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Author Topic: Bye Bye "Indult" mass!  (Read 9053 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ben
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2003, 01:24:43 AM »

Hmm but the pope has no superior on earth...so what do ya do if we get a heretical satanic pope.....obey him? scary thought!
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« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2003, 01:26:59 AM »

Ben

I would like to know where the Bellarmine quote came from, his corpus of works is so vast.

[And what if th see of Peter is vacant?]

Oh come on! Roll Eyes  I mean really!  Were you asleep when that priest at the IC cathedral gave you religious instruction.  The see is not vacant.  Now we've reached the level of the absurd.  When the pope dies there will be a conclave and another pope will be elected.  Check the book you read that mentions no pope for 6 years I'd like the title.  

[there are times when it is impossible to be in communion with the Pope, esp if there is no pope!]

Yes if you are Prot or EOC or Muslim or Hindu in all those cases you're generally not in communion with the Pope. Then of course there are those times when one's own pride gets in the way (that mean pope won't let me have my Tridentine mass when I want to!!  "sound of feet being stamped") and we feel we know more than the pope and the Church as a whole.  Or we might believe there is a conspiracy instituted by the evil one and his minions that has replaced the pope with a false pope.  People like this usually see black copters outside their windows.

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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2003, 01:30:19 AM »

[Hmm but the pope has no superior on earth...so what do ya do if we get a heretical satanic pope.....obey him? scary thought!]

Ben
Do you see black copters outside your window???

We only need faith the size of a mustard seed.  Haven't you read the NT?  Xt's promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail.  You seem to place alot more faith in the evil one than Xt.

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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2003, 06:00:20 AM »

Jakub,
Thanks for the link, great article.

Carpo,
I'll look for those books, thanks alot for the suggestions.
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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2003, 09:55:03 AM »

there has already been a heretic pope condemned by a general council of the church. Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2003, 03:26:41 PM »

No comment on the request for the non-Catholics that worked with Arch Bishop Bugnini on the New Order Mass ?

> Dr. George
> Canon Jasper
> Dr. Shepard
> Dr. Konneth
> Dr. Smith
> Brother Thurian

Or that Pope John XXIII condemned Bugnini a heretic ?

C'mon my fellow Latin's , read the link that was requested, getcha heads out of the sand, denial is a ..............


Can you handle the TRUTH ?

james





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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2003, 03:48:51 PM »

Jakub: can you offer a reliable record of their participation in the event?  I STRESS reliable.
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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2003, 03:58:19 PM »

No comment on the request for the non-Catholics that worked with Arch Bishop Bugnini on the New Order Mass ?

> Dr. George
> Canon Jasper
> Dr. Shepard
> Dr. Konneth
> Dr. Smith
> Brother Thurian

Or that Pope John XXIII condemned Bugnini a heretic ?

C'mon my fellow Latin's , read the link that was requested, getcha heads out of the sand, denial is a ..............


Can you handle the TRUTH ?

james


I was unaware that Mr. Coornaswamy (pardon my laziness to recheck the spelling, you know who I mean) was
a) a reputable scholar
b) a reputable theologian
c) an official of any local Roman Catholic church
d) present during any of the proceedings of Vatican II


I also noticed he didn't really list any sources.  I suppose we should take his word for it, hmm?  You seem to chastise the Catholics here for taking the word of the Pope, rather erudite scholar and theologian.  Would we not be doing the same by taking Mr. Coornaswamy's word for it?
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2003, 04:39:19 PM »

I still have never understood why the Roman Catholic Church could not have take the Tridentine Mass and simply translated it into the vernacular and left all the ceremonies intact.  Comments?  Especially comments from Roman Catholics are welcomed.  As an Eastern Orthodox, the whole idea of a "new and improved " Mass always puzzled me.

This is purely my own theory, catholics prior to 1960 were "ghettoized" (Italians, Irish, Some Eastern Europeans,Polish) in larger cities. some by their own accord and certainly because protestants found them to be "suspicious".(Ever wonder why there are "Catholic" schools and "Catholic" hospitals?)  Also note that prior to 1940 that this country was overwhelmingly protestant. All that devotion to Mary was really strange to protestants. After all, let's face it America is a protestant country.  A visit to New England or the south will prove that.

The Novos ordo is an attempt to make the catholic church more "open" "friendly" and *ahem* familiar (read protestant) So with the new mass came bad art, priest facing forward and REALLY bad song writing.  

I firmly believe that if it were not for american bias towards catholics then the mass would have been translated from latin to the "vulgar vernacular" of the people.

Feel free to disagree or agree with me.
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2003, 04:57:56 PM »

Mexicano:


I would like to get back to a previous request for a source of your post.  

Which among these indult parishes of the Diocese of Scranton was the grant to celebrate the Tridentine Mass withdrawn?

   
Wilkes-Barre, PA:  
Sunday:  8:00 AM  Holy Rosary Church
 
Scranton, PA:
Sunday:  8:00 AM & 10:15 AM  St. Michael Church
 
Elmhurst, PA:
Sunday:  10:00 AM
Holy Days: Mon-Thur ;Fri & Sat  
7:15 AM; 9:00 AM; 11:10 AM St. Gregory Academy
 
Hazleton, PA:
2 Sundays each  month:  St. Stanislaus Church  
(Time to be announced at previous Mass and in Church bulletin.)

Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation!

AmdG
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2003, 05:11:48 PM »

[Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation!]

Thanks Amadeus.


PhosZoe

[The Novos ordo is an attempt to make the catholic church more "open" "friendly" and *ahem* familiar (read protestant) So with the new mass came bad art, priest facing forward and REALLY bad song writing.  

I firmly believe that if it were not for american bias towards catholics then the mass would have been translated from latin to the "vulgar vernacular" of the people.]

Is your point that the liturgy was revised for the USA to help us fit in more with our Prot neighbors.  If so I disagree. The revised liturgy was done for the whole church not with America in view.  The people on the comission weren't being guided by a need to make the Church more Prot.  In fact the Prot observers went away from Vat2 shaking their heads as the RCC had stuck to it's guns regarding doctrine.

James

[I also noticed he didn't really list any sources.  I suppose we should take his word for it, hmm?  You seem to chastise the Catholics here for taking the word of the Pope, rather erudite scholar and theologian.  Would we not be doing the same by taking Mr. Coornaswamy's word for it?]

I have no clue who this Dr. What's his name is.  When someone invokes a source it gives it more weight if you give a little background on who the person is.  Did this doctor fellow help out at Vat2?  Probably not.  Maybe he has some RC patients??  Well if he does that's ok then it makes him a valid source. Roll Eyes  

As for the Prot divines mentioned as having helped draft the NO check out the previous post on this thread.  These fellows were observers nothing more.  But hey maybe they were using their secret Prot mind control techniques to influence the RCs who actually worked on the NO.

Carpo-Rusyn

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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2003, 08:00:23 PM »

As of this post I will not take part in this discussion thread, nor will be like the poor lemming.

Being a much older traditional RC then many 20 yr olds who participate here.

Just type Archbishop Bugnini into your search engine, unless your too lazy.


Now back to Orthodoxy.

james
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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2003, 09:31:27 PM »

James

Always (well sometimes  Wink) the voice of reason.  We could go on forever.  I'll cease on this thread too as no one has offered any evidence to support the story that led to the thread to begin with.

Now back to Roman Catholicism

Carpo-Rusyn
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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2003, 09:36:14 PM »

Check the book you read that mentions no pope for 6 years I'd like the title.  

I could be mistaken, since it's been a couple of years since I read the relevant section, but this may help.  If I recall correctly, in James Charles Noonan's The Church Visible, the author makes mention of an instance where there was no pope for something like thirty years; in order to remedy the pitiful situation, a prince or other high ranking nobleman assembled the cardinals and locked them in a room and wouldn't let them out until they elected a new pope.  This is mentioned in his treatment of the history of conclaves and their operational procedures.  If I had seen this post over the weekend, I would've looked it up while at home, but now I'm at school, and do not have access to the book.
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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2003, 09:36:52 PM »

And who is Xt?  I like Him better as Christ.  Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2003, 09:39:04 PM »

Mor Ephrem

Thanks for the title I'll check it out.  The Xt is because I am a bad typist and like abbreviations. Embarrassed

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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2003, 11:21:27 PM »



Just type Archbishop Bugnini into your search engine, unless your too lazy.



And what would that prove except that there are lots of website’s that state and restate the same information?  show a RELIABLE source.  Associated press - Library of Congress - not some sede website that has an agenda to push.  Personally, I’d like to see the primary source documentation of these claims.  I’ve learned as a history teacher, check things out for yourself because people will not hesitate to push off propaganda as historic truth even when it is fabricated and fictitious.
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« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2003, 02:28:57 PM »

Hello I'm sorry I just did not have time to revise the posts. Actualy the information comes from this site:

http://www.traditio.com/com.htm
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« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2003, 02:51:39 PM »

Br Max,

I like to search and read ,explore myself.

One needs to be capable of reading and discerning what facts are true/false or distorted.

Sifting through the dozens of "legit reports" is work.

Sharing the finds here for opinions is how we learn.

I will always go by my 1st rule, are the changes made to please and benefit God or man ?

james

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« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2003, 03:14:05 PM »

Slava Isusu Christu!

I'd like to know where the author of the article on traditio.com got a hold of these "directives".  He doesn't mention how he came by them.
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« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2003, 03:32:55 PM »

Dear Friends:

1. The website cited by Chicano is NOT a regular Roman Catholic-sponsored site.  It is operated by an "independent"  traditional Roman Catholic fringe group.

2.  The group does NOT recognize the validity of Vatican 2 and, therefore, the "Novus Ordo" masss of Pope Paul the VI.

3.  The group does NOT recognize His Holiness, Pope John Paul II.

4.  It is their view that an "SSPX Mass"  can be a substitute to their independent traditional Latin Mass but not a "Novus Ordo" Mass.

5.  Apparently, they are NOT SSPX; probably SSPV?

6. Their own "National Registry" of traditional Latin Masses does NOT match the USCCB-approved, under the auspices of Ecclesia Dei, indult Masses in the US.

Mexicano's original post is, indeed, misleading.

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« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2003, 02:42:03 PM »

Dear Amadeus:

Actualy I do not support that site at all, I'm not even part of any Roman Catholic group with or without affiliation with Rome.  I just read those news that were e-mailed by a person who lives in Chicago. I've been revising the site and although they seem too satyrical they do not say that Pope is not the Pope as you had said before, and they don't seem afiliated with any special group, but I am not sure.

Now if my post was misleading and the news are indeed false as you suggest:

Is there any bulletin from the Scranton Diocese denying this?

How can a site that is so popular inform falseness about these news?

Is there any evidence of falseness in the article that you know, or can you tell us that the indult mass will not be suspended in Scranton?
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« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2003, 03:35:09 PM »

Mexicano:

I think it would be a lot easier to confirm any news of this sort by accessing the official Catholic Bishops' website in the U.S. , or a specific diocese like the Diocese of Scranton, at:

http://www.usccb.org
http://www.dioceseofscranton.org

Unless you are interested only in rumors?

AmdG


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« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2003, 03:41:24 PM »

Why do you call him, "Chicano" and "Mexicano?"
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« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2003, 04:00:27 PM »

Slava Isusu Christu!

Quote
Now if my post was misleading and the news are indeed false as you suggest:

Is there any bulletin from the Scranton Diocese denying this?

Mexican,

Actually, the burden of proof is on the accuser to provide evidence.  Why should the diocese of Scranton address a wild accusation from a fringe schismatic group?  Where are these "directives" published by the bishop, complete with his signature?  I have a friend who goes to the FSSP church, St. Michael's, in Scranton, and he hasn't heard anything about this.  If there's any church where one would hear something like this, it's St. Michael's!

I'd frankly rather read the most extreme fringe Orthodox material on why the Catholic Church is wrong than these self-hating, self righteous "Catholics" who make wild accusations without any real proof whatsoever.  Their anger at liturgical abuse and even the Mass of Paul VI is no excuse for their poor satire (which borders on libel in many places).  Apparently, for the, charity ends at the foot of the altar.
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« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2003, 05:01:04 PM »

Dear The Caffeinator:

Mexicans call themselves Mexicanos.  

Chicano is the abbreviated form commonly used here in the Midwest and elsewhere, to refer (now) to all Hispanic immigrants. The preferred term, of course, is Latino.

Posting from South of the border, "Remie->Snoopy->Mexican" is, obviously,  a Mexicano, although he is a good Orthodox in a sea of Roman Catholic Mexicanos.

He is my favorite, and friendly, contra pelo (palo?)!

Amado
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« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2003, 05:26:08 PM »

As long as Mexican is okay with it...
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« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2003, 06:24:54 PM »

The first time I walked into a Tridentine parish for Mass I was enthralled. And it was Low Mass. Imagine what it would've been like with the chanting and incense etc. I couldn't help but thinking...how in God's name could they replace this with that Novus Ordo.

MY QUESTION EXACTLY.

The answer is that God's people are punished when they sin.  

Lord, restore our traditions to us, though we deserve it not.

LT
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« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2003, 06:30:42 PM »

The first time I walked into a Tridentine parish for Mass I was enthralled. And it was Low Mass. Imagine what it would've been like with the chanting and incense etc.

Solemn High Mass in the old rite...now there is something you need to see.  Wow!
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« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2003, 07:45:28 PM »

My feelings exactly my Yankee Latin brother,

Nuff said,

james
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« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2003, 08:41:32 PM »

Do you only use incense at "high" Mass?  Cause in our church, we use insence at all public Masses.
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« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2003, 11:57:51 PM »

Although, Amadeus is right in his definition of the terms, I would like ato add more:

The term "Chicano" refers mainly to some de-nationalized Mexicans, descendants of Mexican people who went to the USA after the Civil War in Mexico.

The "Chicano" movement appeared among Mexican-Americans in the 1960's with groups such as the "Nation of Aztl+ín" who fought for civil rights at the beggining. Most of these groups hold a ridiculously wrapped view of our national history and an exagerated glorification of the Aztecs, despising the Hispanic nature of the Mexican Nation. The corruption of the word "Mexican" is an obvious proof of this loss of identity, as a result of how tides with Mexico were lost during the XX Century.

The term "Hispanic" initialy refered to the "Spanish-American" particularly in New Mexico and Southern Colordado, but also in Northern California and was used by the American government to de-nationalize and gradualy eliminate the Mexican identity of the New Mexican people who fiercely resisted the American occupation in 1847. The policy of ethnic separation that followed the massachres of both indians and Hispanics in New Mexico, served in order to "separate" Indians from Hispanics, who were one same people: Mexicans.

Nowadays, both movements of chicanos and hispanics just fight for their recognition as part of the American society but are devoid of national conscience and historical nationalism, and the issue of the 1847 occupation is hardly mentioned by them.

(In this case the Albanians have been far better than us.)

Nowadays "Hispanic" is applied to all people in the USA from Spanish-speaking countries (not only Mexicans). The other word "Latino" is more recent, and also refers to Hispanics in general.
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« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2003, 12:19:40 AM »

Chicano is the abbreviated form commonly used here in the Midwest and elsewhere, to refer (now) to all Hispanic immigrants. The preferred term, of course, is Latino.


Amadeus,

This Hispanic, for one, is not Chicano and I have not met a non-Mexican who used that term to refer to himself.

Are you a non-Mexican Hispanic and do you refer to yourself as Chicano?

Further, "the preferred term, of course, is Latino."?  Preferred by whom?

TonyS
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« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2003, 11:40:40 PM »

I attended a Solemn High Mass (old Tridentine rite) this past August on Assumption, and my God was I amazed. Something every Christian, no matter what denomination, should experience!
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