OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 08:33:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pedophalia/incest encouraged encouraged by German parenting guide (graphic)  (Read 6473 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pilgrim
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 304



« on: September 11, 2009, 09:11:00 PM »

G.K. Chesterton: "When men cease to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing anything." 

http://www.tpuc.org/node/151

This quote sums it up:

------------------
"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father's body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same."
------------------
Logged

Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth help us to walk the way of Life, which is Christ Jesus.

St. Cyril, St. Leo, and St. Severus pray that the Church may be united and one, Eastern and Oriental.St. Issac the Syrian, pray that Assyria would return to the Holy Church. St. Gregory, pray for Rom
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 10:46:56 AM »

Holy Theotokos! Shocked
So, they do censor Nazi salutes, swastikas and Holocaust denials, but they're gonna let this "guide" out there?
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
Pilgrim
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 304



« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 01:32:20 PM »

Lord Have Mercy...they are. St. Boniface, pray for us.
Logged

Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth help us to walk the way of Life, which is Christ Jesus.

St. Cyril, St. Leo, and St. Severus pray that the Church may be united and one, Eastern and Oriental.St. Issac the Syrian, pray that Assyria would return to the Holy Church. St. Gregory, pray for Rom
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 447


« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 02:11:58 PM »

those darn atheists and their lack of morals. 
Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 02:24:41 PM »

Can anyone interpret this?
http://www.infodienst.bzga.de/bot_tease ... -1695.html

This is “supposedly” about a seminar, occurring on 9-20-09, on the two pamphlets, Love, Body and Playing Doctor.  The title is the same as the booklet, Körper, Liebe, Doktorspiele.

Another website states that the pamphlets were recalled in Germany but have reappeared in Switzerland.
(complete address removed by ms.hoorah for graphic sexual description)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
From cited article:
“A massive outcry by parents groups - and a police probe led to the booklet being recalled in Germany.
Now it has emerged again in Switzerland and critics are demanding authorities ban it.
A spokesman for the Swiss office for social insurance a federal organization that oversees social and family policies said: "We were quite baffled to read the tips in this book. We have asked the responsible organizations to check the contents of the guide.”
-----------------
Lord have mercy!  St. Michael the Archangel, protect the children!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 02:29:15 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
Pilgrim
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 304



« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »

Lord Jesus, save thy children. Even the pagans of old were better than this. This....this is barbarism.
Logged

Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth help us to walk the way of Life, which is Christ Jesus.

St. Cyril, St. Leo, and St. Severus pray that the Church may be united and one, Eastern and Oriental.St. Issac the Syrian, pray that Assyria would return to the Holy Church. St. Gregory, pray for Rom
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 11:36:29 PM »

This sick movement to legitimize pedophilia hides under the guise of a crack addict’s, Sigmund Freud, sexual repression theories.  The hero of these pedophiles, Freud, theorized that all neuroses were derived from childhood sexual abuse. Will neuroses soon be glorified to support pedos?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 11:38:04 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,808



« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 01:01:15 AM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 02:09:11 AM »

Shock! Horror! Gasp!  Roll Eyes
Oh how I look forward to seeing the egg on all your faces when you realise where this "information" comes from and what "Tpuc.org" is really about.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2009, 02:31:39 AM »

This is a Babelfish translation, which I have tidied up...it's pretty rough, as I'm not used to such technically German vocabulary...

http://isp-dortmund.de/angebote-sexualpaedagogik/offene-seminare/koerper-liebe-doktorspiele-43.html

----------------------------

Body, love, playing doctor
Discussing forms of childhood sexuality (? this is what I think it means, not a direct translation)

A seminar offer for educators.

Body investigations, playing doctor, curiosity behavior and sense learning: A well-informed, self-assured and respectful sexual education guide for children and their sensuous-physical learning processes in the mechanisms for children is part of the educational mission of teachers. Action security in the everyday life is however often small and in appearing problematic situations is missing a technical basis for one to company of the children and their parents appropriately.

The offered seminar would like educators to support making a skillful sexual education available to children. The seminar also aims to strengthen the educator's knowledge in the area of sex education.

Fundamental information is given about the body and sexual development in pre-school children and concrete everyday life situations are considered, which encourage involvement in sexual education: When should one intervene, what can one permit? How can protection and promotion of world investigation go together? How does a guide, which is supportive of sexuality, respectfully and carefully succeed?

Current books and sexual education media are presented. Participants will receive extensive seminar documents with technical texts.

--------

Let me reemphasize, this is really a rough translation....
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Pilgrim
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Jurisdiction: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 304



« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2009, 03:40:10 AM »

Shock! Horror! Gasp!  Roll Eyes
Oh how I look forward to seeing the egg on all your faces when you realise where this "information" comes from and what "Tpuc.org" is really about.

Please, enlighten us. And, please God, let this be some sort of sick joke sight.
Logged

Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth help us to walk the way of Life, which is Christ Jesus.

St. Cyril, St. Leo, and St. Severus pray that the Church may be united and one, Eastern and Oriental.St. Issac the Syrian, pray that Assyria would return to the Holy Church. St. Gregory, pray for Rom
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 04:39:51 PM »

Shock! Horror! Gasp!  Roll Eyes
Oh how I look forward to seeing the egg on all your faces when you realise where this "information" comes from and what "Tpuc.org" is really about.
The tpuc=The Peoples United Community=group that wants the UK out of the EU.  Are you saying, ozgeorge, that this sicko guidebook was created by the tpuc for the sole purpose of encourage Brits to leave the EU? Are you saying that this guidebook was fraudulently published with the  German Ministry of Family Affairs' name written on it?

I searched for Polizist stories/warrants/arrests on your concept of this pedo "guidebook" being fraudulent. I found none.
I did find this on thesun.co.uk.  Are they collaborating with the tpuc?

"Available from the Kinderschutz Schweiz, an independent Swiss organisation for the prevention of sexual violence, it includes advice on massaging the sexual organs of children aged between one and three.

In Germany public prosecutors investigated but took no action after they received complaints from mothers who branded the pamphlet a "call for child abuse".

The so-called "guidebook for parents for children's sexual education from ages 1-3" urged parents to "combine the necessities with the amenities", as a German saying goes, by tickling, petting, caressing and kissing the child in various places when cleaning it."

Here is a Polish newspaper's investigation on this guidebook.  Are they also in collaboration with the tpuc?
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html

"According to the Polish daily newspaper Rzeczpospolita, the BZgA booklet is an obligatory read in nine German regions. It is used for training nursery, kindergarten and elementary school teachers. Ironically it is recommended by many organizations officially fighting pedophilia, such as the German Kunderschutzbund. BZgA sends out millions of copies of the booklet every year."

« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 05:08:59 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 06:33:57 PM »

Here is a Polish newspaper's investigation on this guidebook.  Are they also in collaboration with the tpuc?
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html

Errr..Ms. Hoorah, its the same stupid article word for word as the tpuc.org article. Roll Eyes

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 06:33:57 PM »

Please, enlighten us.
No, I don't think I shall. I'm rather enjoying the schadenfreude.

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 06:34:28 PM »

Here is the name of a German book which cites and criticizes the pedo guidebooks:
"Ausbruch zur Liebe" author Gabriele Kuby, a sociologist

Here is the name of a German newspaper that published a very critical article
of these pedo guidebooks.
"Die Junge Freiheit" editor Dieter Stein. 
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jul/07073105.html

This is an interesting article written by Gabriele Kuby about gender mainstreaming and child sexualization (notice she discusses the German guidebook.)
http://michaeljournal.org/gender.htm
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 06:41:55 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 06:35:35 PM »

Is the interpretation of the same BZgA guidebook, written by Michael O'OBrian (a Canadian man who is a religious imagery painter) also to assist the tpuc?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 06:40:14 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 06:49:13 PM »

^ Gabriele Kuby's, the German sociologist, article in a Catholic newspaper. Read page 14. Suppose the RC Church also colludes with tpuc?
http://www.versdemain.org/jf09EN.pdf

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.
IMO, the movement responsible for this guidebook is even more disgusting than NAMBLA.

On the topic of disgusting, it was an all-time low for the ACLU to defend NAMBLA’s “freedom of speech” pro bono. Soon will it be “Pedophalia - another lifestyle choice that must be protected from Christian oppressors.”

NAMBLA now has a “Support a Pedo in Prison Program” on their website.  NAMBLA members can happily send cash to canteen accounts of incarcerated pedos, some of whom murdered their child victims.


« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 07:07:13 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2009, 06:59:02 PM »

Here is the brochure discussed.
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/587ba2826ef77905.pdf

Here is the brochure “Body, love and playing doctor” on the BZgA website.
http://english.forschung.sexualaufklaerung.de/2577.0.html

Logged
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 07:45:25 PM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.

That is a good point, because the truth is everybody wants to be happy. The Sodomites can now practice their debauchery without being locked up or burned at the stake, and so now the pedos are saying "hey, if they can do their thing why can't I do mine?"
Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2009, 07:56:48 PM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.

That is a good point, because the truth is everybody wants to be happy. The Sodomites can now practice their debauchery without being locked up or burned at the stake, and so now the pedos are saying "hey, if they can do their thing why can't I do mine?"


I do not believe a paedophile would be truly 'happy' if he or she mo.lested a child. I think it must be a tormented state to be in, but I can't imagine any person except the utterly insane being happy with that action.

Paedophilia is a form of rape, and rape is a horrible crime.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 07:57:48 PM by Liz » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2009, 08:14:10 PM »

I translated into English many pages of this brochure and this is part of page 21.

“Perhaps you with the last proposals to handling your daughter and/or your son doubts came whether so much direct physical contact is at all permissible. Possibly you are disconcerted by the reporting in the media, whether it is permitted at all „“to bathe together with your child or to make Sundays raving plays in bed, with those you possibly both (or the whole family) are naked. Perhaps you are anxious to you, one could such a behavior as „sexual abuse “lay out. Which is, if you are now observed or someone from the family something misleading far-counts…? A consequence could be that important and beautiful tender Umgangsformen omitted in particular from fathers will be omitted in order under wrong suspicion.

Hmm....."Make Sundays a day to play in bed naked with your children.”  I'm glad my father passed on this tender "Umgangsformen".
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 09:17:00 PM »

Yes. Here is the brochure discussed on a website entitled:
"AboveTopSecret.com: Conspiracy Theories, UFOs, Politics And Many Other Alternative Topics".
Checking your sources with your usual scrutiny I see.

Here is the brochure “Body, love and playing doctor” on the BZgA website.
http://english.forschung.sexualaufklaerung.de/2577.0.html
TRhank you for this link to the brochure. Would you care to quote from this source on this thread to prove your case?
Keep digging. Give my regards to the Earth's core.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 09:31:10 PM »

Yes. Here is the brochure discussed on a website entitled:
"AboveTopSecret.com: Conspiracy Theories, UFOs, Politics And Many Other Alternative Topics".
Checking your sources with your usual scrutiny I see.

Here is the brochure “Body, love and playing doctor” on the BZgA website.
http://english.forschung.sexualaufklaerung.de/2577.0.html
TRhank you for this link to the brochure. Would you care to quote from this source on this thread to prove your case?
Keep digging. Give my regards to the Earth's core.
I would be happy to use the publishing company's site for a reference to show others this brochure except they no longer publish it and the brochure cannot be seen in detail on their site.  Hmmm...wonder why?  Could it be that it brought disrepute to their publishing company?

Perhaps someone could find the July 9, 2007 edition of the Polish daily “Rzeczpospolita” by Aleksandra Rybinska about this German guidebook on Body, Love, and Playing Doctor....since ozgeorge won’t accept the RC Church or other Christian magazine opinions on this "guidebook".
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 09:47:01 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 10:14:16 PM »

Here is a German site, Institute for Sexual Pedagogik, where one might find this guidebook/brochure still in stock.  See the 11th picture down.  (Körper, Liebe, Doktorspiele  BZgA, Köln 2001)
http://www.isp-dortmund.de/institut-sexualpaedagogik/veroeffentlichungen.html
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 10:16:16 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,871


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 10:59:31 PM »

Ms.hoorah, it seems that the publisher you linked to in your last post no longer stocks this booklet:

Diese Broschüren werden leider nicht mehr neu aufgelegt. (Unfortunately, these brochures are no longer available.)

Here, though, from the same site, is commentary in German on the booklet:

http://isp-dortmund.de/aktuelles_archiv.html

Logged
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2009, 11:43:40 PM »

Ms.hoorah, it seems that the publisher you linked to in your last post no longer stocks this booklet:

Diese Broschüren werden leider nicht mehr neu aufgelegt. (Unfortunately, these brochures are no longer available.)

Here, though, from the same site, is commentary in German on the booklet:

http://isp-dortmund.de/aktuelles_archiv.html


Thank you LBK.  In an interview with the author of the pedo guidebook, the author defends herself from a journalist from Spiegel Online.

This question answers the argument on the authenticity of the pedo “guidebook” and its Christian magazines’ reviews.
Speigel Online journalist to author of guidebook:
“There is however the following sentence: " Vagina and above all Klitoris experienced hardly attention by designation and TENDER CONTACTS (neither on the part of the father nor the mother) and make it more difficult thereby for the girl, proudly on its sexualness too entwickeln."

The author and journalist discuss the claims by angry, German parents that it was a pedo guidebook. They discuss why the guidebook was cancelled. The journalist responds to such accusations that she wrote a pedo manual by “passing the buck” to every breathing organism on the planet saying she had it approved by SoandSo to infinity and beyond. She is certain that she was correct in publishing this manual.  According to the author, parents should get auf daclothesennakey and Hans der genitalcontactwit children.
 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:58:41 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2009, 12:20:41 AM »

Now lets compare.
Originally we had the claim that the brochour read::
"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex,"

Now, thanks to ms.hoorah's excellent research) we have:
" Vagina and above all Klitoris experienced hardly attention by designation and TENDER CONTACTS (neither on the part of the father nor the mother) and make it more difficult thereby for the girl, proudly on its sexualness too entwickeln."
Well, thats so much clearer. Now the mothers are involved in the paedophile ring too, and not only do they fail to tender contact their daughter's vaginas and clitoris, they fail to designate them too.
Thank you for clearing that up.

I would be happy to use the publishing company's site for a reference to show others this brochure except they no longer publish it and the brochure cannot be seen in detail on their site.  Hmmm...wonder why?  Could it be that it brought disrepute to their publishing company?
Must have been your quick, decisive and well researched arguments on this thread which got them nervous.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2009, 03:45:28 AM »

Perhaps someone could find the July 9, 2007 edition of the Polish daily “Rzeczpospolita” by Aleksandra Rybinska about this German guidebook on Body, Love, and Playing Doctor....since ozgeorge won’t accept the RC Church or other Christian magazine opinions on this "guidebook".

Here you are but it is only a lead. The read the whole article you have to subscribe.

There is written that parents should pet their 1-to-3-year-old daughter's clitorises and vaginas so that they could develop pride of their sex.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 03:49:33 AM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2009, 06:50:11 AM »

There is written that parents should pet their 1-to-3-year-old daughter's clitorises and vaginas so that they could develop pride of their sex.

Codswhollop.
http://www.isp-dortmund.de/downloadfiles/Stellungnahme%20des%20isp.pdf
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2009, 07:29:10 AM »

Perhaps someone could find the July 9, 2007 edition of the Polish daily “Rzeczpospolita” by Aleksandra Rybinska about this German guidebook on Body, Love, and Playing Doctor....since ozgeorge won’t accept the RC Church or other Christian magazine opinions on this "guidebook".

Here you are but it is only a lead. The read the whole article you have to subscribe.

full
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
sodr2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 121


القديس الانبا رويس


« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2009, 07:12:10 PM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.
Quote
That is a good point, because the truth is everybody wants to be happy. The Sodomites can now practice their debauchery without being locked up or burned at the stake, and so now the pedos are saying "hey, if they can do their thing why can't I do mine?"
Very true!

Quote
I do not believe a paedophile would be truly 'happy' if he or she mo.lested a child. I think it must be a tormented state to be in, but I can't imagine any person except the utterly insane being happy with that action.
How is molesting a child any different than lets say masturbation? People do that to make themselves happy, are they insane?

Quote
Paedophilia is a form of rape, and rape is a horrible crime.
When two people have consensual sex, it is not rape. And here's a crime worse than rape: falsely accusing someone of rape.
Logged

"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III
ms.hoorah
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 866


« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2009, 07:28:29 PM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.
Quote
That is a good point, because the truth is everybody wants to be happy. The Sodomites can now practice their debauchery without being locked up or burned at the stake, and so now the pedos are saying "hey, if they can do their thing why can't I do mine?"
Very true!

Quote
I do not believe a paedophile would be truly 'happy' if he or she mo.lested a child. I think it must be a tormented state to be in, but I can't imagine any person except the utterly insane being happy with that action.
How is molesting a child any different than lets say masturbation? People do that to make themselves happy, are they insane?

Quote
Paedophilia is a form of rape, and rape is a horrible crime.
When two people have consensual sex, it is not rape. And here's a crime worse than rape: falsely accusing someone of rape.
I am praying that your comments are satirical or you are wasted.

Children are physically, emotionally and spiritually defenseless against adults.  They can be severely physically, emotionally, and spiritually injured by sex with adults. They do not have the mental capacity or life experience to make complex decisions needed for any sex act to be considered consensual. 

Please tell us what your screen name, sodr2, means.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:45:27 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2009, 07:50:50 PM »



How is molesting a child any different than lets say masturbation? People do that to make themselves happy, are they insane?



Dude, I don't know you from Adam but I'd quit now before you end up looking like real jerk.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:53:48 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
sodr2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 121


القديس الانبا رويس


« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2009, 12:40:16 PM »

Don't you guys understand the seriousness of sin? Masturbation is serious just as child molesting is. I don't know where you guys got the idea that I don't believe molestation to be immoral.

When Joseph was tempted by Potiphar's wife, he said, "How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" He did not mention anything about Potiphar or his wife. When David the prophet committed murder and adultery, he repented saying, "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight." He did not mention anything about Bathsheba or her ex-husband.

That's what I meant by when someone masturbates, he is no better than one who molests a child. Just like Adam and Eve, we all desire to eat the forbidden fruit, so I don't know why you guys judge and condemn those who ate it, when you have done the same.

Quote
They do not have the mental capacity or life experience to make complex decisions needed for any sex act to be considered consensual.
Oh, so at 12:00 AM on the day they turn 18, they are able to make these "complex decisions"? Give me a break! When they hit puberty, they are able to so (keeping in mind it's consensual).

-----
By the way, don't all things work for the good to those who love God?

-----
Quote
Please tell us what your screen name, sodr2, means.
I just made up a funny acronym right now, but I doubt it's appropriate, especially on this thread lol. Anyways, it's the acronym of a song.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 12:54:07 PM by sodr2 » Logged

"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2009, 01:09:37 PM »

Though homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things, the proposition that the acceptance of one doesn't entail the acceptance of the other is strained.

I remember when I first heard of NAMBLA, when I worked in DC.  I thought I was being joked to.

I've yet to see an argument for the homosexual agenda that can argue against the pedophile one.  After all, homosexuality is off the list of diseases, why not pedophilia? NAMBLA asks.  Why not indeed.

That is a good point, because the truth is everybody wants to be happy. The Sodomites can now practice their debauchery without being locked up or burned at the stake, and so now the pedos are saying "hey, if they can do their thing why can't I do mine?"


The usual answer is, because homosexuals do their "thing" with consenting adults. A child by definition cannot be consenting because the child does not understand what sex is and has no idea about its consequences. In addition, any kind of sexual manipulations with children can (and does) lead to their profound physical and psychological suffering. Not so in the case of whatever sexual manipulations "Sodomites" do to each other given that they are adults and consenting.
Logged

Love never fails.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2009, 02:08:45 PM »

Quote
Masturbation is serious just as child molesting is... That's what I meant by when someone masturbates, he is no better than one who molests a child.

Both are considered sins in the Orthodox Church, but they're certainly not on the same level of seriousness, so the comparison seems strange (thus the responses you got). In Christian history we see different penances given depending on the seriousness of the sin, and in Christian theology we see it explicitly stated that there are degrees of sin. For example:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19 

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust." - John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 02:10:11 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
sodr2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 121


القديس الانبا رويس


« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2009, 02:22:56 PM »

So the Orthodox church believes in mortal and venial sins? Even if it did, masturbation is still considered a mortal sin.

What about the man in Acts who died because he lied. Is lying considered a serious sin or not?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 02:25:12 PM by sodr2 » Logged

"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »

So the Orthodox church believes in mortal and venial sins? Even if it did, masturbation is still considered a mortal sin.

What about the man in Acts who died because he lied. Is lying considered a serious sin or not?

There aren't distinctions of "mortal and venial" sins in Orthodoxy; some are acknowledged as "more serious" and "less serious," but they're all "serious" and all separate us from God.  Some sins affect the community differently, and are given different penances from one another.  But all sin is "mortal," in that it can separate us from the Source of Eternal Life if we are unrepentant.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2009, 02:42:43 PM »

Quote
So the Orthodox church believes in mortal and venial sins?

I've never seen an Orthodox Christian use that particular distinction, no, though the general principle is sound.

Quote
Even if it did, masturbation is still considered a mortal sin.

I'm suprised that you don't see the strangeness of comparing masturbation to molestation.

Quote
What about the man in Acts who died because he lied. Is lying considered a serious sin or not?

Depends. In some cases lying or using deception is considered a permissable or even righteous act. Rahab the harlot was celebrated because of her lie (Jos. 2; Heb. 11:31; James 2:25). A prophet of God once lied so as to achieve a good end (1 Kings 20:35-43). The Archangel Raphael lied about his identity (Tob. 5:11-13; cf Tob. 12:11-15). And it is even said at times that God sends delusion onto people  (1 Kings 22:23; 2 Thes. 2:11). On the other hand, there are cases (you mention one) where lying is considered a very serious sin. I can only conclude that it depends on the context and various factors involved when it comes to lying.
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
sodr2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 121


القديس الانبا رويس


« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2009, 02:30:04 AM »

Quote
I'm suprised that you don't see the strangeness of comparing masturbation to molestation.
Well... Like I said, this is where I'm coming from:

Quote
When Joseph was tempted by Potiphar's wife, he said, "How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" He did not mention anything about Potiphar or his wife. When David the prophet committed murder and adultery, he repented saying, "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight." He did not mention anything about Bathsheba or her ex-husband.
Convince me otherwise.
Logged

"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,325


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2009, 02:53:03 AM »

Quote
I'm suprised that you don't see the strangeness of comparing masturbation to molestation.
Well... Like I said, this is where I'm coming from:

Quote
When Joseph was tempted by Potiphar's wife, he said, "How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" He did not mention anything about Potiphar or his wife. When David the prophet committed murder and adultery, he repented saying, "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight." He did not mention anything about Bathsheba or her ex-husband.
Convince me otherwise.
But the passages you quote don't speak of distinction, so I don't see how it's possible to conclude from them that all sins are equal or that sins can be classified as greater or lesser.  All that can be read from these Scriptures, as far as I can see, is that all sins, whether they are equal or gradated in seriousness, are fundamentally against God.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2009, 03:12:02 AM »

I see that PeterTheAleut beat me to part of the discussion, so I'll just focus on the issue of all sins being against God. I very highly doubt I'll convince you, though, because my view is that Joseph and David were wrong in what they said in those particular passages, at least if they are taken in a literal way. A better passage in which David speaks might be:

"And David said to Saul, Wherefore hearest thou men's words, saying, Behold, David seeketh thy hurt? Behold, this day thine eyes have seen how that the LORD had delivered thee to day into mine hand in the cave: and some bade me kill thee: but mine eye spared thee; and I said, I will not put forth mine hand against my lord; for he is the LORD's anointed. Moreover, my father, see, yea, see the skirt of thy robe in my hand: for in that I cut off the skirt of thy robe, and killed thee not, know thou and see that there is neither evil nor transgression in mine hand, and I have not sinned against thee; yet thou huntest my soul to take it." - 1 Sam. 24:9-11

Apparently David thought that he could indeed sin against Saul. There is also the question from Peter in the Gospels:

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." - Matt. 18:21-22

Rather than correcting Peter and saying something like "Now Peter, we can only sin against God, not people," Jesus gave an answer we'd expect if we could indeed sin against each other. Also, according to Paul you can sin against yourself:

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body." - 1 Cor. 6:18

In Orthodox theology, are all sins, in the end, against God? Probably. But we can still sin against each other, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 03:13:37 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
sodr2
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 121


القديس الانبا رويس


« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2009, 07:13:47 AM »

But the passages you quote don't speak of distinction, so I don't see how it's possible to conclude from them that all sins are equal or that sins can be classified as greater or lesser.  All that can be read from these Scriptures, as far as I can see, is that all sins, whether they are equal or gradated in seriousness, are fundamentally against God.
I never said anything about sins being equal or not, someone else brought it up. What I was saying is that yes, all sins are against God. That being said, if two people want sexual satisfaction and both sin against God, and Him alone, what's the difference between them? One is no better than the other. The only sin is disobedience against God, is it not?

Quote
because my view is that Joseph and David were wrong in what they said in those particular passages, at least if they are taken in a literal way
How can you take: "I've sinned against You, You only," metaphorically? David committed murder and ended up saying these words.

Quote
But we can still sin against each other, in my opinion.
Of course: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Maybe those two passages I've stated above mean that not only is it better to please God instead of man, but it is worse to displease God than man... Then again, displeasing man is displeasing God (Matthew 25:40). Huh
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 07:16:49 AM by sodr2 » Logged

"Happiness depends on the relationship between man and God." Pope Shenouda III
Tags: sin incest 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 70 queries.