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Author Topic: I am an Ulster Scot, therefore I love...  (Read 3510 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

...and my wife is Korean-American.

Probably South Korean, you hate monger.  Wink

 Smiley Wink
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2012, 06:19:25 PM »

All of this exists because people, particularly the Scots Irish, didn't always care or know about their histories.  You're absolutely right about it not being limited to Orthodoxy though.  Are people intensely proud of their ancestry, or an imagined ancestry?  If so, why?  I'm just saying, a lot of these connections seem forced.

This is the case of all national identities- myth and all that. Any time Iranians talk about Cyrus and Darius or Russians invoke Prince Vladimir they're doing the same thing.

Agreed.  It's just what I saw going on here.  Well, that and Ulster Scots are troubled souls, so I had to argue stuff and cause friction.
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 08:26:46 PM »

Should anyone be interested and have a little over an hour to dedicate, here is a documentary based on the book that was mentioned in an earlier post:

Born Fighting- How the Ulster-Scots Shaped America narrated by the very author of the book of the same name, Senator James Webb (D-Virginia).

I've not watched the entire production yet, but I have read the book.  Although it was engaging and quite fascinating, at times Mr. Webb seemed to take a few liberties.  Also, there were times when I wondered if I was reading a book about the Scots-Irish or the effects of the War Between the States.  Those parts, while interesting, seemed to detract from the subject.  A different book, and in some ways more balanced, is The Scotch-Irish: A Social History by James G. Leyburn.  At any rate, I hope you enjoy the documentary.

I've also included a shorter BBC documentary entitled Dawn of the Ulster Scots.

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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2012, 01:10:29 AM »

Should anyone be interested and have a little over an hour to dedicate, here is a documentary based on the book that was mentioned in an earlier post:

Born Fighting- How the Ulster-Scots Shaped America narrated by the very author of the book of the same name, Senator James Webb (D-Virginia).

I've not watched the entire production yet, but I have read the book.  Although it was engaging and quite fascinating, at times Mr. Webb seemed to take a few liberties.  Also, there were times when I wondered if I was reading a book about the Scots-Irish or the effects of the War Between the States.  Those parts, while interesting, seemed to detract from the subject.  A different book, and in some ways more balanced, is The Scotch-Irish: A Social History by James G. Leyburn.  At any rate, I hope you enjoy the documentary.

I've also included a shorter BBC documentary entitled Dawn of the Ulster Scots.



I saw the documentary by Sen. Webb and I thought that it was pretty interesting. I might still have it on my DVR... perhaps I'll watch it again when I get home.
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2012, 01:25:29 AM »

Genuine question and sorry to keep popping up on here, but how can the Ulster-Scots have a 4,000 history? 

They weren't Ulster-Scots until they got to Ulster.  Part of what Sen. Webb argues is that it's their specific history (border Scots, transplanted to N Ireland, and then elsewhere, along with associated conflicts) that made them distinct.  If their history is tied closely with previously just being Scots, and before that Irish, then what's the point of distinguishing any of it?  Make sense? 

It's like saying "4,000 years of Lebanese American History"

I know I'm being too picky.
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« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2013, 02:43:45 PM »

"The people of Appalachia, with whom we at the monastery share a home in West Virginia, are a people who have been Protestant for many generations past.
....
The Scotch-Irish pioneers who settled in the deep hollows and rugged hills of the Appalachian Mountains carried on with many traditions that they preserved from the Old World.
....
As a Russian Orthodox monastery which observes the Julian, or “old,” calendar, we were surprised to learn about Appalachian “Old Christmas,” which is a most solemn and reverent time for families living in the mountains. The initial change-over from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar by the British Empire and the American colonies in 1752 caused a difference of eleven days. Thus, the date of “new” Christmas on December 25th was eleven days ahead of “old” Christmas, which fell (at that time) on January 5th. Some Protestants refused to honor the new calendar because it was decreed by the Pope, so their celebration of Christmas remained on the Julian calendar – which now falls on January 7. In the Appalachian Mountains, the celebration of Old Christmas remained until about World War I. Though they might also observe “new” Christmas on December 25th, the festivities were very different. December 25th was marked with revelry and parties and visiting, but January 6th was primarily a reverent family observance."
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« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2013, 03:19:22 PM »

"The people of Appalachia, with whom we at the monastery share a home in West Virginia, are a people who have been Protestant for many generations past.
....
The Scotch-Irish pioneers who settled in the deep hollows and rugged hills of the Appalachian Mountains carried on with many traditions that they preserved from the Old World.
....
As a Russian Orthodox monastery which observes the Julian, or “old,” calendar, we were surprised to learn about Appalachian “Old Christmas,” which is a most solemn and reverent time for families living in the mountains. The initial change-over from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar by the British Empire and the American colonies in 1752 caused a difference of eleven days. Thus, the date of “new” Christmas on December 25th was eleven days ahead of “old” Christmas, which fell (at that time) on January 5th. Some Protestants refused to honor the new calendar because it was decreed by the Pope, so their celebration of Christmas remained on the Julian calendar – which now falls on January 7. In the Appalachian Mountains, the celebration of Old Christmas remained until about World War I. Though they might also observe “new” Christmas on December 25th, the festivities were very different. December 25th was marked with revelry and parties and visiting, but January 6th was primarily a reverent family observance."

Interesting, I never knew that those Appalachian Americans kept some of the Old traditions. I would be interested in learning more when time permits.

On an interesting side note, one of my old Army buddies told me about a documentary done a while back in which they were going over some of the old Irish/Scottish songs that have verses that have been missing (for lack of a better term) for many years. They apparently looked at the same region of the Appalachian Mountains and found that those songs had remained in full in that area. ISTM that I may have posted that information somewhere around here before, but my memory fails me.
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« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2013, 04:40:47 PM »

...nothing about the Queen.  Smiley



Was this meant to be ironic in any way?

At least in Northern Ireland today, the Scots heritage is associated with (Presbyterian) Protestantism, English or Scots language (definitely not Gaelic, which is associated with Irish republicanism and Catholics), and loyalty to the UK.

I know that from across the Atlantic, these distinctions may start to get fuzzy, and Irish and Scottish heritage kind of blend into an indistinct, romanticized Celtic fantasy image, but just FYI it may strike some Ulster Scots as odd to represent their heritage with a Sinn Fein poster.
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« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2013, 04:46:26 PM »

...nothing about the Queen.  Smiley



Was this meant to be ironic in any way?

At least in Northern Ireland today, the Scots heritage is associated with (Presbyterian) Protestantism, English or Scots language (definitely not Gaelic, which is associated with Irish republicanism and Catholics), and loyalty to the UK.

I know that from across the Atlantic, these distinctions may start to get fuzzy, and Irish and Scottish heritage kind of blend into an indistinct, romanticized Celtic fantasy image, but just FYI it may strike some Ulster Scots as odd to represent their heritage with a Sinn Fein poster.

I was thinking the same thing. On the other hand, if you go far enough back (say, 1798) Ulster Scots participated in republican Irish struggles and sectarianism had not yet set in.
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« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2013, 04:48:32 PM »

I will add that the association of Ulster Scots Protestants with loyalism dates only from the late 19th century, when Irish nationalism was taken over by Catholics. In the 18th century, many Irish Protestants felt persecuted by the British Crown, since their Presbyterian faith was not officially tolerated outside of Scotland, one reason why so many emigrated to America and later supported the rebellion. Not only in America, but also in Ireland, where the leader of the 1798 Irish uprising, Wolfe Tone, was a Protestant.

Of course, the Ulster Scots phenomenon was in origin a deliberate policy of subjugating Irish Catholics by planting Protestant settlers from Lowland Scotland and the Borders. Ulster Scots loyalists today naturally place a lot of emphasis on this early history, and less on the 18th century.

Thanks Iconodule for anticipating this. Smiley

Also, there are two kinds of Irish Protestants: the true Ulster Scots, who inhabit the North and are Presbyterians, and the Anglo-Irish, who are more evenly distributed throughout the island and are mostly a type of Episcopalian/Anglican.
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« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2013, 04:57:04 PM »

In any case I'm guessing the number of historic Ulster Scot Sinn Fein supporters to be <1%
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« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2013, 05:31:23 PM »

Genuine question and sorry to keep popping up on here, but how can the Ulster-Scots have a 4,000 history? 

They weren't Ulster-Scots until they got to Ulster.  Part of what Sen. Webb argues is that it's their specific history (border Scots, transplanted to N Ireland, and then elsewhere, along with associated conflicts) that made them distinct.  If their history is tied closely with previously just being Scots, and before that Irish, then what's the point of distinguishing any of it?  Make sense? 

It's like saying "4,000 years of Lebanese American History"

I know I'm being too picky.

 Good point.  I'm not sure where they came up with 4,000 years.
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« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2013, 05:33:09 PM »

...nothing about the Queen.  Smiley



Was this meant to be ironic in any way?

 Nah, just trolling back then. 
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« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2013, 05:37:41 PM »



Also, there are two kinds of Irish Protestants: the true Ulster Scots, who inhabit the North and are Presbyterians, and the Anglo-Irish, who are more evenly distributed throughout the island and are mostly a type of Episcopalian/Anglican.

 Just finished a book a while back the in-laws got me about Patrick Cleburne.  He was from County Cork and he was an Anglican.  He wouldn't have been called a Scots-Irish.
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« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2013, 06:59:37 PM »

Sorry, but my understanding is that Lowlanders never spake the Gaelic. Indeed the good auld BBC not long ago made this point in their excellent History of Scotland series, with the country divided and only painfully evolving into a nation. This fits in with the history of these Isles, as I learnt them.

The supplanting of Scots and English settlers accompanied by a deliberate and cruel displacement of the native Irish resulted in a largely Presbyterian population that identified and to this day identifies more readily with Scotland than their Irish neighbours. An Ulster Protestant friend of mine listened to some traditional Irish CDs I had, but didn't like them because they were too Irish.

That non-Anglican Protestants and Catholics both resisted discrimination by the Crown is conveniently forgotten by the revisionist history of today's 'Ulster loyalists'. But then why let facts get in the way of mythology.

Prior to the reign of Elizabeth 1, Norman incomers assimilated and had a marked tendency to become more Gaelic than their Irish neighbours. Queen Elizabeth put an end to that.

My mother's memories of Belfast was of parks where the swings were locked on a Sunday. Mine too. A place were people asked your name, and the name of your school in order to identify whether you were one of 'them' or one of 'us'. A Jew or Orthodox Christian might strain their notion of a world with only two tribes.
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« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2014, 03:16:55 PM »

Cool! Fellow Scots!

My grandfather's ancestors are Morrisons from the Isle of Lewis. I hear it is one of the last places on earth where you can still hear Gaelic spoken. My grandmother is a Campbell. My other grandpa is a Davidson.
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« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2014, 04:10:14 PM »

My Irish heritage comes from the Anglo-Saxons living in Munster. Too bad this does not stop my grandfather from wanting me to learn Irish. So unfortunate that I cannot seem to learn foreign languages well :/
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« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2014, 05:18:43 PM »

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin
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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2014, 06:48:52 PM »

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin

Reminds me...I have a beautiful bottle of whiskey waiting for me. Though, I am always looking for better whiskey Wink
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2014, 06:55:17 PM »

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin

Reminds me...I have a beautiful bottle of whiskey waiting for me. Though, I am always looking for better whiskey Wink


I'm a Tennessee whiskey man myself.  I have a bottle of Jack Daniels Single Barrel that I'm working on and George Dickel No. 12.  Daniels was Welsh and Scotch-Irish;  Dickel, I'm not sure.  His stuff is grand, though.

I do have a bottle of Dimple Pinch blended Scotch scurried away.  I prefer Chivas, though.
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2014, 07:10:20 PM »

My Dad's side of the family is made up of Catholic Ulstermen (one branch from Newry and one from Donegal) who migrated to the Lowlands of Scotland (Paisley and Johnstone) in the 1900's for work in the shipyards. I guess that makes me everyone here's reverse cousin  Grin.

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin

Reminds me...I have a beautiful bottle of whiskey waiting for me. Though, I am always looking for better whiskey Wink


I'm a Tennessee whiskey man myself.  I have a bottle of Jack Daniels Single Barrel that I'm working on and George Dickel No. 12.  Daniels was Welsh and Scotch-Irish;  Dickel, I'm not sure.  His stuff is grand, though.

I do have a bottle of Dimple Pinch blended Scotch scurried away.  I prefer Chivas, though.

Does nobody have love for Bushmill's fine Irish whiskey?
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2014, 09:12:53 PM »

My Dad's side of the family is made up of Catholic Ulstermen (one branch from Newry and one from Donegal) who migrated to the Lowlands of Scotland (Paisley and Johnstone) in the 1900's for work in the shipyards. I guess that makes me everyone here's reverse cousin  Grin.

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin

Reminds me...I have a beautiful bottle of whiskey waiting for me. Though, I am always looking for better whiskey Wink


I'm a Tennessee whiskey man myself.  I have a bottle of Jack Daniels Single Barrel that I'm working on and George Dickel No. 12.  Daniels was Welsh and Scotch-Irish;  Dickel, I'm not sure.  His stuff is grand, though.

I do have a bottle of Dimple Pinch blended Scotch scurried away.  I prefer Chivas, though.

Does nobody have love for Bushmill's fine Irish whiskey?

Yes! Though, lately I have been enjoying Two Gingers, the "Last Independent Distillery in Ireland." It has a sweeter finish to it.

EDIT: The phrase in quotations is on the bottle, not my words.
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« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2014, 09:20:54 PM »

It's pretty depressing what's happened with Irish distilleries. Oh well, we still have the best songs about whiskey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVGUs9nQGaw
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« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2014, 10:04:31 PM »

It's pretty depressing what's happened with Irish distilleries. Oh well, we still have the best songs about whiskey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVGUs9nQGaw

This is a great song! I am going to get that glass full now! Thank you Iconodule! I do not care how multiculturalist or globalist you are Wink
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« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2014, 10:42:20 PM »

Sorry, but my understanding is that Lowlanders never spake the Gaelic. Indeed the good auld BBC not long ago made this point in their excellent History of Scotland series, with the country divided and only painfully evolving into a nation. This fits in with the history of these Isles, as I learnt them.

The supplanting of Scots and English settlers accompanied by a deliberate and cruel displacement of the native Irish resulted in a largely Presbyterian population that identified and to this day identifies more readily with Scotland than their Irish neighbours. An Ulster Protestant friend of mine listened to some traditional Irish CDs I had, but didn't like them because they were too Irish.

That non-Anglican Protestants and Catholics both resisted discrimination by the Crown is conveniently forgotten by the revisionist history of today's 'Ulster loyalists'. But then why let facts get in the way of mythology.

Prior to the reign of Elizabeth 1, Norman incomers assimilated and had a marked tendency to become more Gaelic than their Irish neighbours. Queen Elizabeth put an end to that.

My mother's memories of Belfast was of parks where the swings were locked on a Sunday. Mine too. A place were people asked your name, and the name of your school in order to identify whether you were one of 'them' or one of 'us'. A Jew or Orthodox Christian might strain their notion of a world with only two tribes.

 True, Ulster Scots don't, and AFAIK, never did speak Gaelic.  Supposedly, they speak Lallans, the Scots word for "Lowlands".
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« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2014, 10:43:15 PM »

Cool! Fellow Scots!

 Not, quite.  There's a difference between Scots and Ulster-Scots.
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« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2014, 10:44:42 PM »

WHISKEY!

Lord, have mercy; this whole thread and no one has mentioned the distillation know-how brought over to Appalachia.  Moonshining wouldn't have been if them Scotch-Irish ain't come to the mountains.

Jimmy crack corn and I don't care... Grin

 Now we're on track for rowdiness.  Wink
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« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2014, 10:46:32 PM »

..fierce love for independence, privacy and to be left the heck alone!!
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