Author Topic: Why is Arizona....  (Read 902 times)

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Why is Arizona....
« on: May 26, 2011, 04:25:32 PM »
Does anyone happen to know why Arizona is a part of (in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese) the Metropolis of San Francisco as opposed to that of Denver?  I only ask because Denver is much closer to Arizona than San Francisco, if it were a part of Denver, then all of the Navajo Nation would be under one bishop, and Arizona has far more in common with the rest of the southwest than with the Pacific Coast.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 04:37:01 PM »
Because it's the Greek Orthodox Church not the Navajo Orthodox Church.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 04:40:18 PM »
Well yes, but the Navajo Nation is a political unity.  This is the equivalent of having half of Missouri under Denver and half of it under another Metropolis...oh wait, they do that too...

My point is, by having the Navajo Nation under two bishops, I am sure it greatly complicates things for people in the Navajo Nation.  Regardless, that addresses only one reason that I am confused as to why Arizona was placed under San Francisco as opposed to Denver.
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Offline KBN1

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 05:21:55 PM »
I am of Swedish ancestry and I am part of the OCA diocese of the Midwest.  There are also people of Swedish ancestry in the diocese of the West.  This needs to be resolved.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 05:29:43 PM »
Ethnic churches generally create their dioceses to conform to population and cultural regions of their ethnicity, not of the people in those areas overall (not suggesting that I approve of this). Perhaps the Greeks of Arizona are more connected to those of San Francisco than those of Denver.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 05:34:39 PM »
Well yes, but the Navajo Nation is a political unity.  This is the equivalent of having half of Missouri under Denver and half of it under another Metropolis...oh wait, they do that too...

My point is, by having the Navajo Nation under two bishops, I am sure it greatly complicates things for people in the Navajo Nation.  Regardless, that addresses only one reason that I am confused as to why Arizona was placed under San Francisco as opposed to Denver.

I think you're either overthinking this or not being serious. There's more than just the Greek Archdiocese overseeing the Navajo Nation, which, to my knowledge, has few if any Orthodox Christians in its territory. What of the Antiochians, OCA, ROCOR, Moscow Patriarchate, Serbian Patriarchate, Romanian Patriarchate, Bulgarian Patriarchate, to say nothing of the Ukrainians, Carpatho-Rusyns, Albanians? If there were Navajo wishing to open an Orthodox church, I'm sure they would have no trouble finding a bishop, Greek or otherwise, in Denver, California, Texas, or anywhere else, to help them.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 03:18:13 AM »
I am of Swedish ancestry and I am part of the OCA diocese of the Midwest.  There are also people of Swedish ancestry in the diocese of the West.  This needs to be resolved.

Umm...you do understand the difference between the Navajo Nation (a political territory covering a defined geographical space) and an ethnic group, don't you?

Anyways, perhaps I am just overthinking this.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 06:07:55 AM »
Diocesan borders need not reflect political borders. Provided territories do not overlap (which is the current problem with multiple jurisdictions in predominantly non-Orthodox countries) there is no reason why a particular nation, ethnicity, language group, or state shouldn't be divided between different bishops or jurisdictions.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 07:16:31 AM »
Well that is certainly true, and if I gave the impression that I thought there was something fundamentally wrong with the diocesan borders within the GOAA, I apologize.  I only meant to suggest that there is probably a better way to organize than at present, and was curious if anyone happened to have history on how the States were divided up amongst the Greek dioceses.
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Offline KBN1

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 08:57:08 AM »
I am of Swedish ancestry and I am part of the OCA diocese of the Midwest.  There are also people of Swedish ancestry in the diocese of the West.  This needs to be resolved.

Umm...you do understand the difference between the Navajo Nation (a political territory covering a defined geographical space) and an ethnic group, don't you?

Anyways, perhaps I am just overthinking this.


Yes of course I understand that.  To set ecclesiastical borders within a nation based on either one is equally silly.  And having people under different bishops isn't being divided at all.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 09:46:09 AM »
Christ is risen!

From what I understand, a large number of the general population (and I'm assuming the Orthodox) are ex-Californians.

Is this a burning issue for the Navajo?  God grant!  When I went through their radio station was all evangelical (at least the English, I don't speak Navajo).
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 09:58:46 AM »
There are a large number of ex-Californians here, but having lived here essentially since birth (except from two to four when I was in 29 Palms) I have met a large number of ex-Coloradoans as well (including many who come down to the Valley durig the winter and fall), and a decent number of people from Utah and Nevada.  However, the culture of Arizona is far more in line with New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah than it is with California and Oregon and Washington.

On the Navajo issue, based on the Navajo people I have known who live outside the reservation (I have never lived within the reservation, though I have been in it several times), it seems a large number are evangelicals, with something like 50-60 thousand Catholics, so they make up about a third of the people.  That is part of the reason I think a single bishop being in charge of the Navajo Nation (within the Greek Archdiocese, and ultimately when there is one American jurisdiction, in that jurisdiction as well) is important, because then missionary activities in the Navajo reservation can be better coordinated.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 10:17:27 PM »
There are a large number of ex-Californians here, but having lived here essentially since birth (except from two to four when I was in 29 Palms) I have met a large number of ex-Coloradoans as well (including many who come down to the Valley durig the winter and fall), and a decent number of people from Utah and Nevada.  However, the culture of Arizona is far more in line with New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah than it is with California and Oregon and Washington.

On the Navajo issue, based on the Navajo people I have known who live outside the reservation (I have never lived within the reservation, though I have been in it several times), it seems a large number are evangelicals, with something like 50-60 thousand Catholics, so they make up about a third of the people.  That is part of the reason I think a single bishop being in charge of the Navajo Nation (within the Greek Archdiocese, and ultimately when there is one American jurisdiction, in that jurisdiction as well) is important, because then missionary activities in the Navajo reservation can be better coordinated.

Any idea what work is being done with the Navajo people by Orthodox?

I think your estimate for Navajo Catholics is a bit high.  There are many Navajo Mormons.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 10:41:04 PM »
There are a lot of Navajo around here, obviously, but I have not heard of missionary activity targeted directly at them. I have been saying since I first started attending the COC here in Albuquerque that it would be a good idea to translate some Coptic prayers into Navajo, so as to provide a positive context for interaction with that community. Everyone thinks I'm crazy, but they're not a negligible population, and they need Orthodoxy as much as any other people.

Not for nothing, when I gave a presentation on Coptic chant in one of my courses a while back, one of the students who happened to be a Tohono O'odham elder and native speaker of that language was very keen on how Coptic chant has parallels to his community's traditional religious chant forms (I didn't ask what religion he was; he volunteered this information after I played some audio clips as part of the presentation). He said that it really reminded him of their language and chant, particularly the super-elongated vowels that introduce the melody of the hymn before beginning the main text. I think I was as shocked as he was to find that out. :) There is much work to be done among the native peoples of the Americas. The Russians were famous for working among the Tlingit and native Alaskans. I hope that work is being continued somehow today, or will be taken up again if it has stopped.

And I agree with the thread title: "Why is Arizona"? We next door in NM find Arizona's continued existence puzzling as well.

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Why is Arizona....
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 11:39:24 PM »
I don't know.  The Metropolitan of San Francisco has a large area. :-X