Author Topic: Help finding particular Theotokos canon  (Read 162 times)

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Offline Bob2

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Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« on: Yesterday at 09:34:02 PM »
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
Quote
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos   or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...

And encountering this note in the Menaion:
Quote
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"


I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 10:28:50 PM »
I wonder if what you find on page 179 of this is what you're looking for.
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 10:43:57 PM »
I wonder if what you find on page 179 of this is what you're looking for.

Yes, this is the service it is for, however, this is the canon for the feast itself, there should be an introductory canon. As you see it says "6 troparia," not 14, which is what it would be if all troparia came from this canon.  Polyeleos should have an introductory canon with 6, then either 4 and 4, or 8.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #3 on: Today at 11:29:14 AM »
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
Quote
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos   or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...

And encountering this note in the Menaion:
Quote
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"


I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.

What day in the menaion are you looking at?
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #4 on: Today at 01:11:43 PM »
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
Quote
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos   or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...

And encountering this note in the Menaion:
Quote
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"


I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.

What day in the menaion are you looking at?

In the Menaion it is a September 8th, which is also Nativity of the Theotokos, so that service takes precedence on that date. On the Calendar commemoration of the icon is November 27th coming up in about a week.

I've received answers of:1) only do this canon, and do it "on 8" (Irmois 2x, +6 troparia) since the canon for the feast is already a canon to the Theotokos, and 2) another told me to use the Theotokos canon from the Sunday of the leaving Tone.


Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:20:16 PM »
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Quote
Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.


« Last Edit: Today at 01:22:32 PM by Bob2 »

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #6 on: Today at 05:08:26 PM »
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Quote
Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.


That doesn't seem right. The menaion ought to have two canons for September 8th, one with starting with the heirmos "Come O ye peoples, let us sing a song to Christ God," and another starting with the heirmos, "to him who shattered the enemies with his arm." Neither of them starts with the heirmos "I shall open my mouth," to my knowledge.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:10:43 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline WPM

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #7 on: Today at 05:58:15 PM »
Canon to the Guardian Angel? ...

Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #8 on: Today at 06:00:04 PM »
That doesn't seem right. The menaion ought to have two canons for September 8th, one with starting with the heirmos "Come O ye peoples, let us sing a song to Christ God," and another starting with the heirmos, "to him who shattered the enemies with his arm." Neither of them starts with the heirmos "I shall open my mouth," to my knowledge.

You are looking at the Menaion service the Nativity of the Theotokos, sometimes there is more than Menaion service for the same day, this is an additional one to the Icon.

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #9 on: Today at 06:00:39 PM »
What service are you trying to plan?
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:04:14 PM »
What service are you trying to plan?

Vespers and Matins for the Kursk Root Icon, Sat Nov 27th

Offline CarolS

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #11 on: Today at 08:43:22 PM »
In the November Menaion by St. John of Kronstadt Press, for the Kursk Icon feast on Nov. 27th, there is only one canon which has the Irmos: "I will open my mouth...". If there was to be another canon preceding this, you would see it mentioned in the rubrics in this service, but the rubrics in the service say only: "The Canon to the Theotokos, the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos", in Tone 4"

You will find that any service to the Theotokos has more in common with rubrics for a Great Feast of the Theotokos on a weekday, rather than the rules for a saint.

For comparison, in the SJKP Menaion, the Polyeleos service to Apostle Philip (Nov 14) when it is served on a weekday, the rubrics given with the canon specify:
Canon to the Theotokos (the Paraclysis), with 6 troparia, including the Irmos, and that of the apostle, with 8 troparia [... etc.]   This is the way a saint's service (other than the Theotokos) is done on a weekday, which corresponds with the general rules for a Polyeleos rank service in "The Order of Divine Services".






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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #12 on: Today at 08:50:08 PM »
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Quote
Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.


The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.
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Offline CarolS

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #13 on: Today at 08:57:28 PM »
Yes. The acrostic is an interesting literary device in the original Greek, but translations rarely can reproduce this in with 1st letter of each troparion. The acrostic verse would not be read aloud, however, I like seeing them -- gives an interesting insight to the original hymnographer and reminds me to pray to them.

I recall the Akathist to the Theotokos translated at Holy Transfiguration Monastery at Brookline where the translator tried to preserve the acrostic and so that the 17th section corresponding to the English letter "Q" starts with "Quires of angels..."

Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #14 on: Today at 08:58:08 PM »
In the November Menaion by St. John of Kronstadt Press, for the Kursk Icon feast on Nov. 27th, there is only one canon which has the Irmos: "I will open my mouth...". If there was to be another canon preceding this, you would see it mentioned in the rubrics in this service, but the rubrics in the service say only: "The Canon to the Theotokos, the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos", in Tone 4"

You will find that any service to the Theotokos has more in common with rubrics for a Great Feast of the Theotokos on a weekday, rather than the rules for a saint.

For comparison, in the SJKP Menaion, the Polyeleos service to Apostle Philip (Nov 14) when it is served on a weekday, the rubrics given with the canon specify:
Canon to the Theotokos (the Paraclysis), with 6 troparia, including the Irmos, and that of the apostle, with 8 troparia [... etc.]   This is the way a saint's service (other than the Theotokos) is done on a weekday, which corresponds with the general rules for a Polyeleos rank service in "The Order of Divine Services".

This is what I read and I think you're correct it will be just this canon, it has no preceding Theotokos Canon, because it already is one. But it was not clear to me since the note uses a different translation than the text for the first troparion
 "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos" vs "that I may make bold to offer thee a hymn."

I was assuming it referred to some other specific and common canon to the Theotokos.

Perhaps someone can check a Slavonic Menaion to see if note clearly refers to the text in the that first troparion
« Last Edit: Today at 09:16:00 PM by Bob2 »

Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #15 on: Today at 08:59:07 PM »

The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.

I am guessing this the service to St James the Persian, not the Kursk Root service

Offline Bob2

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #16 on: Today at 09:04:07 PM »
Yes. The acrostic is an interesting literary device in the original Greek, but translations rarely can reproduce this in with 1st letter of each troparion. The acrostic verse would not be read aloud, however, I like seeing them -- gives an interesting insight to the original hymnographer and reminds me to pray to them.

I recall the Akathist to the Theotokos translated at Holy Transfiguration Monastery at Brookline where the translator tried to preserve the acrostic and so that the 17th section corresponding to the English letter "Q" starts with "Quires of angels..."

Very interesting, thank you

Offline CarolS

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Re: Help finding particular Theotokos canon
« Reply #17 on: Today at 09:09:01 PM »

The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.

I am guessing this the service to St James the Persian, not the Kursk Root service

No, actually that service is for "The Icon of the Sign" i.e. Kursk Root Icon, though there is a totally different service which is popular in ROCOR, and the English of this is found in the SJKP menaion.  The http://www.st-sergius.org site give 3 possible services for this day.