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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Dynamis!
« on: August 28, 2009, 09:09:01 PM »
The Thrice Holy Hymn as sung during the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Tradition:

People: +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
           +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
           +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
           +Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Now and ever and unto ages of ages Amen. Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

Priest: With Strength!

People: +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

The Thrice Holy Hymn as sung during the Divine Liturgy in the Slavic Tradition:

People: +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
           +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
           +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
          +Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
           Now and ever and unto ages of ages Amen. Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
          +Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

During the Thrice Holy Hymn in the Byzantine tradition, the priest "interrupts" (for lack of a better term) the hymn with the Greek expression "Dynamis". (I've been told by a Greek priest "With Strength" is a poor translation of this word, so he refuses to say the English. I'll take his word for it since I don't speak a lick of Greek.)

Why does this "interruption" occur in the Byzantine tradition, but not the Slavic tradition?
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 10:09:29 PM »
During the Thrice Holy Hymn in the Byzantine tradition, the priest "interrupts" (for lack of a better term) the hymn with the Greek expression "Dynamis". (I've been told by a Greek priest "With Strength" is a poor translation of this word, so he refuses to say the English. I'll take his word for it since I don't speak a lick of Greek.)

Why does this "interruption" occur in the Byzantine tradition, but not the Slavic tradition?

1.  Dynamis can better translated as power or force.  The Priest is directing the choir or chanters to sing the final stanza slower and louder for more emphasis.
2.  There was not an appropriate word for Dynamis in Church Slavonic when the Liturgy was translated?   ???

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 10:50:59 PM »
I really don't understand singing the Trisagion 4.3 times in the Liturgy. Doesn't that kind of break up the supposed Trinitarian theme of it?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 10:52:37 PM »
I really don't understand singing the Trisagion 4.3 times in the Liturgy. Doesn't that kind of break up the supposed Trinitarian theme of it?

Where do you derive the value 4.3?  The Trisagion is sung exactly 3 times in Byzantine Orthodox Churches.  I've never attended a Liturgy in Church Slavonic....   ???

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 10:56:05 PM »
I really don't understand singing the Trisagion 4.3 times in the Liturgy. Doesn't that kind of break up the supposed Trinitarian theme of it?

Where do you derive the value 4.3?  The Trisagion is sung exactly 3 times in Byzantine Orthodox Churches.  I've never attended a Liturgy in Church Slavonic....   ???

It's sung three times, then the priest says "Dynamis" and it's sung once more. Therefore it is sung 4 times in the context of the hymn.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 11:01:38 PM »
It's sung three times, then the priest says "Dynamis" and it's sung once more. Therefore it is sung 4 times in the context of the hymn.

I have seen some Churches insert an extra singing of the Trisagion before the Dynamis.  In MD/DC/VA GOA Churches, the Trisagion is sung twice, followed by Dynamis, followed by one more singing of the Trisagion for a total of 3 times.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 11:25:25 PM »
I was just referencing the very texts that the original poster posted in the original post. They show a repetition of three times, then the Lesser Doxology is sung, then "Holy Immortal have mercy on us" is sung, and then the whole thing is sung one more time. That adds up to 4 whole times and one partial, which I attributed as a decimal of .3. That's where I got 4.3 from, right from the text.

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that it is sung three times. Every Orthodox church I've been to has sung the exact same form as what is found in the original post. The only time I have heard it just 3 times was at an Anglican church.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 11:26:36 PM »
It's sung three times, then the priest says "Dynamis" and it's sung once more. Therefore it is sung 4 times in the context of the hymn.

I have seen some Churches insert an extra singing of the Trisagion before the Dynamis.  In MD/DC/VA GOA Churches, the Trisagion is sung twice, followed by Dynamis, followed by one more singing of the Trisagion for a total of 3 times.

That's not really true.

I was Baptized in a GOAA church a little more than year ago where they did the 4.3 times.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 01:08:29 AM »
It's sung three times, then the priest says "Dynamis" and it's sung once more. Therefore it is sung 4 times in the context of the hymn.

I have seen some Churches insert an extra singing of the Trisagion before the Dynamis.  In MD/DC/VA GOA Churches, the Trisagion is sung twice, followed by Dynamis, followed by one more singing of the Trisagion for a total of 3 times.

That's not really true.

I was Baptized in a GOAA church a little more than year ago where they did the 4.3 times.

Were you baptized in a GOA Church in DC/MD/VA?  Like I said, some Churches sing the Trisagion four times.  Others sing the Trisagion three times.  What's the big deal?   ???

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 01:44:23 AM »
So I guess no one knows why the Greek style includes "Dynamis" and the Slavs do not?
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 02:18:17 AM »
It's sung three times, then the priest says "Dynamis" and it's sung once more. Therefore it is sung 4 times in the context of the hymn.

I have seen some Churches insert an extra singing of the Trisagion before the Dynamis.  In MD/DC/VA GOA Churches, the Trisagion is sung twice, followed by Dynamis, followed by one more singing of the Trisagion for a total of 3 times.

That's not really true.

I was Baptized in a GOAA church a little more than year ago where they did the 4.3 times.

Were you baptized in a GOA Church in DC/MD/VA?  Like I said, some Churches sing the Trisagion four times.  Others sing the Trisagion three times.  What's the big deal?   ???

Oops. I didn't really read your post properly. No, I was Baptized in a GOAA church in CA.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 06:39:56 AM »
I really don't understand singing the Trisagion 4.3 times in the Liturgy. Doesn't that kind of break up the supposed Trinitarian theme of it?
The Trisagion calls God by three names:
1. Holy God
2. Holy Mighty
3. Holy Immortal

It is first sung three times:
1. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
2. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
3. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

Then it is sung in three different ways:
1. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
2. Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
3. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

So the value is not 4.3 but 333, the number of the Trinity.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:40:29 AM by ytterbiumanalyst »
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Offline rwprof

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 08:20:28 AM »
So I guess no one knows why the Greek style includes "Dynamis" and the Slavs do not?

Actually, I've asked my priest this question, and he doesn't know. (And in my experience, it is the deacon, not the priest, who sings "Dynamis!")

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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 11:49:55 AM »
So I guess no one knows why the Greek style includes "Dynamis" and the Slavs do not?

Actually, I've asked my priest this question, and he doesn't know. (And in my experience, it is the deacon, not the priest, who sings "Dynamis!")



rwprof,

If there is a Deacon present, you are correct, the Deacon would proclaim "Dynamis." Unfortunately, many parish's do not have a Deacon, so the Priest therefore proclaims it.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 11:50:43 AM »
I really don't understand singing the Trisagion 4.3 times in the Liturgy. Doesn't that kind of break up the supposed Trinitarian theme of it?
The Trisagion calls God by three names:
1. Holy God
2. Holy Mighty
3. Holy Immortal

It is first sung three times:
1. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
2. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
3. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

Then it is sung in three different ways:
1. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
2. Holy Immortal have mercy on us.
3. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us.

So the value is not 4.3 but 333, the number of the Trinity.

See, it's stuff like this that makes me say "Our Liturgy is so cool!" :D
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline rwprof

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 02:43:15 PM »
So I guess no one knows why the Greek style includes "Dynamis" and the Slavs do not?

Actually, I've asked my priest this question, and he doesn't know. (And in my experience, it is the deacon, not the priest, who sings "Dynamis!")



rwprof,

If there is a Deacon present, you are correct, the Deacon would proclaim "Dynamis." Unfortunately, many parish's do not have a Deacon, so the Priest therefore proclaims it.

Ah, true. I'm afraid I've become used to having a surplus of deacons (and in a small parish).

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Offline Dn Patrick

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 03:21:34 PM »
Quote
Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 01:44:23 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I guess no one knows why the Greek style includes "Dynamis" and the Slavs do not?

The absence of dynamis in the Slavic tradition is a good indication that the exclamation was added by the Greeks relatively recently, after the Slavic tradition had become firmly established. Keeping up with Greek fashions has a painful history in Russia. Many pious Russians have chosen death over innovation.

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 07:43:17 PM »
Why does this "interruption" occur in the Byzantine tradition, but not the Slavic tradition?

How is it an interruption? This is exactly the kind of the thing that the deacon does throughout the entire Liturgy -- gives exhortations and commands. Such things were all the more necessary in earlier centuries, since, according to the Fathers, the services were very loud and boisterous, with thronging, unruly masses.

The absence of dynamis in the Slavic tradition is a good indication that the exclamation was added by the Greeks relatively recently, after the Slavic tradition had become firmly established.

 ??? It means nothing of the sort. There are 14th century musical manuscripts with settings for the dynamis during the Trisagion. One is attributed to St. John Koukouzelis, whose feast day is coming up. I believe the dynamis also appears in the 8th century Barberini 336. Regardless, either of these are well before "the Slavic tradition had become firmly established" (St. John himself was a Bulgarian/Macedonian/Albanian!).

Many pious Russians have chosen death over innovation.

And even more pious Russians had no problem with the reforms of Nikon.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 08:32:49 PM »
The Ruthenian Slavic Recension (older than the Nikonian) retains the Dynamis in Hierachal Liturgies.

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Offline Dn Patrick

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 09:24:23 PM »
Quote
pensateomnia said: And even more pious Russians had no problem with the reforms of Nikon.

They went along with them; that doesn't mean they had "no problem" with them. There was a lot of pressure put on simple peasants to give up the only ways they had ever known. I only mentioned the pain such changes cause to explain why the Russians do not now do everything the Greek way. You needn't take offense, but it seems almost everyone does on this website. I'm beginning to think it does more harm than good.


Offline Fr. George

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2009, 12:12:19 AM »
I would caution people against trying to shoehorn Trinitarian ties to all parts of the Liturgy.  The Trisagion is sung 4 times; there are 4 (or even 5) verses of the Antiphons on major feastdays, not 3; Christ is Risen is sung 10 times at the beginning of Liturgy during Bright Week.  When we try and force the model, then we get things like cutting verses, choirs doing the Trisagion only twice before "Glory," etc.
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2009, 01:01:15 AM »
Why does this "interruption" occur in the Byzantine tradition, but not the Slavic tradition?
How is it an interruption? This is exactly the kind of the thing that the deacon does throughout the entire Liturgy -- gives exhortations and commands. Such things were all the more necessary in earlier centuries, since, according to the Fathers, the services were very loud and boisterous, with thronging, unruly masses.

I apologize if I used the wrong word. I do not doubt the role of the Deacon or the Priest in the Liturgy. My only point was that it is included in the Byzantine tradition and it is not included in the Slavic tradition.

Was this part of the original Liturgy, but for some reason the Slavs dropped it, or was it added in the Byzantine tradition at a later date?

I have been blessed with the opportunity to have spent a large amount of time in various jurisdictions, and have noticed different liturgical traditions within the jurisdictions. Some traditions are limited to the parish, some to the jurisdiction.

I was just wondering what the origin of one of these particular traditions was.

That's all. :)
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Offline Dn Patrick

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2009, 07:34:59 AM »
Quote
I believe the dynamis also appears in the 8th century Barberini 336.

My understanding is that the notation in the rubrics began as a stage direction and only later came to be said aloud to remind the choir. The appearance of dynamis in Barberini and its absence in the Slavic tradition supports this. There could of course be another explanation, but this is the best I've heard.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 07:37:20 AM by Dn Patrick »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2009, 10:19:35 AM »
I'm looking at the text I have, and it goes from the "prayer for the entrance" (little entrance), "prayer for the trisagion," "prayer for the throne," and then "prayer for the litany."  So there is no indication of any directions or transitions, which frequently are omitted in the Barberini (as are the characteristic endings of prayers, which were assumed to be memorized by the clergyman).

Even looking at the text of the early-11th century Constantinopolitan Euchologion and Liturgikon I don't see the dynamis.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 10:52:52 AM by cleveland »
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline rwprof

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2009, 11:01:51 AM »
The Ruthenian Slavic Recension (older than the Nikonian) retains the Dynamis in Hierachal Liturgies.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Interesting. Only the Hierarchical Liturgy, and of so, why?

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2009, 07:17:43 PM »
I would think it is probably related to the fact that at Ruthenian Hierarchal Liturgies at the third repitition of the Trisagion the Hierarch chants it solo in Greek.
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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2009, 08:04:04 PM »
Interesting. Only the Hierarchical Liturgy, and of so, why?

Once a Bishop was visiting a Parish, when the choir has sung Trisagion to silently so he shouted at them to sung louder. Since that it has been done since every Hierarchical DL :)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2009, 08:48:36 PM »
Interesting. Only the Hierarchical Liturgy, and of so, why?

Once a Bishop was visiting a Parish, when the choir has sung Trisagion to silently so he shouted at them to sung louder. Since that it has been done since every Hierarchical DL :)

I love it! It's the Byzantine version of "Pump up the Jam!"  :D  :laugh:
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2009, 04:44:29 PM »
Was this part of the original Liturgy, but for some reason the Slavs dropped it, or was it added in the Byzantine tradition at a later date?

The earliest reference I know of to the dynamis is the setting done by St. John Koukouzelis, who lived as a monk on Mt. Athos some time in the late 13th century. He could have introduced the practice, or he could have been writing a setting for a long-established practice. Hard to say since this part of the Liturgy has been -- and is -- pretty dynamic. For example, even today it changes when there is a Bishop ("Lord, save the pious", etc). According to Paul Meyendorff, a century before the Nikonian reforms, the Russians started to do a double polychronion at this point for the Tsar and the Bishop if it was a Hierarchical Liturgy. So, there's a documented history of various things being inserted in and around the Trisagion by both Slavs and Constantinopolitans. It's really a natural time to do so, since the Trisagion used to be the start of the Liturgy (and still is in the more unaltered Vesperal Divine Liturgy). So, in the fifth and sixth century, this would be the time when everyone entered the Nave as part of the pre-Liturgy procession. Since the Emperor was obviously involved in this entrance -- and there were many, many people that had to stream in through the doors -- the settings for the Trisagion needed to be long and ornate (hence the need for a separate, long setting for the dynamis a la St. John Koukouzelis?). If I remember correctly, even after the Antiphons were added to the start of the Liturgy, the Emperor still wouldn't make his entrance until right before the Trisagion.
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2009, 08:17:27 PM »
Was this part of the original Liturgy, but for some reason the Slavs dropped it, or was it added in the Byzantine tradition at a later date?

The earliest reference I know of to the dynamis is the setting done by St. John Koukouzelis, who lived as a monk on Mt. Athos some time in the late 13th century. He could have introduced the practice, or he could have been writing a setting for a long-established practice. Hard to say since this part of the Liturgy has been -- and is -- pretty dynamic. For example, even today it changes when there is a Bishop ("Lord, save the pious", etc). According to Paul Meyendorff, a century before the Nikonian reforms, the Russians started to do a double polychronion at this point for the Tsar and the Bishop if it was a Hierarchical Liturgy. So, there's a documented history of various things being inserted in and around the Trisagion by both Slavs and Constantinopolitans. It's really a natural time to do so, since the Trisagion used to be the start of the Liturgy (and still is in the more unaltered Vesperal Divine Liturgy). So, in the fifth and sixth century, this would be the time when everyone entered the Nave as part of the pre-Liturgy procession. Since the Emperor was obviously involved in this entrance -- and there were many, many people that had to stream in through the doors -- the settings for the Trisagion needed to be long and ornate (hence the need for a separate, long setting for the dynamis a la St. John Koukouzelis?). If I remember correctly, even after the Antiphons were added to the start of the Liturgy, the Emperor still wouldn't make his entrance until right before the Trisagion.

Fascinating! Thank you for offering this explanation. I love learning about the Liturgy, as it is just so full of depth and meaning. If I could, I would just spend my days studying the Liturgy.

Thanks again!
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2009, 08:22:28 AM »
Even today, the Trisagion is chanted during some processions (e.g. during the funeral, as the casket is being moved) -- a liturgical echo of the Trisagion as processional/entrance hymn.
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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 07:38:11 PM »
Even today, the Trisagion is chanted during some processions (e.g. during the funeral, as the casket is being moved) -- a liturgical echo of the Trisagion as processional/entrance hymn.

In Slavic tradition, the Trisagion is also chanted in the slow, funereal melody during the procession around the church of the Plashchanitsa (the equivalent of the Greek Epitaphios) at the Matins of Holy Saturday (Great Friday evening). Utterly reverent and moving.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 07:38:43 PM by LBK »

Offline stashko

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2009, 10:46:24 PM »
Even today, the Trisagion is chanted during some processions (e.g. during the funeral, as the casket is being moved) -- a liturgical echo of the Trisagion as processional/entrance hymn.


Your absolutely correct ,,For both my mom and dad's funeral going in side the church and exiting the church , also processing to the burial site the thrice Holy was chanted non stop........
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Keble

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2009, 08:58:00 PM »
The trisagion is also the refrain of Media vita in morte sumus.

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2009, 09:52:20 PM »
The trisagion is also the refrain of Media vita in morte sumus.

English please?
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dynamis!
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2009, 10:32:45 PM »
The trisagion is also the refrain of Media vita in morte sumus.

English please?

In the middle of life, we are in death.


Media = in the midst
vita = life
morte = death
sumus = we are
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:33:24 PM by SolEX01 »