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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 98236 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #990 on: May 20, 2010, 10:23:34 AM »

Seriously.

Just because there are some folks who claim to be Orthodox and don't actually understand their own Faith...you cannot make a statement that the Church agrees with the misconception of the Virgin's conception!   Wink

I once had to correct a teenage girl on her essay where she stated that the Virgin Mary was born "special", and therefore, she lived a sinless life.

I gingerly approached her parents to see where she may have heard this theory.  It seems that she had attended a Catholic private school for a few years and had picked up this nonsense.  However, once I discussed this with her and her folks they saw the error in it and asked that I remove her essay so that nobody else should per chance read it and be misguided by her words.

Many people just repeat what they hear without putting much thought in to it.



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« Reply #991 on: May 20, 2010, 10:36:00 AM »

Imagine my first shocks when I joined the Orthodox Forum.  I'd never seen anything like that. 

You mean....the truth.

Thankfully I am surrounded by real parishes and real Orthodox faithful...

You mean as opposed to fake parishes and Orthodox unfaithful?  Sad

But I've gotten over most of those bad experiences and now am ready for what comes.

Uh-oh...the martyr complex is re-emerging!  Shocked


My my you are emboldened when you are among your equals.

Mary
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« Reply #992 on: May 20, 2010, 10:37:04 AM »

Seriously.

Just because there are some folks who claim to be Orthodox and don't actually understand their own Faith...you cannot make a statement that the Church agrees with the misconception of the Virgin's conception!   Wink

I once had to correct a teenage girl on her essay where she stated that the Virgin Mary was born "special", and therefore, she lived a sinless life.

I gingerly approached her parents to see where she may have heard this theory.  It seems that she had attended a Catholic private school for a few years and had picked up this nonsense.  However, once I discussed this with her and her folks they saw the error in it and asked that I remove her essay so that nobody else should per chance read it and be misguided by her words.

Many people just repeat what they hear without putting much thought in to it.


Most of the cradle Orthodox I have interacted with over the years haven't been to Catholic School.

M.
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« Reply #993 on: May 20, 2010, 11:09:55 AM »

My my you are emboldened when you are among your equals.

Holy Orthodoxy is a wonderful support group.  Smiley
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« Reply #994 on: May 20, 2010, 12:05:43 PM »

Seriously.

Just because there are some folks who claim to be Orthodox and don't actually understand their own Faith...you cannot make a statement that the Church agrees with the misconception of the Virgin's conception!   Wink

I once had to correct a teenage girl on her essay where she stated that the Virgin Mary was born "special", and therefore, she lived a sinless life.

I gingerly approached her parents to see where she may have heard this theory.  It seems that she had attended a Catholic private school for a few years and had picked up this nonsense.  However, once I discussed this with her and her folks they saw the error in it and asked that I remove her essay so that nobody else should per chance read it and be misguided by her words.

Many people just repeat what they hear without putting much thought in to it.




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« Reply #995 on: May 20, 2010, 12:27:46 PM »

Now, my only concern is that we not be represented as teaching or even entertaining such notions as the ICVM, because even if I was to believe what you say, it makes it all the harder to try to picture why the RCC continues to insist on such a dogma.

I sympathize with your sentiment here.  I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception.  No doubt the decision to do so was influenced by Protestant rejection of Mary's sinlessness and intercessory mediation.  Clearly many of the theological reasons advanced on its behalf are less than compelling.  Ultimately, I do not believe that "reasons" have much at all to do with it; rather, I think that the dogma itself is grounded in a primary intuition of the incomparable holiness and unique vocation of Mary as Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. 

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« Reply #996 on: May 20, 2010, 12:29:31 PM »


Uh-oh...the martyr complex is re-emerging!  Shocked

I remember you being a lot more charitable when you were a Catholic. Perhaps Eastern Orthodox is not helping you grow in holiness. Instead you grow in pride.


Papist, you know better than to descend into a bald ad hominem.  You are therefore receiving a Green Warning Dot for 30-days.  If you feel this is in error, please PM Fr. George or Fr. Chris.  -Schultz, Religious Topics Section Moderator
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« Reply #997 on: May 20, 2010, 12:31:46 PM »

Thankfully I am surrounded by real parishes and real Orthodox faithful from all over the world...
Shades of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy! When stymied by both fact and logic, suggest the problem lies with the presenter!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #998 on: May 20, 2010, 12:32:05 PM »

I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception. 

Yes. It was unfortunate. 

I think Pius IX severely widened the schism with his IC and infallibility declarations.

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« Reply #999 on: May 20, 2010, 12:32:47 PM »

Uh-oh...the martyr complex is re-emerging!  Shocked
I remember you being a lot more charitable when you were a Catholic. Perhaps Eastern Orthodox is not helping you grow in holiness. Instead you grow in pride.
Or perhaps he tires of being assailed by the same old Latin errors!
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« Reply #1000 on: May 20, 2010, 12:33:28 PM »

I remember you being a lot more charitable when you were a Catholic. Perhaps Eastern Orthodox is not helping you grow in holiness. Instead you grow in pride.

Do you have something to contribute to the thread?
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« Reply #1001 on: May 20, 2010, 12:35:32 PM »

Or perhaps he tires of being assailed by the same old Latin errors!

Indeed!  Grin
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« Reply #1002 on: May 20, 2010, 12:43:13 PM »

Now, my only concern is that we not be represented as teaching or even entertaining such notions as the ICVM, because even if I was to believe what you say, it makes it all the harder to try to picture why the RCC continues to insist on such a dogma.

I sympathize with your sentiment here.  I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception.  No doubt the decision to do so was influenced by Protestant rejection of Mary's sinlessness and intercessory mediation.  Clearly many of the theological reasons advanced on its behalf are less than compelling.  Ultimately, I do not believe that "reasons" have much at all to do with it; rather, I think that the dogma itself is grounded in a primary intuition of the incomparable holiness and unique vocation of Mary as Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. 



One of the historical reasons for the actual dogmatic constitution was that in some measure it was a Church dividing issue and needed to be resolved because it was causing difficulties in its unresolved state.

M.
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« Reply #1003 on: May 20, 2010, 12:45:20 PM »

I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception. 

Yes. It was unfortunate.  I think Pius IX severely widened the schism with his IC and infallibility declarations.

Clearly that is true.  I do not believe (though I welcome correction by anyone who has studied the history of the dogma) that the the IC dogma was intended to address any perceived errors in Orthodox teaching.  Though I do not know, I doubt the Pope gave the East even a moment's thought or wondered how it might be received by the "schismatics."  The historical context does need to be kept in mind.  Even within the context of the Latin Church, I wonder why the need for the definition.  Was the Latin Church being torn apart by serious Marian heresies?  I doubt it.  I disapprove of the apparent gratuitousness of the dogma.

In any case, the ecumenical consequences of Piux XI's dogmatization of the IC have been serious and have proven the imprudence of the definition.  

 
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« Reply #1004 on: May 20, 2010, 12:45:40 PM »

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

The constant faith (tradition: paradosis) of the Church attests to the belief in the special preparation of the holiness of the person of Mary to bear in her body the most holy person of the Son of God.

Church Fathers:

    * implicitly found in the Fathers of the Church in the parallelism between Eve and Mary (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140? - 202?);
    * Found in the more general terms about Mary: "holy", "innocent", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" (Irenaeus, Lyons, 140?-202?; Ephraem, Syria, 306-373; Ambrose, Milan, 373-397);
    * Explicit language: Mary - free from original sin (Augustine, Hippo, 395-430 to Anselm, Normandy, 1033-1109);

Eastern Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;

Western Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 12th Century;
    * A record of the feast in the 11th Century in Great Britain; in the 12th Century in Normandy;
    * Record in many churches of a Feast of the Conception of Mary in France, Germany, Italy and Spain in the 12th Century (Bernard, Clairvaux, 1090-1153);

14th Century:

    * was noted for the opposition to the Immaculate Conception from some of the great doctors of scholasticism. The celebration of the feast was not denied though. The difficulty arose from the meaning of the universal redemption through Christ.

15th Century:

    * Franciscan theologians solved the difficulty--Christ, the most perfect mediator, preserved Mary from original sin by an equally perfect act of healing. Duns Scotus (Scotland, 1266-1308) explained that the Immaculate Conception came through God's application of the grace of Christ beforehand.

From 15th Century:

    * the Feast was universally celebrated; and christian piety introduced an oath to defend the belief in the Immaculate Conception to be taken not only by Religious, but also by non-Religious and at the Universities (e.g., Paris, 1497; Cologne, 1499; Vienna, 1501, etc.)

1854, Pope Pius IX, infallibly defined, ex cathedra:

    * "The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin."

Excerpted and abridged from Chap. 7 of A Biblical Apologetic of the Catholic Faith, by Dr. Robert Schihl, Professor at Regent University. It appears here for for personal use only and may not be reproduced for any other use without permission of the author. The complete text may be downloaded from EWTN's Apologetics library as APOLOGIA.ZIP.

If you find this Biblical Apologetic of use please send your thanks to:

Dr. Robert J. Schihl
Regent University
Professor, School of Radio, Television and Film
College of Communications and the Arts
Virginia Beach, Virginia 23464-9800
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« Reply #1005 on: May 20, 2010, 12:47:19 PM »

Now, my only concern is that we not be represented as teaching or even entertaining such notions as the ICVM, because even if I was to believe what you say, it makes it all the harder to try to picture why the RCC continues to insist on such a dogma.

I sympathize with your sentiment here.  I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception.  No doubt the decision to do so was influenced by Protestant rejection of Mary's sinlessness and intercessory mediation.  Clearly many of the theological reasons advanced on its behalf are less than compelling.  Ultimately, I do not believe that "reasons" have much at all to do with it; rather, I think that the dogma itself is grounded in a primary intuition of the incomparable holiness and unique vocation of Mary as Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. 



One of the historical reasons for the actual dogmatic constitution was that in some measure it was a Church dividing issue and needed to be resolved because it was causing difficulties in its unresolved state.

M.

This assertion can be documented.  One would need to know a little something about the western schism and the history of the monastic and religious orders however.

M.
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« Reply #1006 on: May 20, 2010, 12:56:53 PM »

The historical context does need to be kept in mind.  Even within the context of the Latin Church, I wonder why the need for the definition.  Was the Latin Church being torn apart by serious Marian heresies?  I doubt it.  I disapprove of the apparent gratuitousness of the dogma.

Interesting observations.  I too, wonder why the need for the Latin Church to dogmatize this.  Was it a reaction to the reformers?
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« Reply #1007 on: May 20, 2010, 12:58:22 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: bouguereau; bvm; catholic; immaculateconception; mary; orthodox

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse unto thee!

Please allow a few minutes to post the Scriptural Basis. Thank you!
1 posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:55:02 PM by NYer
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« Reply #1008 on: May 20, 2010, 01:14:14 PM »

Justin Martyr

No reference to IC here.

Irenaeus

No reference to IC here.

Origen

No reference to IC here.

Hippolytus 

No reference to IC here.

Ephraim the Syrian

No reference to IC here.

Ambrose of Milan

No reference to IC here.

Gregory Nazianzen

No reference to IC here.

Augustine

No reference to IC here.

Theodotus of Ancrya

No reference to IC here.

Proclus of Constantinople

No reference to IC here.

Jacob of Sarug

No reference to IC here.

Romanos the Melodist

No reference to IC here.
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« Reply #1009 on: May 20, 2010, 01:15:10 PM »

Uh-oh...the martyr complex is re-emerging!  Shocked
I remember you being a lot more charitable when you were a Catholic. Perhaps Eastern Orthodox is not helping you grow in holiness. Instead you grow in pride.
Or perhaps he tires of being assailed by the same old Latin errors!
Sort of like ex-smokers.
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« Reply #1010 on: May 20, 2010, 01:16:35 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.
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« Reply #1011 on: May 20, 2010, 01:21:37 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
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« Reply #1012 on: May 20, 2010, 01:22:23 PM »

I do not understand why Pius IX felt it necessary or beneficial to dogmatize the Immaculate Conception. 

Yes. It was unfortunate.  I think Pius IX severely widened the schism with his IC and infallibility declarations.

Clearly that is true.  I do not believe (though I welcome correction by anyone who has studied the history of the dogma) that the the IC dogma was intended to address any perceived errors in Orthodox teaching.  Though I do not know, I doubt the Pope gave the East even a moment's thought or wondered how it might be received by the "schismatics."  The historical context does need to be kept in mind.  Even within the context of the Latin Church, I wonder why the need for the definition.  Was the Latin Church being torn apart by serious Marian heresies?  I doubt it.  I disapprove of the apparent gratuitousness of the dogma.

In any case, the ecumenical consequences of Piux XI's dogmatization of the IC have been serious and have proven the imprudence of the definition.  

 

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/kimmac.html

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« Reply #1013 on: May 20, 2010, 01:45:35 PM »


Clearly that is true.  I do not believe (though I welcome correction by anyone who has studied the history of the dogma) that the the IC dogma was intended to address any perceived errors in Orthodox teaching.  Though I do not know, I doubt the Pope gave the East even a moment's thought or wondered how it might be received by the "schismatics."  

It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

The Greek Orthodox Church's belief in the immaculate conception continued unanimously until the fifteenth century, then many Greek theologians began to adopt the idea that Mary had been made immaculate at the moment of the Annunciation. [Nicholas Callixtus, however, expressed doubt during the fourteenth century (cf. Jugie "L'Immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale", p. 2130, but the great Cabasilas' (1371) teaching on the immaculate conception ("In nativitatem" [PO 19, pp. 468-482]; "In dormitionem" [PO 19, pp. 498-504]) still had great influence in the subsequent centuries. Perhaps even more influential was Patriarch Gregory Palamas (1446-1452) whose homilies on the Mother of God are second to none even today ("De hypapante"; "De annuntiatione"; "De dormitione" [PG 151]; also "In Christi genealogiam" and "In praesentationem" [edit. K. Sophocles, "Tou en hagiois patros emon Gregoriou tou Palama homiliai", Athens, 1861]). Among the Eastern Slavs, belief in the immaculate conception went undisturbed until the seventeenth century, when the Skrizhal (Book of Laws) appeared in Russia, and proposed what the Slavs considered the "novel" doctrine of the Greeks. The views proposed in the Skrizhal were branded as blasphemous, especially among the "Staroviery" (Old Believers), who maintained the ancient customs and beliefs, however small or inconsequential. [Cf. N. Subbotin, "Materialy dlja istorii Roskola", Vol. IV (Moscow, 1878), pp. 39-50, 229, and Vol. 1 (Moscow, 1874), p. 457.] This reaction confirms the ancient Byzantine and Slav tradition of the immaculate conception. Only after Pope Pius IX defined the dogma in 1854 did opposition to the doctrine solidify among most Orthodox theologians. The Orthodox Church, however, has never made any definitive pronouncement on the matter. When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.
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« Reply #1014 on: May 20, 2010, 01:48:48 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.
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« Reply #1015 on: May 20, 2010, 01:52:59 PM »


Clearly that is true.  I do not believe (though I welcome correction by anyone who has studied the history of the dogma) that the the IC dogma was intended to address any perceived errors in Orthodox teaching.  Though I do not know, I doubt the Pope gave the East even a moment's thought or wondered how it might be received by the "schismatics."  

It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

The Greek Orthodox Church's belief in the immaculate conception continued unanimously until the fifteenth century, then many Greek theologians began to adopt the idea that Mary had been made immaculate at the moment of the Annunciation. [Nicholas Callixtus, however, expressed doubt during the fourteenth century (cf. Jugie "L'Immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale", p. 2130, but the great Cabasilas' (1371) teaching on the immaculate conception ("In nativitatem" [PO 19, pp. 468-482]; "In dormitionem" [PO 19, pp. 498-504]) still had great influence in the subsequent centuries. Perhaps even more influential was Patriarch Gregory Palamas (1446-1452) whose homilies on the Mother of God are second to none even today ("De hypapante"; "De annuntiatione"; "De dormitione" [PG 151]; also "In Christi genealogiam" and "In praesentationem" [edit. K. Sophocles, "Tou en hagiois patros emon Gregoriou tou Palama homiliai", Athens, 1861]). Among the Eastern Slavs, belief in the immaculate conception went undisturbed until the seventeenth century, when the Skrizhal (Book of Laws) appeared in Russia, and proposed what the Slavs considered the "novel" doctrine of the Greeks. The views proposed in the Skrizhal were branded as blasphemous, especially among the "Staroviery" (Old Believers), who maintained the ancient customs and beliefs, however small or inconsequential. [Cf. N. Subbotin, "Materialy dlja istorii Roskola", Vol. IV (Moscow, 1878), pp. 39-50, 229, and Vol. 1 (Moscow, 1874), p. 457.] This reaction confirms the ancient Byzantine and Slav tradition of the immaculate conception. Only after Pope Pius IX defined the dogma in 1854 did opposition to the doctrine solidify among most Orthodox theologians. The Orthodox Church, however, has never made any definitive pronouncement on the matter. When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.
Then Fr. Casimir can't read.
Quote
XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).
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« Reply #1016 on: May 20, 2010, 01:57:35 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.
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« Reply #1017 on: May 20, 2010, 01:59:18 PM »

http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2006/immaculate.htm

 Cool
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 02:05:10 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #1018 on: May 20, 2010, 02:03:28 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1019 on: May 20, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.

Marvelous!!  Happy to hear it.

So you also believe that the texts from the feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos are poetic hyperbole....?

M.
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« Reply #1020 on: May 20, 2010, 02:08:18 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.


This is an unnecessary comment.

Mary

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« Reply #1021 on: May 20, 2010, 02:09:21 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.
Just like throwing around the words "novel" and "innovation" doesn't really prove anything.
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« Reply #1022 on: May 20, 2010, 02:11:54 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.

Marvelous!!  Happy to hear it.

So you also believe that the texts from the feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos are poetic hyperbole....?

M.
Our texts, or your doctored ones?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1023 on: May 20, 2010, 02:13:59 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.


This is an unnecessary comment.
Lookin' at the quotation chain, evidently not.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1024 on: May 20, 2010, 02:15:10 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement?  

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.

Marvelous!!  Happy to hear it.

So you also believe that the texts from the feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos are poetic hyperbole....?

M.
Our texts, or your doctored ones?

The ones I posted here from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's translation of the Festal hymns.


Mary

Mary,
Please remember to address bishops properly.   Smiley
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:42:24 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #1025 on: May 20, 2010, 02:16:04 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.
Just like throwing around the words "novel" and "innovation" doesn't really prove anything.
except when backed by the facts.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1026 on: May 20, 2010, 02:18:57 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.

Marvelous!!  Happy to hear it.

So you also believe that the texts from the feast of the Presentation of the Theotokos are poetic hyperbole....?

M.
Our texts, or your doctored ones?

The ones I posted here from Kallistos Ware's translation of the Festal hymns.

Mary
A search didn't produce it.  Can you link?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1027 on: May 20, 2010, 02:19:40 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.


This is an unnecessary comment.
Lookin' at the quotation chain, evidently not.

This:

It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

...is a string of English words approximating an English sentence.

If I were you I would not be too snide about those who have difficulty in parsing it or trying to correct it out of context.

Mary
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« Reply #1028 on: May 20, 2010, 02:24:13 PM »


Boy, if I had a dime for every time someone tried to pass this site off as an Orthodox site---I'd be a rich man!  Grin
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« Reply #1029 on: May 20, 2010, 02:27:53 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.


This is an unnecessary comment.
Lookin' at the quotation chain, evidently not.

This:

It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

...is a string of English words approximating an English sentence.

If I were you I would not be too snide about those who have difficulty in parsing it or trying to correct it out of context.
The quotation chain wasn't enough?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1030 on: May 20, 2010, 02:31:48 PM »


Boy, if I had a dime for every time someone tried to pass this site off as an Orthodox site---I'd be a rich man!  Grin
Or just look at the site:
Quote
Dr. Alexander Roman [alex@unicorne.org], an erudite and prolific
member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has contributed a large number of
articles which are on this site.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm

That Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome nonsense.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #1031 on: May 20, 2010, 02:32:23 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.


This is an unnecessary comment.
Lookin' at the quotation chain, evidently not.

This:

It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

...is a string of English words approximating an English sentence.

If I were you I would not be too snide about those who have difficulty in parsing it or trying to correct it out of context.
The quotation chain wasn't enough?

Snide rules then.

Mary
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Mickey
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« Reply #1032 on: May 20, 2010, 02:33:10 PM »

That Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome nonsense.

Yes.  Roll Eyes
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elijahmaria
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WWW
« Reply #1033 on: May 20, 2010, 02:33:31 PM »


Boy, if I had a dime for every time someone tried to pass this site off as an Orthodox site---I'd be a rich man!  Grin
Or just look at the site:
Quote
Dr. Alexander Roman [alex@unicorne.org], an erudite and prolific
member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has contributed a large number of
articles which are on this site.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm

That Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome nonsense.

He's Ukrainian after all.

M.
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Mickey
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« Reply #1034 on: May 20, 2010, 02:35:37 PM »

He's Ukrainian after all.

He is a Ukrainian Catholic. That is why he is forced to walk the IC tightrope.  Wink

« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 02:36:08 PM by Mickey » Logged
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