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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 98505 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #720 on: May 12, 2010, 03:01:21 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.
When God wills it the Eastern Orthodox will return to the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #721 on: May 12, 2010, 03:02:25 PM »

Exceptional holiness is not antithetical to an immaculate conception either.  

But as has been stated--such a concept (IC) would have been largely visible amongst the Great Councils and Early Church Fathers.  Undecided
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« Reply #722 on: May 12, 2010, 03:02:53 PM »

Exceptional holiness is not antithetical to an immaculate conception either.  

But as has been stated--such a concept (IC) would have been largely visible amongst the Great Councils and Early Church Fathers.  Undecided
Its in your liturgy. Smiley
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« Reply #723 on: May 12, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.
When God wills it the Eastern Orthodox will return to the Catholic Church.

If the Undivided Church of the first millennium is seen as a five member team effort to establish a correct belief (orthodoxis) and
maintain a correct practice (orthopraxis) of the true Christian Faith, then how can one of the five team members claim thereafter to represent and speak for the entire team in isolation from the other four members who remain together?  Shocked

Go figure!  Undecided

 
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« Reply #724 on: May 12, 2010, 03:22:35 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.
When God wills it the Eastern Orthodox will return to the Catholic Church.

If the Undivided Church of the first millennium is seen as a five member team effort to establish a correct belief (orthodoxis) and
maintain a correct practice (orthopraxis) of the true Christian Faith, then how can one of the five team members claim thereafter to represent and speak for the entire team in isolation from the other four members who remain together?  Shocked

Go figure!  Undecided

 
The pentarchy is not part of the divine constitution of the Church. The team Captain, the Pope, is.
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« Reply #725 on: May 12, 2010, 03:25:54 PM »

If the Undivided Church of the first millennium is seen as a five member team effort to establish a correct belief (orthodoxis) and
maintain a correct practice (orthopraxis) of the true Christian Faith, then how can one of the five team members claim thereafter to represent and speak for the entire team in isolation from the other four members who remain together?

Good point.  Smiley
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« Reply #726 on: May 12, 2010, 03:35:28 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.
When God wills it the Eastern Orthodox will return to the Catholic Church.

If the Undivided Church of the first millennium is seen as a five member team effort to establish a correct belief (orthodoxis) and
maintain a correct practice (orthopraxis) of the true Christian Faith, then how can one of the five team members claim thereafter to represent and speak for the entire team in isolation from the other four members who remain together?  Shocked

Go figure!  Undecided

 
The pentarchy is not part of the divine constitution of the Church. The team Captain, the Pope, is.

Ha! Ha! One player does not make a team!  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #727 on: May 12, 2010, 03:45:06 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.

I realize there is a loud anti-ecumenical voice in Orthodoxy, but I also know that there are many who not so negatively inclined.

As long as Orthodoxy can remain as she is, I think that perhaps there are quite a few faithful and clergy in Orthodoxy who would accept a resumption of communion with the papal Church.

I think we share the same faith, and I think there are others who think the same way but with extreme concerns about whether or not the Vatican would accept Orthodoxy as she is.

I guess we are competitors in terms of belief.  Seems a shame.

M.
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« Reply #728 on: May 12, 2010, 04:14:56 PM »

I realize there is a loud anti-ecumenical voice in Orthodoxy, but I also know that there are many who not so negatively inclined.

Are you projecting a negative attribute to those of us who are against false ecumenism?

As long as Orthodoxy can remain as she is, I think that perhaps there are quite a few faithful and clergy in Orthodoxy who would accept a resumption of communion with the papal Church.

What leads you to believe that Rome would allow the Orthodox to "remain as she is" if your scenario plays out?

I think we share the same faith, and I think there are others who think the same way but with extreme concerns about whether or not the Vatican would accept Orthodoxy as she is. 

Yes. As we have seen promises broken with the Eastern Catholics--I can see how the Orthodox would be quite nervous. 

I guess we are competitors in terms of belief.  Seems a shame.

I would not go to such an extreme.  There are some differences—some of them doctrinal and substantial.  But we also have much in common.  After all, it was the Ruthenians who led me to the Holy Orthodox Church!
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« Reply #729 on: May 12, 2010, 04:33:16 PM »

I realize there is a loud anti-ecumenical voice in Orthodoxy, but I also know that there are many who not so negatively inclined.

Are you projecting a negative attribute to those of us who are against false ecumenism?

As long as Orthodoxy can remain as she is, I think that perhaps there are quite a few faithful and clergy in Orthodoxy who would accept a resumption of communion with the papal Church.

What leads you to believe that Rome would allow the Orthodox to "remain as she is" if your scenario plays out?

I think we share the same faith, and I think there are others who think the same way but with extreme concerns about whether or not the Vatican would accept Orthodoxy as she is. 

Yes. As we have seen promises broken with the Eastern Catholics--I can see how the Orthodox would be quite nervous. 

I guess we are competitors in terms of belief.  Seems a shame.

I would not go to such an extreme.  There are some differences—some of them doctrinal and substantial.  But we also have much in common.  After all, it was the Ruthenians who led me to the Holy Orthodox Church!


1.  I think we would differ on what would be considered to be "false" ecumenism.  I am not looking for peace where there is no peace, but I expect that I would get an argument on what I would consider to be genuine peace and grounds for communion.

2.  The fact that the Vatican has finally stopped referring to Orthodoxy as heretics and schismatics and hissing and booing across the great divide at Orthodoxy...no matter what Orthodoxy does in return...I think speaks well for the possibility of a smooth transition to renewed communion.  It is a rocky history but now the door is open and I hope will remain open regardless of what happens in return....

3. Also there's the experience with the Uniate Churches and broken promises, and false promises, which may be seen as a negative but I see it as one of the primary reasons for Rome NOT to try that sort of arrangement again.

4.  Beware the Curia!!

Doctrinal differences, from my own vantage point, do not seem to me to be sufficient to broken communion.  The issues of governance and jurisdiction seem much more pressing and difficult to manage well between us.

Both sides will have those who will be fully repelled by any resumption of communion.  That to me is tragic.

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« Reply #730 on: May 12, 2010, 04:47:56 PM »

I am sorry that you've closed off the possibility for restoration and the possibility that both Churches may have been in error with one another over the centuries.

I have not given up hope on restoration.  When God wills, the Latin/Eastern Catholics along with her separated protestant brethren will return to Holy Orthodoxy.
When God wills it the Eastern Orthodox will return to the Catholic Church.

The Orthodox church never left the Catholc Church.  We are still part of that undivided church we profess belief in every time we say the Creed IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM!  And I will continue to correct anyone who comes in here and tries to rewrite history.

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« Reply #731 on: May 12, 2010, 05:02:45 PM »

I have heard that the Ruthenian Catholics are, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, the most docile and submissive to Rome.   While they dedicate their churches in the States to the Immaculate Conception, other Eastern Catholics stand up and say they deny the dogma.

You are correct. There is a Ruthenian Catholic pilgrimage (otpust) at Mt St Macrina every year in Uniontown, Pa.  There is a shrine with a statue dedicated to the IC. 

One thing that is missing from the great and shining wisdom of these posts is the fact that none of these people are coerced in their devotions. 

The term "docility" is nothing more than an insult to a genuine and gently held belief in the completely unblemished Mother of God.

These are plain people.  Country people, many of them.  Wage-earners.  Miners.  Hard working men and women.  They would never come on such a list and insult any of you the way that you have insulted them.  They would be shocked by what you are...well...maybe some of them remember their angry Orthodox brothers, sisters and cousins making them run the gauntlet from the Church doors to their cars or pounding on the floor of the temple from the basement below with broomsticks in order to disrupt the liturgies.
Now that I think of it...Even though things have calmed down some over the last generation at home, they would most likely not be surprised by what is said against their faith here at all by those who are strangers to them...petty and sneering and more than happy to throw verbal rocks at their invisible presence here in this discussion.

There were some very good things starting to happen here in this discussion in terms of mutual understanding.  But many of you simply cannot stand that so you blow it up with nastiness and cruelty and mockery. 

 Smiley  Blessed be God.  Blessed be his holy name.

M.

I hope that I am not the only one who reports this insulting post by Mary to the moderators.  I have never been so insulted in my life!  As a person whose grandparents suffered greatly here in America when they returned to Holy Orthodoxy I could relate stories that would more than compensate for the accusations being made against we who are now Orthodox!  It's an insult to all those who had to take out second mortgages to build an Orthodox Church, to have to deal with court cases against them for ringing the bells at midnight during Pascha, have stone thrown at them while they were going into or out of their churches.  I could go on but I'm too mad right now!

How about an apology Mary?

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« Reply #732 on: May 12, 2010, 05:11:19 PM »

I have heard that the Ruthenian Catholics are, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, the most docile and submissive to Rome.   While they dedicate their churches in the States to the Immaculate Conception, other Eastern Catholics stand up and say they deny the dogma.

You are correct. There is a Ruthenian Catholic pilgrimage (otpust) at Mt St Macrina every year in Uniontown, Pa.  There is a shrine with a statue dedicated to the IC.  

One thing that is missing from the great and shining wisdom of these posts is the fact that none of these people are coerced in their devotions.  

The term "docility" is nothing more than an insult to a genuine and gently held belief in the completely unblemished Mother of God.

These are plain people.  Country people, many of them.  Wage-earners.  Miners.  Hard working men and women.  They would never come on such a list and insult any of you the way that you have insulted them.  They would be shocked by what you are...well...maybe some of them remember their angry Orthodox brothers, sisters and cousins making them run the gauntlet from the Church doors to their cars or pounding on the floor of the temple from the basement below with broomsticks in order to disrupt the liturgies.
Now that I think of it...Even though things have calmed down some over the last generation at home, they would most likely not be surprised by what is said against their faith here at all by those who are strangers to them...petty and sneering and more than happy to throw verbal rocks at their invisible presence here in this discussion.

There were some very good things starting to happen here in this discussion in terms of mutual understanding.  But many of you simply cannot stand that so you blow it up with nastiness and cruelty and mockery.  

 Smiley  Blessed be God.  Blessed be his holy name.

M.



Mary

I hope that I am not the only one who reports this insulting post by Mary to the moderators.  I have never been so insulted in my life!  As a person whose grandparents suffered greatly here in America when they returned to Holy Orthodoxy I could relate stories that would more than compensate for the accusations being made against we who are now Orthodox!  It's an insult to all those who had to take out second mortgages to build an Orthodox Church, to have to deal with court cases against them for ringing the bells at midnight during Pascha, have stone thrown at them while they were going into or out of their churches.  I could go on but I'm too mad right now!

How about an apology Mary?

Orthodox

There's plenty of anger to go around.  More than enough.  I am sure you'd be happy to share.  I don't see the same kind of aggressiveness coming out of the Catholic side.  Sorry.  It just is not there.  Remember....Father Ambrose attests to the fact that they are docile.

Mary
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« Reply #733 on: May 12, 2010, 05:18:52 PM »

I am locking this thread to give everyone a day to cool off.  This thread is heading not only to more dead horse beating but down a more raw and emotional road that will not edifying for anyone involved nor, most especially, for anyone surfing in to OC.net. 

Take a breather, folks.

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« Reply #734 on: May 14, 2010, 10:03:19 AM »

I'm reopening this thread for continued discussion on the Immaculate Conception.  Please remember to read your posts again BEFORE you hit the "Post" button and make sure you're saying what you mean and, more importantly, saying it HOW you mean it, remembering that we generally do not delete posts on OC.net and what you write is pretty much here forever.

In other words, play nice.
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« Reply #735 on: May 14, 2010, 10:44:20 AM »


I take Father Lev Gillet's sources seriously.  I take Father Casimir Kucharek's sources seriously.  
These are not MY arguments, so you cannot hush the reality that they exist by hushing ME.


I have heard that the Ruthenian Catholics are, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, the most docile and submissive to Rome.   While they dedicate their churches in the States to the Immaculate Conception, other Eastern Catholics stand up and say they deny the dogma.

I would think that prize  Roll Eyes would go to the Maronites.  The Ruthenians of Austro-Hungarian Galicia certainly displayed little "docility," nor when they immigrated to the US.  Perhaps the dynamics have changed with the return of many Ruthenians to Orthodoxy: all that remained under the Vatican perhaps feel that they have to prove their loyalty to their "Mother Church."

An example might be the "canonization" of Ioasaphat Kuntsevich: the Ruthenian church opposed it. It was pushed by the Latin Poles, and for decades the only churches dedicated to him were Latin Polish ones.  It is telling that the Priestly Society of Ioasaphat, a SSPX type organization among the Ukrainians, fights to keep all the Latinization. I would think the IC would be one of them.

It is.  The Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here in Philly is supposed to be one of the largest Ukrainian Catholic structures in the U.S. and is dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.  Though when my neighbors father was buried from there a few years ago they were told to list it as St Mary's in the obituary column.  However, just three weeks ago, after Liturgy in my parish (Orthodox), while everyone was in the social hall, two members of this parish were caught stuffing the hymnal containers in both the main church and the chapel with pamphlets regarding info on the Cathedral in both Ukrainian and English! On the phamphlets it is still identified as the Immaculate Conception! 

How anyone can think they have the right to go in an Orthodox Church and do this is beyond me, but that's another story!  Thank God for our Baba's who caught them and escorted them out the door!

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« Reply #736 on: May 14, 2010, 11:45:48 AM »



Cosmos  Undecided
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« Reply #737 on: May 14, 2010, 11:52:47 AM »

With all this talk about the Immaculate Conception, we are ignoring out responsibility to argue about Purgatory.  Wink
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« Reply #738 on: May 14, 2010, 11:54:29 AM »

With all this talk about the Immaculate Conception, we are ignoring out responsibility to argue about Purgatory.  Wink

Stay on topic, you! Wink
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« Reply #739 on: May 14, 2010, 12:22:52 PM »

elijahmaria:

1. You wrote: The liturgical books I have are a gift to me from an Orthodox source. Does this include the fourteen-volume Menaion? Or, at least, for the purposes of this discussion, the volume for December, which would have the services of the Conception of the Mother of God appointed for December 9?
 
2. If you do have the text for this feast in your liturgical books, it would help immensely if you could post the text for Vespers and Matins for this feast. If scanning to text form is too time-consuming for you, most scanners allow for a page to be scanned and saved as a PDF or JPEG file, which can then be uploaded to the forum. Then, it would be possible to compare the text I have already posted, with what you have. That's only fair and reasonable, don't you agree?
 
3. If you do not have a Menaion, then it should be possible for you to photocopy the relevant pages from your church's Menaion (or, ask your choirmaster/choirmistress to do it for you), which can then be scanned and uploaded as I described above.
 
I can also confirm that the writer of the Canon at Matins is St Andrew of Crete, and the writer of the last hymn at Lord, I have cried is St Germanus of Constantinople, both contemporaries of St John of Damascus (late 7th-early to mid-8th C). So this feast is definitely pre-schism by a long shot, and the bulk of the hymnography written by a man who knew his onions when it came to the Mother of God. I've also found out that St Germanus was hardly ignorant about the Mother of God either - he wrote a number of discourses on various feasts of the Mother of God, as well as good amounts of hymnography for her feasts as well as for various saints.
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« Reply #740 on: May 14, 2010, 12:29:09 PM »

I have a better idea!!  I will wait till you pick up Father Behr's book of festal homilies that has the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos....the one from John Damascene... Then you can scan it and post it here!!

And then I'll work on this..ok?

I'll wait for you to go first.

M.


elijahmaria:

1. You wrote: The liturgical books I have are a gift to me from an Orthodox source. Does this include the fourteen-volume Menaion? Or, at least, for the purposes of this discussion, the volume for December, which would have the services of the Conception of the Mother of God appointed for December 9?
 
2. If you do have the text for this feast in your liturgical books, it would help immensely if you could post the text for Vespers and Matins for this feast. If scanning to text form is too time-consuming for you, most scanners allow for a page to be scanned and saved as a PDF or JPEG file, which can then be uploaded to the forum. Then, it would be possible to compare the text I have already posted, with what you have. That's only fair and reasonable, don't you agree?
 
3. If you do not have a Menaion, then it should be possible for you to photocopy the relevant pages from your church's Menaion (or, ask your choirmaster/choirmistress to do it for you), which can then be scanned and uploaded as I described above.
 
I can also confirm that the writer of the Canon at Matins is St Andrew of Crete, and the writer of the last hymn at Lord, I have cried is St Germanus of Constantinople, both contemporaries of St John of Damascus (late 7th-early to mid-8th C). So this feast is definitely pre-schism by a long shot, and the bulk of the hymnography written by a man who knew his onions when it came to the Mother of God. I've also found out that St Germanus was hardly ignorant about the Mother of God either - he wrote a number of discourses on various feasts of the Mother of God, as well as good amounts of hymnography for her feasts as well as for various saints.

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« Reply #741 on: May 14, 2010, 12:47:38 PM »

elijahmaria, you're avoiding my questions. Surely the first question is within your capacity to answer?
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« Reply #742 on: May 14, 2010, 12:52:08 PM »

elijahmaria, you're avoiding my questions. Surely the first question is within your capacity to answer?

Obviously not since she is avoiding your request!

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« Reply #743 on: May 14, 2010, 12:53:17 PM »

elijahmaria, you're avoiding my questions. Surely the first question is within your capacity to answer?

There's no question there.  There's an order.  I am refusing your order.

Thanks. 

When you follow my order, I will follow your own.

M.
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« Reply #744 on: May 14, 2010, 12:56:58 PM »

elijahmaria, you're avoiding my questions. Surely the first question is within your capacity to answer?

There's no question there.  There's an order.  I am refusing your order.

Thanks. 

When you follow my order, I will follow your own.

M.

I declare LBK the winner of this round!  Obviously Mary is now unsure of her claims that she is avoiding the request!  Which makes one wonder why she is here trolling! 

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« Reply #745 on: May 14, 2010, 01:00:09 PM »

Actually, the first question is a question, not an order.  

LBK plainly asked you, in a non-confrontational manner, for the name of your source so that you two can discuss something from the same origin point.

If you're unable to at least offer us the compiler/publisher of your "liturgical books I have are a gift to me from an Orthodox source," what's the point in engaging you in any sort of discussion if you can just turn to amorphous and vague "Orthodox sources" without any sort of citation.

You brought these sources into this discussion and it is up to you to let us know at least what they are/who translated them/who published them if asked.  It's basic intellectual honesty and transparency.
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« Reply #746 on: May 14, 2010, 01:01:27 PM »

elijahmaria, you're avoiding my questions. Surely the first question is within your capacity to answer?

There's no question there.  There's an order.  I am refusing your order.

Thanks. 

When you follow my order, I will follow your own.

M.

Order? I asked something of you.  Politely. It was a simple question, which, for whatever reason, you have refused to answer.  angel
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« Reply #747 on: May 14, 2010, 01:29:02 PM »

You are really asking her to go out of her way to scan this stuff from your liturgical books onto to the computer and then post them on this website?
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« Reply #748 on: May 14, 2010, 01:30:32 PM »

Papist,

Is it asking her to go out of her way to ask her what are the specifics of these "liturgical books from an Orthodox source" are?
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« Reply #749 on: May 14, 2010, 01:32:44 PM »

Asking her to scan them onto the computer is asking her to go out of her way,
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« Reply #750 on: May 14, 2010, 01:41:11 PM »

This has no bearing on anything.

Father Ambrose said that I use Byzantine Catholic texts for my daily hours.

I said I use texts given to me by an Orthodox source.  I use approved Orthodox texts at home and carry a Catholic text with me on the road.

Do I need to prove that to any of you?

No.    I do not.

I am not playing games here.

I am too old for this nonsense and THIS is nonsense.

Mary

Actually, the first question is a question, not an order.  

LBK plainly asked you, in a non-confrontational manner, for the name of your source so that you two can discuss something from the same origin point.

If you're unable to at least offer us the compiler/publisher of your "liturgical books I have are a gift to me from an Orthodox source," what's the point in engaging you in any sort of discussion if you can just turn to amorphous and vague "Orthodox sources" without any sort of citation.

You brought these sources into this discussion and it is up to you to let us know at least what they are/who translated them/who published them if asked.  It's basic intellectual honesty and transparency.
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« Reply #751 on: May 14, 2010, 01:44:54 PM »

I have a better idea!!  I will wait till you pick up Father Behr's book of festal homilies that has the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos....the one from John Damascene...

What is the specific title and publisher?  My searches have not revealed any collection of homilies that might include the Damascene homily. 
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« Reply #752 on: May 14, 2010, 01:48:04 PM »

I am too old for this nonsense and THIS is nonsense.

In other words--you refuse to answer the question.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #753 on: May 14, 2010, 01:48:53 PM »

Actually, not naming your sources is nonsense, but it is your perogative.  

Perhaps if you looked past yourself and realized that LBK would like to discuss the topic at hand with you using the text you have at your disposal, you might be able to see the use in her question, but since you do not, perhaps it's best to let this thread die a natural death.
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« Reply #754 on: May 14, 2010, 01:52:24 PM »

Papist,

Is it asking her to go out of her way to ask her what are the specifics of these "liturgical books from an Orthodox source" are?

No, that is not going out of her way. The scanning stuff onto the computer and posting it nonsense is.
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« Reply #755 on: May 14, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »

Actually, not naming your sources is nonsense, but it is your perogative.  

Perhaps if you looked past yourself and realized that LBK would like to discuss the topic at hand with you using the text you have at your disposal, you might be able to see the use in her question, but since you do not, perhaps it's best to let this thread die a natural death.


I think you have a fine idea here.  Let it die.  I have said all that I have to say that is of any use here.

M.
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« Reply #756 on: May 14, 2010, 01:55:49 PM »

I have a better idea!!  I will wait till you pick up Father Behr's book of festal homilies that has the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos....the one from John Damascene...

What is the specific title and publisher?  My searches have not revealed any collection of homilies that might include the Damascene homily. 

Its on Amazon...Fr. John Behr's ...I'll go find it again.  I haven't ordered it yet.
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« Reply #757 on: May 14, 2010, 01:56:15 PM »

Actually, not naming your sources is nonsense, but it is your perogative.  

Perhaps if you looked past yourself and realized that LBK would like to discuss the topic at hand with you using the text you have at your disposal, you might be able to see the use in her question, but since you do not, perhaps it's best to let this thread die a natural death.


Agreed. Quite so!

It's beginning to look like....



Cosmos
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« Reply #758 on: May 14, 2010, 01:59:02 PM »

Papist,

Is it asking her to go out of her way to ask her what are the specifics of these "liturgical books from an Orthodox source" are?

No, that is not going out of her way. The scanning stuff onto the computer and posting it nonsense is.

I think we have all seen this for what it is worth.  And Mary comes out as someone who is either purposely trolling or is not able to back up her claims.  One should be willing to go out of their way to prove the points they are claiming or not make such claims in the first place!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #759 on: May 14, 2010, 02:06:21 PM »

This is silly.  What claim am I not backing up?  That I have a set of Orthodox liturgical books for my daily hours? 

I have three sets.  Two Orthodox, one Catholic.

Am I obliged to prove that to you? 

I don't own a scanner and my computer is six years old and I use dial-up.

My underwear is size 9.

I am an old lady.

Thanks for your kindness.

Mary

Papist,

Is it asking her to go out of her way to ask her what are the specifics of these "liturgical books from an Orthodox source" are?

No, that is not going out of her way. The scanning stuff onto the computer and posting it nonsense is.

I think we have all seen this for what it is worth.  And Mary comes out as someone who is either purposely trolling or is not able to back up her claims.  One should be willing to go out of their way to prove the points they are claiming or not make such claims in the first place!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #760 on: May 14, 2010, 02:10:25 PM »

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested.  Wink
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« Reply #761 on: May 14, 2010, 02:11:18 PM »

Papist,

Is it asking her to go out of her way to ask her what are the specifics of these "liturgical books from an Orthodox source" are?

No, that is not going out of her way. The scanning stuff onto the computer and posting it nonsense is.

I think we have all seen this for what it is worth.  And Mary comes out as someone who is either purposely trolling or is not able to back up her claims.  One should be willing to go out of their way to prove the points they are claiming or not make such claims in the first place!

Orthodoc
She has substantiated many of her claims throughout this thread. You just don't like the conclusion because it exposes what you believe as being false.
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« Reply #762 on: May 14, 2010, 02:12:23 PM »

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested.  Wink
I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?
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« Reply #763 on: May 14, 2010, 02:25:08 PM »

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested.  Wink
I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?


I believe that Mary has these books.  I know from her own e-list Irenikon that she has a rich library of Orthodox  authors.  In fact I would think she makes do with darned size nine bloomers to pay for the books.  Mary is an Erasmus person:  "When I have a little money I buy books; if any is left I buy food and clothes."


Here is something interesting on liturgical material in English...

" What do Antiochian, OCA, and other non-ROCOR parishes use for the Octoechos and Menaion in English services?  The OCA parish I used to attend used texts that were available electronically from the OCA's Holy Myrrh bearers Monastery in NY.  These were never published, I don't think, and at least the version I have is not at all complete.  Aside from one Sunday Octoechos from the Monastery of the Veil, the only full Octoechos I'm aware of in English was translated by Reader Isaac Lambertsen in ROCOR.  Before Holy Transfiguration Monastery published their Menaion a few years back, the one translated by Rdr Isaac in ROCOR is the only full Menaion that I was aware of.  The only complete Pentecostarions in English that I am aware of were published by HTM and ROCOR.  Again, what do Antiochians, OCA, and other non-ROCOR parishes use as the Octoechos, Menaion, and Pentecostarion texts for their English services?  What about St. Tikhon's monastery, what have they been using for the daily texts all of these years and why haven't they published an Octoechos or Menaion?"

and from an OCA priest:

"St Vladimir's Seminary and St Tikhon's have been using their own texts of all of those services for more than 50 years.  Just because these texts weren't officially published doesn't mean they haven't been widely used or dissmeninated in the OCA."


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« Reply #764 on: May 14, 2010, 02:44:04 PM »

I have a better idea!!  I will wait till you pick up Father Behr's book of festal homilies that has the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos....the one from John Damascene...

What is the specific title and publisher?  My searches have not revealed any collection of homilies that might include the Damascene homily. 

Here's the data on the text Father Al,

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God
Introduction and Translation: Mary B. Cunningham
Works:

1.) John of Damascus: An Oration of the Nativity of the Holy Theotokos Mary; 2.) Andrew of Crete: On the Nativity I-IV; 3.) Kosmas Vestitor: Sermon on the Holy Joachim and Anna, Glorious Parents of the Theotokos Mary; 4.) Germanos of Constantinople: On the Entrance into the Temple I-II; 5.) John of Euboea: Homily on the Conception of the Holy Theotokos; 6.) Andrew of Crete: Oration on the Annunciation of the Supremely Holy Lady, Our Theotokos; 7.) Germanos of Constantinople: Oration on the Annunciation of the Supremely Holy Theotokos; 8.) Germanos of Constantinople: Oration on the Consecration of the Venerable Church of Our Supremely Holy Lady, the Theotokos, and on the Holy Swaddling Clothes of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Texts: 1.) CPG (Clavis patrum graecorum) 8060; BHGa (Bibliotheca hagiographica Graece) 1087; B. Kotter. Die Schriften des Johannes von Damaskos, 5:169-82. 2.) Part I: CPG 8170; BHGa 1082; BHGn 1082a; PG 97.805-20. Part II: CPG 8171; BHG 1080; PG 97.820-44. Part III: CPG 8172; BHGa 1127; PG 97.861-81. Part IV: CPG 8173; BHGa 1092, 1092b; PG 97.861-81. 3.) CPG 8151; BHG 828; PG 106.1005-1012. 4.) Part I: CPG 8007; BHG 1103; PG 98.292-309. Part II: CPG 8008; BHGa 1104; PG 98.309-20. 5.) CPG 8135; BHG 1117; PG 96.1460-1500. 6.) CPG 8174; BHG 1093g; PG 97.881-913. 7.) CPG 8009; BHG 1145n-q; BHGa 1145n-r; PG 320-340; D. Fecioru, “Un nou gen de predica in omiletica ortodoxa,” Biserica Ortodoxa Romana 64 (1946): 65-91; 180-92; 386-96 [this last includes the only full copy of the text; Cunningham notes she was working on a new edition.]. 8.) CPG 8013; BHG 1086; PG 98.372-84.
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