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Marc1152
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« Reply #180 on: December 06, 2010, 05:39:27 PM »

Marc,

Like??

 Bar Mitzvoh? Like fasting on Yom Kipper ? Like being buried separately from non Jews?

Or do you mean eating Potatoes Pancakes around this time of year?
Father Bernstein in his book surprised by Christ gives examples of practices by Jewish Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land, like circumcision, keeping the sabbath, food rules. They also sometimes went to nonChristian synagogues. For example, Acts mentioned that the early Christians went to nonChristian synagogues to preach about Jesus the Messiah. In fact, they were willing to undergo persecution to preach in the synagogues and pray in the Temple.

To give another example, it was a tradition to go to Jerusalem for Passover. It was a tradition that came down among Palestinian Orthodox Christians, who are descendents of Jews, so that they yearn to visit Jerusalem today during Passover or "Paskha", although the permit restriction system only allowed 10-20% of Palestinian Christians to visit Jerusalem during last year's Passover.

Father Bernstein's explanation in Surprised by Christ is that as the Roman empire and surrounding lands like Armenia and the Middle East became Christian, the number of non-Jewish Christians greatly outnumbered the Jewish Christians, who lived in Galilee and Jordan among other places.

So almost 2000 centuries of intermarriage and assimilation explain why the Palestinian Christians, who are descended mainly from Jews (those of the circumcision"), but nevertheless to a lesser extent with others like Greeks, Aramaics, Samaritans, don't keep separate customs like circumcision today.

So even if their was some kind of absolute ban on all unique Jewish practices, which there wasn't, and then a hypothetical counter-church Jewish Christian sect still would have intermarried and assimilated itself.

Father Bernstein's explanation is that most lists of heretical sects from the 1st-6th centuries don't mention Jewish Christian sects, not because they didn't exist, but because the compilers, like Filaster who made a list of 156 heretical groups, didn't consider them to be a heretical group outside the church.

Meanwhile, St Jerome spoke positively about Jewish Christians who kept the unique customs.

Shalom.

Does Father Bernstsein attend a Synagogue? Does he keep kosher? Does he keep the Sat. Sabbath? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.

Can you answer my question? I'll shorten it for you. Would you have Jews who have converted observe Yom Yipper?  Would you have us go to synagogue and fast from all food as an atonement for sins committed that year?
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« Reply #181 on: December 06, 2010, 06:53:48 PM »


Does Father Bernstsein attend a Synagogue? Does he keep kosher? Does he keep the Sat. Sabbath? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.
He does attend a synagogue, because the early Jewish churches were called synagogues, or "ekklesia." In the Epistle of James, Jewish churches are referred to as synagogues. Plus, father Bernstein connects Orthodox worship with synagogue worship, as one inspiration to become Orthodox.

I don't know if he keeps kosher, but if he did, it should be fine, since kosher is avoidance of certain foods, and Orthodoxy doesn't demand that you must eat certain foods, except wine and bread.

I don't know if he keeps the sabbath, but it came out in my OCF group that Orthodoxy favors keeping the sabbath, like did Jesus, who was accused of not keeping it. I think that elswhere you have mentioned with approval the idea that Jesus and/or early Christians kept certain unique Jewish customs.


Can you answer my question? I'll shorten it for you. Would you have Jews who have converted observe Yom Yipper?  Would you have us go to synagogue and fast from all food as an atonement for sins committed that year?
You are asking what I would advocate, and I would advocate the unique Jewish customs Father Bernstein wrote that early Jewish Christians observed as voluntary- entirely if you want to.

Ialmisry on the Nicodemus or Gamaliel thread posted a link to a book about the early Judeo-Christians, in which it proposes that early Jewish Christians probably observed the Day of Atonement. If after serious study and consideration it turns out that early Jewish Christians observed the day of Atonement, then I would advocate simply allowing Jewish Christians to observe it voluntarily if they desire to.

But Fr Bernstein also wrote that St Paul was against keeping other unique customs too. So consideration would be necessary.
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« Reply #182 on: December 06, 2010, 07:48:01 PM »


Does Father Bernstsein attend a Synagogue? Does he keep kosher? Does he keep the Sat. Sabbath? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.
He does attend a synagogue, because the early Jewish churches were called synagogues, or "ekklesia." In the Epistle of James, Jewish churches are referred to as synagogues. Plus, father Bernstein connects Orthodox worship with synagogue worship, as one inspiration to become Orthodox.

I don't know if he keeps kosher, but if he did, it should be fine, since kosher is avoidance of certain foods, and Orthodoxy doesn't demand that you must eat certain foods, except wine and bread.

I don't know if he keeps the sabbath, but it came out in my OCF group that Orthodoxy favors keeping the sabbath, like did Jesus, who was accused of not keeping it. I think that elswhere you have mentioned with approval the idea that Jesus and/or early Christians kept certain unique Jewish customs.


Can you answer my question? I'll shorten it for you. Would you have Jews who have converted observe Yom Yipper?  Would you have us go to synagogue and fast from all food as an atonement for sins committed that year?
You are asking what I would advocate, and I would advocate the unique Jewish customs Father Bernstein wrote that early Jewish Christians observed as voluntary- entirely if you want to.

Ialmisry on the Nicodemus or Gamaliel thread posted a link to a book about the early Judeo-Christians, in which it proposes that early Jewish Christians probably observed the Day of Atonement. If after serious study and consideration it turns out that early Jewish Christians observed the day of Atonement, then I would advocate simply allowing Jewish Christians to observe it voluntarily if they desire to.

But Fr Bernstein also wrote that St Paul was against keeping other unique customs too. So consideration would be necessary.

That's what I thought.. Are we done?
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« Reply #183 on: December 16, 2010, 03:04:15 PM »

Nazarene, I was still waiting for this reply, if you could:

Nazarene, I was looking for a response to this in particular:

Because Messianic Judaism in general seems to be an outgrowth of the (Ana)Baptist churches, I am curious if these elements would be a part of the liturgy and devotions you are constructing:

Veneration of and communion with the saints, especially the Virgin Mariam.

Prayer for the recently reposed.

Real Presence of "Yeshua Messiah" in the Eucharist.

1. Yes we believe He's really present the way you believe it.

2. The righteous dead are mentioned in our prayers but we do not pray to them or for them. We pray to God and ask Him to remember them on the day of the Resurrection and hope that He will grant them eternal life on that day and reunite us with them. This ties in with our understanding of the afterlife which I plan to address sometime here. We also believe that the Angels and Martyrs pray with us and for us but we do not pray to them or address them, we don't feel it's necessary because we know that they are always doing just that.

3. The Mother of our Master is always mentioned in our prayers. We regard her as highly as we regard our father Abraham, we view Abraham as our father of faith and likewise view Mary as our mother of faith - the female equivalent. She, just like him is someone for us to emulate - we ask God to make us as humble and obedient as she is. And like we bless Abraham, we bless her as well.
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« Reply #184 on: December 16, 2010, 03:22:59 PM »

I haven't really read this thread however speaking as a Jew, I can say this. Messianic 'Jews' are NOT Jews nor are the considered Jews by Jews, regardless of whether they be Reform, Orthodox, Haredi, etc. They are Christians who like to wear kippah.
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« Reply #185 on: December 16, 2010, 03:31:05 PM »

I believe the Torah was given to Israel, and I'm not of Jewish ancestry myself (so it doesn't really make any difference to me), but I've often wondered what Jesus meant when He said:

Think not that I've come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, I have not come to destroy but to fill full. For truly I say to you that not a jot or stroke will pass from the Law till everything comes to pass.

I've address this before:

I thought Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism?

Depends what you mean by "fulfillment". Christianity/Messianity/Nazarenism or whatever you call it (the Assyrian Church doesn't call it "Christianity" either btw) is the natural continuation of the original Faith of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets who all had Faith in the pre-Incarnate Messiah (the Arm & Word of YHWH). When something "moves into a new phase" so to speak, it means that changes will occur, but doesn't neccessarily mean that everything changes or that everything that was previously established is completely abolished:

{Hebrews 7:11-12} Therefore, if perfection is by way of the priesthood of Levi, by which the law was established for the people, why was it necessary that another priest should be raised up in the likeness of Melchisedec? Then he [would have] said, "He will be in the likeness of Aaron." But in the same way as a change took place in the priesthood, so a change also took place in the law.

Note the above passage says "a change" - singular. What was this change? Messiah's Crucifixion abolished the need Levitical Sacrificial system and therefore the need for the Levitical Priesthood, which in turn was permanently abolished when the Temple was destroyed in 70CE. But that does not neccessarily mean that the other ordaninces of the Torah have been abolished as not all the ordinances (like the dietry laws) are about atonement for sin. God moved into the "next phase" of His plan for mankind as He promised, however God's plan as a whole has not be completed yet - that will only happen when Messiah returns. We interpret "Messiah fulfilled the Law" to mean that He fulfilled that Sacrificial laws of the Torah, but that He fulfilled all the Law? Not yet, as He Himself said:

{Matthew 5:17-18} Do not think that I have come to break down the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to break [them] down, but to fulfill [them]. For assuredly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one stroke will pass from the law until everything happens.

If Messiah had fulfilled all of the Torah in 70CE there would be no point for Him to come a 2nd time now would there? While the Sacrificial laws of the Torah have been abolished by the Cross the rest of the Torah will only be abolished after the Final Judgement, cause if the Torah has been completley abolished then on what grounds will Messiah judge the unbelieving living and dead? Again this is why the Feasts of YHWH in particular are still so important to Nazarenes, we celebrate "what is to come" will just as much enthusiasm as we celebrate "what has come to pass". This is something most Protestants simply refuse to even try to understand, thankfully most Orthodox Christians I've met have been a lot more open minded regarding this.
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« Reply #186 on: December 16, 2010, 03:36:31 PM »

After watching the video,it seems they are very close in practice,to modern day Pentacostals,and also a question for Nazarene,do you practice both Baptism and Circumcision?

Yes.
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« Reply #187 on: December 16, 2010, 03:40:40 PM »

I believe the Torah was given to Israel, and I'm not of Jewish ancestry myself (so it doesn't really make any difference to me), but I've often wondered what Jesus meant when He said:

Think not that I've come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, I have not come to destroy but to fill full. For truly I say to you that not a jot or stroke will pass from the Law till everything comes to pass.

I've address this before:

I thought Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism?

Depends what you mean by "fulfillment". Christianity/Messianity/Nazarenism or whatever you call it (the Assyrian Church doesn't call it "Christianity" either btw) is the natural continuation of the original Faith of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets who all had Faith in the pre-Incarnate Messiah (the Arm & Word of YHWH). When something "moves into a new phase" so to speak, it means that changes will occur, but doesn't neccessarily mean that everything changes or that everything that was previously established is completely abolished:

{Hebrews 7:11-12} Therefore, if perfection is by way of the priesthood of Levi, by which the law was established for the people, why was it necessary that another priest should be raised up in the likeness of Melchisedec? Then he [would have] said, "He will be in the likeness of Aaron." But in the same way as a change took place in the priesthood, so a change also took place in the law.

Note the above passage says "a change" - singular. What was this change? Messiah's Crucifixion abolished the need Levitical Sacrificial system and therefore the need for the Levitical Priesthood, which in turn was permanently abolished when the Temple was destroyed in 70CE. But that does not neccessarily mean that the other ordaninces of the Torah have been abolished as not all the ordinances (like the dietry laws) are about atonement for sin. God moved into the "next phase" of His plan for mankind as He promised, however God's plan as a whole has not be completed yet - that will only happen when Messiah returns. We interpret "Messiah fulfilled the Law" to mean that He fulfilled that Sacrificial laws of the Torah, but that He fulfilled all the Law? Not yet, as He Himself said:

{Matthew 5:17-18} Do not think that I have come to break down the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to break [them] down, but to fulfill [them]. For assuredly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one stroke will pass from the law until everything happens.

If Messiah had fulfilled all of the Torah in 70CE there would be no point for Him to come a 2nd time now would there? While the Sacrificial laws of the Torah have been abolished by the Cross the rest of the Torah will only be abolished after the Final Judgement, cause if the Torah has been completley abolished then on what grounds will Messiah judge the unbelieving living and dead? Again this is why the Feasts of YHWH in particular are still so important to Nazarenes, we celebrate "what is to come" will just as much enthusiasm as we celebrate "what has come to pass". This is something most Protestants simply refuse to even try to understand, thankfully most Orthodox Christians I've met have been a lot more open minded regarding this.

The Lawgiver said while He offfered His sacrifice "It is finished/accomplished/perfected" (depending on how you translate ashlam).

Passover gave way to Pascha, Pentecost to Pentecost, the Amida to the Lord's Prayer, etc. And yes, the Gospel and the Book of Acts are explicite that the diety laws have been fulfilled.
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« Reply #188 on: December 16, 2010, 03:48:48 PM »

So then Heaven and Earth has passed away and the Master is never coming back?
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« Reply #189 on: December 16, 2010, 06:51:27 PM »

So then Heaven and Earth has passed away and the Master is never coming back?

Let me first say that I have a great deal of respect for you personally and I am continually impressed with you knowledge.

However  Smiley

You can argue all of these points, make a logical case for them but still be left in error. That is because you do not accept the Mystical Role of the Church. If you are not physically grafted on to the Body of Christ, your salvation is in Jeopardy. You are reduced to Protestant style apologetics which must fail in the end no matter how cogent or well said.

Just like there is One God, there is One Church.
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« Reply #190 on: December 16, 2010, 06:58:25 PM »

Nazarene, I was still waiting for this reply, if you could:

Nazarene, I was looking for a response to this in particular:

Because Messianic Judaism in general seems to be an outgrowth of the (Ana)Baptist churches, I am curious if these elements would be a part of the liturgy and devotions you are constructing:

Veneration of and communion with the saints, especially the Virgin Mariam.

Prayer for the recently reposed.

Real Presence of "Yeshua Messiah" in the Eucharist.

1. Yes we believe He's really present the way you believe it.

2. The righteous dead are mentioned in our prayers but we do not pray to them or for them. We pray to God and ask Him to remember them on the day of the Resurrection and hope that He will grant them eternal life on that day and reunite us with them. This ties in with our understanding of the afterlife which I plan to address sometime here. We also believe that the Angels and Martyrs pray with us and for us but we do not pray to them or address them, we don't feel it's necessary because we know that they are always doing just that.

3. The Mother of our Master is always mentioned in our prayers. We regard her as highly as we regard our father Abraham, we view Abraham as our father of faith and likewise view Mary as our mother of faith - the female equivalent. She, just like him is someone for us to emulate - we ask God to make us as humble and obedient as she is. And like we bless Abraham, we bless her as well.


Abraham is your father, Mary is your mother. Seems incongruous. Why not Sarah?
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« Reply #191 on: December 16, 2010, 09:02:00 PM »

So then Heaven and Earth has passed away and the Master is never coming back?
No, your interpretation is incorrect.
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« Reply #192 on: December 17, 2010, 12:52:05 PM »

So then Heaven and Earth has passed away and the Master is never coming back?

Let me first say that I have a great deal of respect for you personally and I am continually impressed with you knowledge.
[/quote]

Likewise Wink You've certainly taught me a thing or two and I love and respect as much as ever brother.

However  Smiley

You can argue all of these points, make a logical case for them but still be left in error. That is because you do not accept the Mystical Role of the Church.

Says who? I do accept the Church's mystical role, I just don't accept the changes the Church has made to the Traditions the Apostles have entrusted to Her. Had the Church kept EVERY Apostolic tradition and ONLY THOSE traditions without ANY ALTERATION WHATSOEVER I and every other Nazarene would have no issues with the Church.

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit. Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century. That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

1) When you entrust something to someone for a time (and it is for a time - until Messiah returns), when you return you expect it to be in the EXACT SAME CONDITION it was in when you handed it over. The Jews failed to do this with the Torah, and from what we have seen the Church has also failed to do this with the Traditions of the Apostles because they are not identical to their original forms. In short we feel you've failed the Apostles in guarding their Holy Traditions.

2) If you regard the Apostolic Traditions as highly as you claim you do then why make changes? Weren't they good enough for you EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WERE? Why would you expect anything less than the very best from God and His Son? How can what you have instated be superior to what They have instated? Did you doubt your ability to follow through with what they have commanded and feel compelled to make it more acceptable to the godless pagans? You comprised, you gave in to people who were not willing to worship YHWH the way He commanded but the way they used to worship their gods. You Hellenized, Romanized and Paganized the precious Traditions entrusted to you, you made your own cultural traditions on par and in some cases superior to God's Traditions. So we're not convinced that they meant as much to you as you claimed and that you respected them as much as you claimed to.

The objections we have against the Church regarding Holy Traditions are very serious, but are really that unreasonable?

If you are not physically grafted on to the Body of Christ, your salvation is in Jeopardy. You are reduced to Protestant style apologetics which must fail in the end no matter how cogent or well said.

Just like there is One God, there is One Church.

There is One God but He consists of 3 Qnome, there is One Nation - Israel, but She consists of 12 tribes. There is nothing wrong with diversity within unity, what is wrong is when the majority group(s) seek to force the minority group(s) to do things their way when they are not required to, and it's especially bad when it concerns things commanded of them. The Jewish believers were guilty of this in the 1st century when they were the majority, and the Apostles rebuked them. The gentile believers have been doing the same since they became the majority, this is wrong too, you can't tell me it's wrong for us but not for you. Judaizing the Faith is a heresy, the Faith was "Jewish" enough, but paganizing the Faith is just as big a heresy, it's a heresy that the Church to this day has failed to condemn.

You want us to forsake things that God emphatically commanded us to do and adopt stuff that He clearly states is detestable for us. We can't wrap our heads around this. We don't understand your lack of fear regarding these things, we don't understand how you still haven't learnt from our own mistakes. Call us paranoid but we have been punished over and over throughout the centuries when we did things our way instead of His, so there is no way we are ever going to willingly and consciously take that chance again no matter how much you ridicule or scorn us. We can't make everybody happy, no one can, but really do not want to piss off the Big Guy, and sorry but we love Him more than we love you, and always will.

We love our Saviour and His Apostles, that's why we want to be EXACTLY like them and do things EXACTLY the way they did them, we believe the Church was capable of the same, and is capable is restoring the original practices. We just can't understand why you didn't and why you still won't. The only reason we can think of is this - you didn't and still don't want to because you love yourselves more. It's harsh but sorry that's the impression you've given us.

I'll leave you with this: many Messianic Jews believe that gentile believers should also follow the Jewish Christian customs and are intent on imposing them on their gentile converts, insisting on circumcision and other such matters. Me and my congregation do not agree with them, we do not believe in forcing such matters on gentiles, we don't believe we have the right to do this, God is the Judge, not us. But likewise we do not believe that gentiles have the right to force us to forsake our God-given customs, if it's wrong for us then it's wrong for everyone including you. If we wish to keep our customs we have the right to do so, if we wish to abandon them we have the right to do so, you however do not have the right to make go which ever way. Not allowing Jewish believers to observe their diet and holidays is discrimination because you allow everyone else. Yes they are religious but they were instated by the God you yourself worship, not by Vishnu or Muhammad's Allah. And BTW they are all about His Son anyway, and surely He knows better than anyone how best to celebrate Him.


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« Reply #193 on: December 17, 2010, 04:11:20 PM »

Says who? I do accept the Church's mystical role, I just don't accept the changes the Church has made to the Traditions the Apostles have entrusted to Her. Had the Church kept EVERY Apostolic tradition and ONLY THOSE traditions without ANY ALTERATION WHATSOEVER I and every other Nazarene would have no issues with the Church.

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit.
Depends on what you mean by "sees fit."  She speaks, from her Head, "as one having authority, and not as the scribes and pharisees," with the authority to bind and loose in heaven.

Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE.
And so the Orthodox Church has.

The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century.

Such as?

That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

1) When you entrust something to someone for a time (and it is for a time - until Messiah returns), when you return you expect it to be in the EXACT SAME CONDITION it was in when you handed it over. The Jews failed to do this with the Torah, and from what we have seen the Church has also failed to do this with the Traditions of the Apostles because they are not identical to their original forms. In short we feel you've failed the Apostles in guarding their Holy Traditions.
Such as?

Btw, do you fault the Hebrews for the synagogue and its services, not found at all in the Torah? Because and Christ and the Apostles certainly accpeted the synagouge, worshippped in its services, and passed in down into the Church as the Liturgy of the Word.

2) If you regard the Apostolic Traditions as highly as you claim you do then why make changes?
We are not living in 1st century Palestine, or even the Roman Empire.

You'll have to specify what you claim is changed for a complete answer.

Weren't they good enough for you EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WERE?
Depends on what you are talking about.

Why would you expect anything less than the very best from God and His Son? How can what you have instated be superior to what They have instated? Did you doubt your ability to follow through with what they have commanded and feel compelled to make it more acceptable to the godless pagans? You comprised, you gave in to people who were not willing to worship YHWH the way He commanded but the way they used to worship their gods. You Hellenized, Romanized and Paganized the precious Traditions entrusted to you, you made your own cultural traditions on par and in some cases superior to God's Traditions. So we're not convinced that they meant as much to you as you claimed and that you respected them as much as you claimed to.

The objections we have against the Church regarding Holy Traditions are very serious, but are really that unreasonable?

Depends on what you are specifically talking about. Since we have not paganized the Traditions of the Church, I would say no.

If you are not physically grafted on to the Body of Christ, your salvation is in Jeopardy. You are reduced to Protestant style apologetics which must fail in the end no matter how cogent or well said.

Just like there is One God, there is One Church.

There is One God but He consists of 3 Qnome, there is One Nation - Israel, but She consists of 12 tribes. There is nothing wrong with diversity within unity, what is wrong is when the majority group(s) seek to force the minority group(s) to do things their way when they are not required to, and it's especially bad when it concerns things commanded of them. The Jewish believers were guilty of this in the 1st century when they were the majority, and the Apostles rebuked them. The gentile believers have been doing the same since they became the majority, this is wrong too, you can't tell me it's wrong for us but not for you. Judaizing the Faith is a heresy, the Faith was "Jewish" enough, but paganizing the Faith is just as big a heresy, it's a heresy that the Church to this day has failed to condemn.
Since the Faith hasn't been "paganized," there is nothing to condemn.

You want us to forsake things that God emphatically commanded us to do and adopt stuff that He clearly states is detestable for us. We can't wrap our heads around this. We don't understand your lack of fear regarding these things, we don't understand how you still haven't learnt from our own mistakes. Call us paranoid but we have been punished over and over throughout the centuries
What centuries?
Quote
when we did things our way instead of His, so there is no way we are ever going to willingly and consciously take that chance again no matter how much you ridicule or scorn us. We can't make everybody happy, no one can, but really do not want to piss off the Big Guy, and sorry but we love Him more than we love you, and always will.

We love our Saviour and His Apostles, that's why we want to be EXACTLY like them and do things EXACTLY the way they did them, we believe the Church was capable of the same, and is capable is restoring the original practices. We just can't understand why you didn't and why you still won't. The only reason we can think of is this - you didn't and still don't want to because you love yourselves more. It's harsh but sorry that's the impression you've given us.

I'll leave you with this: many Messianic Jews believe that gentile believers should also follow the Jewish Christian customs and are intent on imposing them on their gentile converts, insisting on circumcision and other such matters. Me and my congregation do not agree with them, we do not believe in forcing such matters on gentiles, we don't believe we have the right to do this, God is the Judge, not us.
The Church (and hence God) has already judged this through the mouth of St. James, the Brother of God, who sat on throne of David as the Cathedra of the Mother Church of Jerusalem. Acts 15:19.
Quote
But likewise we do not believe that gentiles have the right to force us to forsake our God-given customs, if it's wrong for us then it's wrong for everyone including you. If we wish to keep our customs we have the right to do so, if we wish to abandon them we have the right to do so, you however do not have the right to make go which ever way. Not allowing Jewish believers to observe their diet and holidays is discrimination because you allow everyone else. Yes they are religious but they were instated by the God you yourself worship, not by Vishnu or Muhammad's Allah. And BTW they are all about His Son anyway, and surely He knows better than anyone how best to celebrate Him.
There's some truth in all that.
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« Reply #194 on: December 17, 2010, 04:35:17 PM »

Abraham is your father, Mary is your mother. Seems incongruous. Why not Sarah?

Because even though Sarah is mentioned in Hebrew's "hall of faith" (11:4-31) while Mary is not, Sarah played a "supporting role" in God's plan through Abraham, the same can be said about Joseph playing a "supporting" role in God's plan through Mary. God made His covenant with Abraham, He said that Abraham will "be a blessing" to all the families of the earth and that they will "bless themselves by you". Abraham was God's instrument of blessing, Mary like Abraham immediately accepted what God asked of her and she became His instrument for blessing as she herself acknowledged: "all generations will give me a blessing" (Luke 1:48). Putting anyone on par with Abraham is a huge deal, a giant honor, no one deserves this honor more than Mary because through her the blessings of Abraham are fulfilled in the person of Messiah.
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« Reply #195 on: December 17, 2010, 04:46:30 PM »

Abraham is your father, Mary is your mother. Seems incongruous. Why not Sarah?

Because even though Sarah is mentioned in Hebrew's "hall of faith" (11:4-31) while Mary is not, Sarah played a "supporting role" in God's plan through Abraham, the same can be said about Joseph playing a "supporting" role in God's plan through Mary. God made His covenant with Abraham, He said that Abraham will "be a blessing" to all the families of the earth and that they will "bless themselves by you". Abraham was God's instrument of blessing, Mary like Abraham immediately accepted what God asked of her and she became His instrument for blessing as she herself acknowledged: "all generations will give me a blessing" (Luke 1:48). Putting anyone on par with Abraham is a huge deal, a giant honor, no one deserves this honor more than Mary because through her the blessings of Abraham are fulfilled in the person of Messiah.
God honores our Mother Sarah:
Gen. 17:15 And God said to Abraham, "As for Sar'ai your wife, you shall not call her name Sar'ai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her; I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her." 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said to himself, "Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "O that Ish'mael might live in thy sight!" 19 God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
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« Reply #196 on: December 17, 2010, 05:26:19 PM »

Had the Church kept EVERY Apostolic tradition and ONLY THOSE traditions without ANY ALTERATION WHATSOEVER I and every other Nazarene would have no issues with the Church.

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit. Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century. That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

1) When you entrust something to someone for a time (and it is for a time - until Messiah returns), when you return you expect it to be in the EXACT SAME CONDITION it was in when you handed it over.

I'm going to have to disagree. If the Church was in the exact same condition as when Christ left, it wouldn't have baptized literally billions of souls over 20 centuries. Parable of the talents: don't bury it or you're a wicked servant.

You and your religious colleagues are self-appointed Nazarenes, and you're the ones getting to arbitrate what constitutes as authentic apostolic tradition and what does not. Same old Protestant story that's been told in various other similar ways over the last five centuries, and it's getting old. Why should I submit to your interpretation of the past, or see it as binding or having any authority?
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« Reply #197 on: December 17, 2010, 05:34:29 PM »

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit. Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century. That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

 Since you live in a glass house, I hope you have adequate first aid.  Pretend Jews seem to never learn.  Messyanic Judyism is nothing but a hodge-podge of traditions from two (maybe more?) faiths tied together with grandiose illusions to form a monstrosity that never was. 

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« Reply #198 on: December 17, 2010, 08:34:17 PM »

You can argue all of these points, make a logical case for them but still be left in error. That is because you do not accept the Mystical Role of the Church. If you are not physically grafted on to the Body of Christ, your salvation is in Jeopardy. You are reduced to Protestant style apologetics which must fail in the end no matter how cogent or well said.

Just like there is One God, there is One Church.

Please forgive me for interrupting, Marc, but I don't understand your words that you must be "physically" grafted onto Christ's Body.

In Romans 9, Saul of Tarsus explains his belief that adoption, a kind of spiritual grafting, was as valid as physical descent. He pointed out that God had adopted Abraham and Israel. Saul also pointed out that only one of Abraham's children, Isaac, belonged to God. Saul concludes: "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son".

I think what you're saying, and if so I agree, is that it's important to have participation in the Eucharist.

I agree with your other points.

All the Best.
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« Reply #199 on: December 18, 2010, 03:25:34 PM »

So then Heaven and Earth has passed away and the Master is never coming back?

Let me first say that I have a great deal of respect for you personally and I am continually impressed with you knowledge.

Likewise Wink You've certainly taught me a thing or two and I love and respect as much as ever brother.

However  Smiley

You can argue all of these points, make a logical case for them but still be left in error. That is because you do not accept the Mystical Role of the Church.

Says who? I do accept the Church's mystical role, I just don't accept the changes the Church has made to the Traditions the Apostles have entrusted to Her. Had the Church kept EVERY Apostolic tradition and ONLY THOSE traditions without ANY ALTERATION WHATSOEVER I and every other Nazarene would have no issues with the Church.

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit. Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century. That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

1) When you entrust something to someone for a time (and it is for a time - until Messiah returns), when you return you expect it to be in the EXACT SAME CONDITION it was in when you handed it over. The Jews failed to do this with the Torah, and from what we have seen the Church has also failed to do this with the Traditions of the Apostles because they are not identical to their original forms. In short we feel you've failed the Apostles in guarding their Holy Traditions.

2) If you regard the Apostolic Traditions as highly as you claim you do then why make changes? Weren't they good enough for you EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WERE? Why would you expect anything less than the very best from God and His Son? How can what you have instated be superior to what They have instated? Did you doubt your ability to follow through with what they have commanded and feel compelled to make it more acceptable to the godless pagans? You comprised, you gave in to people who were not willing to worship YHWH the way He commanded but the way they used to worship their gods. You Hellenized, Romanized and Paganized the precious Traditions entrusted to you, you made your own cultural traditions on par and in some cases superior to God's Traditions. So we're not convinced that they meant as much to you as you claimed and that you respected them as much as you claimed to.

The objections we have against the Church regarding Holy Traditions are very serious, but are really that unreasonable?

If you are not physically grafted on to the Body of Christ, your salvation is in Jeopardy. You are reduced to Protestant style apologetics which must fail in the end no matter how cogent or well said.

Just like there is One God, there is One Church.

There is One God but He consists of 3 Qnome, there is One Nation - Israel, but She consists of 12 tribes. There is nothing wrong with diversity within unity, what is wrong is when the majority group(s) seek to force the minority group(s) to do things their way when they are not required to, and it's especially bad when it concerns things commanded of them. The Jewish believers were guilty of this in the 1st century when they were the majority, and the Apostles rebuked them. The gentile believers have been doing the same since they became the majority, this is wrong too, you can't tell me it's wrong for us but not for you. Judaizing the Faith is a heresy, the Faith was "Jewish" enough, but paganizing the Faith is just as big a heresy, it's a heresy that the Church to this day has failed to condemn.

You want us to forsake things that God emphatically commanded us to do and adopt stuff that He clearly states is detestable for us. We can't wrap our heads around this. We don't understand your lack of fear regarding these things, we don't understand how you still haven't learnt from our own mistakes. Call us paranoid but we have been punished over and over throughout the centuries when we did things our way instead of His, so there is no way we are ever going to willingly and consciously take that chance again no matter how much you ridicule or scorn us. We can't make everybody happy, no one can, but really do not want to piss off the Big Guy, and sorry but we love Him more than we love you, and always will.

We love our Saviour and His Apostles, that's why we want to be EXACTLY like them and do things EXACTLY the way they did them, we believe the Church was capable of the same, and is capable is restoring the original practices. We just can't understand why you didn't and why you still won't. The only reason we can think of is this - you didn't and still don't want to because you love yourselves more. It's harsh but sorry that's the impression you've given us.

I'll leave you with this: many Messianic Jews believe that gentile believers should also follow the Jewish Christian customs and are intent on imposing them on their gentile converts, insisting on circumcision and other such matters. Me and my congregation do not agree with them, we do not believe in forcing such matters on gentiles, we don't believe we have the right to do this, God is the Judge, not us. But likewise we do not believe that gentiles have the right to force us to forsake our God-given customs, if it's wrong for us then it's wrong for everyone including you. If we wish to keep our customs we have the right to do so, if we wish to abandon them we have the right to do so, you however do not have the right to make go which ever way. Not allowing Jewish believers to observe their diet and holidays is discrimination because you allow everyone else. Yes they are religious but they were instated by the God you yourself worship, not by Vishnu or Muhammad's Allah. And BTW they are all about His Son anyway, and surely He knows better than anyone how best to celebrate Him.



[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------

And if i were 20 years younger................................ and ummmm  not married.   Wink

The way I hear what you are saying is that if the Church were not acting as the Church you would join it. I realize that it's tough when your own ox is being gored.

I still think your World View is essentially Protestant. You pick and chose and decide what you like and don't like and then reformulate to make yourself more comfortable.

The Mystical role of the Church is not a slogan. There is something that operates within The Church that does not outside of it. For example, you say your group believes in the real presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. Forgive me but, so what? Your belief and $2.25 gets you a cup of coffee. The Lord is not present in any Eucharist outside of his Church. And we don't mean a big invisible conglomeration of people who have faith. We mean what the Apostles founded and passed on, physically. An actual Church, not an idea.

Orthodox Christianity is about the transformation of your soul. You are at the minimum cut off from the fundemetal vehicle for that transformation, the Eucharist. And that is just for starters.

The Church has the Authority to deal with questions as they arise. This ranges from the spiritual identity of Jesus Christ and includes such things as whether to allow Jewish Observances by Jews who have converted. The Church is Christ on Earth. It is fully guided by the Holy Spirit and when it errs it always is corrected. The changes you don't like are long standing and have stood the test of time. No matter how the arithmetic adds up for you personally, no matter how familiar a Jewish/Christian mixed religion is for you, it cut's you off from the Church itself which is never a wise thing.
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« Reply #200 on: December 23, 2010, 02:59:44 PM »

Hello all, Christ is born! This is my first post mostly because this is the subject that brought me here and it is a fascinating one I've been looking to discuss with fair-minded individuals. With that I'll jump right in.

I came from a protestant background and discovered Orthodoxy through my best friend about three years ago. I went through much of the same thing as I took an early interest in messianic Judaism, but soon realized that like many of you say, it is really just a re-hatch and is for the most part or in most cases essentially just protestantism. I think we all agree you need traditional teachings connected to the past to even begin to know what's going on in the Bible; else wise you are just using a type of scholasticism inherited from The Enlightenment (most people don't realize that the way they think and how they approach a book is according to the western TRADITIONS they were taught in school and society).
Now there is one interesting example of a Nazarene Rabbi who's roots go all the way back to the first century in that he is from a long line of secret messianic jews, he is about the only example of a legitimate Nazarene I've ever heard of. Of course he rejects any form of other Christianity and any attempts of mine to speak with him and get a better understanding have come to naught (that's what makes me most sad is that one has such deep spiritual inquiry and so far no one like this seems to be willing or able to speak to me about something they claim is so true and so needed).
Anyway here is a video of his on youtube if you're interested:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CojKfel24sA
Like I said I tried emailing this guy, though he is wrong his case is extremely interesting to me.


Quote
Says who? I do accept the Church's mystical role, I just don't accept the changes the Church has made to the Traditions the Apostles have entrusted to Her. Had the Church kept EVERY Apostolic tradition and ONLY THOSE traditions without ANY ALTERATION WHATSOEVER I and every other Nazarene would have no issues with the Church.

It's like this: Orthodox (if I'm not mistaken) feel that the Church has the authority to make changes to the Traditions handed to Her by the Apostles as She sees fit. Nazarenes do not agree with this. We feel that what the Apostles entrusted to the Church is what is meant to be kept EXACTLY AS THEY GAVE IT until the return the King, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS AND NOTHING ELSE. The Church has made changes to the Traditions: She has discarded some Traditions the 1st century believers once practiced, added new traditions that they NEVER practiced and altered some traditions so they are no longer practiced the way they were in the 1st century. That is the truth, Church records bear this out, and we don't accept this for the following reasons:

1) When you entrust something to someone for a time (and it is for a time - until Messiah returns), when you return you expect it to be in the EXACT SAME CONDITION it was in when you handed it over. The Jews failed to do this with the Torah, and from what we have seen the Church has also failed to do this with the Traditions of the Apostles because they are not identical to their original forms. In short we feel you've failed the Apostles in guarding their Holy Traditions.

2) If you regard the Apostolic Traditions as highly as you claim you do then why make changes? Weren't they good enough for you EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WERE? Why would you expect anything less than the very best from God and His Son? How can what you have instated be superior to what They have instated? Did you doubt your ability to follow through with what they have commanded and feel compelled to make it more acceptable to the godless pagans? You comprised, you gave in to people who were not willing to worship YHWH the way He commanded but the way they used to worship their gods. You Hellenized, Romanized and Paganized the precious Traditions entrusted to you, you made your own cultural traditions on par and in some cases superior to God's Traditions. So we're not convinced that they meant as much to you as you claimed and that you respected them as much as you claimed to.

The objections we have against the Church regarding Holy Traditions are very serious, but are really that unreasonable?

I think the other members and myself are chiefly interested in a list of 'changes' that you believe were supposedly made in Holy Tradition as it has been the unchanging truth in The Church's teachings that is the absolute heart of Truth and indeed the very foundation of Orthodoxy, please when you can validate this claim. Also you say "You Hellenized, Romanized and Paganized the precious Traditions entrusted to you, you made your own cultural traditions on par and in some cases superior to God's Traditions." this is a common claim amongst Jews and even Atheists about The Church and it is silly. Did not Paul say that all things are made new in Christ? Paul said he was a Jew to the Jews and a gentile to gentile, that he dressed poor for the poor and rich for rich so that they may see that Christ is for all of all places and cultures. An example of this teaching in the Orthodox Church is the bongo drums in some Antiochian Churches, when voodoo peoples of Africa were converted by the Church they turned an instrument that was once used to worship demons into an instrument used to worship God, now you could say that that is an example of "Africanizing God's Traditions" but this is simply a matter of convention. You will find that the core of the truth and the Doctrines of The Church have neither been changed or extrapolated on over the centuries. If there are appearances of additions this is only to help new cultures or peoples understand the Truth or in some cases to clarify things in response to heresies to prevent confusion in peoples.
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« Reply #201 on: December 26, 2010, 01:23:49 AM »



Does Father Bernstsein attend a Synagogue? Does he keep kosher? Does he keep the Sat. Sabbath? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.

Can you answer my question? I'll shorten it for you. Would you have Jews who have converted observe Yom Yipper?  Would you have us go to synagogue and fast from all food as an atonement for sins committed that year?

Since Fr. James is our parish priest I will answer.

Fr. James is actually a vegetarian for the most part. He is used to keeping kosher, so he tends to maintain many of those traditions. When he is not in the Nave he tends to wear a cap. Obviously he does notkeep the Saturday Sabbath, but I will say that he observes more Jewish practices than I have seen in the average person that calls themselves a Jew but doesn't attend a synagogue.

You really should read "The Shape of the Liturgy" to delve into the connections there are between traditional Jewish worship and Orthodox practices.
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« Reply #202 on: December 26, 2010, 07:22:52 PM »



Does Father Bernstsein attend a Synagogue? Does he keep kosher? Does he keep the Sat. Sabbath? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.

Can you answer my question? I'll shorten it for you. Would you have Jews who have converted observe Yom Yipper?  Would you have us go to synagogue and fast from all food as an atonement for sins committed that year?

Since Fr. James is our parish priest I will answer.

Fr. James is actually a vegetarian for the most part. He is used to keeping kosher, so he tends to maintain many of those traditions. When he is not in the Nave he tends to wear a cap. Obviously he does notkeep the Saturday Sabbath, but I will say that he observes more Jewish practices than I have seen in the average person that calls themselves a Jew but doesn't attend a synagogue.

You really should read "The Shape of the Liturgy" to delve into the connections there are between traditional Jewish worship and Orthodox practices.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am well aware of the similarities between worship in Synagogue and Orthodox Worship, since I am a Jewish Convert.

I guess I need to be clearer. Observing Yom Kipper is a spiritual practice with a definite soteriological purpose. In other words, this is how to be {spiritually} saved, at least for the next year.  It would seem improper for a Christian to observe this practice. It would clearly fall under the heresy of Judaizing Christianity to my way of thinking. It is a horse of a different color than keeping ones head covered as an act of humility or observing a feast like Hanukkah which is the remembrance of a miracle.

Thanks
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« Reply #203 on: December 26, 2010, 11:41:03 PM »

Quinault,

It is an honor to have you with us. I read alot of SURPRISED BY CHRIST not long ago. It is a special book, and Fr. Bernstein's story is inspirational.

I look forward to discussing more with you.

Happy Nativity. Christ is Born.

Marc,

Quinault has answered an earlier question.

Does Father Bernstsein keep kosher? I dont think he does, so obviously the very source you site does not agree with your suggestions.

He is used to keeping kosher, so he tends to maintain many of those traditions.


Happy Nativity, brother.
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« Reply #204 on: December 27, 2010, 01:45:15 AM »

Fr. James spoke once about how Yom Kippur is connected to an Orthodox holy day. I will try to ask him when I see him next. Although I am pretty sure that Fr. Av Alexander has already covered Yom Kippur and Christianity on his blog in the past.
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« Reply #205 on: December 27, 2010, 01:47:29 AM »

Fr. James was a Jewish convert and he said that he learned a great deal reading "The Shape of the Liturgy." The author is not Orthodox, he is Anglican. So it isn't a book that many Orthodox Christians would often think of reading. I would really suggest you look into it.
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« Reply #206 on: December 27, 2010, 03:11:11 PM »

I guess I need to be clearer. Observing Yom Kipper is a spiritual practice with a definite soteriological purpose. In other words, this is how to be {spiritually} saved, at least for the next year.  It would seem improper for a Christian to observe this practice. It would clearly fall under the heresy of Judaizing Christianity to my way of thinking. It is a horse of a different color than keeping ones head covered as an act of humility or observing a feast like Hanukkah which is the remembrance of a miracle.

That's an interesting distinction. I find that helpful.
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« Reply #207 on: January 01, 2011, 02:42:33 AM »

The early Church did partake of the Body and Blood every week

Shalom Nazarene, I find this forum most enjoyable. I'm new to the forum, but not new to Scripture, although, the more I read and study it, the less I seem to know!? Wink

I considered myself Messianic untill I noticed how messi the messianics are. There are too many differences among different congregations and thus I now proclaim to just be a Tanakh follower and believer in Yahushua Messiah.

The quote above caught my eye. I cannot find any Scriptural support for that statement - not that it is of relevance in this discussion - just curious why you say that.

Regarding the circumcision, I did a study on it an instead of rewriting all of it, it can be found here:
http://www.circumcisionforum.com/content/origin-and-reason-circumcision
You are all welcome to go through it and start firing away with any comments.
Barakah (Blessings)
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« Reply #208 on: January 01, 2011, 05:24:42 AM »

The early Church did partake of the Body and Blood every week

The quote above caught my eye. I cannot find any Scriptural support for that statement - not that it is of relevance in this discussion - just curious why you say that.

Greetings, have you read the Didache (50-120 CE)? Or the First Apology of Justin (150-160 CE)? These are writings by early church fathers showing how meeting on the first day of the week was the common practice, and that breaking bread and taking wine (aka. "the Eucharist") was part of their weekly gathering. This would complement what you see in the book of Acts regarding the Apostles/disciples meeting for "the prayers" and the breaking of bread together.


For example, from the 1st Apology of Justin Martyr:

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.
And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.


And from the Didache:

Chapter 9. The Eucharist.
Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:
We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

And concerning the broken bread:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."


Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."
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« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2011, 05:41:29 AM »

I haven't really read this thread however speaking as a Jew, I can say this. Messianic 'Jews' are NOT Jews nor are the considered Jews by Jews, regardless of whether they be Reform, Orthodox, Haredi, etc. They are Christians who like to wear kippah.

Does this apply to other religious groups? Are Buddhist 'Jews' also Buddhists who like to wear kippah?
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« Reply #210 on: January 01, 2011, 12:45:02 PM »

I haven't really read this thread however speaking as a Jew, I can say this. Messianic 'Jews' are NOT Jews nor are the considered Jews by Jews, regardless of whether they be Reform, Orthodox, Haredi, etc. They are Christians who like to wear kippah.

Does this apply to other religious groups? Are Buddhist 'Jews' also Buddhists who like to wear kippah?

Buddhist who are Jews should be considered as French..

Pretty ridiculous, huh?

Is an American who converts to Islam no longer an American?

Are Jews who have a totally secular World View and are Agnostic at best no longer Jews?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 12:47:40 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #211 on: January 01, 2011, 01:17:04 PM »

I haven't really read this thread however speaking as a Jew, I can say this. Messianic 'Jews' are NOT Jews nor are the considered Jews by Jews, regardless of whether they be Reform, Orthodox, Haredi, etc. They are Christians who like to wear kippah.

Does this apply to other religious groups? Are Buddhist 'Jews' also Buddhists who like to wear kippah?

Buddhist who are Jews should be considered as French..

Pretty ridiculous, huh?

Is an American who converts to Islam no longer an American?

Are Jews who have a totally secular World View and are Agnostic at best no longer Jews?
I had  a Jewish roomate who claimed to be Taoist, and he wasn't the only one I've met.
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« Reply #212 on: January 01, 2011, 01:52:50 PM »

I haven't really read this thread however speaking as a Jew, I can say this. Messianic 'Jews' are NOT Jews nor are the considered Jews by Jews, regardless of whether they be Reform, Orthodox, Haredi, etc. They are Christians who like to wear kippah.

Does this apply to other religious groups? Are Buddhist 'Jews' also Buddhists who like to wear kippah?

Buddhist who are Jews should be considered as French..

Pretty ridiculous, huh?

Is an American who converts to Islam no longer an American?

Are Jews who have a totally secular World View and are Agnostic at best no longer Jews?
I had  a Jewish roomate who claimed to be Taoist, and he wasn't the only one I've met.

Did he claim to be a cradle Taoist?   Smiley
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #213 on: January 10, 2011, 10:04:14 PM »

I do accept the Church's mystical role, I just don't accept the changes the Church has made to the Traditions the Apostles have entrusted to Her.


Hi Nazarene,
What changes exactly do you take issue with? Please be specific as my history is not up to the same snub as some of the more learned forum members.

- In Peace, SG+
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 10:10:25 PM by simplygermain » Logged

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« Reply #214 on: January 11, 2011, 04:31:23 PM »

We pray to God and ask Him to remember them on the day of the Resurrection and hope that He will grant them eternal life on that day...

It seems rather presumptuous to pray for the Theotokos, Ss. Peter and Paul, etc., who have completed the race and have been manifestly saved and glorified by their God. We are in need of their prayers, not vice versa.
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