Author Topic: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?  (Read 2113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline trifecta

  • Fairly newly illumined
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« on: September 01, 2009, 11:49:38 PM »
Forgive me for asking such an obvious question.  (e.g, Who
is buried in Grant's Tomb). 

I thought it was written by St. John Chrysostom, but wikipedia
(not that that's a reliable source) said it was not written by him
but only named after him.


I also read a Western Rite Liturgy is based on the book of
common prayer, but they were going to name the liturgy
"The DL of St. Tikhon."  Of course, Tikhon didn't write it,
so that got me to wondering, is the DL of St. John Chrysostom
really written by him?


Any insight to this would be appreciated.
born Catholic, became a Protestant, now and hereafter an Orthodox Christian

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,123
  • Save Oh Lord your People! And Bless us all!
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 12:44:43 AM »
long story short, all of the liturgies are attributed to a major saint of their era.  were they written by that saint? there is no clear evidence to the positive OR the "necessarily" negative.  If you really want to get into it I could try to pull up some stuff for you...

generally speaking though it was a normal thing to attribute liturgies to well known public figures such as Basil or Chrysostom.  they even might have written it, or at least been a part of it.  to think that SJC had no impact on the liturgy of his time is foolish.  however, to think that a liturgy done in one church in one area spread to the whole world is equally not as plausible. 

short answer?  probably, maybe, not really. 

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 12:48:54 AM »
No one person wrote it.  The Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a compilation from who knows how many different (originally chiefly Antiochene) sources.  (There were literally hundreds of different liturgies at use in the Church at one time.)   Prominent scholars believe that St. John brought the ancient Anaphora of the Apostles from his native Antioch when he became archbishop of Constantinople and edited it for use in one Constantinopolitan rite.  Because of this, and because of the voluminous material he wrote about liturgical practice, this liturgy came to bear his name.  It continued to go through augmentations and modifications until about the 13th or 14th century, when it assumed (more or less) its present form.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 12:51:16 AM »

No one person wrote it.  The Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a compilation from who knows how many different (originally chiefly Antiochene) sources.  (There were literally hundreds of different liturgies at use in the Church at one time.)   Prominent scholars believe that St. John brought the ancient Anaphora of the Apostles from his native Antioch when he became archbishop of Constantinople and edited it for use in one Constantinopolitan rite.  Because of this, and because of the voluminous material he wrote about liturgical practice, this liturgy came to bear his name.  It continued to go through augmentations and modifications until about the 13th or 14th century, when it assumed (more or less) its present form.

Hmmm? I thought the DL of John Chrysostom was simply a refining of the DL of Basil?

Offline serb1389

  • Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,123
  • Save Oh Lord your People! And Bless us all!
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 12:54:00 AM »
No one person wrote it.  The Constantinopolitan liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a compilation from who knows how many different (originally chiefly Antiochene) sources.  (There were literally hundreds of different liturgies at use in the Church at one time.)   Prominent scholars believe that St. John brought the ancient Anaphora of the Apostles from his native Antioch when he became archbishop of Constantinople and edited it for use in one Constantinopolitan rite.  Because of this, and because of the voluminous material he wrote about liturgical practice, this liturgy came to bear his name.  It continued to go through augmentations and modifications until about the 13th or 14th century, when it assumed (more or less) its present form.

well done sir!  you are a much classier guy than I am!  very nice and succinct post! 

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 01:19:36 AM »
Hmmm? I thought the DL of John Chrysostom was simply a refining of the DL of Basil?

Well, this came quite a bit later on in the historical development of the liturgy, compared with the formative period I discussed earlier.  IIRC, it is believed that, by the year 1000 at the latest,  a new version of the liturgy of St. John had appeared that was very much like the Byzantine redaction of the liturgy of St. Basil in most respects with the exception of the text of the anaphora, although this too was made stylistically compatible with that of St. Basil.  It was around this time that the liturgy of St. John replaced that of St. Basil as the principle "standard" liturgy of the Church.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 01:23:02 AM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 01:20:52 AM »
well done sir!....very nice and succinct post! 

Thanks!
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,521
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 01:23:46 AM »
Hmmm? I thought the DL of John Chrysostom was simply a refining of the DL of Basil?

Well, this came quite a bit later on in the historical development of the liturgy, compared with the formative period I discussed earlier.  IIRC, it is believed that, by the year 1000 at the latest,  a new version of the liturgy of St. John had appeared that was very much like the Byzantine redaction of the liturgy of St. Basil in most respects with the exception of the text of the anaphora, although this too was made stylistically compatible with that of St. Basil.  It was around this time that the liturgy of St. John replaced that of St. Basil as the principle "standard" liturgy of the Church.

So, um, what is this "Anaphora of the Apostles" you were talking about? I thought the Liturgy of James was the standard of Antioch?

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 02:09:08 AM »
So, um, what is this "Anaphora of the Apostles" you were talking about? I thought the Liturgy of James was the standard of Antioch?

Please remember that there  were literally hundreds, if not thousands of liturgies in use in the Church at one time.  Cross-pollination was fairly common and liturgies influenced each other.  There is a wide consensus  among scholars, among them Taft, Bradshaw and Fenwick, that the early anaphora of St. John is a redaction of the Anaphora of the Apostles.   I am really, really simplifying things here for the sake of clarity and succinct expression.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 02:18:44 AM »
Another thing that I would like to point out is that liturgies were originally not "written" at all, but were part of a great oral tradition, passed on from generation to generation.  Christians saw no reason to write them down until later on, when various factors (heresy being one) encouraged them to commit  them to parchment and paper.  So this complicates research involving liturgical origins even more.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,400
  • Out for a stroll...
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Who wrote the DL of St. John Chrysostom?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 03:02:25 PM »
So, um, what is this "Anaphora of the Apostles" you were talking about? I thought the Liturgy of James was the standard of Antioch?

Here is an excellent post by FatherHLL from another thread that may shed more light on the matter:

As St. Basil the Great points out, the Liturgy was a matter of constant use and thus oral tradition moreso than written tradition.  However, it is also tradition that St. James, St. Clement, St. Mark, and others wrote down a template.   St. Hippolytus (ca 200AD) gives a basic "template" (cf. Apostolic tradition 8 ) but then also adds the following:  "The bishop shall offer Eucharist according to all that was said above.   It is not at all necessary that he prays with the exact words given above, as though by an effort of memory giving thanks to God. Each shall pray according to his ability.  If someone is able to pray a lengthy and solemn prayer, that is well. If someone else, in praying, offers a short prayer, this is not to be prevented. The prayer, however, must be orthodox" (Ap.Trad. 9.3).  Likewise, the Liturgy now known as "of St. John Chrysostom" was known as the "Liturgy of the Holy Apostles" prior to the 8th century.  In fact, in our earliest extant codex, Barbarini, there are two columns, one with the Liturgy "of St. Basil" and the other simply with "the Liturgy" which, because of a lack of a title, was considered earlier in composition (as Leontius of Byzantium relates, this liturgy in his day, 6th century, which he called of the Apostles but which is now called of John Chrysostom, was reckoned as the earlier of the two) with a few prayers in it that are given the title a prayer "of St. John Chrysostom" such as amvon prayer.  Some scholars speculate that this is where a name shift took place in that, it was 'the Liturgy of the Apostles with (certain prayers) of St. John Chrysostom' but then simply dropped in the middle and became "of St. John Chrysostom" at the heading of the entire Liturgy.   Several scholars have shown that it is the derivative of the Syriac "Liturgy of the 12 of Apostles" of which we have a copy from the 3rd century as well as the "Apostolic Liturgy" in the Apostolic Constitutions.  Again, there were many varients but the continuity has been demonstrated, and the continuity of the early basic elements of the Anaphora, is demonstrated in Hippolytus.   
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)