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« on: November 09, 2002, 04:54:53 PM »

Ex-Roman Catholic priest to lead local Orthodox flock

FLINT
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION

Saturday, November 09, 2002
By George Jaksa
JOURNAL RELIGION WRITER

BURTON - The Rev. David J. Lis was among the Roman Catholics displeased
with some of the changes instituted by the church after the 1962-65 Second
Vatican Council.

As a priest, Lis lived with the changes daily. But by 1986, he had had
enough and left the active ministry.

"The church had gone in a different direction since Vatican II," he said.
"I could no longer with a full heart support and represent the new
direction the church has gone through."

After 14 years in private business, Lis returned to the active ministry in
2000 as a priest in the Orthodox Church in America.

He was assigned to St. John the Baptist Church in Black Lick, Pa., and on
Oct. 1 became rector of St. Nicholas Orthodox Church in Burton.

Born in Toledo, Ohio, in 1950, Lis was ordained as a Catholic priest in
1980. He was in parish work and was a member of the archdiocesan tribunal
before leaving the ministry.

Living as a Catholic layman, Lis worked for businesses in Columbus, Ohio;
Washington, D.C.; and Ferndale after moving back to Toledo.

"In 1997, I became more and more saddened with what was happening in the
church and wanted to get reconnected," Lis said.

At the invitation of the Rev. Raphael Biernacki, who came from Lis' Toledo
neighborhood and is a former pastor of St. Nicholas, Lis attended a Divine
Liturgy at St. George Cathedral in Toledo.

He began attending Orthodox services while working with Biernacki and, in
January 2000, was vested as an ordained priest in the Orthodox Church in
America.

"One stipulation was that I would recognize my Roman Catholic orders to
remain celibate, and I had no problem with that," said Lis, who said he
likes the stability of the Orthodox church.

"The Orthodox church hasn't changed its teachings since 780 A.D. after
seven church councils," Lis said. "I compare the Orthodox and Roman church
to the army and Marines in the military, with the Orthodox taking the
tougher road as Marines."

The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches separated in 1054.

"We need to heal the schism," Lis said.

Lis moved from a 35-household parish in Black Lick, about 40 miles east of
Pittsburgh, to one of the largest in the Orthodox Church in America with
220 households.

It's one of four Orthodox churches in Genesee County which include
Antiochian and Greek Orthodox churches along with a new one, St. Mary
Magdalene Orthodox Church, founded in July by Lis' predecessor, the Rev.
Paul Jannakos.

Jannakos holds services temporarily in the Knights of Columbus Hall at St.
John Roman Catholic Church in Fenton, serving Orthodox followers in
southern Genesee County and Livingston County.
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2002, 05:26:26 PM »

God Bless him a lot!

This is the new kind of priests we need, and an example of a healthy conversion, a conversion without anger or rancor.

It is time for the Orthodox Church to be an option for un-churched people, I am sure there are lots of good christians who have been alienated by the spirit of liberalism, the never ending innovation and the conduct of uncharitable modernists. I am convinced that pastoral activities are needed, the Churfch of Jesus Christ, the early Church is no longer an ethnic Church, it is the Church of the future!
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2002, 09:20:34 PM »



  Great.  We have a priest that compares Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism to branches of the military!!  Talk about reductionism!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad


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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2002, 01:50:01 AM »

bah that was a joke, I hope it's a joke, the important thing is the message
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2002, 04:44:20 PM »

Personally, I think the analogy hits the nail on the head.

I've been there and done that.

JoeS




  Great.  We have a priest that compares Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism to branches of the military!!  Talk about reductionism!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad



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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2002, 01:35:04 AM »

I would compare Traditional Orthodoxy with the Guards. Let's hope that unchurched people will find Traditional Orthodoxy rather than some of the watered-down versions that exist in the west. After a pilgrimage to Russia, I would hope that the spiritual climate there could be established here.  I know this invites a new thread and some 'lively' discussion!

Yours in Christ,
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2002, 11:29:50 AM »

I can relate to and like this conversion story too.
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2002, 01:00:29 PM »

I would compare Traditional Orthodoxy with the Guards. Let's hope that unchurched people will find Traditional Orthodoxy rather than some of the watered-down versions that exist in the west. After a pilgrimage to Russia, I would hope that the spiritual climate there could be established here.  I know this invites a new thread and some 'lively' discussion!

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Guards' regiments?

Red or White? Smiley

rtss
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2002, 07:36:59 PM »

Quote
"The church had gone in a different direction since Vatican II," he said.
"I could no longer with a full heart support and represent the new
direction the church has gone through."

Sounds like he was dumbstruck by the theologocal heresies in the Roman Church and realized that the Orthodox Church was the One True Apostolic Church and that there could be no other.


Quote
"One stipulation was that I would recognize my Roman Catholic orders to remain celibate, and I had no problem with that," said Lis, who said he likes the stability of the Orthodox church.

Recognize Roman Catholic orders? I never thought of the Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church as Roman Catholic Orders.

Quote
"The Orthodox church hasn't changed its teachings since 780 A.D. after seven church councils," Lis said.

I never knew the Orthodox changed their teachings before 780 A.D., what kind of Orthodoxy is this?

Quote
"I compare the Orthodox and Roman church to the army and Marines in the military, with the Orthodox taking the
tougher road as Marines."

This sounds like the two-lung idea. If this is not the branch theory what is?


Quote
The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches separated in 1054.

I thought the Latins fell away from the Church long before 1054.


Quote
"We need to heal the schism," Lis said.

Well said. We also need to have them renounce their heresies, circle file 25 so-called "ecumenical" councils, reorientate, catechize, and baptize over a billion people. Trivial point I know.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2002, 08:51:54 PM »

"The church had gone in a different direction since Vatican II, I could no longer with a full heart support and represent the new direction the church has gone through."
 
(R) "Sounds like he was dumbstruck by the theologocal heresies in the Roman Church and realized that the Orthodox Church was the One True Apostolic Church and that there could be no other."

Vatican II is the best example to prove that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Jesus Christ and that the theological inconsistence of the Latin Church has led them to a never ending innovation represented by Vatican II, the Novus Ordo religion and the current disaster in the Western Church. However it is easier to heal our wounds and to convince people through love and christian actitude instead of joining the American Protestant culture blaming and accusing the Roman Church for everything.


"I never knew the Orthodox changed their teachings before 780 A.D., what kind of Orthodoxy is this?"

He didnt mean it has changed, I guess he meant that after the 7th Ecumenical Council the fullness of the Christian doctrine was truly developped and there was no need to change as the latin's did.

"This sounds like the two-lung idea. If this is not the branch theory what is?"

Maybe it is, but denying that the Universal Church has always been one Church and that East and West were one Church before the schism (s) is also a false interpretation. The Church is always the Church.

"I thought the Latins fell away from the Church long before 1054."

Sure they did, they had introduced unacceptable innovations in faith and doctrine, and they continue to incert new innovations, specially after Vatican II which is the proof of what canot be accepted, but Communion was "officially" broken in 1054 thanks to the unfortunate intervention of an ignorant cardinal who had no authority at all over the Eastern Church, the political interests and the individual ambitions of Popes, Emperors and Patriarchs.

"Well said. We also need to have them renounce their heresies, circle file 25 so-called "ecumenical" councils, reorientate, catechize, and baptize over a billion people. Trivial point I know."

If I'm not mistaken the Roman Church does not say that the other 25"Ecumenical Councils" are as important as the other 7 Ecumeinical Councils of the Undivided Church. If full communion is established again they won't have any trouble in acknowledging these "councils" as local councils and that's what they are, local councils.

It will sure be important to cathechize and re-orientate millions of Orthodox and Catholics who have fallen away from the doctrines of the Church (specially about issues of personal morality; contraception, divorce and homosexuality) and many of them who have never been cathechized.

As for baptism: "I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of Sins."

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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2002, 11:58:28 AM »

wonderful!  This Priest has struck the nail on the head for the main reason I plan to become Orthodox.  

Question.  It said in the article that the Priest was holding Divine Liturgy at a KofC Hall.  I am somewhat surprised by this as the Knights are full square in support of Rome (no matter what the heresy of the week is).  Why are they all of a sudden allowing Orthodox Services to be held at one of their facilities.

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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2002, 12:11:38 PM »

Joe, a word to the wise: don't announce online any plans to change church affiliation until after the fact, lest you have to eat your words later. Are you committing to the Byzantine Rite or do you just want to prove something to your real home, the Roman Rite? (I too hold that the Orthodox tradition can help influence other rites and benefit the apostolic churches as a whole, but have committed to this rite.)

I wondered about the canonicity of this too - an ex-Catholic holding services on Catholic property. Perhaps he can get away with it because he isn't using a church.
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2002, 01:17:48 PM »

I wondered about the canonicity of this too - an ex-Catholic holding services on Catholic property. Perhaps he can get away with it because he isn't using a church.

Not so unusual.  In places where the Orthodox do not have a church of their own, they rent or borrow facilities wherever they can.  

In Montreal, the parish of the Sign of the Theotokos Orthodox Church (OCA) uses the basement of either an Anglican or RC church in the Anglo quarter--it's been doing this for years.  In Bloomington, IN, the Orthodox Divine Liturgy is sometimes served on the very altar of a RC church which has generously offered its facilities after the RC's have completed their Mass schedule.

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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2002, 01:45:19 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Catholic canon law now says they can loan their churches to any church, Orthodox or Protestant.

The issue here is an ex-Catholic priest is doing services on Catholic property.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I don't think the Orthodox authorities would allow a priest who switched teams to serve on parish grounds.
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2002, 01:56:57 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Catholic canon law now says they can loan their churches to any church, Orthodox or Protestant.

The issue here is an ex-Catholic priest is doing services on Catholic property.

If the shoe were on the other foot, I don't think the Orthodox authorities would allow a priest who switched teams to serve on parish grounds.

Actually, Serge, as you know, the Orthodox do not so easily lend their consecrated temples to the heterodox (or a suspended or deposed priest) under *any* circumstances.  But a parish hall? I don't know: it's not a church.  Neither is a K of C hall.  It would probably be determined on a case-by-case basis by the Orthodox.  Maybe not so by the Catholics.

But we Orthodox do not refuse facilities--Catholic or Protestant-- offered or rented to us when we do not have any of our own in a particular locality, do we?  I've sometimes thought we were "one-way" in this regard, i.e., "ecumenical" when it's convenient for *us*.  I know of ROCOR missions, e.g., that rent or borrow Episcopal or Catholic houses of worship or halls for their services before they can build their own.  But I've never heard of a ROCOR (or other Orthodox) parish making its facilities available for worship by a churchless (perhaps burned out?) Protestant or RC congregation.  In Norwichtown, CT, a Protestant congregation and a ROCOR mission parish share the same rented Grange Hall building for their worship (they even make use of the same kitchen)!  How ecumenical is that!   Wink

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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2002, 07:01:21 PM »

(I too hold that the Orthodox tradition can help influence other rites and benefit the apostolic churches as a whole, but have committed to this rite.)

Well Serge, the cats out of the bag, this certainly puts to rest any further misunderstanding we might have.

You consider your new-calendarist organization just another “rite” of “the other apostolic churches”. You have effectively explained why, to you, I am not Orthodox. Given that you have accepted relativist pseudo-orthodoxy, it must indeed seem like I am not what you are.

And of course it should be no shock to you what-so-ever that the local new-calendarists in my area have started communing Latins.

Care to add any comments?
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2002, 07:30:28 PM »

<snip, snip>
And of course it should be no shock to you what-so-ever that the local new-calendarists in my area have started communing Latins.

OoD, can you document that, i.e., that the local New Calendarists "in your area" have started communing Latins?  Because that's definitely not the case in my immediate area, where the GOA churches are in the majority and there is only 1 OCA church, all on the New Calendar (there is one tiny ROCOR church on the Old Calendar).  There were rumors to the effect that the former local GOA cathedral dean had been communing a Roman Catholic nun "in mufti," i.e., not wearing a traditional habit, but I think that's all it ever was: an unsubstantiated rumor perpetrated by trouble-makers from a schismatic Greek Old-Calendarist jurisdiction (HOCNA--"the Panteleimonites") that have unsuccessfully tried to make inroads in this area.

If you can indeed substantiate the "fact" that an Orthodox priest (or two) in your area is indeed communing heterodox Latins, don't you think it is your duty to bring this matter to the attention of the priest's ruling bishop?  I know of no canonical Orthodox jurisdiction, Revised Julian or Old Calendarist, that has approved the practice of communing the heterodox, be they Latins or any other.

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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2002, 08:12:20 PM »

but I think that's all it ever was: an unsubstantiated rumor perpetrated by trouble-makers from a schismatic Greek Old-Calendarist jurisdiction (HOCNA) that have unsuccessfully tried to make inroads in this area.


Hypo,

You say: "But I think..." and then immediately begin to say with certainty that it was "...an unsubstantiated rumor perpetrated by trouble-makers from a schismatic Greek Old-Calendarist jurisdiction"

You are asking me to "document" my comment; Would it be to much for me to ask you to document what you at first didn't seem so sure of, that is, the Greek "Old Calendarists" are spreading rumors and if so, they are “unsubstantiated”?

Somehow I sense that I could have a streaming video feed of the actual event satellite linked to a wall of 53” wide screen plasma TV’s with dual battery backups and dolby surround sound, sit you down with some popcorn, play the video, and the first thing you would say is, “well, how do I know the hands of the Latins joined together to symbolize prayert approaching the chalice was not doctored?”, to which I would respond, you will never know because you don’t want to see.

It’s a good thing Serge’s unorthodox confession is now documented lest I should be accused of “spreading unsubstantiated rumors” too.
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2002, 08:30:37 PM »

but I think that's all it ever was: an unsubstantiated rumor perpetrated by trouble-makers from a schismatic Greek Old-Calendarist jurisdiction (HOCNA) that have unsuccessfully tried to make inroads in this area.


Hypo,

You say: "But I think..." and then immediately begin to say with certainty that it was "...an unsubstantiated rumor perpetrated by trouble-makers from a schismatic Greek Old-Calendarist jurisdiction"

<snip> I *never* said *with certainty!*  I said, "I think!

Quote
Somehow I sense that I could have a streaming video feed of the actual event satellite linked to a wall of 53” wide screen plasma TV’s with dual battery backups and dolby surround sound, sit you down with some popcorn, play the video, and the first thing you would say is, “well, how do I know the hands of the Latins joined together to symbolize prayert approaching the chalice was not doctored?”, to which I would respond, you will never know because you don’t want to see.

It’s a good thing Serge’s unorthodox confession is now documented lest I should be accused of “spreading unsubstantiated rumors” too.

I am open-minded, OoD.   More than you, * I think. *  Still, have you yourself actually seen what you're reporting here about the communing of Latins, or are you relying on hearsay?  I didn't say it wasn't possible.  I said I've *never* seen it happening in my area, and once again, I must remind you that the bishops of *no* canonical Orthodox jurisdiction have approved or given their blessing to such an un-Orthodox practice.  If you are certain this is happening and you are really concerned, don't you think it is your duty as an Orthodox Christian to bring the matter to the attention of the ruling bishop(s) of the priests who are allegedly committing such a serious infraction of the Church's canons for resolution?

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2002, 09:26:02 PM »

Whether you are being open-minded or not I suppose is none of my business, I apologize for the snide remark.

While I agree with your statement that no syncretist “bishop” would approve of such a thing officially, I believe if it was officially reported, many (not all) would “reprimand” the “priest” with a smirk. After all, a priest simply does not do something like this so openly unless there was a certain level of comfort.

This was told to us by a new-calendarist who comes to our Church once in awhile. It was a service last week in which many Latins were in attendance, it may have been a baptism. When it came time to approach the cup, as with most GOA parish’s, everybody approached, and many were holding their hands together as if in prayer as I understand the Latins do (is this true?).

Now I have never known the people at my Church to be overly concerned about what the new-calendarists are doing lately, we are concerned with our salvation and spiritual life. I would not say something like this if I was not confident it was true.

And to answer your question, I feel no more obligation to report this incident than I would of a similar situation in a Latin ceremony. They are cut off and can do as they please.

btw, I sympathize with the situation you explained in your other post. I cannot change my suggestion to you, except I forgot to mention the most imortant element. Pray.

God Bless!
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2002, 08:36:55 AM »

<snip>
While I agree with your statement that no syncretist “bishop” would approve of such a thing officially, I believe if it was officially reported, many (not all) would “reprimand” the “priest” with a smirk. After all, a priest simply does not do something like this so openly unless there was a certain level of comfort.

And what makes you so certain of this?  You still haven't reported seeing it with "your own eyes."  *Syncretist "bishop."*Huh  And this coming from someone who belongs to an extremist schismatic sect no longer part of the Church!  Is this b*** what is being taught in your sect?  For shame, OoD!    

Quote
This was told to us by a new-calendarist who comes to our Church once in awhile. It was a service last week in which many Latins were in attendance, it may have been a baptism. When it came time to approach the cup, as with most GOA parish’s, everybody approached, and many were holding their hands together as if in prayer as I understand the Latins do (is this true?).

I think you'd find members of *some* GOA parishes hold hands, but, again, I haven't seen it.  You were told this by a New Calendarist "who comes to (your) church ONCE IN A WHILE, etc."  IOW: **HEARSAY!**  

Quote
I would not say something like this if I was not confident it was true.

Yeah, right.

Quote
And to answer your question, I feel no more obligation to report this incident than I would of a similar situation in a Latin ceremony. They are cut off and can do as they please.

You have this backwards, OoD.  It is your extremist sect which has cut itself off from the Church.  The situation is not at all like that of a Latin ceremony.  At least not yet.  You'd have to check with the Ecumenical Patriarch and Archbishop Demetrios on that one!   Wink  
God bless!

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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2002, 12:57:12 PM »

Well put, Hypo-Ortho.

I know of no Eastern Orthodox Church that officially allows non-Orthodox to commune. Two exceptions in practice I can think of: 1) Bishop Kallistos (Ware), who probably gets no respect from OoD but is an Orthodox bishop, writes in later editions of The Orthodox Church that some Orthodox bishops will quietly let priests commune isolated non-Orthodox out of oikonomia, which is a far cry from indiscriminately communing non-Orthodox guests at a service, and 2) in the Middle East, layfolk in the Greek Orthodox and Melkite Catholic church intercommune all the time.

I think OoD wanted a reaction from me. Here it is.

You sound like you're threatening me with 'documenting' my 'unorthodox confession'. First, even if I am wrong I have the consolation of 'not being important enough to be a heretic'. Second, my opinions of the churches I consider apostolic are my opinions - nowhere do I say they are Orthodox dogma. And they are allowable as Orthodox opinion. So I am not misrepresenting Eastern Orthodoxy. Considering that a leader in ROCOR (specifically, Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky], their founding first hierarch) once said Anglicanism's clergy could be received economically under exactly the right circumstances (which never has happened and probably never will), certainly the Orientals, Assyrians and NTS the Catholic Church are well within the apostolic family.

Frankly, OoD, I find your ecclesiology incredibly claustrophobic and lacking in charity and catholicity. I can't make myself believe the Church on earth, founded by Christ, would be reduced to some tiny squabbling sects. I am well within the vast orthodox, apostolic tradition. Crabbed ecclesiology like yours gives Eastern Orthodoxy, and Western converts to same, a bad name. (But as Hypo-Ortho has pointed out, the group you belong to isn't Orthodox.)
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2002, 01:05:45 PM »

[1) Bishop Kallistos (Ware), who probably gets no respect from OoD but is an Orthodox bishop, writes in later editions of The Orthodox Church that some Orthodox bishops will quietly let priests commune isolated non-Orthodox out of oikonomia, which is a far cry from indiscriminately communing non-Orthodox guests at a service, ]

Exactly!  During the repressive years of communism in remote areas of the former Soviet Union where there were small pockets of Roman Catholics that were isolated from both church and priests, the Russian Orthodox Church would commune them out of economia.

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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2002, 01:20:18 PM »

Thanks, Orthodoc.

Actually, the brief period when the MP communed Catholics under the conditions you describe is a whole other controversial kettle of fish. In a way it was a sign of Communist approval of the Catholic Church seemingly muting its fierce anti-Communism around the time of Vatican II (note I didn't say it definitely did - I wrote seemingly). AFAIK the MP stopped doing this a long time ago, certainly since the end of the USSR.

Then there is the other situation in far southwestern Ukraine (a small minority of Ukraine as a whole) when, in late Soviet times, many people nominally in the MP were of Ukrainian Catholic background and I think supplied many (most?) of the ordinands to the MP seminaries. And I understand at least some people in the MP knew what their real allegiance was. These ordinands and congregations were the ones who, as soon as the Soviet ban was lifted, went back to what they were before 1946 - Ukrainian Catholic.

AFAIK no Orthodox group in the US communes non-Orthodox routinely like the Greek Orthodox of Antioch do with the Melkites in the Middle East.
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2002, 05:03:15 PM »

C'mon Joe:

I say this with respect. I don't think you really want to become Orthodox. I see how you love the venberable Latin Tradition and the true traditions of the Roman Church and its theology and its ancient sacraments and devotions.

Why do you want to become Orthodox? only because of Liturgical abuse in the RC? I believe that if you don't really share the doctrines of the Orthodox Church and do not feel truly Eastern Orthodox you don't have to become Orthodox only to prove your disagreements with Vatican II's Church. I am sure there are still orthodox Latins in USA who offer the Pre-Vatican II Sacraments and that are fully canonical, they will be lucky to have you there.

However you're totally right when you say you are angry. To tell you the truth I also find those liturgical abuses repugnant (as most Orthodox believers who have attended Catholic services) and I have seen how Vatican II's Church and the Novus Ordo Religion has widened the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy and these liturgical abuses are a big obstacle to unity (from an Orthodox perspective), but I definately think that becoming Orthodox is a thing of the heart and not an intellectual thing.

I do think that the Orthodox Church is correct when it offers an option for people who have been alienated by liturgical abuse and the spirit of Liberalism, but this is an act of love and compassion (a healthy conversion) and not an act of anger and rancor.

Just some thougts

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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2002, 06:46:43 PM »

Well put, Hypo-Ortho.

Thanks, Serge.

Quote
I think OoD wanted a reaction from me. Here it is.

<BIIIIG SNIP>

Frankly, OoD, I find your ecclesiology incredibly claustrophobic and lacking in charity and catholicity. I can't make myself believe the Church on earth, founded by Christ, would be reduced to some tiny squabbling sects. I am well within the vast orthodox, apostolic tradition. Crabbed ecclesiology like yours gives Eastern Orthodoxy, and Western converts to same, a bad name. (But as Hypo-Ortho has pointed out, the group you belong to isn't Orthodox.)

Serge, I wonder how aware OoD is that his sect seems somewhat conscious of its isolationist sectarianism in that, on its website, that of the "Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece, Metropolis of North and South America, St. Markella's Cathedral, Astoria, NY (Synod of "Archbishop" Chrysostomos II of Athens and All Greece)," the GOC is attempting to rectify its relationship with the Matthewites and simultaneously reestablish relations with the ROCOR, with which, according to the website, relations were ruptured several years ago.  I'm not quite sure the ROCOR would want to reestablish relations with the GOC if the GOC is attempting to be in communion with the Matthewite sect, however, owing to the latter's radical non-Orthodox ecclesiology.  Indeed, OoD does not seem representative of even his own sect's ecclesiology as reported on its website, and comes across as more of a Matthewite himself, wittingly or unwittingly.

Presently, the *only* "True Orthodox Church of Greece" with which the ROCOR is officially in communion is that of the "moderate" Old Calendar Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece, which is represented in the USA by its Synodal Exarch, Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna [CA] and St. Gregory Palamas Monastery.

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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2002, 08:55:12 PM »

Presently, the *only* "True Orthodox Church of Greece" with which the ROCOR is officially in communion is that of the "moderate" Old Calendar Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece, which is represented in the USA by its Synodal Exarch, Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna [CA] and St. Gregory Palamas Monastery.

I believe that they are also represented by the Convent of St. Elizabeth the convent that makes inexpensive hand-painted icons and vestments of high quality. God Bless!
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2002, 09:14:47 PM »

Presently, the *only* "True Orthodox Church of Greece" with which the ROCOR is officially in communion is that of the "moderate" Old Calendar Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece, which is represented in the USA by its Synodal Exarch, Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna [CA] and St. Gregory Palamas Monastery.

I believe that they are also represented by the Convent of St. Elizabeth the convent that makes inexpensive hand-painted icons and vestments of high quality. God Bless!

The Convent of St. Elizabeth the Grand Duchess in Etna is under Archbishop Chrysostomos' omophorion, Nik.  But Archbishop Chrysostomos' title is "of Etna and St. Gregory Palamas Monastery."

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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2002, 09:19:06 PM »

Gotcha. You can learn something new here every day. God Bless!
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2002, 09:37:47 AM »

...my opinions of the churches I consider apostolic are my opinions - nowhere do I say they are Orthodox dogma. And they are allowable as Orthodox opinion. So I am not misrepresenting Eastern Orthodoxy.

Sifting through the piles of name-calling and brute intimidation, it seems the best I could do to find some semblance of an academic statement is your above quote. Quite brilliant.

Since you profess to be Orthodox, what is allowable as an opinion is everything not found in Holy Tradition, instruction by your priest, and the Synod in which you belong. Kallistos Ware and his isolated examples of economia is hardly the canon of tradition but a wonderful attempt to make an exception the norm.

Holy Tradition is not only dogmatic, but also cherished by the faithful because it is the life of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. The truths of faith which are contained in Apostolic Holy Tradition give the fullness of the teaching of faith which is called by the ancient Fathers of the Church the "catholic faith". This is why sacred scripture is considered an epiphenomenon, or an "outward form" of Holy Tradition.

One form of dogmatic teaching of the Church is the teachings of the Holy Fathers, who passed down Holy Tradition to us unblemished. They were great people of faith and sanctity of life, great teachers of Christ's truth, staunch supporters of the Church and combatants of the enemies of Christian faith and truth. These Fathers have always taught the faith in faithfulness and continuity with our Christian origins. Their consensus and accepted practices are precise teachings of Holy Tradition - they are in essence Orthodox dogma because no part of Holy Tradition is expendable.

Do you have any misunderstandings or are you at all unclear as to their teachings regarding the existence of “other apostolic churches” and your “branch theory”?

The word "heretic" is from the Greek hairesis, meaning to “choose”. This is someone who chooses his own doctrine against the doctrine of the Church, or someone who reduces the doctrine to only one of its aspects. Both are reductionism and the reason why you are only “orthodox” in name.
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2002, 04:36:48 PM »

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Sifting through the piles of name-calling

What? Objectively your group is non-Orthodox and seemingly quite proud of being outside the Eastern Orthodox communion. Protestant private judgement with an iconostasis.

Quote
and brute intimidation

Seems your 'documenting' my 'unorthodox confession' was pretty 'intimidating' or trying to be.

Quote
Since you profess to be Orthodox, what is allowable as an opinion is everything not found in Holy Tradition, instruction by your priest, and the Synod in which you belong.

I don't understand. AFAIK Holy Tradition - Bible, creeds, councils, Fathers as accepted by Church consensus and councils, etc. - does not dogmatize yea or nay about the churchness or lack thereof of groups outside the Eastern Orthodox communion. What is obnoxious about your approach, OoD, is that you are presenting your opinion - your protestant-style judgement of the Eastern Orthodox communion you disdain - as though it were not just small-t tradition but Tradition. And that just isn't so.

Whatever relationship I have with Eastern Orthodoxy has nothing to do with it.

Quote
isolated examples of economia is hardly the canon of tradition

Agreed.

Quote
but a wonderful attempt to make an exception the norm.

I wouldn't try to put words in Bishop Kallistos' mouth. But I can agree that economic intercommunion logically doesn't make sense. Which is why no Orthodox priest I know of in the US does it. The answer one likely would get is, 'You want to receive? Fine - take instructions and convert.'
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2002, 06:50:02 PM »

Perhaps if I rephrase my question...

Do you believe the Church, through the Fathers, is silent on the issue of other "churches" being invisibly part of THE Church, making you free to believe your branch theory?
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2002, 07:33:23 PM »

Perhaps if I rephrase my question...

Do you believe the Church, through the Fathers, is silent on the issue of other "churches" being invisibly part of THE Church, making you free to believe your branch theory?

OoD,

As we Orthodox Christians so succinctly profess as expressed in the unaltered Symbol of Faith as composed by the Holy Fathers at the first two Oecumenical Synods, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, "We (usually put into the first person singular as recited or chanted at the Divine Liturgy) believe in *ONE*, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."  *No* branches.  *No* "Two Lungs."  *No* sects or denominations.  *ONE*, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which, as Orthodox Christians, we believe in and identify with the One Holy Orthodox Church, the One Body of Christ (*NOT* two or more bodies, *NOT* two branches, *NOT* "Two Lungs," nor squabbling schismatic sects or denominations either) as it sojourns in time and place.  Period.

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2002, 08:16:22 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Thank you for the Orthodox confession.

The question was of course intended for Serge, who seems to believe in...

Several Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Churchs

...and also seems to claim his heresy can be chalked up to his "freedom" to make-up whatever he chooses on the matter.

I have made the question as simple and short as possible so I can have it addressed. Am I hoping for too much?
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