Author Topic: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?  (Read 372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Without sounding ignorant, nor to insinuate that these two groups of people are actually one in the same - in terms of spirituality and liturgy, how exactly are the two different from each other? In what ways are they significantly different?

I would like to know, other than ethnic affiliation, what's different and unique about both Churches. Aside from the occasional Greek-style phenolonion, I really don't know what the differences are.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:05:48 PM by LivenotoneviL »
I'm done.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,545
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 01:08:46 PM »
On a side note, I wonder if Nikonian reforms took place in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church before post-CVII rebyzantinisation. Ukrainian Catholics had some pretty different practices from the Ukrainian Orthodox before Vatican II, which are currently kept by the Priestly Society of St. Josaphat Kuntsevych, which is aligned with the SSPX.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:13:48 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,500
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 01:19:44 PM »
On a side note, I wonder if Nikonian reforms took place in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church before post-CVII rebyzantinisation. Ukrainian Catholics had some pretty different practices from the Ukrainian Orthodox before Vatican II, which are currently kept by the Priestly Society of St. Josaphat Kuntsevych, which is aligned with the SSPX.

From what I have read at byzcath.org, the UGCC, Ruthenian Catholics, and ACROD liturgies are pre-Nikonian, though not the same as what became known as Old Rite in Russia. It is more or less what St Peter Mogila codified.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,545
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 01:31:29 PM »
From what I have read at byzcath.org, the UGCC, Ruthenian Catholics, and ACROD liturgies are pre-Nikonian, though not the same as what became known as Old Rite in Russia. It is more or less what St Peter Mogila codified.
I recall googling Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgies and seeing stuff like three Hallelujahs and "mercy of peace, sacrifice of praise". Also, they seem to make the sign of the cross like we do.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,500
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 01:42:35 PM »
It seems to me that a lot of the practices that the old believers denounced as innovations may have been longstanding local practices.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

If you would like a private forum for non-polemical topics, comment here.

Offline Bryan Paul

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 273
  • Chrismated: 2015-08-30
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 02:17:05 PM »
Without sounding ignorant, nor to insinuate that these two groups of people are actually one in the same - in terms of spirituality and liturgy, how exactly are the two different from each other? In what ways are they significantly different?

I would like to know, other than ethnic affiliation, what's different and unique about both Churches. Aside from the occasional Greek-style phenolonion, I really don't know what the differences are.

Are you referring to practices outside Russia and Ukraine (e.g. in America) or within the two respective countries?
Dads of Orthodoxy:
On MeWeOn Facebook

Offline LivenotoneviL

  • Done
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,607
  • Intercede for my wretched soul, Saint Alban.
  • Faith: Outside the Church
  • Jurisdiction: Lost for now.
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 02:23:08 PM »
Both.
I'm done.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,545
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 03:25:14 PM »
It seems to me that a lot of the practices that the old believers denounced as innovations may have been longstanding local practices.
Yeah, that's very probable too. After all, Patriarch Nikon and the Old Believers had the same background: the Zealots of Piety, who seeked to make a more homogeneous rite out of varied local practices. It seems that, in a sense, both of them followed their original intentions.  :P
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Global Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,445
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2018, 05:09:25 PM »
Ukrainians (or rather that time, Rusyns) had different local traditions that Old Believers (Russians). It also applies to Poland: there haven't been any problem with Nikonian reforms, as they didn't touch the local people (well, it wasn't even his jurisdiction).


Ukrainians have more paraliturgical songs, carols and not only - some of them are because of Polish influence (well, most of these people weren't that time neither Poles nor Ukrainians), it's not even about Greek Catholicism.
The way of chanting is quite different, more congregational singing, melodies seem to be simpler.

Chanting "Christ is risen" troparion instead of "let our mouths be filled" not only during Paschal Week, but until Ansecion (of course, it may not apply to every parish).

Actually, I think there are a lot of minor things. Even not to mention Lemkos, that have their own tradtions.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,781
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 09:18:02 AM »
Sometimes you can just create a song to sing and chant
The Sign and Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,792
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 06:29:35 PM »
On a side note, I wonder if Nikonian reforms took place in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church before post-CVII rebyzantinisation. Ukrainian Catholics had some pretty different practices from the Ukrainian Orthodox before Vatican II, which are currently kept by the Priestly Society of St. Josaphat Kuntsevych, which is aligned with the SSPX.

From what I have read at byzcath.org, the UGCC, Ruthenian Catholics, and ACROD liturgies are pre-Nikonian, though not the same as what became known as Old Rite in Russia. It is more or less what St Peter Mogila codified.
That is correct.  We use what has come to be called the Ruthenian Recension as opposed to the Nikonian Recension.  The unions took place before Patriarch Nikon and the areas that became Greek Catholic weren’t in territory the Czar controlled for the most part.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline ilyazhito

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
Re: Differences between Russian and Ukrainian Liturgical Praxis?
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 09:39:55 PM »
Does the UOCUSA still preserve pre-Nikonian practice? AFAIK, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, whether of the 1921 variety that existed through World War II and was suppressed thereafter in Ukraine (which remains in the diaspora as the UOCUSA, UOCC, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Dioceses of Western Europe and Australia and New Zealand), or of the restored variety of 1991 appears to be similar in praxis to the Russian Orthodox Church, albeit in Ukrainian and somewhat less rigorous than ROCOR praxis. Maybe the UAOC and its derivative jurisdictions were influenced by ROC practice, if their clergy were former ROC clergy/ROC parishioners before establishing their church.