Author Topic: 95 Theses  (Read 2213 times)

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Offline deusveritasest

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95 Theses
« on: September 11, 2009, 08:24:51 PM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 10:51:51 PM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

A few days ago, I reviewed the 95 Thesis and didn't think any were objectionable.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 11:29:32 PM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

LOL.  I did, but then I was Lutheran at the time.  I'd have to look again.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 12:20:40 AM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

LOL.  I did, but then I was Lutheran at the time.  I'd have to look again.

Please do. Your perspective as a former Lutheran would be all the more relevant.
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Offline GregoryLA

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 05:02:39 AM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

LOL.  I did, but then I was Lutheran at the time.  I'd have to look again.

ialmisry, you were Lutheran?  Are you ethnical Arab?  For some reason all this time I'd thought you were...

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 09:07:29 AM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

LOL.  I did, but then I was Lutheran at the time.  I'd have to look again.

ialmisry, you were Lutheran?  Are you ethnical Arab?  For some reason all this time I'd thought you were...

I'm also part German and Scandinavian, and my direct ancestors, if they weren't Lutheran they were in submission to the Vatican.  There are some Arabic Lutherans (there is even an Arab Lutheran Church here in Chicago).  The experience of being an Arab Lutheran in the Middle East is one reason why I am such a ferocious supporter of the WRO.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 09:36:04 AM »
19 seems odd:

Quote
Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.

He is talking of the souls in purgatory (leaving aside for the moment that question: here let's just say the uncanonized).  How are we certain of it?  If we were, they would be glorified as canonized saints in Heaven.

20
Quote
Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
Aboslution is absolute.  It means all. Period.

There follows a number of the Theses which are based on the faulty Latin idea of penalty and satisfaction.  Since the premise is wrong, I'm not sure how to class the criticisms of it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Jetavan

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 02:27:33 PM »
"If you havin' Church problems then don't blame God, son.
I got ninety-five theses but the Pope ain't one."

(These guys seem to be Yalies.)
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 02:40:13 PM »
We spent months on them when I was in Lutheran School. I havent read them in a long time.

NOTE: Raised Lutheran, and was so for a long friggin' time.

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« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 02:41:11 PM by primuspilus »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 05:05:07 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The word [i.e. "repent from number 1"] cannot be properly understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, i.e. confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
Two

Wait, what? That is ridiculous attempt to remove the Sacraments from the Scriptures, contrary to the inspiration and interpretation of the Fathers.

Quote
Yet its meaning is not restricted to repentance in one's heart; for such repentance is null unless it produces outward signs in various mortifications of the flesh
Three

I don't like that even as a priest how Luther is judging peoples' repentance by outward appearance, it can lead to folks trying to one up each other in self-righteous efforts.

Quote
Death puts an end to all the claims of the Church; even the dying are already dead to the canon laws, and are no longer bound by them.

And what of the Communion of the Saints?

Quote
The indulgences, which the merchants extol as the greatest of favours, are seen to be, in fact, a favourite means for money-getting.

Nevertheless, they are not to be compared with the grace of God and the compassion shown in the Cross.

Let him be anathema and accursed who denies the apostolic character of the indulgences.
Sixty-Seven, Sixty-Eight, Seventy-One

Aren't this in contradiction to each other?

Quote
Meanwhile he redeems innumerable souls for money, a most perishable thing, with which to build St. Peter's church, a very minor purpose.

While I am quite critical of the history of papal indulgences, in premise, we shouldn't dismiss fundraising efforts for the building of Saint Peter's in the Vatican.  Indulgences I disagree with completely, but not the concept of Offerings and donations to the Church for building funds.  This is as much a part of our faith as is charity or repentance.  The Church has to pay the bills.  Did the Popes go too far? Yes of course, but sometimes it seems Lutherans went too far in the other direction.

Quote
Why should funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continue to be said?

Why not? Commemorations and funerary Liturgies are perfectly Orthodox, and an appropriate way to celebrate death in the Church community.  It is a healing process for grief, that the Church has a full cycle, from birth and Baptism to death and funerals/commemorations.

All in all, the 95 these come across as the crude and emotional tirade they are, a personal rant against papal indulgences and the followers and preachers and sellers of these papers.  In all honesty, I don't think Luther had any intentions of leaving the Church, rather he seems to just be venting his grievances, however, in my opinion, his reform/critical movement was hijacked by folks with more political and economic motivations to break away from the political/economic constrictions of the Holy Roman Empire and the Papacy. 

stay blessed,
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 07:32:39 PM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

A couple of times, with the more recent being at least a year ago. I thought they were OK, though a few were still too pro-Papacy
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 09:37:39 PM »
"If you havin' Church problems then don't blame God, son.
I got ninety-five theses but the Pope ain't one."

(These guys seem to be Yalies.)

Good thing I scanned this thread and saw this post before responding- I was about to make a similar joke and think it was original.

Edit: Linked to the video, and totally OT, but this was sweet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9FoF7HzmEo&feature=watch_response.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 09:45:04 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: 95 Theses
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 05:11:13 AM »
Are there any EO or OO here who have read the entire 95 Theses?

If so, do you find any of the 95 to be objectionable? If so, why?

I did a couple of years ago, but don't remember anything sticking out I thought was completely nuts.  Then again, this was prior to my becoming Orthodox.