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Author Topic: Bye Bye "Indult" mass!  (Read 8979 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 29, 2003, 12:17:59 AM »

The New Bishop of Scranton in the United States has decided to suspend all "indult" masses and ordered the confiscation of properties belonging to traditional latin rite groups such as the Society of the Annunciation of the Lord at the Mary and probably the Society of st. John.

What a pity for those people who gave their money to the indult organizations. Now I guess they won't trust these groups anymore.

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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2003, 12:28:03 AM »

did he give a reason WHY?
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2003, 12:28:55 AM »

Lord have mercy!

I do not understand the hatred towards the traditional tridentine Mass that has produced sooo many saints!! If the Catholic Church is big enough to have an eastern rite, why isn't it big enough to accomodate for those who are rightfully attached to the tridentine latin Mass?!

I do not know all the details here, but its such a shame!
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2003, 12:32:07 AM »

um . . . there is no such thing as the Tridentine mass Smiley  properly the tridentine Mass is the Liturgy of Pius V which is the Liturgy of St Gregory the Great slimed down and codified.
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2003, 12:37:51 AM »

Lol I know. But the Mass used before the tragic reforms of the 1960's is refered to as the Tridentine Mass. Some call it the Latin Mass but that can give the wrong idea. The Mass before the Novus Ordo was invented is not simply the Mass today in Latin. So I only used the term "Tridentine" for the lack of a better word. What do you prefer it called? Pre-tragic reforms Mass? Pre-Vat2 Mass? Pre-1960s Mass?
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2003, 12:40:45 AM »

The New Bishop of Scranton in the United States has decided to suspend all "indult" masses and ordered the confiscation of properties belonging to traditional latin rite groups such as the Society of the Annunciation of the Lord at the Mary and probably the Society of st. John.

What a pity for those people who gave their money to the indult organizations. Now I guess they won't trust these groups anymore.



Not that I don't believe you...but where did you get this information?
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2003, 12:41:42 AM »

Ben the better word would be Liturgy of Pius V. Smiley  But that would require people to learn something about their own faith and we wouldn't want that now would we? or how else would we get converts out of the RCC?? Grin
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2003, 12:46:04 AM »

Hmm Mass of St. Pius V...but you just admitted that the Mass of Pius V is the Mass of St. Gregory but slimmed down a little and codified. So maybe we should just call it the Mass of St. Gregory the Great: give or take a little here and there.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2003, 12:55:34 AM »

Ben: AH but at the time of Trent there were enough variances within the Liturgy of St Gregory to cause Pius V to restrict the use of variances to the Liturgy of St Gregory as used in Rome. Smiley But either way would be better than Tridentine.  Tridentine sounds like bubble gum.
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2003, 01:01:25 AM »

Well I don't know anyone who doesn't refer to the Liturgy used before Novus Ordo was invented as the Tridentine Mass. The FSSP, FSSPX, CMRI, and the SSPV all refer to as the Tridentine Mass, so bubble gum sounding or not, thats what I'm calling it.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2003, 01:11:54 AM »

Ben: I guess we can all use the terms we are most comfortable with - but- by the same token, lots of people refer to Rome as the whore of Babylon - including many saints . . . .

BTW - you meant to say the Liturgy of Paul VI not Novus Ordo, right? Grin
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2003, 01:33:16 AM »

lol no I meant Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2003, 01:43:56 AM »

no I'm quite sure you meant liturgy of Paul VI Grin
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2003, 01:53:19 AM »

No because Pope Paul VI only approved the Novus Ordo mass, it was invented by a group of Catholic bishops, priests, laymen, and 6 protestant ministers (Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian).

What liturgy does Community of the Crucified One use?
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2003, 10:01:40 AM »

Mexican

I just checked the diocesan website for Scranton as well as the website of the Society of St John.  I also talked to a priest friend who is a friend of Bishop Martino (who was my church history prof).  None of them mention the confiscation of any property.  Where'd you get this news?  

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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2003, 10:02:58 AM »

Oh Ben Ben Ben  Roll Eyes

[No because Pope Paul VI only approved the Novus Ordo mass, it was invented by a group of Catholic bishops, priests, laymen, and 6 protestant ministers (Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian).]

Where do you get this stuff?Huh??

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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2003, 03:29:55 PM »

The Novus Ordo mass or the missal of 1970, as some call it, is no where near the old mass. The new mass is truly an invention. The two Masses are so different it is horrifying!

Here is a comparison between the two:

http://www.stjosephschurch.net/compare.htm

Sadly this comparison is not 100% accurate because the old Tridentine Latin Mass is compared to the Novus Ordo missal of 1973, since 1973 there have been minor changes.

As for who invented the new Mass, I stand by my comment, Catholic clergy and laymen along with 6 protestant ministers did. If I am wrong, please correct me with sound evidence.
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2003, 05:38:58 PM »

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Catholic clergy and laymen along with 6 protestant ministers did. If I am wrong, please correct me with sound evidence.
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I've heard this from RC net apologists too.
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2003, 05:51:41 PM »

I still have never understood why the Roman Catholic Church could not have take the Tridentine Mass and simply translated it into the vernacular and left all the ceremonies intact.  Comments?  Especially comments from Roman Catholics are welcomed.  As an Eastern Orthodox, the whole idea of a "new and improved " Mass always puzzled me.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2003, 05:57:47 PM »

Tikhon

[As an Eastern Orthodox, the whole idea of a "new and improved " Mass always puzzled me.]

As an RC it's always puzzled me why EO's care so much about the RC liturgy.

Byzantino and Ben

I will hit the books and get back to you.

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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2003, 06:17:07 PM »

Tikhon29605,

I've asked your question many times to fellow Latins and others and never did get a clear response.

Good luck,
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2003, 06:31:14 PM »

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As an RC it's always puzzled me why EO's care so much about the RC liturgy.
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I care about RC liturgy because it's one of the keys of re-establishing full communion between our Churches, and because the spiritual lives of Roman Catholics would be dramatically improved if they were given a decent liturgy. When i consider that the life of the Holy Spirit is expressed primarily thru the Liturgy, it's no wonder that the RCC was so tragically decimated after the introduction of the Novus Ordo.

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I still have never understood why the Roman Catholic Church could not have take the Tridentine Mass and simply translated it into the vernacular and left all the ceremonies intact.  Comments?
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PRECISELY my sentiments. The first time I walked into a Tridentine parish for Mass I was enthralled. And it was Low Mass. Imagine what it would've been like with the chanting and incense etc. I couldn't help but thinking...how in God's name could they replace this with that Novus Ordo.
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2003, 06:52:15 PM »

Ben and Byzantino

It just occurred to me that I shouldn't be the only one doing the grunt work here.

Byz
You heard it from an RC apologist that some Prot divines worked on the RC liturgy.  Who was the apologist and what was his source.

[it's no wonder that the RCC was so tragically decimated after the introduction of the Novus Ordo.]

Tragically decimated???  I must've missed something.  We outnumber you right?  We're in every country in the world?  We outnumber even the Prots I think?  Decimated?Huh?  This I don't get.   Shocked

At least you care about the RC liturgy for a good reason not out of some need to demean others.

Ben
[As for who invented the new Mass, I stand by my comment, Catholic clergy and laymen along with 6 protestant ministers did. If I am wrong, please correct me with sound evidence. ]

You made this statement and I didn't even ask where you got this info.  Care to share the source?  

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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2003, 07:52:45 PM »

Carpo...

Here are some excerpts from a paper written by a defender of the Novus Ordo Mass, who goes by the name "Matt1618."

"There were no doubt Protestant observers of the working sessions of the Commission."

'One thing that must be noted of the input of Protestant observers at Vatican II. On July 4, 1976, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship unequivocally declared: “The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”( Documentation Catholique #58, 1976, page 649). What is clear in the Pauline Rite Mass? It reflects the Eucharistic Sacrifice as a propitiatory work offered for the living and the dead; concerning the Transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ; concerning the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints; concerning prayer for the dead- are all points on which Protestants continue to disagree with the Catholic Church but all of which are explicitly present in the Pauline Rite Mass. (Whitehead, p. 85).'

The full article is here: http://pw2.netcom.com/~matt1618/novusordo.html

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We outnumber you right?  We're in every country in the world?  We outnumber even the Prots I think?
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Which Church Father was it that said it was foolish to go by numbers? Does anybody know?

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Tragically decimated???  I must've missed something.
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Carpo if you think nothing has happened in the RCC since the changing of the Mass then you've been living in the land of Oz (and i'm not referring to Australia! Cheesy ) There are statistics available which demonstrate a correlation between the spiritual crisis in the RCC since the 70's and the Novus Ordo Mass. I myself can vouch for that by personal experience. The pandora's box opened by the Novus Ordo seems to have been noticed only by traditional-minded RCs, SSPX types, and a handful of "moderates." It's one thing having a sickness, but refusing to acknowledge a sickness is an even greater sickness.


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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2003, 08:16:43 PM »

Byz

['One thing that must be noted of the input of Protestant observers at Vatican II. On July 4, 1976, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship unequivocally declared: “The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”( Documentation Catholique #58, 1976, page 649). What is clear in the ]

Thanks for looking this up.  There's a big difference between Prot observers and Prot's working on the liturgy.

[Which Church Father was it that said it was foolish to go by numbers? Does anybody know?]

Probably one of our western fathers.  Yes it is foolish to go by number I remember Athanasius contra mundum.

[Carpo if you think nothing has happened in the RCC since the changing of the Mass then you've been living in the land of Oz (and i'm not referring to Australia!  ) There are statistics available which demonstrate a correlation between the spiritual crisis in the RCC since the 70's and the Novus Ordo Mass. I myself can vouch for that by personal experience. The pandora's box opened by the Novus Ordo seems to have been noticed only by traditional-minded RCs, SSPX types, and a handful of "moderates." It's one thing having a sickness, but refusing to acknowledge a sickness is an even greater sickness.]

I have not been living in Oz I know there are problems but staying outside the church throwing stones at the windows is no way to fix those problems (I'm not saying you are doing this).  Someone once told me that when an Irishman (my own people) leaves the RCC for another church he doesn't leave well enough alone rather he constantly chucks stones at his old parish church so they won't forget he left.  Seems we have an awful lot of Irishmen posting here.

The analogy of the sickness is a good one.  I don't think the RCC has the plague rather some form of the flu.  Yes we should acknowledge we have the flu which I think we do.  But when one has the flu you consult medical professionals not the local quack and some of the people posting on the RCC seem to be quacks (not yourself).  The only way things will get better is by RCs working at whatever level they find themselves to make things better.  All flu's pass and let's just remember this flu has only been around the past 30 or so years.  This too shall pass.  I'm sure there were people complaining after Trent about the fact that their local rite wasn't allowed to be used anymore.

I forgot to congratulate you as an Aussie about Pell, your fellow Aussie being made cardinal. Congrats

Carpo-Rusyn


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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2003, 08:17:20 PM »

Ben: you asked before what liturgy my church uses - and there is no simple answer except to say we use the 1962 missel with some of the VII reforms.
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2003, 08:29:13 PM »

I myself also wonder why the Vatican chose to introduce a new liturgy after Vatican II, when Vatican II called for no such drastic reforms. I am not saying the Novus Ordo mass isn't valid, but what I am saying is that it resembles a protestant service way too much for me to regularly attend.

My local episcopal church uses the Novus Ordo liturgy. I asked the "priest" why that was and she said "Because nothing in contradicts the episcopal faith." That is kinda scary isn't?!

You may ask how in the world can prots use it, well they can Because the New Mass was made in accordance with the Protestant definition of the Mass: "The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred synaxis or assembly of the people of God which gathers together under the presidence of the priest to celebrate the memorial of the Lord" (Par. 7 Introd. to the New Missal, defining the New Mass, 4/6/69).


Protestants have said "the new Catholic Eucharistic Prayers have abandoned the false perspective of sacrifice offered to God." (La Croix 12/10/69).

Once again....kinda scary or what?!

The Novus Ordo Mass and many of the reforms had a profound effect upon the Catholic Church, in good ways and in bad ways. To deny that it has effected the RCC in bad ways is absurd. And to deny people thrist for the old mass is also absurd.

There is a reason why SSPX exsists and why its growing so rapidly. There is also a reason why FSSP exsists.

People want the old mass back! I have heard rumors on EWTN that the pope may grant a universal indult to say the old mass to all priests.

I went to an Anglo-Catholic parish in my area and they are high church Anglicans who use the Tridentine litugy in English. The church is packed! And it is so amazing and wonderful. Why can't the RCC do that?! I don't get it!

Just came to mind: And oy the facing the people, if that isn't protestant than I don't know what is!

The changes in mass were not just slight ones but actually "deal with a fundamental renovation...a total change...a new creation" (Msgr. A. Bugnini, co-author of the New Mass).

I think the new mass just needs to be a bad memory, bring back the wonderful and glorious liturgy to the west!

And you can't say the new mass hasn't hurt the RCC:

Fruits of the New Mass are: 30% decrease in Sunday Mass in U.S. (NY Times 5/24/75), 43% decrease in France (Cardinal Marty), 50% decrease in Holland (NY Times 1/5/76).  

In less than seven years after the introduction of the New Mass, priests in the world decreased from 413,438 to 243,307 -- almost 50% (Holy See Statistics).

PALEEZZ the introduction of the new mass was a disaster.

Now as far as the prots helping make up the new Mass I heard that from 2 NO priests, a NO bishop, and some SSPX monks. I have also read some articles online that mention that. If  am wrong please correct me!
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2003, 08:36:07 PM »

Ben: you asked before what liturgy my church uses - and there is no simple answer except to say we use the 1962 missel with some of the VII reforms.

Yea most traditional Catholic groups use the missal of 1962. I know SSPX and FSSP do, and most independent chapels use the missal of 1962.

I think the only ones who don't are the sedvacantists.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2003, 08:45:54 PM »

Ben

[that it resembles a protestant service way too much for me to regularly attend.]

[My local episcopal church uses the Novus Ordo liturgy]

[I went to an Anglo-Catholic parish in my area ]

You're kind of all over the map. Just an observation.

[I am not saying the Novus Ordo mass isn't valid, but what I am saying is that it resembles a protestant service way ]

Ben come on!  The RCC liturgy both NO and TLM are sacrificial offerings most Prot services are not.  The mass in either form is the representation of Calvary  the Mystical Supper, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.  Don't know many Prot churches who feel that way.

[My local episcopal church uses the Novus Ordo liturgy]

[I went to an Anglo-Catholic parish in my area and they are high church Anglicans who use the Tridentine litugy in English]

Someone else who is a former or present ECUSA member will correct me but ECUSA parishes use the Book of Common Prayer not the NO.  There are some similarities but one big difference---The True Presence. The Anglo-Catholics use the BCP or Anglican Missal the latter being more like the TLM but again no valid orders no True Presence.

[Now as far as the prots helping make up the new Mass I heard that from 2 NO priests, a NO bishop, and some SSPX monks. I have also read some articles online that mention that. If  am wrong please correct me!]

Byzantino already posted something on this.  I'm not sure who you mean by the NO bishop and NO priests?  Do you mean RC clergy?  We don't identify our clergy as NO this or that.  It is possible.......I hope you're sitting down.......that the RC clerics even the bishop were wrong.  The infallibility of the Church doesn't extend to statements made by RC clergy off the cuff.  Besides in the RCC the buck stops with the head honcho in Rome the Pope. He's the final word on things Catholic or at least Roman Catholic.

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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2003, 08:47:57 PM »

Someone has yet to furnish verification of the story that started this thread off.  

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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2003, 09:03:11 PM »


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You're kind of all over the map. Just an observation.

As many are in these troubled times.

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Don't know many Prot churches who feel that way.

Not many, that is for sure, but their are some such as the high church anglicans and some lutheran groups that sure feel that way.

Quote
Someone else who is a former or present ECUSA member will correct me but ECUSA parishes use the Book of Common Prayer not the NO.  There are some similarities but one big difference---The True Presence. The Anglo-Catholics use the BCP or Anglican Missal the latter being more like the TLM but again no valid orders no True Presence.

I know the ECUSA does not use the NO liturgy, but this priest does, and as I have already stated when I asked her why she explained that nothing in it contradicted the episcopal faith.

As far as anglo-Catholics, I once again was not talking about all anglo-Catholics, but the one I went to, in Idaho Springs, Colorado, does use the tridentine missal of 1962 in english.

And why do you say the Anglicans don't have valid orders??

Just because the pope said so?

I'm not mocking your faith, but really why? I've just heard the answer "Cause Rome said so".

While were on this issue does any body know if there is any truth to this:

In 1922 Meletios IV, as ecumenical patriarch, recognized the validity if Anglican orders.

^^^^Doesn't sound right...just wondering if there is any truth to it.

Quote
not sure who you mean by the NO bishop and NO priests?  Do you mean RC clergy?  We don't identify our clergy as NO this or that.  It is possible.......I hope you're sitting down.......that the RC clerics even the bishop were wrong.  The infallibility of the Church doesn't extend to statements made by RC clergy off the cuff.  Besides in the RCC the buck stops with the head honcho in Rome the Pope.

Well they aren't SSPX or CMRI or FSSP or Eastern Catholic priests, so what else would you call them other than NO priests? I meant clergy in union with Rome who only celebrate the NO liturgy.

Quote
He's the final word on things Catholic or at least Roman Catholic

Hmmmm and when did his word stop being the "final word" in the eastern rite Catholic churches?
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2003, 09:10:39 PM »

Please check the following link, it can be viewed as htm also. Pages 10/11 of the Doc's reply is interesting.

www.coomaraswamy-catholic-writings.com/MotherTheresa-Complete.pdf


james
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2003, 09:24:58 PM »

BEN: ah, but unlike the "traditionalists" we do he mass in the vernacular, facing the congregation, use the "for all" as opposed to the "for Many," and we give communion in both species - among other things.

 At the same time, we maintain much of what the Church has discarded since the 1970s, if not officially, at least in practice.  We have two alters in our main sanctuary a high and a low - with the tabernacle front and center on the high alter.  We also keep many of the little things that people have forgotten the importance of - how the alter is vested, who does what during mass ( we don not use alter boys at all, but instead use sacristans to assist during the mass), we do not offer communion in the hand to laity, nor have we lost the reverence for Sacred and Holy vessels or their care.  I know that I cannot judge the whole of the RCC by the actions of some of its members, but I’ve seen too often the Chalice and Patten put irreverently on a side table after communion without even being cleansed only to have the alter boys wash them off in the sink like dishes. *sigh* Seeing such abuses, I understand why traditionalists object to the current state of the things.  Unlike the traditionalists, I do not connect such abuses to the rite of liturgy but rather to the growth of humanism within the church and in society in general.
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2003, 09:51:36 PM »

Hey Carpo,

Yep George Pell was a good choice by the His Holiness. I had the pleasure of meeting him once, about 2 yrs ago. What the local media did to him a while ago regarding those child abuse allegations was dispicable.


I also have a strong dislike for the behaviour of the kind of converts who throw rocks at their old church. It's obvious they converted for the wrong reasons. Constructive and honest criticism is one thing, but acting as a turncoat betrays a sense of insecurity and lack of God's presence in that persons life, i think.

I sincerely hope things will improve for the RCC, but it will only start after sicknesses have been diagnosed and proper remedies are proposed, and the laity need to take a very active role.  There's too many of you out there who have had enough, it's really a shame that there's such a top-down structure in the RCC because people like yourself would've been listened to by now. If i had the patience and better letter writing skills i'd write to the RC Archbishop of Melbourne myself!

God bless,

Byz
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2003, 10:10:37 PM »

btw can anyone recommend any good books on the early Roman Liturgy?
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2003, 10:29:38 PM »

Ben

[As many are in these troubled times.]

Maybe if some stayed put the times might be less troubled.

[Well they aren't SSPX or CMRI or FSSP or Eastern Catholic priests, so what else would you call them other than NO priests? I meant clergy in union with Rome who only celebrate the NO liturgy.]

The CMRI are definitely not Roman Catholic as they are sedevacantists.  The SSPX is rather questionable I think they're just in schism.  The FSSP and Eastern Catholic priests are actually bona fide Catholic.  There are many RC priests who celebrate the TLM under the indult who also celebrate the NO.  I also know of a couple FSSP priests who celebrate the NO at times.  

[Hmmmm and when did his word stop being the "final word" in the eastern rite Catholic churches? ]

Thanks for correcting me.  You're right also the last word for the Eastern rites as well.

[And why do you say the Anglicans don't have valid orders??

Just because the pope said so?

I'm not mocking your faith, but really why? I've just heard the answer "Cause Rome said so".]

Actually "cause Rome said so' is good enough for me.  The Holy Father the Curia (well some of them) and the theologians know far more about the faith than me.  Also as an RC I believe that the Holy Father exercises a unique teaching office in the RCC.

But as to Anglican orders being utterly null and void it goes back to the English Reformation and the Edwardine ordinal and apostolic succession.

Henry 8 tried to keep the CofE rather Catholic in appearence not in doctrine.  The BCP 1549 under Edward 6 was very "catholic' looking but this was quickly revised to remove all mention of sacrifice.  Then Edward 6 had the ordinal (the book with the rite of ordination for both priest and bishop) redone which removed any language that might refer to sacrifice or that the office of priest or bishop was unique in any way.  

The bishops under Henry 8 and Edward 6 were still validly consecrated and the ordinations they performed were illict in Rome's eyes.  Under Mary 1 England returned to the Faith and the bishops and priests who were consecrated prior to the reformation were ok while those done under Edward were re-consecrated or re-ordained as Rome didn't recognize any ordinations doen with the Edwardine ordinal.  When Bloody Bess (known to some as Elizabeth 1) she switched all back to Prot.  All the validly consecrated bishops were sent to what amounted to a concentration camp at Wisbech where they either died or escaped to exile on the Continent.  With all the validly consecrated bishops locked up and unwilling to play Bess' Prot games she had Matthew Parker consecrated as Abp of Canterbury using Edward's ordinal then he went on to ordain other bishops but the line of apostolic succession was broken.

With the line of apostolic succession broken and all mention of sacrifice removed there is no way an Anglican cleric can confect the Eucharist. There are many good books on the subject.

[While were on this issue does any body know if there is any truth to this:

In 1922 Meletios IV, as ecumenical patriarch, recognized the validity if Anglican orders.

^^^^Doesn't sound right...just wondering if there is any truth to it.]

It doesn't sound right but that's for one of the EO members of the forum to comment on. Though I think they would agree with Rome.

Carpo-Rusyn

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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2003, 10:30:24 PM »

Byzantino,

Here is a good article on the Mass I was brought up in.

www.stjosephschurch.net/romanrite.htm

james
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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2003, 10:33:53 PM »

Byzantino

There are many good books on early Roman liturgy.  The two that come to mind are Jungmann's "Mass of the Roman Rite" and Adrian Fortescue's book by the same title.  If you're looking for something more interesting you should check out Odo Casel's "The Mystery of Christian Worship".  He was a Benedictine of the early part of the 20th cent. draws on the Eastern fathers quite a bit.

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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2003, 11:36:37 PM »

After scratching my head and wondering what the alleged abolishing of the Indult Mass in Scranton PA, and the alleged confiscation of property(ies) has to do with Orthodox and Roman Catholic discussion/issues, I plowed through this thread, and still have not seen any documentation/sources for the original story line.  Is this story fact or fiction?

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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2003, 11:37:49 PM »

Quote
In 1922 Meletios IV, as ecumenical patriarch, recognized the validity if Anglican orders.

^^^^Doesn't sound right...just wondering if there is any truth to it.]

It doesn't sound right but that's for one of the EO members of the forum to comment on. Though I think they would agree with Rome.

The Orthodox Take on Anglican Orders
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2003, 12:18:22 AM »

Quote
Maybe if some stayed put the times might be less troubled.

Hmmm maybe if Rome would just stay strong and sound in the faith there wouldn't be as much confusion.

Quote
The CMRI are definitely not Roman Catholic as they are sedevacantists.  The SSPX is rather questionable I think they're just in schism.  The FSSP and Eastern Catholic priests are actually bona fide Catholic.  There are many RC priests who celebrate the TLM under the indult who also celebrate the NO.  I also know of a couple FSSP priests who celebrate the NO at times.  


Wow..using that infallible power of yours to delcare who is and isn't Catholic again. I am not the judge of the sedevacantists, but I do know Rome recongizes their scaraments as valid, well I don't know what 100% because the Holy See has not released an offical document on them, but I have been told that their sacraments are valid. But that doesn't prove their Catholic, only God knows, and lets let Him be judge.

I used the term "NO priest" because I was trying to explain I spoke with priests who only celebrate the NO liturgy, what would you call them?

Quote
Actually "cause Rome said so' is good enough for me.  The Holy Father the Curia (well some of them) and the theologians know far more about the faith than me.  Also as an RC I believe that the Holy Father exercises a unique teaching office in the RCC.

Hmmm seems like a good enough answer for me. Smiley

Quote
But as to Anglican orders being utterly null and void it goes back to the English Reformation and the Edwardine ordinal and apostolic succession.

Henry 8 tried to keep the CofE rather Catholic in appearence not in doctrine.  The BCP 1549 under Edward 6 was very "catholic' looking but this was quickly revised to remove all mention of sacrifice.  Then Edward 6 had the ordinal (the book with the rite of ordination for both priest and bishop) redone which removed any language that might refer to sacrifice or that the office of priest or bishop was unique in any way.  

The bishops under Henry 8 and Edward 6 were still validly consecrated and the ordinations they performed were illict in Rome's eyes.  Under Mary 1 England returned to the Faith and the bishops and priests who were consecrated prior to the reformation were ok while those done under Edward were re-consecrated or re-ordained as Rome didn't recognize any ordinations doen with the Edwardine ordinal.  When Bloody Bess (known to some as Elizabeth 1) she switched all back to Prot.  All the validly consecrated bishops were sent to what amounted to a concentration camp at Wisbech where they either died or escaped to exile on the Continent.  With all the validly consecrated bishops locked up and unwilling to play Bess' Prot games she had Matthew Parker consecrated as Abp of Canterbury using Edward's ordinal then he went on to ordain other bishops but the line of apostolic succession was broken.

With the line of apostolic succession broken and all mention of sacrifice removed there is no way an Anglican cleric can confect the Eucharist. There are many good books on the subject.

Oh! So now your the historian here?! lol..thanks for the history lesson...love the name "blody Bess" Grin


Quote
It doesn't sound right but that's for one of the EO members of the forum to comment on. Though I think they would agree with Rome.

You would think the EOC would agree with Rome on this point but I have spoken with many Orthodox priests who say Anglican orders are valid, makes you wonder.....and the whole thing with Patriarch Melitos (sp??) IV. I'll read read the link serge posted.....

hmm I am still wondering if this whole "bye bye indult" thing is actually true.....I wonder where Mexican got it. Huh
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2003, 12:30:04 AM »

Please check the following link, it can be viewed as htm also. Pages 10/11 of the Doc's reply is interesting.

www.coomaraswamy-catholic-writings.com/MotherTheresa-Complete.pdf


james

Carpo you must read these letters!
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2003, 12:59:08 AM »

I've still seen no evidence of the charges made at the start of this thread.  I did check both websites for the diocese of Scranton and the Society of St John (the people you figure would know) and nothing on them about the rather dramatic sounding supression and confiscation.

I guess it's just another exciting episode of the

        Believe the Worst about the RCC Show Sad

CR
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2003, 01:06:54 AM »

Ben


[Wow..using that infallible power of yours to delcare who is and isn't Catholic again. I am not the judge of the sedevacantists, but I do know Rome recongizes their scaraments as valid, well I don't know what 100% because the Holy See has not released an offical document on them, but I have been told that their sacraments are valid. But that doesn't prove their Catholic, only God knows, and lets let Him be judge.]

Actually using the Code of Canon Law I'm giving my infallible powers a rest.  A RC is someone who is in communion with the see of Rome and it's occupant JP2.
You presented the CMRI as RC but since they don't recognize the existence of JP2 as the Roman Pontiff they don't make the cut as far as being RC.  As far as the validity of their sacraments I have no opinion.

[I used the term "NO priest" because I was trying to explain I spoke with priests who only celebrate the NO liturgy, what would you call them?]

Well if they're in communion with Rome I'd probably call them RC priests.

Check out Serge's link he is in the know.

CR


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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2003, 01:15:06 AM »

And what if th see of Peter is vacant? There have been times in history when there has been no pope. I remember reading after one pope died it took like 6 years to elect another. I am not saying that we've had no pope for the last 50 years or however long, but what I am saying is that there are times when it is impossible to be in communion with the Pope, esp if there is no pope!

I have a quote for you from a geat Doctor of the Church that not only disproves or refutes sedevacantism, but also explains that when the Pope has erred we have the right to disobey him and protect the faith.

"Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff that aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed. However, it is not licit to judge, punish, or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." - St. Robert Bellarmine

The pope can err against the faith, and when he does, as St. Robert says we may "resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed" but we must never declare he is not pope because "these are acts proper to a superior".
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2003, 01:24:43 AM »

Hmm but the pope has no superior on earth...so what do ya do if we get a heretical satanic pope.....obey him? scary thought!
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« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2003, 01:26:59 AM »

Ben

I would like to know where the Bellarmine quote came from, his corpus of works is so vast.

[And what if th see of Peter is vacant?]

Oh come on! Roll Eyes  I mean really!  Were you asleep when that priest at the IC cathedral gave you religious instruction.  The see is not vacant.  Now we've reached the level of the absurd.  When the pope dies there will be a conclave and another pope will be elected.  Check the book you read that mentions no pope for 6 years I'd like the title.  

[there are times when it is impossible to be in communion with the Pope, esp if there is no pope!]

Yes if you are Prot or EOC or Muslim or Hindu in all those cases you're generally not in communion with the Pope. Then of course there are those times when one's own pride gets in the way (that mean pope won't let me have my Tridentine mass when I want to!!  "sound of feet being stamped") and we feel we know more than the pope and the Church as a whole.  Or we might believe there is a conspiracy instituted by the evil one and his minions that has replaced the pope with a false pope.  People like this usually see black copters outside their windows.

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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2003, 01:30:19 AM »

[Hmm but the pope has no superior on earth...so what do ya do if we get a heretical satanic pope.....obey him? scary thought!]

Ben
Do you see black copters outside your window???

We only need faith the size of a mustard seed.  Haven't you read the NT?  Xt's promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail.  You seem to place alot more faith in the evil one than Xt.

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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2003, 06:00:20 AM »

Jakub,
Thanks for the link, great article.

Carpo,
I'll look for those books, thanks alot for the suggestions.
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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2003, 09:55:03 AM »

there has already been a heretic pope condemned by a general council of the church. Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2003, 03:26:41 PM »

No comment on the request for the non-Catholics that worked with Arch Bishop Bugnini on the New Order Mass ?

> Dr. George
> Canon Jasper
> Dr. Shepard
> Dr. Konneth
> Dr. Smith
> Brother Thurian

Or that Pope John XXIII condemned Bugnini a heretic ?

C'mon my fellow Latin's , read the link that was requested, getcha heads out of the sand, denial is a ..............


Can you handle the TRUTH ?

james





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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2003, 03:48:51 PM »

Jakub: can you offer a reliable record of their participation in the event?  I STRESS reliable.
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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2003, 03:58:19 PM »

No comment on the request for the non-Catholics that worked with Arch Bishop Bugnini on the New Order Mass ?

> Dr. George
> Canon Jasper
> Dr. Shepard
> Dr. Konneth
> Dr. Smith
> Brother Thurian

Or that Pope John XXIII condemned Bugnini a heretic ?

C'mon my fellow Latin's , read the link that was requested, getcha heads out of the sand, denial is a ..............


Can you handle the TRUTH ?

james


I was unaware that Mr. Coornaswamy (pardon my laziness to recheck the spelling, you know who I mean) was
a) a reputable scholar
b) a reputable theologian
c) an official of any local Roman Catholic church
d) present during any of the proceedings of Vatican II


I also noticed he didn't really list any sources.  I suppose we should take his word for it, hmm?  You seem to chastise the Catholics here for taking the word of the Pope, rather erudite scholar and theologian.  Would we not be doing the same by taking Mr. Coornaswamy's word for it?
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2003, 04:39:19 PM »

I still have never understood why the Roman Catholic Church could not have take the Tridentine Mass and simply translated it into the vernacular and left all the ceremonies intact.  Comments?  Especially comments from Roman Catholics are welcomed.  As an Eastern Orthodox, the whole idea of a "new and improved " Mass always puzzled me.

This is purely my own theory, catholics prior to 1960 were "ghettoized" (Italians, Irish, Some Eastern Europeans,Polish) in larger cities. some by their own accord and certainly because protestants found them to be "suspicious".(Ever wonder why there are "Catholic" schools and "Catholic" hospitals?)  Also note that prior to 1940 that this country was overwhelmingly protestant. All that devotion to Mary was really strange to protestants. After all, let's face it America is a protestant country.  A visit to New England or the south will prove that.

The Novos ordo is an attempt to make the catholic church more "open" "friendly" and *ahem* familiar (read protestant) So with the new mass came bad art, priest facing forward and REALLY bad song writing.  

I firmly believe that if it were not for american bias towards catholics then the mass would have been translated from latin to the "vulgar vernacular" of the people.

Feel free to disagree or agree with me.
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2003, 04:57:56 PM »

Mexicano:


I would like to get back to a previous request for a source of your post.  

Which among these indult parishes of the Diocese of Scranton was the grant to celebrate the Tridentine Mass withdrawn?

   
Wilkes-Barre, PA:  
Sunday:  8:00 AM  Holy Rosary Church
 
Scranton, PA:
Sunday:  8:00 AM & 10:15 AM  St. Michael Church
 
Elmhurst, PA:
Sunday:  10:00 AM
Holy Days: Mon-Thur ;Fri & Sat  
7:15 AM; 9:00 AM; 11:10 AM St. Gregory Academy
 
Hazleton, PA:
2 Sundays each  month:  St. Stanislaus Church  
(Time to be announced at previous Mass and in Church bulletin.)

Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation!

AmdG
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2003, 05:11:48 PM »

[Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation!]

Thanks Amadeus.


PhosZoe

[The Novos ordo is an attempt to make the catholic church more "open" "friendly" and *ahem* familiar (read protestant) So with the new mass came bad art, priest facing forward and REALLY bad song writing.  

I firmly believe that if it were not for american bias towards catholics then the mass would have been translated from latin to the "vulgar vernacular" of the people.]

Is your point that the liturgy was revised for the USA to help us fit in more with our Prot neighbors.  If so I disagree. The revised liturgy was done for the whole church not with America in view.  The people on the comission weren't being guided by a need to make the Church more Prot.  In fact the Prot observers went away from Vat2 shaking their heads as the RCC had stuck to it's guns regarding doctrine.

James

[I also noticed he didn't really list any sources.  I suppose we should take his word for it, hmm?  You seem to chastise the Catholics here for taking the word of the Pope, rather erudite scholar and theologian.  Would we not be doing the same by taking Mr. Coornaswamy's word for it?]

I have no clue who this Dr. What's his name is.  When someone invokes a source it gives it more weight if you give a little background on who the person is.  Did this doctor fellow help out at Vat2?  Probably not.  Maybe he has some RC patients??  Well if he does that's ok then it makes him a valid source. Roll Eyes  

As for the Prot divines mentioned as having helped draft the NO check out the previous post on this thread.  These fellows were observers nothing more.  But hey maybe they were using their secret Prot mind control techniques to influence the RCs who actually worked on the NO.

Carpo-Rusyn

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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2003, 08:00:23 PM »

As of this post I will not take part in this discussion thread, nor will be like the poor lemming.

Being a much older traditional RC then many 20 yr olds who participate here.

Just type Archbishop Bugnini into your search engine, unless your too lazy.


Now back to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2003, 09:31:27 PM »

James

Always (well sometimes  Wink) the voice of reason.  We could go on forever.  I'll cease on this thread too as no one has offered any evidence to support the story that led to the thread to begin with.

Now back to Roman Catholicism

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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2003, 09:36:14 PM »

Check the book you read that mentions no pope for 6 years I'd like the title.  

I could be mistaken, since it's been a couple of years since I read the relevant section, but this may help.  If I recall correctly, in James Charles Noonan's The Church Visible, the author makes mention of an instance where there was no pope for something like thirty years; in order to remedy the pitiful situation, a prince or other high ranking nobleman assembled the cardinals and locked them in a room and wouldn't let them out until they elected a new pope.  This is mentioned in his treatment of the history of conclaves and their operational procedures.  If I had seen this post over the weekend, I would've looked it up while at home, but now I'm at school, and do not have access to the book.
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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2003, 09:36:52 PM »

And who is Xt?  I like Him better as Christ.  Cheesy
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2003, 09:39:04 PM »

Mor Ephrem

Thanks for the title I'll check it out.  The Xt is because I am a bad typist and like abbreviations. Embarrassed

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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2003, 11:21:27 PM »



Just type Archbishop Bugnini into your search engine, unless your too lazy.



And what would that prove except that there are lots of website’s that state and restate the same information?  show a RELIABLE source.  Associated press - Library of Congress - not some sede website that has an agenda to push.  Personally, I’d like to see the primary source documentation of these claims.  I’ve learned as a history teacher, check things out for yourself because people will not hesitate to push off propaganda as historic truth even when it is fabricated and fictitious.
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« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2003, 02:28:57 PM »

Hello I'm sorry I just did not have time to revise the posts. Actualy the information comes from this site:

http://www.traditio.com/com.htm
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« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2003, 02:51:39 PM »

Br Max,

I like to search and read ,explore myself.

One needs to be capable of reading and discerning what facts are true/false or distorted.

Sifting through the dozens of "legit reports" is work.

Sharing the finds here for opinions is how we learn.

I will always go by my 1st rule, are the changes made to please and benefit God or man ?

james

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« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2003, 03:14:05 PM »

Slava Isusu Christu!

I'd like to know where the author of the article on traditio.com got a hold of these "directives".  He doesn't mention how he came by them.
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« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2003, 03:32:55 PM »

Dear Friends:

1. The website cited by Chicano is NOT a regular Roman Catholic-sponsored site.  It is operated by an "independent"  traditional Roman Catholic fringe group.

2.  The group does NOT recognize the validity of Vatican 2 and, therefore, the "Novus Ordo" masss of Pope Paul the VI.

3.  The group does NOT recognize His Holiness, Pope John Paul II.

4.  It is their view that an "SSPX Mass"  can be a substitute to their independent traditional Latin Mass but not a "Novus Ordo" Mass.

5.  Apparently, they are NOT SSPX; probably SSPV?

6. Their own "National Registry" of traditional Latin Masses does NOT match the USCCB-approved, under the auspices of Ecclesia Dei, indult Masses in the US.

Mexicano's original post is, indeed, misleading.

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« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2003, 02:42:03 PM »

Dear Amadeus:

Actualy I do not support that site at all, I'm not even part of any Roman Catholic group with or without affiliation with Rome.  I just read those news that were e-mailed by a person who lives in Chicago. I've been revising the site and although they seem too satyrical they do not say that Pope is not the Pope as you had said before, and they don't seem afiliated with any special group, but I am not sure.

Now if my post was misleading and the news are indeed false as you suggest:

Is there any bulletin from the Scranton Diocese denying this?

How can a site that is so popular inform falseness about these news?

Is there any evidence of falseness in the article that you know, or can you tell us that the indult mass will not be suspended in Scranton?
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« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2003, 03:35:09 PM »

Mexicano:

I think it would be a lot easier to confirm any news of this sort by accessing the official Catholic Bishops' website in the U.S. , or a specific diocese like the Diocese of Scranton, at:

http://www.usccb.org
http://www.dioceseofscranton.org

Unless you are interested only in rumors?

AmdG


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« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2003, 03:41:24 PM »

Why do you call him, "Chicano" and "Mexicano?"
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« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2003, 04:00:27 PM »

Slava Isusu Christu!

Quote
Now if my post was misleading and the news are indeed false as you suggest:

Is there any bulletin from the Scranton Diocese denying this?

Mexican,

Actually, the burden of proof is on the accuser to provide evidence.  Why should the diocese of Scranton address a wild accusation from a fringe schismatic group?  Where are these "directives" published by the bishop, complete with his signature?  I have a friend who goes to the FSSP church, St. Michael's, in Scranton, and he hasn't heard anything about this.  If there's any church where one would hear something like this, it's St. Michael's!

I'd frankly rather read the most extreme fringe Orthodox material on why the Catholic Church is wrong than these self-hating, self righteous "Catholics" who make wild accusations without any real proof whatsoever.  Their anger at liturgical abuse and even the Mass of Paul VI is no excuse for their poor satire (which borders on libel in many places).  Apparently, for the, charity ends at the foot of the altar.
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« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2003, 05:01:04 PM »

Dear The Caffeinator:

Mexicans call themselves Mexicanos.  

Chicano is the abbreviated form commonly used here in the Midwest and elsewhere, to refer (now) to all Hispanic immigrants. The preferred term, of course, is Latino.

Posting from South of the border, "Remie->Snoopy->Mexican" is, obviously,  a Mexicano, although he is a good Orthodox in a sea of Roman Catholic Mexicanos.

He is my favorite, and friendly, contra pelo (palo?)!

Amado
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« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2003, 05:26:08 PM »

As long as Mexican is okay with it...
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« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2003, 06:24:54 PM »

The first time I walked into a Tridentine parish for Mass I was enthralled. And it was Low Mass. Imagine what it would've been like with the chanting and incense etc. I couldn't help but thinking...how in God's name could they replace this with that Novus Ordo.

MY QUESTION EXACTLY.

The answer is that God's people are punished when they sin.  

Lord, restore our traditions to us, though we deserve it not.

LT
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2003, 06:30:42 PM »

The first time I walked into a Tridentine parish for Mass I was enthralled. And it was Low Mass. Imagine what it would've been like with the chanting and incense etc.

Solemn High Mass in the old rite...now there is something you need to see.  Wow!
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« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2003, 07:45:28 PM »

My feelings exactly my Yankee Latin brother,

Nuff said,

james
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« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2003, 08:41:32 PM »

Do you only use incense at "high" Mass?  Cause in our church, we use insence at all public Masses.
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« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2003, 11:57:51 PM »

Although, Amadeus is right in his definition of the terms, I would like ato add more:

The term "Chicano" refers mainly to some de-nationalized Mexicans, descendants of Mexican people who went to the USA after the Civil War in Mexico.

The "Chicano" movement appeared among Mexican-Americans in the 1960's with groups such as the "Nation of Aztl+ín" who fought for civil rights at the beggining. Most of these groups hold a ridiculously wrapped view of our national history and an exagerated glorification of the Aztecs, despising the Hispanic nature of the Mexican Nation. The corruption of the word "Mexican" is an obvious proof of this loss of identity, as a result of how tides with Mexico were lost during the XX Century.

The term "Hispanic" initialy refered to the "Spanish-American" particularly in New Mexico and Southern Colordado, but also in Northern California and was used by the American government to de-nationalize and gradualy eliminate the Mexican identity of the New Mexican people who fiercely resisted the American occupation in 1847. The policy of ethnic separation that followed the massachres of both indians and Hispanics in New Mexico, served in order to "separate" Indians from Hispanics, who were one same people: Mexicans.

Nowadays, both movements of chicanos and hispanics just fight for their recognition as part of the American society but are devoid of national conscience and historical nationalism, and the issue of the 1847 occupation is hardly mentioned by them.

(In this case the Albanians have been far better than us.)

Nowadays "Hispanic" is applied to all people in the USA from Spanish-speaking countries (not only Mexicans). The other word "Latino" is more recent, and also refers to Hispanics in general.
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« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2003, 12:19:40 AM »

Chicano is the abbreviated form commonly used here in the Midwest and elsewhere, to refer (now) to all Hispanic immigrants. The preferred term, of course, is Latino.


Amadeus,

This Hispanic, for one, is not Chicano and I have not met a non-Mexican who used that term to refer to himself.

Are you a non-Mexican Hispanic and do you refer to yourself as Chicano?

Further, "the preferred term, of course, is Latino."?  Preferred by whom?

TonyS
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« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2003, 11:40:40 PM »

I attended a Solemn High Mass (old Tridentine rite) this past August on Assumption, and my God was I amazed. Something every Christian, no matter what denomination, should experience!
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