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Author Topic: Salvation for non-Christians?  (Read 3761 times) Average Rating: 0
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Thegra
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« on: September 09, 2009, 12:40:48 AM »

I'm curious, does the Orthodox church have an official view on this? Is it exclusivist, inclusivist, or pluralist?

I personally lean towards an inclusive/partly pluralistic view. (That is, it's possible for someone to find God through another religion, since it may contain parts of the Truth. God wouldn't condemn them for having been indoctrinated into another religion.) Is this acceptable?
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 12:44:37 AM »

None of the above. The Church teaches that Orthodox Christians will be saved. We make no judgment for anyone else.
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 01:05:54 AM »

I do not know where the quote is from, but doesn't St. Paul teach that those who have not seen the message of Christ will be judged by their works?
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 01:15:58 AM »

As to the salvation of those who have not consciously rejected Christ, we have the words of St. Theophan the Recluse to guide us into a correct Orthodox understanding:

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them?
They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being.
He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such
concern. Study yourself and your own sins...
."


And there are the words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian. 


"It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


N.B:  "The Lord...undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation
In His own way."

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 01:20:28 AM »


I think that Khomiakov says it nicely, without blurring the boundaries of the Church, and among the Russian Orthodox this is considered an accurate way of describing the salvation of those outside the Church:

'Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and ... does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day'

~ From "The Church is One"
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 01:24:45 AM »

It depends on who you talk to.  There is no unified consensus.

The normative statement is that there is no salvation (some say grace) outside of the Orthodox Church.  With grace, some debate over whether Sacramental ('of the Mysteries') Grace exists outside the Church; others point out that the power of the Holy Spirit permeates everything in the created world.

St. Paul talks about the law of God being written on the heart of every man (Romans 1:20-21), and St. John speaks of Christ as the Light which enlightens every man who comes into the world (John 1:9).  So many in the Church feel that God is working even outside of the Church, drawing all men unto Himself (John 12:32).

Christ also says that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him (John 14:6).  Some use this exclusively to say that only Christians receive salvation, but I believe that this passage teaches us that all who receive salvation receive it through Jesus Christ alone, whether or not they currently recognize Him or have any knowledge of Him.

Also, the Septuagint teaches in the Psalms that the gods of the nations are demons, so we must understand that there is a danger in other religions, and they while they may contain elements of the truth, ultimately they are perversions of the truth and thus require the work of Christ to be fulfilled.

So individuals within Orthodoxy might give you all sorts of different answers, but the most uniform response you will get about who God will save outside of the Church is that we simply do not know.  Even being in the Church is no guarantee of salvation; it's not a free ticket.  We must cooperate with God and experience a rebirth, as well as the renewing of our minds.
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 01:43:05 AM »

It depends on who you talk to.  There is no unified consensus.

The normative statement is that there is no salvation ... outside of the Orthodox Church.

I don't see this as an adequate description of what the Orthodox believe.

If you ask the Orthodox: "Do you believe that those outside the Church are damned?"  I would be very amazed if anyone said Yes.   And I know that they would not be able to justify this very idiosyncratic belief from any source seen as authoritative by the Orthodox - the Bible, the Tradition, the Ecumenical Councils, the Liturgy.

Where you start to get a variety of different answers is when you ask:  "HOW are those outside the Church saved?"   There are quite a few ideas on that.  None are authoritative.  Why?  Simply because Christ has not revealed the "how" to the Church.

Btw, the Orthodox Churches will bury those non-Orthodox who die in an Orthodox country, Greece, Russia, etc., where there is no clergyman of their own faith to conduct a funeral.  That indicates that they do not believe these people are doomed.

Have a look at
"The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church" by Patrick Barnes
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 01:50:45 AM »

Do you believe that those outside the Church are damned?

You simply read what I wrote differently than I intended.  By "no salvation outside of the Church" I did not mean that all outside of Orthodox membership are immediately damned.  I meant that any salvation that occurs will occur through Christ, and hence through the Church, as we are His very members on this earth.
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 01:57:45 AM »

Do you believe that those outside the Church are damned?

You simply read what I wrote differently than I intended.  By "no salvation outside of the Church" I did not mean that all outside of Orthodox membership are immediately damned.  I meant that any salvation that occurs will occur through Christ, and hence through the Church, as we are His very members on this earth.

  I actually suspected that this is what you had in mind but it simply was not clear and to leave it as it stood could have given an enquirer the impression that the Orthodox believe the non-Orthodox are damned.
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 02:58:05 AM »

I personally think that anyone who wants to be a participant in the Kingdom of God will have to convert to Orthodox Christianity. In that way I am somewhat inclined to exclusivism on the subject of salvation (though not on the subject of truth in other religions). However, as to the opportunities given for conversion, I will not say that any who does not convert before death is certainly damned. On the contrary, I would be inclined to say that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" is pointing towards all eventually converting to Orthodox Christianity, even if it be beyond death.

But that's my POV, and isn't necessarily the teaching of the Church.
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 10:55:13 AM »


There is really no "official" teaching on this within Orthodoxy. Of course Orthodoxy is less inclined to declare things "official" dogma or teaching than some Western confessions are so that is not really that big of a problem. You'll find a great many doctrines we hold are not "dogmatic" teachings, in the sense that say Roman Catholics would use the term. However, even though there is no "official" teaching, the majority concensus seems to be that indeed people who are not in the Church, or not Christian may be "saved"...there is certainly no doctrine that I've ever read that follows the line of thought of some Baptists in the America that "even people who have never heard of Christ are doomed to hell"....if there was or is an Orthodox theologian who ever wrote or said something like that they are a lone voice amidst the vast Tradition of the fathers, saints, and theologians both ancient and modern who say the opposite.

There are many, many analogies that have been used over the centuries for the Church, but all seem to come with a possibility that those outside the Church most certainly can be saved. (especially people who have not heard the Gospel) A few thoughts like this would be something like, "We know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't" . . .. "the Church is the Ark of Salvation and thus the safest way of crossing the tempest, but that doesn't mean someone else might not build a small row boat and make it across the sea too, it's just a lot harder in a row boat" . . . there are plenty of little sayings like that and many I've long since forgotten. But they all seem to follow Paul's idea in Romans that people  will be judged by the light that they have been given. God is NOT unjust, and God is not cruel or unfair, and so I don't see God judging people for something they have no knowledge of. But as Paul says, the Creation itself preaches the Gospel, and declares God's glory, and so there is in some sense a "knowledge" that people have of God.

As for other religions, well, even many of the Church fathers talked about the ancient Pagan religions containing quite a bit of Truth, (though some fathers were totally against Paganism as being "evil" or of the devil, many were not and saw much good and Truth in them, though not the fullness of Truth, but rather as signposts pointing to the ultimate Truth which is Christ.

 People who study non Christian religions, will find that they do contain Truth IMO, yes, some more than others for sure, but I don't think any historical religion is completely void of sign posts pointing to Christ. I remember listening to a lecture about the Orthodox mission to Alaska, and how many times when Natives would listen to the Missionaries they'd say something to the effect, "wow we already believe a lot of this, but now we perceive what we believed was "pointing" to a more ultimate Truth...can we be baptized?" (I paraphrase of course, but you get the idea)

Now before someone says, "well if everyone can be saved anyways, why preach to them at all"...and my answer is that "getting to heaven" is not the only goal of being a Christian. I don't think Christianity can be dumbed down to simply "going to heaven when you die" type of stuff. (forget that that's not really proper theology to begin with...because there will be an ultimate Resurrection and Restoration that "going to heaven" completely leaves out) But there is a lot more to Salvation than just going to heaven, or making sure we're part of the "in" group at Resurrection day. Salvation in Christ is more than just a ticket to eternal bliss, but as Christ said, He came to give life and LIFE more abundantly. There is something within Christianity, and within Orthodoxy in particular that I don't think can be acheived outside the Church. These are aspects of the Christian life like the empowering of the Holy Spirit to walk in the Spirit, to live in the Spirit, to live in the present reality that the Kingdom of God has come on earth, and yet that it is not fully "realized"...only inaugurated. The Gospel is "good news", but what is the good news? Merely a "ticket to heaven"? I think that's just too narrow of a view...the good news is all encompassing, a new way of seeing the world in Christ, that I personally think can only be realized in it's fullest within the Church. And so to me, that is the ultimate reason of preaching the Gospel even if one is practically a universalist (which I'm not and is not the Orthodox position) but even if it were, there is a whole lot more to being a Christian than just that "ticket to heaven" that certain Fundamentalists seem to narrow the Gospel down to. I want the LIFE in Christ....the hope, the love, that the saints and martyrs expressed...(not that I want to be martyred of course I'm far to weak for that). However I only type this because I'm sure someone would have asked the question "why preach at all if non Christians can be saved"...and this is my answer, although perhaps it doesn't make much sense...lol!


As for the idea of "mere" Salvation, ie: "going to heaven/being a part of the Resurrection unto life"....well, Christ as God, and King and Judge can save whoever He wants to save, and condemn whoever He wants to condemn. If this means saving every Hindu on the planet and sending every Christian to hell, well, He's the ultimate Judge and He gets to do it. Even if it disagrees with our theology. Which is why the best advice IMO is the old saying, for us to worry about our own walk with Christ, and no anyone elses. I think that is the closest you'll ever come to an "official" position, because frankly we don't know. And I think that's how it's meant to be.



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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 11:06:21 AM »

Just wanted to add for clarity that even if people of other faiths are "saved" it is still Christ who is doing the saving. Christ is the one path, however as I said, since He is the Ultimate Judge on the last day, (according to the Christian faith) it is He who makes the decision. So even if atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Wiccans are "saved" it is still Christ doing the saving, and not Krishna, or anyone else. Whether it be through whatever Truths found in those religions, or whatever...all truth points to the one Truth, and all Salvation comes through Christ and Christ alone. So while I certainly believe non Christians can be saved, I also am certain that the words of Christ are also true, that He is the way the Truth and the Life. I don't think these two things are automatically opposed to each other like some of our Fundamentalist Protestant friends do.
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2009, 11:18:23 AM »

Excellent. Thank you all for your replies!
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 12:04:41 AM »

I have a related question. What is the best and most honest way to explain this idea to a nonorthodox person? I have some family members (protestants) who are interested in my newfound faith, but they're also scared off or bothered by the "exclusiveness" of orthodoxy. Even the fact of "We don't know" bothers people.  I don't want to whitewash over the truth, but I don't want to make Orthodoxy seem angry and judgemental either.  It is really the least outwardly judgemental form of Christianity that I have seen. (I guess people are just uncomfortable with anything besides "big tent" Christianity.)

(long-time lurker, first-time poster Smiley )
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 12:15:51 AM »

I have a related question. What is the best and most honest way to explain this idea to a nonorthodox person? I have some family members (protestants) who are interested in my newfound faith, but they're also scared off or bothered by the "exclusiveness" of orthodoxy. Even the fact of "We don't know" bothers people.  I don't want to whitewash over the truth, but I don't want to make Orthodoxy seem angry and judgemental either.  It is really the least outwardly judgemental form of Christianity that I have seen. (I guess people are just uncomfortable with anything besides "big tent" Christianity.)

(long-time lurker, first-time poster Smiley )

Welcome to the forum! I love your avatar!

A lot about our theology bothers people. Unless you are intentionally saying inflammatory and insulting remarks, you can't control their reaction. I have many Protestant members in my family who are disturbed by my Orthodox faith. So I pray for them.

If they ask if you are "saved," you can show them this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAlCze3ZFjA

God bless,

Maureen
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 01:21:32 AM »

Thank you, Maureen. Smiley  St. Chrysostom is one of my early favorites.

I am thankful that none of my family or friends are really "disturbed", but some are concerned. Honesty, humility and prayer certainly are the best paths to take. And that was a wonderful video which I will be sure to share if the need arises.
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 11:18:09 AM »

I have a related question. What is the best and most honest way to explain this idea to a nonorthodox person? I have some family members (protestants) who are interested in my newfound faith, but they're also scared off or bothered by the "exclusiveness" of orthodoxy. Even the fact of "We don't know" bothers people.  I don't want to whitewash over the truth, but I don't want to make Orthodoxy seem angry and judgemental either.  It is really the least outwardly judgemental form of Christianity that I have seen. (I guess people are just uncomfortable with anything besides "big tent" Christianity.)


Well since you're family are Protestants, as long as they accept Orthodoxy as being Christian (not all Protestants do) I for one don't think that it is much of a problem. I have many Protestant friends and they simply see Orthodoxy as yet another (albeit quite ancient and interesting) valid expression of the Christian faith. I never get into the "we are the Church and you're not" type stuff. So a lot of that doesn't come up.

However, if it is raised at some point,  the best way I've explained it is simply that Christ is the ultimate judge and He can save whomever He chooses. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan....etc...(since they are Protestants you might want to leave out the non-Christian faiths at first...lol!)

I also think it's important to point out to them that just because someone is Orthodox does NOT mean they have any sort of automatic ticket to heaven. It's not as if everyone who is Orthodox will attain to the Resurrection of life, and then maybe a few non Orthodox might make it too...so when we say "we don't know" we don't just mean "them" but "us" as well. So depending on their questions it might be a point you could make. But then that gets dicey if they are "eternal security" Christians....so it really depends on where they are.

Also, some Protestants believe that Catholics/Orthodox Christianity teaches once you're baptized that's your automatic "in" that cannot be lost, and that's simply not what we believe at all. (though I'm sure a few poorly catechized Catholics/Orthodox do think that, it's not the actual teaching at all)

It's kind of hard to give broad advice because Protestantism is so multi-layered with many different points of view.  It all depends on where they are....I mean if they're Anglicans it's a lot easier to discuss Church history than with say a Baptist. The emphasis is just different. The last thing, and the most important thing is to make the point that in the end it is ALWAYS Christ that saves, and not any Church...not even "THE CHURCH"...but Christ...whom as an Orthodox I believe is most "present" within Orthodoxy, but one thing you never tell a Protestant is something to make them think the Church is what saves as opposed to Christ.

Sorry thats not more help, but it really does depend on a lot of different ideas they may have about Christianity, the Church, and Salvation in general.

In Peace.... NP

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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 11:22:14 AM »

I have a related question. What is the best and most honest way to explain this idea to a nonorthodox person? I have some family members (protestants) who are interested in my newfound faith, but they're also scared off or bothered by the "exclusiveness" of orthodoxy. Even the fact of "We don't know" bothers people.  I don't want to whitewash over the truth, but I don't want to make Orthodoxy seem angry and judgemental either.  It is really the least outwardly judgemental form of Christianity that I have seen. (I guess people are just uncomfortable with anything besides "big tent" Christianity.)

(long-time lurker, first-time poster Smiley )

I know that often we hear the phrase "we don't know"  I personally think the best phrase we use is "we don't judge" that belongs to our Savior  alone who  judges all in the end. What we do know is all that we need for Salvation is here within the Orthodox Church.

Thomas
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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 06:01:44 PM »

The Church teaches that Orthodox Christians will be saved.
Ah, but who really is an Orthodox Christian? Thar's the rub, matey.
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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 06:10:44 PM »

I like to think of life as a race {as did St.Paul}..we who are Orthodox are running free while those who are not have their legs tied together..we have the full grace of the Holy Church...we have an advantage of having the full experience of the Holy Ghost, the sacraments etc....and what is important is how WE use it..
we have to pray that all will be saved even satan and the demons..love won't allow otherwise.
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 07:48:47 PM »

Thank you for your comments everyone. Smiley

NorthernPines, I think that's the important thing. They think Orthodoxy is a little...exotic...but so long as it's Christian (and Trinitarian), no one has issues with me over it. The fear of my judgement is probably the biggest issue. I am only starting my journey, but I know I need to get my own house in order before I start giving out advice to others!
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 08:52:56 AM »

I do not know where the quote is from, but doesn't St. Paul teach that those who have not seen the message of Christ will be judged by their works?
Click here to read Romans 2:9-16!
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 09:28:23 AM »

The Church teaches that Orthodox Christians will be saved.
Ah, but who really is an Orthodox Christian? Thar's the rub, matey.
Simple. Those who are baptised into the Orthodox Christian Church.
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 09:31:05 AM »

The Church teaches that Orthodox Christians will be saved.
Ah, but who really is an Orthodox Christian? Thar's the rub, matey.
Simple. Those who are baptised into the Orthodox Christian Church.

And have not participated in sacraments of other Churches.
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 01:07:53 PM »

The Church teaches that Orthodox Christians will be saved.
Ah, but who really is an Orthodox Christian? Thar's the rub, matey.
Simple. Those who are baptised into the Orthodox Christian Church.

And have not participated in sacraments of other Churches.
Ah, yes, that too.
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