understand why they cared to.  With southern ad east European people, family and the connected social life that comes with it are all that one really needs.  When I grew up, my cousins were my best friends.  My father and uncles were my male role models.  I didn't need to copy some secular, Hollywood, image of what I should be, how I should act and dress. 

Life for me (and other ethnics in America) is so different.  It's so hard to explain, let alone impress on outsiders.  Believe me I have had Americanized people marry into my family and be so completely lost by things that they ran off eventually.  The culture is so hard to take if you come fr one that is the exact opposite in very way.  That's why we have to stick together.  A person can try to run off from the ethnic experience ( I admit to having tried to for a while in school) and some may succeed, but there are many who just come back because they realize that you can't hide whats inside.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 10:21:27 AM »

^ In fairness, I should add that this was during intensifying Cold War fears. Many Americans disliked/were suspicious of everything/anything Russian (AKA the bomb shelter years).

I grew up on the East Coast, in a very insular, blue collar community that was largely Orthodox Jewish, and many of our Jewish grandparents had immigrated here from Czarist Russia, in the years right before the Bolshevik Revolution.

It was hard for people like me, growing up in the late 1950s-early 1960s. My zayde (grandfather) was born in Russia in 1892, came here in 1903 right after the Kishinev pogrom, with my great grandmother. However, my grandfather was very much into Russian culture (a rare phenomenon for Jews of his generation, who usually identified anything Russian with persecution of Jews.)

I remember when I was little he gave me a set of matryoshka dolls. My mother was terrified people would see me with them and assume we were "Reds"; she also was bothered by the fact that our last name was very identifiably Russian (though Jewish). Because of this I was not allowed as a child to identify in any way as Russian, or even Russian-Jewish.

A few years ago we relocated and without realizing it, moved to an area with a heavy (post-Communist) Russian and Eastern European population. As a result, now at the age of 51, I'm having a second childhood, one that was denied me due to the Cold War fears....needless to say, I now have a very large and still growing collection of matryoshka dolls. Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 10:29:38 AM »

Thanks for the replies.  I imagine that being Russian Orthodox in those days was very difficult.  I imagine that if one was Russia Orthodox and a member of the old Mp exarchate, things must have been even worse.  Not only was one held in suspicion of being in league with the USSR by non Orthodox, but also held in contempt by fellow Orthodox for attending a "red church".

My family were Catholics, but my mothers were of the Italian variety.  They were hated and looked down upon by the Irish overlords of the RCC in America in those days for being bad Catholics". Italians tended to have somewhat rocky relationship with the RCC then and were often treated as second class by other groups (mostly the Irish who tend to treat all other Catholic ethnic groups as beneath them).

Orthodoc, Did the nuns hiding in the bushes ever get caught?

I was just telling my son about that the other day, how the Irish RCs looked down on Italian RCs for not being "good enough Catholics". The reason stemmed from political ones from southern Italy, where the priests often worked in cahoots with the landowners, for whom very poor Sicilians and Southern Italians had to slave. Consequently male Italians came to see priests as the bad guys, a view they carried with them to America. This is why it was mostly Italian women who went to church, not the men. The men on the Italian side of my family were very anti-clerical, and this was a common view.

What I find interesting is that when Vatican II happened, it was mostly the IRISH RCs that went all for it...some of the worst liturgical abusers were Irish. Even today, the parishes that have the Tridentine Mass offered tend to be Italian ethnic parishes! So while the Irish may have bashed the Italians for their pereceived lack of observance, today its mostly the ITALIAN parishes who are saving the Traditional Mass! Grin
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 12:16:11 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 12:40:49 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 12:48:45 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.

 Wink...He is not one to back down from a perspective that's for sure.

On the other hand just east of me on I-80 is Hazleton and in Hazleton, PA the Irish and the Italians did NOT get along at all.  I don't know the source of that antagonism but I don't think it was Irish bishop/overlords that started that family feud.  That seems to me to be more of a class war than a religious one...but I don't know it, except from a distance.  I knew an Irish/Italian family from there and they talked about the in-fighting and how it affected them directly as a family of Irish males who married Italian females. 

So Robb may not be entirely off base here.
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 01:00:19 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 01:09:14 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

I have often been told that our Pennsylvania provides a distorted view of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches...

Personally I think we could use more of this kind of "distortion!!"

Mary
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.

 Wink...He is not one to back down from a perspective that's for sure.

On the other hand just east of me on I-80 is Hazleton and in Hazleton, PA the Irish and the Italians did NOT get along at all.  I don't know the source of that antagonism but I don't think it was Irish bishop/overlords that started that family feud.  That seems to me to be more of a class war than a religious one...but I don't know it, except from a distance.  I knew an Irish/Italian family from there and they talked about the in-fighting and how it affected them directly as a family of Irish males who married Italian females.  

So Robb may not be entirely off base here.

I can verify what Robb is saying, I'm old enough to remember some of it. In the part of PA I'm from, Irish and Italians, for a very long time, did not socialize and certainly did not intermarry. I remember once case where an Italian girl ran off with the son of an Irish longshoreman. The Italian father disowned her. Interestingly, Italians and Jews did intermarry there, a lot (I'm the end result of one instance of that Smiley

 There was a saying amongst Italians where I grew up (please excuse the crudeness of it): "An Irishman is a N turned inside out".

The reasons for this situation are complex and rooted in history. Southern Italians were very poor, and often worked for landowners who treated them unkindly and for very low pay. The priests often were in cahoots with the landowners, and so Southern Italian men came to see priests (and "the church") as being against them, and many carried this attitude to the New World. This is why many Italian women were religious, but the men, not so much. The Irish held this against them, and also the fact that they did not speak English and were unassimilated. Perhaps Italians and Jews found it easier to marry because they were both more relaxed about religiosity (though of course the Orthodox Jews didn't intermarry!)

This attitude was so deeply ingrained into both the Italians and the Irish that it even affected what parts of our community they lived in. The Irish tended to stay with the Germans and Poles between Front and 4th street, while the Jews and Italians were from 5th street on out.

It also affected me. When I became a RC in my early adult years (18), my street was bordering the "Irish parish", and I technically was supposed to go there. But I chose to go to the Italian parish a few blocks in the other direction instead. Its just as well, since I left not long after to become a Traditional RC, and my new "parish" was a motel banquet hall where the TLM was said in those days. laugh
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 05:57:07 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.

 Wink...He is not one to back down from a perspective that's for sure.

On the other hand just east of me on I-80 is Hazleton and in Hazleton, PA the Irish and the Italians did NOT get along at all.  I don't know the source of that antagonism but I don't think it was Irish bishop/overlords that started that family feud.  That seems to me to be more of a class war than a religious one...but I don't know it, except from a distance.  I knew an Irish/Italian family from there and they talked about the in-fighting and how it affected them directly as a family of Irish males who married Italian females. 

So Robb may not be entirely off base here.

I don't think I am either Grin

The harmonious situation you grew up in was probably caused by Catholics being a minority group as opposed to the Protestant majority population who were their rivals.  When your a minority, it puts a lot of pressure on individuals to get along, as opposed to areas where Catholics were the majority (Like Hazelton).  The stories I know about those times where ones that were passed down to me by my family members as well as accounts that I read in various histories of ethnic groups in America ( which correspond to what I was told growing up).
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 06:01:30 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 06:08:20 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

A crying shame...
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 06:14:46 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.

 Wink...He is not one to back down from a perspective that's for sure.

On the other hand just east of me on I-80 is Hazleton and in Hazleton, PA the Irish and the Italians did NOT get along at all.  I don't know the source of that antagonism but I don't think it was Irish bishop/overlords that started that family feud.  That seems to me to be more of a class war than a religious one...but I don't know it, except from a distance.  I knew an Irish/Italian family from there and they talked about the in-fighting and how it affected them directly as a family of Irish males who married Italian females. 

So Robb may not be entirely off base here.

I don't think I am either Grin

The harmonious situation you grew up in was probably caused by Catholics being a minority group as opposed to the Protestant majority population who were their rivals.  When your a minority, it puts a lot of pressure on individuals to get along, as opposed to areas where Catholics were the majority (Like Hazelton).  The stories I know about those times where ones that were passed down to me by my family members as well as accounts that I read in various histories of ethnic groups in America ( which correspond to what I was told growing up).

Old realities bear you out...to some extent.

In the plague years during the colonial period in Philadelphia, the Irish were the ones to clean up the bodies of the dead and dying poor, not the Africans whose lives and bodies were actually worth something.

But in that same city in the 1950's, Irish and Italian, when living side by side rather than neighborhood, butt up against neighborhood (ghetto), lived together and rather happily.  I don't think I will go with your "minority status" explanation entirely.  South Phillie was quite a bit different from the melting pot in the northwest where I grew up.

They are no single factors that drive those sorts of living arrangements in either direction.  At least I don't think so.
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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 06:21:01 PM »

That's sounds alot like the Italian style of Catholicism I was raised with.  M grandmother used to go to church every Sunday when she got older but not so much when she was younger. We had crucifixes and statues all over the house and considered ourselves Catholics.  Yet we were not so big into following every last rule that the Church perscribed on things like fasting, weekly mas attendance, raising families, and so forth.  Yet, according to my mother, my grandparents were strict with her in who she could date, and other such values which they brought with them from the "old country".

Since my mothers family went to an Irish parish, this created a lot of friction with the very strict, by the book, type of priest who ran things there.  He expected everyone to be completely subservant to all his decrees and was constantly in agitation with my grandparents and the other Italians who attended his church.
This more European way I was raised in has caused me some friction myself with the American churches I've been in and the people who run them.  In the USA, people definitely expect you to practice a super legalistic type of faith if you want to call yourelf religious.  If you are a more laid  back type who beleives in your faith but doesn't beat people (and yourself) over the head with it constantly then people somehow think that you aren't as committed to it as they are.

I grew up in a rural Irish/Italian/Russian parish in central Pennsylvania, when I was not in my city parish in Philadelphia.  It was nothing like you describe here.  I don't know why precisely.  Everyone gossiped jointly and ate together and the grannies all prayed the rosary together before and after mass.  Their common "enemy" were the local protestants who were a distinct majority in the village where I grew up when I was not in Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia I was in a Jewish/Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic neighborhood.  Everybody got along and everybody was orthodox and we celebrated all Catholic and Jewish holy days jointly in some fashion.  Wink

Hush.  Don't upset Robb with reality as opposed to the general caricatures he likes to post about.

 Wink...He is not one to back down from a perspective that's for sure.

On the other hand just east of me on I-80 is Hazleton and in Hazleton, PA the Irish and the Italians did NOT get along at all.  I don't know the source of that antagonism but I don't think it was Irish bishop/overlords that started that family feud.  That seems to me to be more of a class war than a religious one...but I don't know it, except from a distance.  I knew an Irish/Italian family from there and they talked about the in-fighting and how it affected them directly as a family of Irish males who married Italian females. 

So Robb may not be entirely off base here.

I don't think I am either Grin

The harmonious situation you grew up in was probably caused by Catholics being a minority group as opposed to the Protestant majority population who were their rivals.  When your a minority, it puts a lot of pressure on individuals to get along, as opposed to areas where Catholics were the majority (Like Hazelton).  The stories I know about those times where ones that were passed down to me by my family members as well as accounts that I read in various histories of ethnic groups in America ( which correspond to what I was told growing up).

Old realities bear you out...to some extent.

In the plague years during the colonial period in Philadelphia, the Irish were the ones to clean up the bodies of the dead and dying poor, not the Africans whose lives and bodies were actually worth something.

But in that same city in the 1950's, Irish and Italian, when living side by side rather than neighborhood, butt up against neighborhood (ghetto), lived together and rather happily.  I don't think I will go with your "minority status" explanation entirely.  South Phillie was quite a bit different from the melting pot in the northwest where I grew up.

They are no single factors that drive those sorts of living arrangements in either direction.  At least I don't think so.

South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 06:32:36 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 06:45:18 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2011, 06:58:44 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)

Maybe Orthodoxy will tame that wild child!!... Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2011, 07:19:16 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Moi?  angel

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)

Maybe Orthodoxy will tame that wild child!!... Smiley

Moi? Wild? lol   angel


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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2011, 09:05:18 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Moi?  angel

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)

Maybe Orthodoxy will tame that wild child!!... Smiley

Moi? Wild? lol   angel




Shocking!!!   Cool...like finding out there's gambling at Rick's!!!
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2011, 10:06:11 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)

Yeah, for people who don't know South Philly is the Philadelphia equivalent to what Brooklyn is for New Yorker's.  I have relatives who still live there and actually wouldn't mind living in certain parts of South Philly if I had the chance to.  My grandmother grew up there and always told me about the comradery and friendship that often existed between neighbors.  People would sit out on their porches all night and talk to each other.  She always contrasted those days with the present suburban neighborhood she lived in and how unfriendly and cold most suburbanites are (Due to a fortress type of mentality that she thought many of them had).  

Here is a great book on South Philly.  I have a copy and highly recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/South-Philadelphia-Mummers-Memories-Melrose/dp/1566394295
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2011, 10:38:30 PM »



South Philly was definitely a lot different, I grew up there! Smiley

 laugh laugh laugh

That is not a surprise.  Don't ask me why ...It nothing I can put into words.  But its not a bad thing either!!...  Smiley

Heh heh....one thing I recall from my days of relocating to different parts of Philly and surrounding areas (but not so much beyond that)...if I even mentioned that I was from South Philly, people would say (half-joking, half serious), "Ooh, we'd better stay on YOUR good side...don't want to mess with a South Philly girl!"  Grin (for those not in the know: South Philly was and still is a very tough part of town...even the Jews there were mobsters!)

Yeah, for people who don't know South Philly is the Philadelphia equivalent to what Brooklyn is for New Yorker's.  I have relatives who still live there and actually wouldn't mind living in certain parts of South Philly if I had the chance to.  My grandmother grew up there and always told me about the comradery and friendship that often existed between neighbors.  People would sit out on their porches all night and talk to each other.  She always contrasted those days with the present suburban neighborhood she lived in and how unfriendly and cold most suburbanites are (Due to a fortress type of mentality that she thought many of them had).  

I lived in "South Philly #2" (Washington Township) for a few years and hated the suburban life so much we moved away. What your grandmother remembered is what I remember (I might even be almost as old as her, lol!) People would sit outside in beach chairs on summer nights, shooting the breeze....those are memories I will cherish forever. Its my childhood.

At the Italian bakeries, everybody would form a line that went around the block for zeppole on St Joseph's Day (March 19th); boys would play stickball with halfies (pimple balls cut in half), which would end up on the roof and my Mom would go crazy cleaning the roof off, lol; kids made scooters out of wooden fruit crates and metal skate wheels....I can still hear the sound of them going down the street in them....so many memories. SIGH

That book you linked to was written by a good friend of my Dad's, another Jew from South Philly! I also have a copy. You might also like, "The Jews of South Philadelphia" as well as "The Italians of Philadelphia". Interestingly, each book was written by friends of mine, and I supplied some of the info on the abandoned synagogues of South Philly for one of the books. Amazon sells them too:

http://www.amazon.com/Italians-Philadelphia-PA-Images-America/dp/0738550205/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310438632&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Community-Philadelphia-America-Arcadia-Publishing/dp/073854955X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310438733&sr=8-1

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« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 09:43:13 AM »

It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite. 

I'm confused by "both Orthodox and Eastern rite". Do you mean that the Orthodox were WRO?
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« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 10:32:00 AM »

It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite. 

I'm confused by "both Orthodox and Eastern rite". Do you mean that the Orthodox were WRO?

He means "Eastern rite Catholics".  It's common shorthand. Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 10:54:21 AM »

While I certainly can't comment on what it was like growing up in Pennsylvania or other areas like that, here's a p.s. for you: everyone in the U.S. is an ethnic American of some variety. Everyone's family came from somewhere else (except Native Americans, of course!) - the only difference is sooner or later.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 11:21:05 AM »

While I certainly can't comment on what it was like growing up in Pennsylvania or other areas like that, here's a p.s. for you: everyone in the U.S. is an ethnic American of some variety. Everyone's family came from somewhere else (except Native Americans, of course!) - the only difference is sooner or later.

Is there a point here? 
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 11:27:42 AM »

It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite. 

I'm confused by "both Orthodox and Eastern rite". Do you mean that the Orthodox were WRO?

He means "Eastern rite Catholics".  It's common shorthand. Smiley

You may be right about it being "common". A lot of questionable things are "common".

:thoughtful:
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 12:03:41 PM »

While I certainly can't comment on what it was like growing up in Pennsylvania or other areas like that, here's a p.s. for you: everyone in the U.S. is an ethnic American of some variety. Everyone's family came from somewhere else (except Native Americans, of course!) - the only difference is sooner or later.

Is there a point here? 

Oh, sorry that I was not clear enough - let me try to clarify for you: I was expressing an opinion about a couple of posts here, comparing "plain old vanilla Americans" with the wonderful rich culture of "ethnics." On the contrary, everyone in America is a "hyphenated American" and can claim a rich ethnic heritage, whether or not they choose to emphasize or dwell on it.
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« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2011, 12:09:47 PM »

While I certainly can't comment on what it was like growing up in Pennsylvania or other areas like that, here's a p.s. for you: everyone in the U.S. is an ethnic American of some variety. Everyone's family came from somewhere else (except Native Americans, of course!) - the only difference is sooner or later.

Is there a point here? 

Oh, sorry that I was not clear enough - let me try to clarify for you: I was expressing an opinion about a couple of posts here, comparing "plain old vanilla Americans" with the wonderful rich culture of "ethnics." On the contrary, everyone in America is a "hyphenated American" and can claim a rich ethnic heritage, whether or not they choose to emphasize or dwell on it.

"Preserve" would be an alternate verb to express what some cultural and linguistic groups do.

My daughter is bi-racial and she does what is commonly called code-switching.  She fits well in any one of several social and familial settings and has the education to allow her to make it all pretty seamless.  What she preserves is an internal calm amidst the noise of family and friends from a variety of walks of life.  I think she is pretty sterling an example of the melting pot.

I have never met a "plain old white bread" American, though I've met more than my fair share of gummy white bread consumers... Cheesy

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« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2011, 12:35:07 PM »

Even though I'm just an overzealous former Protestant convert to Catholicism, this thread has been an interesting read.
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« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2011, 12:37:20 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

A crying shame...
All of this is true from one still there. Until a few years ago, there was a locally owned oldies rock station that used to play Christmas music on the new & old calendar dates and every Sunday would broadcast the Divine Liturgy from Sts. Cyril & Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church in Olyphant, Pa. These passing images will probably cease altogether in the next decade as the RCC (& probably Orthodox) parishes will sadly fade into oblivion.
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2011, 12:57:54 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

A crying shame...
All of this is true from one still there. Until a few years ago, there was a locally owned oldies rock station that used to play Christmas music on the new & old calendar dates and every Sunday would broadcast the Divine Liturgy from Sts. Cyril & Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church in Olyphant, Pa. These passing images will probably cease altogether in the next decade as the RCC (& probably Orthodox) parishes will sadly fade into oblivion.

Sits and stares at monitor with chin resting on fists...

Any ideas?
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« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2011, 01:16:00 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.
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« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2011, 01:25:30 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

A crying shame...
All of this is true from one still there. Until a few years ago, there was a locally owned oldies rock station that used to play Christmas music on the new & old calendar dates and every Sunday would broadcast the Divine Liturgy from Sts. Cyril & Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church in Olyphant, Pa. These passing images will probably cease altogether in the next decade as the RCC (& probably Orthodox) parishes will sadly fade into oblivion.

Sits and stares at monitor with chin resting on fists...

Any ideas?
I remember as a youth I used to snicker at polkas & yet had a most offbeat & reverential attitude towards & still listen to them on the radio at times.
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« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2011, 01:55:12 PM »

I have never met a "plain old white bread" American, though I've met more than my fair share of gummy white bread consumers... Cheesy


Exactly! Grin
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« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2011, 06:28:10 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!
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« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2011, 07:59:38 PM »

I have never met a "plain old white bread" American, though I've met more than my fair share of gummy white bread consumers... Cheesy


Exactly! Grin

I LOVE it when we agree!!!!!!!!.... laugh
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« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2011, 08:01:34 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink
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« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2011, 08:19:06 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.
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« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2011, 07:47:40 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.
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« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2011, 08:54:26 AM »

In the plague years during the colonial period in Philadelphia, the Irish were the ones to clean up the bodies of the dead and dying poor, not the Africans whose lives and bodies were actually worth something.




The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves
The Slaves That Time Forgot

By John Martin

They came as slaves; vast human cargo transported on tall British ships bound for the Americas. They were shipped by the hundreds of thousands and included men, women, and even the youngest of children.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/

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« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2011, 09:19:36 AM »

This is not completely related to the OP, but I was reminded of this when reading it.

My great grandparents came to the USA from Poland in the 1860's.  They were very religious.  My great grandfather had a rather large farm, and would always let gypsies camp out on the farm overnight, as much as my grandmother protested. I'm told that they would go outside and pray the rosary with them.  The only price for staying on his land, my great grandfather told them, was that they had to join the family for mass the next morning.  I'm told that I even have relatives from that family who married gypsies!

interesting side-note:  My grandmother told me that if a gypsy ever comes to your door, make the sign of the cross and say "Mother of God, protect me" so that they won't hypnotize you and steel the silver  Wink

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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Triderntine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.
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« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2011, 10:19:04 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Triderntine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.

I think you are mistaken on a couple of points here with respect to Orthodoxy but I am not going to argue them with you.  I think your position does Orthodoxy a disservice. 

But I do see your difficulty with obedience when it does not align itself with your own determinations.  I don't think that is unusual at all.  I think it is a poor reason to reject the Church of your baptism.  I would say much the same thing to a person leaving the Roman rite for an eastern Catholic jurisdiction also for the same expressed reasons...in fact I have said the same thing.  Except they are not participating in schism...so that part is left out.

It is difficult to say these things because at some level they are a cut across your person as well as your perspective, and I like you, and hope you will find interior peace...On the other hand I don't expect to change your mind so in that sense what I say or think is harmless.

M.
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« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2011, 10:45:21 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Triderntine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.

I think you are mistaken on a couple of points here with respect to Orthodoxy but I am not going to argue them with you.  I think your position does Orthodoxy a disservice.  

But I do see your difficulty with obedience when it does not align itself with your own determinations.  I don't think that is unusual at all.  I think it is a poor reason to reject the Church of your baptism.  I would say much the same thing to a person leaving the Roman rite for an eastern Catholic jurisdiction also for the same expressed reasons...in fact I have said the same thing.  Except they are not participating in schism...so that part is left out.

It is difficult to say these things because at some level they are a cut across your person as well as your perspective, and I like you, and hope you will find interior peace...On the other hand I don't expect to change your mind so in that sense what I say or think is harmless.

M.

This article helped me make my decision: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/rome_orth.aspx I'm glad I stumbled upon it, because it addressed the real crux of my issue.

You see, a number of years ago, I worked with a few others in anti-cult work, to get kids out of mindcontrol cults (Moonies, Hare Krsnas, Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, etc) One central aspect of all these groups is a  very high priority placed on unquestioning obedience to the group leaders. So when a church tells me I must obey no matter what, my antenna goes up right away.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 11:03:18 AM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2011, 11:39:57 AM »

interesting side-note:  My grandmother told me that if a gypsy ever comes to your door, make the sign of the cross and say "Mother of God, protect me" so that they won't hypnotize you and steel the silver  Wink



I was talking with a GOA bishop from Greece who said (I'm not entirely sure how the subject of gypsies came up in our conversation) that his grandmother wouldn't let him go out and play when the gypsies came through: "because they steal blue-eyed children!" Oddly enough, my Southern Baptist great-grandmother told my blue-eyed mother the same thing, when she was a child!
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« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 11:44:13 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Triderntine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.

I think you are mistaken on a couple of points here with respect to Orthodoxy but I am not going to argue them with you.  I think your position does Orthodoxy a disservice.  

But I do see your difficulty with obedience when it does not align itself with your own determinations.  I don't think that is unusual at all.  I think it is a poor reason to reject the Church of your baptism.  I would say much the same thing to a person leaving the Roman rite for an eastern Catholic jurisdiction also for the same expressed reasons...in fact I have said the same thing.  Except they are not participating in schism...so that part is left out.

It is difficult to say these things because at some level they are a cut across your person as well as your perspective, and I like you, and hope you will find interior peace...On the other hand I don't expect to change your mind so in that sense what I say or think is harmless.

M.

This article helped me make my decision: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/rome_orth.aspx I'm glad I stumbled upon it, because it addressed the real crux of my issue.

You see, a number of years ago, I worked with a few others in anti-cult work, to get kids out of mindcontrol cults (Moonies, Hare Krsnas, Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, etc) One central aspect of all these groups is a  very high priority placed on unquestioning obedience to the group leaders. So when a church tells me I must obey no matter what, my antenna goes up right away.

And how do you feel about the traditional Orthodox understanding of obeying one's spiritual father? 
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« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2011, 11:49:40 AM »

interesting side-note:  My grandmother told me that if a gypsy ever comes to your door, make the sign of the cross and say "Mother of God, protect me" so that they won't hypnotize you and steel the silver  Wink



I was talking with a GOA bishop from Greece who said (I'm not entirely sure how the subject of gypsies came up in our conversation) that his grandmother wouldn't let him go out and play when the gypsies came through: "because they steal blue-eyed children!" Oddly enough, my Southern Baptist great-grandmother told my blue-eyed mother the same thing, when she was a child!

I really have never understood the contempt and dislike many Europeans seem to have for the Romani people (erroneously called "gypsies" due to the belief that the originated in Egypt...they actually came from India originally.)

Did you know that the "gypsies" never kidnapped anyones children, but in Bohemia and Moravia, they actually had their children kidnapped from them, to be raised as non-"gypsies"? Sometimes non-"gypsy" children would run away and join them, and this led to the mistaken belief that they kidnapped the children...similar to the way kids in this country used to say they were going to "run away and join the circus".
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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

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Xenia1918
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2011, 11:51:51 AM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Tridentine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.

I think you are mistaken on a couple of points here with respect to Orthodoxy but I am not going to argue them with you.  I think your position does Orthodoxy a disservice.  

But I do see your difficulty with obedience when it does not align itself with your own determinations.  I don't think that is unusual at all.  I think it is a poor reason to reject the Church of your baptism.  I would say much the same thing to a person leaving the Roman rite for an eastern Catholic jurisdiction also for the same expressed reasons...in fact I have said the same thing.  Except they are not participating in schism...so that part is left out.

It is difficult to say these things because at some level they are a cut across your person as well as your perspective, and I like you, and hope you will find interior peace...On the other hand I don't expect to change your mind so in that sense what I say or think is harmless.

M.

This article helped me make my decision: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/rome_orth.aspx I'm glad I stumbled upon it, because it addressed the real crux of my issue.

You see, a number of years ago, I worked with a few others in anti-cult work, to get kids out of mindcontrol cults (Moonies, Hare Krsnas, Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, etc) One central aspect of all these groups is a  very high priority placed on unquestioning obedience to the group leaders. So when a church tells me I must obey no matter what, my antenna goes up right away.

And how do you feel about the traditional Orthodox understanding of obeying one's spiritual father?  

I have no problem with it at all, as long as he is orthodox (lower case "o" as well as upper case "O"). My issue is with BLIND, UNTHINKING obedience, not obedience that is fully informed by the teachings and canons of the ancient Church. For example, if a priest told me to stop attending the Divine Liturgy and instead go to one held by a renegade liberal "Orthodox" church that has female priests and has clown Divine Liturgies (God forbid), do you think I'm going to obey him?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 11:54:53 AM by Xenia1918 » Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2011, 12:04:16 PM »

interesting side-note:  My grandmother told me that if a gypsy ever comes to your door, make the sign of the cross and say "Mother of God, protect me" so that they won't hypnotize you and steel the silver  Wink



I was talking with a GOA bishop from Greece who said (I'm not entirely sure how the subject of gypsies came up in our conversation) that his grandmother wouldn't let him go out and play when the gypsies came through: "because they steal blue-eyed children!" Oddly enough, my Southern Baptist great-grandmother told my blue-eyed mother the same thing, when she was a child!

I really have never understood the contempt and dislike many Europeans seem to have for the Romani people (erroneously called "gypsies" due to the belief that the originated in Egypt...they actually came from India originally.)

Did you know that the "gypsies" never kidnapped anyones children, but in Bohemia and Moravia, they actually had their children kidnapped from them, to be raised as non-"gypsies"? Sometimes non-"gypsy" children would run away and join them, and this led to the mistaken belief that they kidnapped the children...similar to the way kids in this country used to say they were going to "run away and join the circus".

Probably because they are the ultimate "xeni." There were, and still are, Irish "gypsies" who traveled throughout the South: Irish Travellers. I remember seeing their horse-drawn wagons as a child - though now of course they are settled and have SUVs and pick ups. There is a community of them outside Augusta, GA. They are very clannish. When they still travelled, they were horse and mule traders and would come through Atlanta twice a year for baptisms, marriages and funerals at Sacred Heart.
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« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »



I have no problem with it at all, as long as he is orthodox (lower case "o" as well as upper case "O"). My issue is with BLIND, UNTHINKING obedience, not obedience that is fully informed by the teachings and canons of the ancient Church. For example, if a priest told me to stop attending the Divine Liturgy and instead go to one held by a renegade liberal "Orthodox" church that has female priests and has clown Divine Liturgies (God forbid), do you think I'm going to obey him?

I am not going to dwell too heavily on the fact that you are over-stating the so-called evils of the Novus Ordo...and you certainly are.

However:

1) The Catholic Church has never asked, much less demanded, "blind" obedience of faith.  The Church does request obedience of will and intellect in all things but sin...thereby strongly recommending that one consider how the teaching, or action of the Church might be correct, before we attack it for being heretical or evil.

2) Orthodoxy asks the same thing in fact.  Which is why I think your reasons for becoming Orthodox could use a very serious bit of rethinking.

M.
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« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2011, 12:42:22 PM »

I lived in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  In our parish school [I was Polish Catholic at the time], during my freshman year, we had a student who was Russian Orthodox.  Before she arrived the nuns told us about her and her religion and that we were to respect her and her beliefs.  At the same time, one of my classmates was Protestant and never did the nuns try to convert him.  It was common to see many golden-domed churches with 3-bar crosses, both Orthodox and Eastern rite.  Every year on January 7th, our local tv stations always had an announcement greeting those who celebrated Christmas on the Julian calendar.  Everyone got along very fine.

Pennsylvania is/was the heartland of American Orthodoxy.  I guess that the population has unfortunately declined in recnet years due to the collapse of the coal/steel industry and many young people have moved out of state to more greener pastures.  I've heard that there are many beautiful Orthodox parishes which used to have thousands of members in the old days, and now can only clam a few hundred (if that).  Same goes for the RC churches.  It's a shame.

I remember one monk refering to PA as the "Holy Land of the US" due to all the golden domes and 3-bar crosses.  AHH, the good old days.

This is one reason why I consider myself blessed to have been born and raised in PA, and since we plan to move to western PA once my husband retires (where his family is from and still resides), I don't think I will ever have a problem with finding an Orthodox parish! Smiley

We once drove through a town called Minersville, when we last went to see his family....3 bar crosses and gold domes EVERYWHERE!

You WILL love it.  From my house to your house...future house...is indeed a holy land in America.  That is no joke!!...Maybe I'll even come and visit!!... Wink

I'm sure it will be heaven on earth! Where I am now there are a lot of Orthodox churches too, but not as many as in western PA. I might even be able to go to a ROCOR parish out there, since I know there are a lot of them in western PA. Here there is only one and its far from my home.

I think you may be the only person here, poised to leave the Catholic Church, that I can say I am actually sorry that you are leaving the Catholic Church.  I suppose it is because I am not following your reasoning for rejecting the Catholic Church.  I hope I don't get into trouble for saying so.  Generally I will support someone moving for the salvation of their souls regardless of rationale...but I don't hear that from you.  I suppose I am curious and have just screwed up the courage to say so...

M.

Its complicated (btw there is an Orthodox Christian poster on here---Marc1152--who asked me to stay with the RCC because he dislikes some of my views on the religion of my birth...Judaism). He felt the Orthodox Church has enough people who are critical of Judaism, and he felt the RCC could better afford to keep me. So you're not the only one who would like me to stay Roman Catholic.

My primary reason for leaving is because I finally came to understand the difference between the way the RCC views church authority and the way the Orthodox church does.

Because of my attachment to the Traditional RC church and Tridentine Mass as opposed to the post-V2 RCC, I came to have issues with the idea of authority, esp. when I feel the church is telling me to believe or do something that goes against centuries of church practice and teaching. Once I understood that in the Orthodox church, the first fidelity is to the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, as opposed to what a modern clergy might be telling us to do, I understood what, in my view, is the "true church".

The RCC stresses obedience above all else. I had issues with that when it came to the Tridentine Mass and the rest of pre-V2 Catholicism. I was not about to switch from the Tridentine Mass to clown Masses, just because an RCC cleric told me to do so. Fidelity to the Truth, to me, is more important than obedience to a clergyman.

In Orthodoxy, if even a metropolitan tells you to believe something different from what the Church Fathers taught or what Scriptures teach, an Orthodox Christian is dutybound to break communion with him.

I find it ironic that my love of TRADITIONAL Catholicism is what led me to this point. I have since come to have other issues too, such as doubting papal infallibility and a few others. But the crux of it is the authority issue.

I think you are mistaken on a couple of points here with respect to Orthodoxy but I am not going to argue them with you.  I think your position does Orthodoxy a disservice.  

But I do see your difficulty with obedience when it does not align itself with your own determinations.  I don't think that is unusual at all.  I think it is a poor reason to reject the Church of your baptism.  I would say much the same thing to a person leaving the Roman rite for an eastern Catholic jurisdiction also for the same expressed reasons...in fact I have said the same thing.  Except they are not participating in schism...so that part is left out.

It is difficult to say these things because at some level they are a cut across your person as well as your perspective, and I like you, and hope you will find interior peace...On the other hand I don't expect to change your mind so in that sense what I say or think is harmless.

M.

This article helped me make my decision: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/rome_orth.aspx I'm glad I stumbled upon it, because it addressed the real crux of my issue.

You see, a number of years ago, I worked with a few others in anti-cult work, to get kids out of mindcontrol cults (Moonies, Hare Krsnas, Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, etc) One central aspect of all these groups is a  very high priority placed on unquestioning obedience to the group leaders. So when a church tells me I must obey no matter what, my antenna goes up right away.

And how do you feel about the traditional Orthodox understanding of obeying one's spiritual father?  

I have no problem with it at all, as long as he is orthodox (lower case "o" as well as upper case "O"). My issue is with BLIND, UNTHINKING obedience, not obedience that is fully informed by the teachings and canons of the ancient Church. For example, if a priest told me to stop attending the Divine Liturgy and instead go to one held by a renegade liberal "Orthodox" church that has female priests and has clown Divine Liturgies (God forbid), do you think I'm going to obey him?

I can only say that you are in for a rude awakening, as there certainly are Orthodox priests whose attitudes mirror those of the Baby Boomer RC priests who are fast going the way of the dodo.  Relativism is not the sole property of certain Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2011, 01:01:50 PM »


I can only say that you are in for a rude awakening, as there certainly are Orthodox priests whose attitudes mirror those of the Baby Boomer RC priests who are fast going the way of the dodo.  Relativism is not the sole property of certain Roman Catholics.

Simply as an aside:  Have you been following the two opposing Facebook groups dealing with issues of human sexuality in Orthodoxy?...specifically the OCA in terms of home jurisdiction for many of the correspondents.

One of the clear messages of the more traditional grouping is the fact that the "Church says no..." when it comes to the reception or non-reception of active homosexuals at the chalice.

Certainly the opposing group is raising stiff opposition to the proscription against active homosexual behaviors using Scripture and Tradition.

The outcome taken to its logical conclusion for those excluded is to schism and form their own Church who, in their eyes, are more faithful to the teachings of Jesus, Scripture and Tradition.
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« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2011, 01:20:37 PM »

Nope, I had no idea it was going on and will most likely forget about it by the end of the day Smiley
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« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2011, 01:37:57 PM »

Nope, I had no idea it was going on and will most likely forget about it by the end of the day Smiley

The population of Orthodoxy in this country is small enough so that I don't think it should be ignored...entirely.  I am not sure that Schultz needs to burden an otherwise peaceful life... Wink
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« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2011, 02:19:38 PM »

Nope, I had no idea it was going on and will most likely forget about it by the end of the day Smiley

The population of Orthodoxy in this country is small enough so that I don't think it should be ignored...entirely.  I am not sure that Schultz needs to burden an otherwise peaceful life... Wink

As a Catholic, I was fond of saying, "I'm glad I'm not the Pope!"

As an Orthodox, I can say the same thing, only change Pope to Metropolitan (being a member of the OCA).

When I have some modicum of control over my own passions and vices, perhaps I'll turn an eye to pointless bickering amongst the Interneteratti (tm) on facebook, of all places.
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« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2011, 02:24:47 PM »

Nope, I had no idea it was going on and will most likely forget about it by the end of the day Smiley

The population of Orthodoxy in this country is small enough so that I don't think it should be ignored...entirely.  I am not sure that Schultz needs to burden an otherwise peaceful life... Wink

As a Catholic, I was fond of saying, "I'm glad I'm not the Pope!"

As an Orthodox, I can say the same thing, only change Pope to Metropolitan (being a member of the OCA).

When I have some modicum of control over my own passions and vices, perhaps I'll turn an eye to pointless bickering amongst the Interneteratti (tm) on facebook, of all places.

As these things tend to go, I find these two groups actually catching my interest more often than not.  It's not terribly strident on either side though there are moments...but they can be easily ignored.  I joined up with both just to read and see what is available electronically in terms of Orthodox responses.  Some pretty good things, I think.

M.
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Xenia1918
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« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2011, 03:33:28 PM »

I'm friends with a few Orthodox priests, and I find that listening to their advice is often a very good thing. One that I've been sharing a lot of my thoughts and feelings with advises against internet messageboards designed for Orthodox Christians, he said anyone can join, and say anything they want...and he thinks its not a good venue for newbies to Orthodoxy to be at. He said that the RCC is not the only church that has been infected with modernists and liberals, and that one can be led astray very easily in fora like this one.
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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

REAL RC: http://www.traditionalmass.org
REAL OC: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
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« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2011, 03:52:43 PM »

I'm friends with a few Orthodox priests, and I find that listening to their advice is often a very good thing. One that I've been sharing a lot of my thoughts and feelings with advises against internet messageboards designed for Orthodox Christians, he said anyone can join, and say anything they want...and he thinks its not a good venue for newbies to Orthodoxy to be at. He said that the RCC is not the only church that has been infected with modernists and liberals, and that one can be led astray very easily in fora like this one.

Well...we'll miss you... Wink
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Peter J
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« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2011, 04:42:13 PM »

Nope, I had no idea it was going on and will most likely forget about it by the end of the day Smiley

Never fear, before I go to bed I'll post a reminder.   angel
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 04:46:56 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
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