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Author Topic: ALL or MANY?  (Read 7557 times) Average Rating: 0
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Br. Max, OFC
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« on: November 30, 2003, 07:19:18 PM »

the claim that there is an Aramaic word behind
"all" instead of many is just due to Protestant prejudice by J.Jeremias.
This is a lack of scholarship. Jeremias is a fine scholar. But leaving him
aside,we should know that there is a Hebrew word, "rabbim," which means the
all who are many. If I would be in a room with three persons, I could say
all, but could not say many. We first meet this usage not in J. Jeremias
but in the prophecy of Isaiah 53. In verse 6: "The Lord laid upon Him the
iniquity of us all." But then,referring to the same ones,in verses 11 and
12 we find "rabbim:" "My righteous servant will justify "rabbim"...he bore
the sins of "rabbim." Further if one uses a Greek concordance to the New
Testament, he finds that absolutely every time St.Paul uses Greek "polloi"
as a substantive, he means all, even though "polloi" normally in Greek
means many. For example in Romans 5:19: "Just as by the disobedience of the
one,the "polloi" were made sinners, so by the obedience of the one man, the
"polloi" will be constituted just." St. Paul clearly means original sin -
he does not mean only some contract original sin. He means all. The author
says we changed to all to mean all are actually saved. Nonsense. It merely
means Christ died for all. Aramaic "saggi'in" at least at times has the
same sense as Hebrew "rabbim." The Aramaic Targum on Isaiah 53:11 does use
"saggi'in." Cf. E. C. Maloney, "Semitic Interference in Marcan Syntax," pp.
141-42 (Society of Biblical Literature Dissertation 51, 1981).


from: http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/NEWMAS.TXT

comments?
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2003, 03:25:51 PM »

no takers? no comments?
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2003, 03:33:30 PM »

And what does the Orthodox Church say?
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2003, 03:34:27 PM »

I don't know if Eastern Orthodoxy has proclaimed anything either way but its consecration prayers get it right and say 'many'.
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2003, 03:39:49 PM »

2 Cor 5:14 says:

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

This seems to say to me that 'he died for all' but 'they which live' are not the same as the all but rather they which have been brought to life in Christ.

Is there patristic commentary on 2 Corinthians?
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2003, 03:52:07 PM »

Is there patristic commentary on 2 Corinthians?

Not in the New Testament published by Holy Apostles Convent. There is patristic commentary for verses 5:12 and 5:17, but skip over 5:14.

The verse reads as:

"For the love of Christ constraineth us, because we judged this: that if One died for all, then all died;

and He died for all, in order that they who are living no longer are living to themselves, but to Him Who died for them and was raised."


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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2003, 03:59:39 PM »

If Christ did what he did only for "the many" how is that different from the Calvinistic expression of Predestination.  Saying “Many” supposes that there are those for whom Christ did not die, THUS predestining them to hell.
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2003, 04:03:10 PM »

I found St John Chrysostom wrote:

"Ver. 14. "For the love of God constraineth us, because we thus judge."

For not the fear of things to come only,' he saith, but also those which have already happened allow us not to be slothful nor to slumber; but stir us up and impel us to these our labors on your behalf. And what are those things which have already happened?

"That if one died for all, then all died." Surely then it was because all were lost,' saith he. For except all were dead, He had not died for all. For here the opportunities of salvation exist; but there are found no longer. Therefore, he says, "The love of God constraineth us," and allows us not to be at rest. For it cometh of extreme wretchedness and is worse than hell itself, that when He hath set forth an act so mighty, any should be found after so great an instance of His provident care reaping no benefit. For great was the excess of that love, both to die for a world of such extent, and dying for it when in such a state.

Ver. 15. "That they which live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto Him who for their sakes died and rose again."

If therefore we ought not to live unto ourselves, be not troubled,' says he, nor be confounded when dangers and deaths assail you.' And he assigns besides an indubitable argument by which he shows that the thing is a debt. For if through Him we live who were dead; to Him we ought to live through Whom we live. And what is said appears indeed to be one thing, but if any one accurately examine it, it is two: one that we live by Him, another that He died for us: either of which even by itself is enough to make us liable; but when even both are united consider how great the debt is. Yea, rather, there are three things here. For the First-fruits also for thy sake He raised up, and led up to heaven: wherefore also he added, "Who for our sakes died and rose again."

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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2003, 04:22:19 AM »

Not in the New Testament published by Holy Apostles Convent. There is patristic commentary for verses 5:12 and 5:17, but skip over 5:14.

My two volumes of the New Testament from Holy Apostles Convent arrived in the mail yesterday! Yay Grin Cool Grin Cool Grin
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2003, 05:02:07 AM »

How's this?

Christ died for the sake of all, but the many (which may be few) who believe in Him may (will?) be saved.

No predestination there.


(I may be very much out of my depth here.)
Demetri, the very, very simple
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2004, 06:20:59 PM »

How's this?

Christ died for the sake of all, but the many (which may be few) who believe in Him may (will?) be saved.

No predestination there.


(I may be very much out of my depth here.)
Demetri, the very, very simple

then why say in the Mass: "for you and for Many," over the Eucharist?
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2004, 08:34:46 PM »


then why say in the Mass: "for you and for Many," over the Eucharist?  

Sorry, Br.Max,OFC, I do not understand your question or confusion, if 'confusion' is what is the problem.

Demetri
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2004, 03:08:13 AM »

Quote
then why say in the Mass: "for you and for Many," over the Eucharist?  

Either a bad translation or an attempt to change the theology of the RCC even more.  In the Tridentine mass and the latin version of the new missal "for many" is used.   You can only come up with calvinism if you read that into the scriptures.  Taken in context with the rest of liturgy and the scriptures calvinism has no place... besides if the Lord did die for all, He also died for many.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2004, 01:28:37 PM »

Quote
then why say in the Mass: "for you and for Many," over the Eucharist?  

Either a bad translation or an attempt to change the theology of the RCC even more.  In the Tridentine mass and the latin version of the new missal "for many" is used.   You can only come up with calvinism if you read that into the scriptures.  Taken in context with the rest of liturgy and the scriptures calvinism has no place... besides if the Lord did die for all, He also died for many.



Careful +¥+¦+¦-äß+Ç-ü+¦++-é. Our loveable, but still possibly graceless heretic Smiley Br.Max,OFC, is not really wrong here as far as translations go:

+áß+¦+¦-ä+¦ ß+É++ +¦ß+É-ä++-à  -Çß+Ç++-ä+¦-é, -ä++-à -ä++ ß+É-â-ä+¦ -äß+Ç +æß+¦+++¦ ++++-à , -äß+Ç -ä++-é +Ãœ+¦+¦++++-é +ö+¦+¦++ß+á+¦++-é, -äß+Ç ß+É-Çß+É-ü ß+É++-ë++ +¦+¦ß+¦ -Ç++++++-ë++ ß+É+¦-ç-à ++ß+Ç+++¦++++++ +¦ß+¦-é ß+Ç-Ã¥+¦-â+¦++ ß+Ç+++¦-ü-ä+¦-ë++.

 (Polytonic Greek and Microsoft drive me nuts!)

+ö++++ß+á-ä-ü++
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 04:22:20 PM by anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2004, 01:53:47 PM »

I misread, Br. Max's post....since in the current english translation of the RCC mass (which I had thought he was refering to ) "for all" is used.  I know "for many" is what Greek says, so I was just tired and confused I think Wink
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2004, 02:33:15 PM »

I think we're all confused.

I will spell things out as clearly as possible.  

There is some debate over the validity of the liturgy of Paul IV as it compares to the Liturgy of Pius V ( forgive me if I cannot use the improper terms tridentine and novus ordos)  concerning the translation of one phrase, the words spoken over the Chalice during the Consecration.

“Traditional” translations render: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH SHALL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

The Liturgy of Paul VI renders the same text: FOR YOU AND FOR ALL UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

NOW, in the opening post of this thread I posted some linguistic research from EWTN’s site concerning why ALL is used.  My question is: if MANY is used rather than ALL is that not tantamount to the error of Calvinism?  To say that only MANY have the benefit of the shedding of the Blood of Christ, is to also say that there are those whom are excluded from the salvific grace offered in that sacrifice.  This leads to the doctrines of Calvinism which state that God has from eternity predestined some to hell thus negating the doctrine of Free Will.  However, if Christ shed His blood for ALL, even if only MANY would partake of it, Calvinism is refuted.
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2004, 02:33:52 AM »

I misread, Br. Max's post....since in the current english translation of the RCC mass (which I had thought he was refering to ) "for all" is used.  I know "for many" is what Greek says, so I was just tired and confused I think Wink
No, Nektarios, I am the one tired and confused, and who needs to apologise to you for thinking Br.Max, OFC's post concerned the Divine Liturgy inappropriately named.
Silly me...

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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2004, 02:37:53 AM »

ouch.
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2004, 10:30:57 PM »

I found this. The Council of Trent mentions these very things somewhere (if your Orthodox, while Trent is not relevent, your churches use "for many" as well).


The words Pro vobis et pro multis ["For you and for many"] are used to distinguish the virtue of the blood of Christ from its fruits: for the blood of our Savior is of sufficient value to save all men but its fruits are applicable only to a certain number and not to all, and this is their own fault. Or, as the theologians say, this precious blood is [in itself] sufficiently [sufficienter] able to save all men, but [on our part] effectually [effcaciter] it does not save all------it saves only those who co-operate with grace. This is the explanation of St. Thomas, as quoted by Benedict XIV.  [Treatise on the Holy Eucharist, St. Alphonsus Liguori. Quoted in Questioning the Validity of the Masses Using the New, All-English Canon. P. H. Omlor. Athanasius Press. Reno, Nevada. 1969. p. 60 Par. 123.]
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2004, 12:22:14 PM »


“Traditional” translations render: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH SHALL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

The Liturgy of Paul VI renders the same text: FOR YOU AND FOR ALL UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

     Essentially, 'many' is a woodenly literal translation of what Christ said in the words of institution as recorded in Mark.  However, the Greek word 'polloi' or 'many', as your initial post pointed out, is used by St. Paul frequently to mean 'all', because it is being used (as it was in the Septuagint) to overlay/translate a Hebrew/Aramaic word that has the connotation of all.  So, the first liturgical sample is translating woodenly literally from the Greek.  The second is translating for meaning.
    The Tridentine explanation is a pretty classic example of late-Medieval rationalizing after the fact, because the discipline of philology was just then being revived by the Humanists and the real reasoning behind the word had been lost.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2004, 08:19:45 PM »

John: so why all the hubbub over ALL or MANY?  When examined in light of ALL of Scripture and especially the gospels - MANY just does not work.
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2004, 09:58:04 PM »

John: so why all the hubbub over ALL or MANY?  When examined in light of ALL of Scripture and especially the gospels - MANY just does not work.

Because throwbacks like me object to it even though the intent means "for all!"  [LOL but not totally!].

Plainly, "pro multis" in Latin is the translation of the Koine's "hoi polloi."  That's why!  OK, so "hoi polloi" is probably the Greek's not totally precise way of saying the Aramaic "rabbim" [the all who are many?].  "For many" is a phrase that has a certain antiquity to it.  The ICEL  "reformers" [non Calvinistic ones, that is] were insensitive to change a phrase [for the many] that people were used to.

St. Jerome tried to make some changes in phrasing to the Old Latin text using copies of Hebrew manuscripts at his disposal and was accused of being a Judaizer.  People had their pet phrases from the Old Latin texts and did not want them changed.  That's the way I am with "for many."  Another example is some modern translator using "Get away from me Satan" instead of the traditional "Get thee behind me Satan."  I prefer the traditional one myself.  Has more "oomph" to it than the more modern expression.

The interpretation of the phrase belongs in the pulpit and not the ICEL (international commission [for the] emasculation of language).  "pro multis" translates accurately and literally "hoi polloi."  There is no extant aramaic Gospel to my knowledge that is considered an authoritative text.

The issue will NEVER be resolved by us on this board.  And "For ALL" is well entrenched now in the RC mass.  I don't know whether or not the forthcoming English translation of the revised Roman Missal will say "for All" or "for many."  But I'm hoping!



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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2004, 02:21:54 AM »

But you ADMIT that for ALL is more accurate and yet you cling to the "for many?" I cannot grasp that! lol
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2004, 02:22:33 AM »

JBC: I'm telling you that old dogs CAN learn new tricks!
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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2004, 01:24:18 PM »

JBC: I'm telling you that old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

Arf, arf, arf! . . . as my fangs sink into your leg . . . Grin

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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2004, 01:32:44 PM »

I found this. The Council of Trent mentions these very things somewhere (if your Orthodox, while Trent is not relevent, your churches use "for many" as well).


The words Pro vobis et pro multis ["For you and for many"] are used to distinguish the virtue of the blood of Christ from its fruits: for the blood of our Savior is of sufficient value to save all men but its fruits are applicable only to a certain number and not to all, and this is their own fault. Or, as the theologians say, this precious blood is [in itself] sufficiently [sufficienter] able to save all men, but [on our part] effectually [effcaciter] it does not save all------it saves only those who co-operate with grace. This is the explanation of St. Thomas, as quoted by Benedict XIV.  [Treatise on the Holy Eucharist, St. Alphonsus Liguori. Quoted in Questioning the Validity of the Masses Using the New, All-English Canon. P. H. Omlor. Athanasius Press. Reno, Nevada. 1969. p. 60 Par. 123.]

I noticed that you quoted St. Alphonsus and not the Council of Trent!  A similar explanation is in the Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent but I think that this explanation may have been a later addition to the catechism's text, not something that St. Robert Bellarmine who was the principal author of the Catechism put in.  St. Alphonsus was one of the great RC warriors against Jansenism.  I perceive that the aforementioned quote from St. "A" reflects the RC response to the Jansenist controversies of the day.  Yes, I realize that the quote refers to St. Thomas Aquinas, but the issues of "fruits" vs. "efficacy" were most poignantly applicable to the Jansenism in the RCC.

Sorry I was so long in responding to your post and quote from St. "A."  I had my fangs in Bro. Max's leg!!!! Grin

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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2004, 03:36:12 PM »

But you ADMIT that for ALL is more accurate and yet you cling to the "for many?" I cannot grasp that! lol  

OK . . . let's compromise.  Let's get the "powers that be" to change the institution narrative to:




This is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal covenant, which is shed for you and for the all who are many . . . !



Would anybody mind if I insert "the mystery of faith" between "covenant" and "which is shed?"  I have always liked this expression.

Now let's see what bad blood we can cause when we try to get the Orthodox to change their institution narrative!

I need some barbecue sauce for your leg! Tongue

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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2004, 01:22:01 PM »

Jim: We have that there (mystery of faith) . . . of course we don't follow the rules of the RCC our not being RC and all . . .  but we do use the for ALL MEN.  Smiley how’s that for a compromise?  We’ll use all men, but leave in mystery of faith.

BTW - Bite me again, and I'll have you neutered Cheesy *holding up a large pair of wickely sharp scissors*  Grin  Sometimes it takes motivation to teach an old dog new tricks - some times it requires an . . . attitude adjustment!! lol
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2004, 05:49:42 PM »

Jim: We have that there (mystery of faith) . . . of course we don't follow the rules of the RCC our not being RC and all . . .  but we do use the for ALL MEN.  Smiley how’s that for a compromise?  We’ll use all men, but leave in mystery of faith.

BTW - Bite me again, and I'll have you neutered Cheesy *holding up a large pair of wickely sharp scissors*  Grin  Sometimes it takes motivation to teach an old dog new tricks - some times it requires an . . . attitude adjustment!! lol

We (RCC) used to have "For All Men" in the liturgy but the feminists in the RCC got it changed to "For All" after they adjusted the "attitude" of us old male dogs which includes all the RCC bishops extant in AmChurch and elsewhere!  So put away your scissors.  You're too late!!!!! Huh

Jim C.

 . . . now singing a famous aria as a Soprano!
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2004, 09:34:06 PM »

Jim: my condolences. Wink  

I have noticed that there seems to be a problem with rampant feminism in the RCC.  Sad really.  

We continue to fight it off ourselves.  Smiley One the benefits of being non-denominational we can say - "if you don't like it, you can always go to another church."  Grin  We do alot of things the "old fashioned way."  

for example - we have both a high, and a low alter; our tabernacle is LARGE as well as front and center; our alter linens MUST touch the ground . . . . BUT, I digress.


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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2004, 01:40:55 AM »

Jim: my condolences. Wink  

I have noticed that there seems to be a problem with rampant feminism in the RCC.  Sad really.  

We continue to fight it off ourselves.  Smiley One the benefits of being non-denominational we can say - "if you don't like it, you can always go to another church."  Grin  We do alot of things the "old fashioned way."  

for example - we have both a high, and a low alter; our tabernacle is LARGE as well as front and center; our alter linens MUST touch the ground . . . . BUT, I digress.


The AOC priest I referred to in a previous post used to say that the term, feminist nun, (referring to the Catholic ones, not the Orthodox)  is a redundant statement!

It is not true all the time . . . it just seems that way . . . certainly all too often.

The next thing you'll hear is that Mary Magdaline was married to Jesus!  Good grief, Charlie Brown.

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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2004, 04:22:55 AM »

JBC: well that would be because they cannot believe a man CAN be celibate.
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2004, 12:07:26 PM »

Jim: my condolences. Wink  

I have noticed that there seems to be a problem with rampant feminism in the RCC.  Sad really.  

We continue to fight it off ourselves.  Smiley One the benefits of being non-denominational we can say - "if you don't like it, you can always go to another church."  Grin  We do alot of things the "old fashioned way."  

for example - we have both a high, and a low alter; our tabernacle is LARGE as well as front and center; our alter linens MUST touch the ground . . . . BUT, I digress.




So some guy, because of "prophesy," deciding he's a bishop is "old-fashioned" or "traditional?"  I don't think so.  You may have linens and a high altar, but the tradition of the Church (eastern and western) is based on the real authority of bishops handed down from Christ Himself through the Apostles.  Your altar might be prettier than the one at my parish (in fact, I'm sure it is) but the priest saying Mass at my altar was ordained by a valid bishop whose line can be traced all the way back to St. Peter.  Can yours?  No.  

Linens and high altars don't mean a thing without the authority of the Church.  You play catholic with your "old-fashioned" ways but you miss the heart of catholicism which is authority of the Church.  

As a Protestant, you pick and choose what you like from our history and theology.  As catholics, we can't "pick and choose."  We don't read the fathers or the Bible without the authority of the Church.  This protects us from some guy deciding he's a bishop.  It also protects us from misinterpreting the fathers and the Bible, twisting them to meet our preconceived opinions.  

An example of this is your assertion that man is "inherently evil," and that man can't only be "inclined" to sin.  This is not consistent with the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church.  

Join the Church, Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic.  Partake of the Sacraments.  Submit to the authority of a valid bishop.  

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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2004, 03:36:15 PM »

Jennifer - it's time you read Corinthians 1 :12 vv1-31  and again Corinthians 1:13vv 1-13.

I would suggest spending an hour doing so and a period of meditation afterwards.

It's a good job Great Lent is almost upon us  - Please use the time wisely.

I don't know about you but I, also RC, do appreciate Forgiveness Sunday and I will be asking forgiveness of those I may have hurt - will you ?
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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2004, 04:24:35 PM »

Either a bad translation or an attempt to change the theology of the RCC even more.  In the Tridentine mass and the latin version of the new missal "for many" is used.   You can only come up with calvinism if you read that into the scriptures.  Taken in context with the rest of liturgy and the scriptures calvinism has no place... besides if the Lord did die for all, He also died for many.

Careful +¥+¦+¦-äß+Ç-ü+¦++-é. Our loveable, but still possibly graceless heretic Smiley Br.Max,OFC, is not really wrong here as far as translations go:

+áß+¦+¦-ä+¦ ß+É++ +¦ß+É-ä++-à  -Çß+Ç++-ä+¦-é, -ä++-à -ä++ ß+É-â-ä+¦ -äß+Ç +æß+¦+++¦ ++++-à , -äß+Ç -ä++-é +Ãœ+¦+¦++++-é +ö+¦+¦++ß+á+¦++-é, -äß+Ç ß+É-Çß+É-ü ß+É++-ë++ +¦+¦ß+¦ -Ç++++++-ë++ ß+É+¦-ç-à ++ß+Ç+++¦++++++ +¦ß+¦-é ß+Ç-Ã¥+¦-â+¦++ ß+Ç+++¦-ü-ä+¦-ë++.

 (Polytonic Greek and Microsoft drive me nuts!)

+ö++++ß+á-ä-ü++


Strange, I tried to edit your post so that it would come out right in Polytonic (by putting it in Palatino Linotype which is unicode supported) and it seems the acute accents are replaced by soft breathings.... hmmmm.


This site does support Greek Polytonic as long as it is in the font Palatino Linotype which you can select in the options menu.

anastasios
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2004, 04:43:04 PM »

Jennifer,

While I agree with the substance of your posting it did seem to be unprovoked and you could have expressed yourself more politely.

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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2004, 04:50:23 PM »

Hi Anastasios

I think you've made a mistake with that tag. The correct spelling of [color] is [colour] Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2004, 06:25:57 PM »

Peter,

LOL

anastasios
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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2004, 06:53:45 PM »

Quote
I think you've made a mistake with that tag. The correct spelling of [color] is [colour]

In America we have all the "Victory" letters removed. Cheesy
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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2004, 07:13:39 PM »

Jennifer - it's time you read Corinthians 1 :12 vv1-31  and again Corinthians 1:13vv 1-13.

I would suggest spending an hour doing so and a period of meditation afterwards.

It's a good job Great Lent is almost upon us  - Please use the time wisely.

I don't know about you but I, also RC, do appreciate Forgiveness Sunday and I will be asking forgiveness of those I may have hurt - will you ?

Save your preaching.  I find it tiresome.  And I don't need your suggestions for how to spend my time.  

I'll tell people they need to do some reading (some around here desperately need to do some reading!) or to expand their horizons a bit, but I never tell people they need to pray.  That's so sanctimonious.  Don't be so self important.  

He's not a member of the Church, end of discussion, and he should join the Church.  I'm sure he'd still be as aggravating as a member of the Church as he as a Protestant but at least he'd have the grace of the sacraments.  


You have been warned for being rude to "the slave".  Give me a break Jennifer, she is one of the nicest people on the planet and if you are offending *her* you need to realize YOU are the one with the nastiness problem.

~Anastasios
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2004, 10:28:08 AM »

JBC: to get back to our dicussion . . .
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2004, 03:51:29 PM »

JBC: to get back to our dicussion . . .

Back to the discussion!!!!!  I thought we agreed it was "the all who are many" and "the mystery of faith" . . . and . . . you don't really need your scissors because the job has already been done! Shocked

BTW, your leg taste great with barbecue sauce! Grin

Jim

PS:  Could we have the institution narrative/words of consecration in latin?  It would avoid this whole English language mess! Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2004, 08:05:33 PM »

Pre Vatican II

Hic est enim Calix S+ínguinis Mei, novi et +ªt+¬rni testam+¬nti: Myst+¬rium F+¡dei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effund+¬tur in remissi+¦nem peccat+¦rum.

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Accipite et bibite ex eo omnes: hic est enim calix Sanguinis mei novi et aeterni testamenti, qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum.  Hoc facite in meam commemorationem.
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2004, 12:53:35 AM »

Back to the discussion!!!!!  I thought we agreed it was "the all who are many" and "the mystery of faith" . . . and . . . you don't really need your scissors because the job has already been done! Shocked

BTW, your leg taste great with barbecue sauce! Grin

Jim

PS:  Could we have the institution narrative/words of consecration in latin?  It would avoid this whole English language mess! Cheesy



Why on earth would we have any part of the liturgy in a dead foreign language?  I look at it this way - the apostles had the liturgy in the vernacular - the GREEKS still do, so why on earth shouldn't we have it in a language collectively spoken?  I have no problem with masses in Latin for those who know Latin, but how many Americans do you know who speak Latin?  Most can't even speak proper English!  I’m not saying we should have an ebonics or a dialect driven liturgy, but lets at least have it in something were people know the words Smiley.  I mean is so very wrong to make the liturgy relevant to those who are participating?
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2004, 12:54:55 AM »

MOR: I think he was asking for the narrative to be done in latin rather than for it to be posted in latin Smiley
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