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Author Topic: Evangelicalism and Capitalism  (Read 2389 times) Average Rating: 0
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DennyB
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« on: December 19, 2009, 07:51:05 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?

It also seems to me that Evangelicalism is anti-communial,very individualistic,the very things that are counter to Socialism.
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 07:53:52 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?


If the Evangelicals mean to serve the poor, then yes. If they are about squeezing God for goods and services, then no.
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 07:59:12 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?


If the Evangelicals mean to serve the poor, then yes. If they are about squeezing God for goods and services, then no.

Good Point.
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 08:14:57 PM »

The Evangelical Baptists survived the Soviet regime in the former USSR. They managed to teach their children their faith, despite great persecution. They seemed to have, and still have, a strong sense of community etc.
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

The Evangelical Baptists survived the Soviet regime in the former USSR. They managed to teach their children their faith, despite great persecution. They seemed to have, and still have, a strong sense of community etc.

I believe it was because they had to adapt under a heavy oppressive government,in China and other countries like it you would probably see the very same thing,I'm not sure you would have similar results here in the US, Evangelicalism here seems to be very market oriented religion,it's about selling a product,and personalities. Of course I'm sure over time they would learn to.
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2009, 09:16:54 PM »

Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals. There are others who are different-the more conservative elements with whom most people don't seem very familiar.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2009, 09:30:52 PM »

Quote
Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 11:54:36 PM »

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Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh
"Evangelical" is a one-size-fits-all pejorative. Very rarely is it meant to refer to actual evangelizing.

(And yes, they do exist. I know a few personally).
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 11:40:08 AM »

Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals. There are others who are different-the more conservative elements with whom most people don't seem very familiar.

Probably because they are marginalized fringe elements of the mainline denomination.  I was a member of one, the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church.  As to the original post, I believe that Protestant Christianity and Capitalism go hand in hand.  Form my experience as a former insider (father a pastor, me an elder), and having attended not only the "conservative" Churches, but also being involved in the so called Charismatic Movement, I really don't consider Evangelical Protestants as a religion as much as a business.  Their churches are run as businesses, and the whole movement is about little more than filling the church to keep the cash flow coming.  And it was that way in every church I attended for the first 30 years of my life.  That was also what turned me away from the first SCOBA Orthodox Churches that I attended.  They seemed to me little more than Evangelicals with censors, in virtually every way (including the Liberal theology).  Fortunately, I have since found that the conservative elements of the Orthodox Church are not as much on the fringe (except possibly in this country) as the conservative elements of Protestant Evangelicalism.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2009, 01:33:45 PM »

Quote
Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh

Ha. By "liberal", I meant those who live exactly like mainstream society and do not have sober, orderly church services, etc.
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2009, 02:23:32 PM »

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Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh

Wouldn't many African American congregations fall under this category? They would be both Evangelical, Charismatic, Pentecostal etc and politically liberal too.
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 03:00:59 PM »

Free market economy translates to free market religion.  Individualism and the entrepreneurial spirit goes hand in hand with evangelicalism. (Starting up one's own church is alot like an small business owner with their own "bright" ideas) Sola Scriptura also plays right into this mindframe.  Many evangelical churches (especially the mega-varieties) are ran and marketed like businesses. The similarities are numerous.
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 03:02:24 PM »

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Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh

Ya. Take the methodists for example.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 07:34:33 PM »

Quote
Of course, you are talking about the liberal american evangelicals.

I wasn't aware that such a creature existed Huh

The mega church movement is rapidly producing such creatures. T.D. Jakes and the like downplay moral issues like abortion and homosexuality and emphasize a quasi "social gospel" that is part health and wealth prosperity and part easy believism. Jakes is big Obama supporter.

Jim Wallis is another of these creatures that downplays abortion and homosexuality while focusing almost exclusively on "poverty." His book God's Politics is specifically designed to get evangelicals to align themsleves with liberal politics.

And of course the Jimmy Carter types have been around for quite a while. So, the liberal American evanglical is no mythical creature.  Wink

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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 11:50:30 PM »

Free market economy translates to free market religion.  Individualism and the entrepreneurial spirit goes hand in hand with evangelicalism. (Starting up one's own church is alot like an small business owner with their own "bright" ideas) Sola Scriptura also plays right into this mindframe.  Many evangelical churches (especially the mega-varieties) are ran and marketed like businesses. The similarities are numerous.

See Weber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 12:40:15 PM »

Jim Wallis is another of these creatures that downplays abortion and homosexuality while focusing almost exclusively on "poverty." His book God's Politics is specifically designed to get evangelicals to align themsleves with liberal politics.
I have an autographed copy of that book from when he spoke at my university. Interesting man; I thoroughly enjoyed his lecture. His discussions on the Biblical call to love and serve our neighbours was a refreshing departure from the typical evangelical mantra of "gays are baby-killing zombies controlled by Stalin's necromancer." Unfortunately, where Wallis gets it wrong (in my opinion) is that he claims Jesus' primary mission was the equalization of socioeconomic status. While there's much in Christianity to support a view that we as Christians must help the poor, it's a far cry from saying poverty relief is equal--let alone superior--to Christ's redemptive work.
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 01:08:04 PM »

Jim Wallis is another of these creatures that downplays abortion and homosexuality while focusing almost exclusively on "poverty." His book God's Politics is specifically designed to get evangelicals to align themsleves with liberal politics.
I have an autographed copy of that book from when he spoke at my university. Interesting man; I thoroughly enjoyed his lecture. His discussions on the Biblical call to love and serve our neighbours was a refreshing departure from the typical evangelical mantra of "gays are baby-killing zombies controlled by Stalin's necromancer." Unfortunately, where Wallis gets it wrong (in my opinion) is that he claims Jesus' primary mission was the equalization of socioeconomic status. While there's much in Christianity to support a view that we as Christians must help the poor, it's a far cry from saying poverty relief is equal--let alone superior--to Christ's redemptive work.

I was excited to read the book, because I am neither a conservative nor a liberal and I thought that he might actually be serious about cutting through the political propaganda and analyzing issues from a purely biblical standpoint. But I was very disappointed by his argumentation. His main thesis seemed to be that Jesus' primary concern is for "the least of these," and therefore Christians should prioritize the issue of poverty over all other issues. But the thing I never understand about that kind of reasoning is how anyone can logically conclude that the unborn child is not also "the least of these."

In my opinion, we shouldn't dichotomize the issues of poverty and abortion. As Christians we should have compassion and concern for the poor, the imprisoned, the victims of war, and the helpless unborn child. For they all constitute "the least of these." And from a political standpoint, I don't see any party that prioritizes all these issues. 

As I mentioned, Wallis downplays the issue of abortion while elevating the issue of poverty. I think that is a false and dangerous dichotomy. So that's why I found the book very weak and very disappointing.

Selam
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »

Jim Wallis is another of these creatures that downplays abortion and homosexuality while focusing almost exclusively on "poverty." His book God's Politics is specifically designed to get evangelicals to align themsleves with liberal politics.
I have an autographed copy of that book from when he spoke at my university. Interesting man; I thoroughly enjoyed his lecture. His discussions on the Biblical call to love and serve our neighbours was a refreshing departure from the typical evangelical mantra of "gays are baby-killing zombies controlled by Stalin's necromancer." Unfortunately, where Wallis gets it wrong (in my opinion) is that he claims Jesus' primary mission was the equalization of socioeconomic status. While there's much in Christianity to support a view that we as Christians must help the poor, it's a far cry from saying poverty relief is equal--let alone superior--to Christ's redemptive work.

I was excited to read the book, because I am neither a conservative nor a liberal and I thought that he might actually be serious about cutting through the political propaganda and analyzing issues from a purely biblical standpoint. But I was very disappointed by his argumentation. His main thesis seemed to be that Jesus' primary concern is for "the least of these," and therefore Christians should prioritize the issue of poverty over all other issues. But the thing I never understand about that kind of reasoning is how anyone can logically conclude that the unborn child is not also "the least of these."

In my opinion, we shouldn't dichotomize the issues of poverty and abortion. As Christians we should have compassion and concern for the poor, the imprisoned, the victims of war, and the helpless unborn child. For they all constitute "the least of these." And from a political standpoint, I don't see any party that prioritizes all these issues. 

As I mentioned, Wallis downplays the issue of abortion while elevating the issue of poverty. I think that is a false and dangerous dichotomy. So that's why I found the book very weak and very disappointing.
Agreed on all points. I think, though, that Wallis only downplays abortion because for so many evangelicals it is their only concern. I think he wants evangelicals to realize that there are other socioreligious issues besides that one. In fact, when he spoke at my university, he was specifically asked about abortion. He said that it is an evil and terrible thing, and that we should do all that we can to reduce the number of abortions, but that the way most evangelicals go about it is not going to solve the problem. He advocated poverty relief (surprise!) as the most effective way of reducing the number of abortions.
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 02:28:01 PM »

He advocated poverty relief (surprise!) as the most effective way of reducing the number of abortions.

A common refrain. The problem, however, is that the wealthy are having abortions too. Abortion is truly an equal opportunity destroyer, ensnaring rich and poor, black and white in its ugly and demonic net.

We should seek to eradicate (not merely reduce) poverty because poverty afflicts those created in the image of God. And we should seek to eradicate abortion for the very same reason. Loving God and loving our neighbor means that we should never callously disregard any issue that involves human suffering. But unfortunately, politics compartmentalizes these various issues so that Christians become divided over their particular pet causes. Wallis diminishes abortion in the same way that many Pro-Lifers diminish poverty.

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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 03:45:18 PM »

He advocated poverty relief (surprise!) as the most effective way of reducing the number of abortions.

A common refrain. The problem, however, is that the wealthy are having abortions too. Abortion is truly an equal opportunity destroyer, ensnaring rich and poor, black and white in its ugly and demonic net.

We should seek to eradicate (not merely reduce) poverty because poverty afflicts those created in the image of God. And we should seek to eradicate abortion for the very same reason. Loving God and loving our neighbor means that we should never callously disregard any issue that involves human suffering. But unfortunately, politics compartmentalizes these various issues so that Christians become divided over their particular pet causes. Wallis diminishes abortion in the same way that many Pro-Lifers diminish poverty.
Exactly.
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2009, 11:36:24 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?

It also seems to me that Evangelicalism is anti-communial,very individualistic,the very things that are counter to Socialism.


Watch this (A BBC documentary):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8477831376519661961&ei=h8Y2S-bKE8O5lQf_4tC8Dw&q=The+Protestant+Revolution+-+Part+4# (The Protestant Revolution - Part 4: No Rest for the Wicked)

As well as this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6097384522697862795&ei=iNc2S8icGoODlgfsq-TRDw&q=descent+of+the+holy+spirit+independance&hl=en# (American Idols: Independence and Individualism)




Yes, there is a connection between the two, however, since protestantism as a whole is severely fragmented and since in North America it has a strong tendency to keep changing according to the whims of American culture. I will say that eventually some forms of protestantism will survive in a socialistic/communistic environment. Some forms will die out, but others will prosper....and only because protestantism as a whole keeps changing it's colors like a chameleon. It keeps changing it's Biblical interpretations.

A good book to check out is:
http://www.amazon.com/Christianitys-Dangerous-Idea-Revolution-Twenty-First/dp/0060822139



It looks at how various forms of protestantism changed a number of interpretations over the centuries.



I also read in a number of history books....as well as other books, that when the Prespyterian puritans came to America, they changed to a more congregational form of church government. I also read  or heard that some of them tried to live communial, but it didn't work out for them, and so, they became more capitalistic in nature. I read somewhere that the early french calvinists were capitolists, and that when the puritan congregationalists went to Hawawii, they were very much into comerce / capitalism.......etc.








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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 10:11:02 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?

It also seems to me that Evangelicalism is anti-communial,very individualistic,the very things that are counter to Socialism.


Watch this (A BBC documentary):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8477831376519661961&ei=h8Y2S-bKE8O5lQf_4tC8Dw&q=The+Protestant+Revolution+-+Part+4# (The Protestant Revolution - Part 4: No Rest for the Wicked)

As well as this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6097384522697862795&ei=iNc2S8icGoODlgfsq-TRDw&q=descent+of+the+holy+spirit+independance&hl=en# (American Idols: Independence and Individualism)




Yes, there is a connection between the two, however, since protestantism as a whole is severely fragmented and since in North America it has a strong tendency to keep changing according to the whims of American culture. I will say that eventually some forms of protestantism will survive in a socialistic/communistic environment. Some forms will die out, but others will prosper....and only because protestantism as a whole keeps changing it's colors like a chameleon. It keeps changing it's Biblical interpretations.

A good book to check out is:
http://www.amazon.com/Christianitys-Dangerous-Idea-Revolution-Twenty-First/dp/0060822139



It looks at how various forms of protestantism changed a number of interpretations over the centuries.



I also read in a number of history books....as well as other books, that when the Prespyterian puritans came to America, they changed to a more congregational form of church government. I also read  or heard that some of them tried to live communial, but it didn't work out for them, and so, they became more capitalistic in nature. I read somewhere that the early french calvinists were capitolists, and that when the puritan congregationalists went to Hawawii, they were very much into comerce / capitalism.......etc.








ICXC NIKA


A very intresting video,It speaks very well to the fact that the "love of money" is the root of all sorts of evil!!   One of the results of Protestantism and of Capitalism throughout it's history I believe was it's neglect of the poor,over time it seems that they viewed anyone who was poor,was one that was also idle,that somehow in a Capitalistic Protestant society NO ONE should be poor,it seems to me to be a stereotype,just because someone is less fortunate,doesn't make them idle.   


I believe in the re-distribution of wealth,but one that is done out of charity,and not mandated or coerced by any government!!
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« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 10:39:43 PM »

Simple are the words of truth.  Smiley John Calvin was the first to accept capitalist profit. The Fathers condemn it strongly, because it comes out of injustice -"arpagi" is called in hellenistic greek language, sth like robbery. They think -e.g. Nicodemus the Athonite- that penance and Sacrament of Confession must bring about the return of the unjust earnings. An enlightening example of the New Testament is Zacchaeus who, after penance to Christ, returned four times of what he earned in an "immoral" -in the christian sense- way!
Quote
I believe in the re-distribution of wealth,but one that is done out of charity,and not mandated or coerced by any government!!
Don't mean to offend you, my friend, but I think, that the Evangelical Protestants believe in this, also.  laugh Sadly, saint Emperors and/or involved in authority thought that they should redistribute wealth in a "radical" way. A great example is Saint John III Vatatzis who had to "crush" the power of the feudalists(that appeared in a sense even in the Orthodox East!) and it's been reported that they ...hardly existed afterwards. Saint John the Merciful, Bishop of Alexandria, was also involved in such politics. Anyone who stole the poor in selling certain goods by using faulty weights(which was a main root of the exploitation at the time) for this purpose had to have their property socialized by the local authority and given to the poor. Okay, it's true, that "Wealth of nations"  had not been published yet...  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 11:11:07 PM »

It seems to me the aboved mentioned topics,go hand in hand. Would Evangelicalism be able to survive in a socialist society?

It also seems to me that Evangelicalism is anti-communial,very individualistic,the very things that are counter to Socialism.


Watch this (A BBC documentary):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8477831376519661961&ei=h8Y2S-bKE8O5lQf_4tC8Dw&q=The+Protestant+Revolution+-+Part+4# (The Protestant Revolution - Part 4: No Rest for the Wicked)

As well as this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6097384522697862795&ei=iNc2S8icGoODlgfsq-TRDw&q=descent+of+the+holy+spirit+independance&hl=en# (American Idols: Independence and Individualism)




Yes, there is a connection between the two, however, since protestantism as a whole is severely fragmented and since in North America it has a strong tendency to keep changing according to the whims of American culture. I will say that eventually some forms of protestantism will survive in a socialistic/communistic environment. Some forms will die out, but others will prosper....and only because protestantism as a whole keeps changing it's colors like a chameleon. It keeps changing it's Biblical interpretations.

A good book to check out is:
http://www.amazon.com/Christianitys-Dangerous-Idea-Revolution-Twenty-First/dp/0060822139



It looks at how various forms of protestantism changed a number of interpretations over the centuries.



I also read in a number of history books....as well as other books, that when the Prespyterian puritans came to America, they changed to a more congregational form of church government. I also read  or heard that some of them tried to live communial, but it didn't work out for them, and so, they became more capitalistic in nature. I read somewhere that the early french calvinists were capitolists, and that when the puritan congregationalists went to Hawawii, they were very much into comerce / capitalism.......etc.








ICXC NIKA


A very intresting video,It speaks very well to the fact that the "love of money" is the root of all sorts of evil!!   One of the results of Protestantism and of Capitalism throughout it's history I believe was it's neglect of the poor,over time it seems that they viewed anyone who was poor,was one that was also idle,that somehow in a Capitalistic Protestant society NO ONE should be poor,it seems to me to be a stereotype,just because someone is less fortunate,doesn't make them idle.   


I believe in the re-distribution of wealth,but one that is done out of charity,and not mandated or coerced by any government!!

Have you looked into the Distributive economic philosophy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

A number of us on this forum are into it.






ICXC NIKA
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 11:15:18 PM »

Interesting, thank you all who made a post about liberal evangelicals. Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 09:33:03 AM »

Simple are the words of truth.  Smiley John Calvin was the first to accept capitalist profit. The Fathers condemn it strongly, because it comes out of injustice -"arpagi" is called in hellenistic greek language, sth like robbery. They think -e.g. Nicodemus the Athonite- that penance and Sacrament of Confession must bring about the return of the unjust earnings. An enlightening example of the New Testament is Zacchaeus who, after penance to Christ, returned four times of what he earned in an "immoral" -in the christian sense- way!
Quote
I believe in the re-distribution of wealth,but one that is done out of charity,and not mandated or coerced by any government!!
Don't mean to offend you, my friend, but I think, that the Evangelical Protestants believe in this, also.  laugh Sadly, saint Emperors and/or involved in authority thought that they should redistribute wealth in a "radical" way. A great example is Saint John III Vatatzis who had to "crush" the power of the feudalists(that appeared in a sense even in the Orthodox East!) and it's been reported that they ...hardly existed afterwards. Saint John the Merciful, Bishop of Alexandria, was also involved in such politics. Anyone who stole the poor in selling certain goods by using faulty weights(which was a main root of the exploitation at the time) for this purpose had to have their property socialized by the local authority and given to the poor. Okay, it's true, that "Wealth of nations"  had not been published yet...  Smiley


No offense taken,up until a few years ago I never delved much into politics and economics,I was just an ignorant Protestant,I'm still learning alot,but when I started seeing the radical capitalism that existed within Evangelicalism,especially propigated by the Word of Faith movement,I realized the spiritual bankruptcy that is now prevalent within these systems.
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 12:55:03 PM »

As a cradle Orthodox who grew up in a statist country, I can appreciate the historical fact that Orthodox and Catholic Christianity has operated in a collectivist/statist milieu for most of its existence. This milieu stressed the collective/state at the expense of the individual for a very basic reason: worldly power for a few, so-called anointed men (and a few women) who were able to conceal their ambition in pious words and a few such acts. Nonetheless, the power of the Gospel was able to reach down into this unholy situation and ameliorate the condition of women and children primarily, but also of any person (Jaroslav Pelikan).

Before we Orthodox look down on our Protestant brethren, we should consider the following:

- Marx himself strongly maintained that capitalism is an indispensable precursor to socialism (Das Capital). Yes, he did buy Adam Smith's argument in the Wealth of Nations that only under capitalism the wealth of a society grows, freed as it is from human caprice and foibles.

- Economists in the Communist countries of Eastern Europe wrote a series of studies in the post-Stalin era that also proved that free market economics is the only available economically rational system.  (Leslek Kolokowski is the most famous of this reapprisal--he just passed on last summer, God rest his soul).

- Modern economists, such as Friedman and De Soto, have also shown a close relationship between freedom and capitalism.

- In todays' America, most Protestants tithe (10%), and pay taxes that in their totality approach 50% of their gross income. So they give up to 60%  of their income for a laundry list of services for themselves, but mostly for their fellow citizens. On top of that, they also volunteer individually or in groups too serve their communities in a myriad of ways, much more than people in other countries. They have shown the way in establishing schools and hospitals; public safety (fire and police); orphanages and old folks homes, etc... If they did all of this because of their religious faith, they are to be admired, not criticized.

I am pointing all of this for a purpose: the Lord does indeed move in mysterious ways. I happen to believe that He allowed the establishment of Protestantism as a wake up call for both Catholics and Orthodox, to shed our Imperial Church mentality and become the people that He wants us to be. Knee-jerk criticism of our Protestant brethren will blind us to the positive things that they have done.
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 10:01:41 PM »

As a cradle Orthodox who grew up in a statist country, I can appreciate the historical fact that Orthodox and Catholic Christianity has operated in a collectivist/statist milieu for most of its existence. This milieu stressed the collective/state at the expense of the individual for a very basic reason: worldly power for a few, so-called anointed men (and a few women) who were able to conceal their ambition in pious words and a few such acts. Nonetheless, the power of the Gospel was able to reach down into this unholy situation and ameliorate the condition of women and children primarily, but also of any person (Jaroslav Pelikan).

Before we Orthodox look down on our Protestant brethren, we should consider the following:

- Marx himself strongly maintained that capitalism is an indispensable precursor to socialism (Das Capital). Yes, he did buy Adam Smith's argument in the Wealth of Nations that only under capitalism the wealth of a society grows, freed as it is from human caprice and foibles.

- Economists in the Communist countries of Eastern Europe wrote a series of studies in the post-Stalin era that also proved that free market economics is the only available economically rational system.  (Leslek Kolokowski is the most famous of this reapprisal--he just passed on last summer, God rest his soul).

- Modern economists, such as Friedman and De Soto, have also shown a close relationship between freedom and capitalism.

- In todays' America, most Protestants tithe (10%), and pay taxes that in their totality approach 50% of their gross income. So they give up to 60%  of their income for a laundry list of services for themselves, but mostly for their fellow citizens. On top of that, they also volunteer individually or in groups too serve their communities in a myriad of ways, much more than people in other countries. They have shown the way in establishing schools and hospitals; public safety (fire and police); orphanages and old folks homes, etc... If they did all of this because of their religious faith, they are to be admired, not criticized.

I am pointing all of this for a purpose: the Lord does indeed move in mysterious ways. I happen to believe that He allowed the establishment of Protestantism as a wake up call for both Catholics and Orthodox, to shed our Imperial Church mentality and become the people that He wants us to be. Knee-jerk criticism of our Protestant brethren will blind us to the positive things that they have done.

True! I can't really argue with that........all I can do is simply agree.









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