Author Topic: Pappadic/agia tone 4  (Read 2150 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Pappadic/agia tone 4
« on: September 08, 2009, 08:10:28 PM »
Attention fellow chanters!  The great Doxology at Orthros for feast of the cross is supposed to be in pappadic/agia tone 4.  I've never chanted this particular species of tone 4 and it would help greatly if I heard it. I've tried finding an example on youtube to no avail. If anyone knows of a recording online or in their personal library and is willing to send it to me, please get in touch with me.  Thanks!
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 09:18:05 PM »
Not sure where you are getting this from, sounds like some local tradition. The doxasticon of the feast is in Plagal 2 (tone 6 for those of you who wish the use that terminology) so the Great Doxology would be sung in plagal 2 and that is the only only way I have ever heard it done.
Joseph

Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 09:23:04 PM »
here is a version of it, as a cherubic hymn.  the chanter does a HUGE intro, which is a singing of the scale in its entirety. 

let me know if this is not enough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEywAo8ZaT8

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »
Not sure where you are getting this from, sounds like some local tradition. The doxasticon of the feast is in Plagal 2 (tone 6 for those of you who wish the use that terminology) so the Great Doxology would be sung in plagal 2 and that is the only only way I have ever heard it done.

This week's notes were prepared by the protopsaltis of the DOWAMA with Bishop BASIL's blessing and direction.  I asked why the Doxology did not follow in the tone as the Doxasticon and he responded thus:   In this instance, since there is a particular melody for the Great Doxology (for the feast of the Cross), the tone does not follow the tone of the doxastikon.  He didn't specify more than that.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 09:51:29 PM »
here is a version of it, as a cherubic hymn.  the chanter does a HUGE intro, which is a singing of the scale in its entirety. 

let me know if this is not enough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEywAo8ZaT8



Thanks, Serb.  I found this as well after messing with the search parameters.  The intonation and the main ison seems to be centered on dhi.  But the ison shifts so much and the scale goes way low and very high and I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be a combination of diatonic and soft chromatic.  I just need something written to work with to the text of the Doxology.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 11:15:38 PM »
Not sure where you are getting this from, sounds like some local tradition. The doxasticon of the feast is in Plagal 2 (tone 6 for those of you who wish the use that terminology) so the Great Doxology would be sung in plagal 2 and that is the only only way I have ever heard it done.

This week's notes were prepared by the protopsaltis of the DOWAMA with Bishop BASIL's blessing and direction.  I asked why the Doxology did not follow in the tone as the Doxasticon and he responded thus:   In this instance, since there is a particular melody for the Great Doxology (for the feast of the Cross), the tone does not follow the tone of the doxastikon.  He didn't specify more than that.

Sounds like Dr. Sam found something he likes and can sing. Like I said, never have seen or heard it done that way. Maybe one of the guys from Holy Cross has some input.
Joseph

Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 12:54:49 AM »
here is a version of it, as a cherubic hymn.  the chanter does a HUGE intro, which is a singing of the scale in its entirety. 

let me know if this is not enough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEywAo8ZaT8



Thanks, Serb.  I found this as well after messing with the search parameters.  The intonation and the main ison seems to be centered on dhi.  But the ison shifts so much and the scale goes way low and very high and I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be a combination of diatonic and soft chromatic.  I just need something written to work with to the text of the Doxology.

so do you need text and music?  is that what your asking for? 
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 12:58:41 AM »
Not sure where you are getting this from, sounds like some local tradition. The doxasticon of the feast is in Plagal 2 (tone 6 for those of you who wish the use that terminology) so the Great Doxology would be sung in plagal 2 and that is the only only way I have ever heard it done.

This week's notes were prepared by the protopsaltis of the DOWAMA with Bishop BASIL's blessing and direction.  I asked why the Doxology did not follow in the tone as the Doxasticon and he responded thus:   In this instance, since there is a particular melody for the Great Doxology (for the feast of the Cross), the tone does not follow the tone of the doxastikon.  He didn't specify more than that.

Sounds like Dr. Sam found something he likes and can sing. Like I said, never have seen or heard it done that way. Maybe one of the guys from Holy Cross has some input.

All I can say is that the Patriarchate of Constantinople's Typikon has the 4th tone "agia" doxology listed as well...so...whatever his reasoning Bishop Basil was on the same page as constantinople...
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 01:13:04 AM »
I was just reading through a larger and more extensive typikon that I have and it says that the reason why the "agia" version of the doxology is chanted is because a longer/slower or "argo" version of the doxology is supposed to be chanted.  the reason is because in constantinople they have a special service at the point of the doxology where they celebrate the cross coming to constantinople.  three people are supposed to "reenact" the procession of the cross into the holy city, with the patriarch receiving it (as he did with Helen).  At the "agios o theos" the deacon senses around the cross and a table with candles 3 times which then begins a whole service and ritual that is very complicated and would take a long time for me to translate...

hope that helps...
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 01:22:21 AM »
Serb,

thanks for your help. Yes, I am searching for some music I can go off of.  Listening to it from that recording is too much because I don't know where to begin and end.  Actually, I got a few things from the protopsaltis of DOWAMA to help me out and I'll see what I can do.

Your explanation as to why the Agia Doxology is chanted makes sense.  According to the Festal Meanaion, during hte chanting of the Doxology, is when the priests have the procession of the cross.  The problem is that we have never done that at Orthros but have always done the procession after the Liturgy is completed (which has become a parish custom).  Thus the agia doxology is chanted to give the priests the extra time.

I love liturgics. I'm still going to try to learn the agia tone 4 though it's rarely used.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 10:57:00 AM »
Serb,

thanks for your help. Yes, I am searching for some music I can go off of.  Listening to it from that recording is too much because I don't know where to begin and end.  Actually, I got a few things from the protopsaltis of DOWAMA to help me out and I'll see what I can do.

Your explanation as to why the Agia Doxology is chanted makes sense.  According to the Festal Meanaion, during hte chanting of the Doxology, is when the priests have the procession of the cross.  The problem is that we have never done that at Orthros but have always done the procession after the Liturgy is completed (which has become a parish custom).  Thus the agia doxology is chanted to give the priests the extra time.

I love liturgics. I'm still going to try to learn the agia tone 4 though it's rarely used.

Well, I have found the version that was sung on that recording on YouTube if you want it in Greek and in Byzantine Notation.  Just PM me your email and i'll send it to you (its a 856 page book in pdf so its too big to just put up on the site).
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 11:17:14 AM »
^Thanks, Serb, but no thanks. I can't read Byzantine notation.  That's one of the many reasons I wish to go to school so that I can learn these things.  I've tried on my own but it's not possible.  Anyway, I'll do what I can and thanks again for all your help.  It is appreciated.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 11:30:39 AM »
^Thanks, Serb, but no thanks. I can't read Byzantine notation.  That's one of the many reasons I wish to go to school so that I can learn these things.  I've tried on my own but it's not possible.  Anyway, I'll do what I can and thanks again for all your help.  It is appreciated.

Sorry friend...hope you are able to figure it out by next week...
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Offline SakranMM

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2009, 03:24:54 PM »
Just do your best.  Don't worry about it if you don't get the exact tone...most people probably wouldn't know the difference anyway, and I really don't think God cares all that much as long as you put your whole self into it and chant for His glorification.

I'd rather hear a hymn sung in the wrong tone but from the heart, rather than hear it sung in precision with the tone, but arrogantly.
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 04:30:26 PM »
I would discourage you from using the extremely long Doxology for the sake of the people at the service. These Papadaic Modes really require a lot of practice and extreme knowledge of the tone or they can lead to chanting disaster. 
Joseph

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Pappadic/agia tone 4
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2009, 05:58:04 PM »
^That's true, but since we are doing this on a weekday, we'll probably have next to no one show up except for me and the priest.  The problem is that my priest chants the Doxology antiphonally with teh chanters and I don't know how well he knows pappadic tone 4.  Maybe it will be best just to chant it in plagal of tone 2 since that is what the doxasticon is chanted in.
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