Author Topic: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture  (Read 858 times)

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Offline Hinterlander

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Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« on: June 09, 2016, 11:07:18 AM »
I've noticed in the Prot. churches I've attended the increasingly common gesture of holding the hands out at about the waist with the palms facing upward during the welcoming prayer and the benediction at the end of the service. The hands are not overlapping but both perpendicular to the body. I did a cursory search of the internet but couldn't find a photo.

Does this gesture/posture have any place in any practices of the Orthodox church?

I don't mind it - I find it much more natural than the hand raising that happens alot in Protestantism.


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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2016, 11:26:00 AM »
Like this?

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2016, 11:28:42 AM »
It's a common Muslim posture (though the official schools frown on it).

Orthodox still retain the orans posture in theory though only the priests seem to do it at certain points in the liturgy.

Offline Aram

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2016, 11:31:52 AM »
This is very common in the Armenian Church, particularly during the singing/recitation of the Lord's Prayer. It's the default prayer hands stance for a lot of people.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 11:41:25 AM »
This is very common in the Armenian Church, particularly during the singing/recitation of the Lord's Prayer. It's the default prayer hands stance for a lot of people.

In my experience, what Aram says about the Armenians holds for pretty much all the Oriental Orthodox, at least for the Lord's Prayer, but often for more than that. 
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2016, 12:10:57 PM »
Like this?
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Who ever call upon Thine intercession.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2016, 12:56:23 PM »
I think we do this in the Pre-Sanctified during Psalm 140:2. But maybe it was personal piety.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2016, 01:08:36 PM »
A dear friend does that in my parish.
I remember seeing a lot of that from when I used to go to Catholic masses when I was a kid.
I don't see any point in doing that.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:08:47 PM by Svartzorn »
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2016, 01:13:40 PM »
Like this?



Yes, this is the posture I'm referring to.

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 01:14:35 PM »
Like this?


Yes, quite a lot like that.

Does this position predate the sign of the cross?  Are they both likely to have emerged in antiquity?  Is there a posture like this in Judaism?

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2016, 01:17:37 PM »
It's a common Muslim posture (though the official schools frown on it).

Orthodox still retain the orans posture in theory though only the priests seem to do it at certain points in the liturgy.

From my understanding the orans posture is different from what I'm describing as the hands are more raised and palms facing upward from the sides with elbows raised.


Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 01:19:18 PM »
It seems rather instinctive. I was told as a kid in RC catechesis I should always walk into a church like that, it had some probably ad hoc theological explanation but I don't recall it.
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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 01:19:36 PM »
Right, the orans posture is different. I had thought it was the default prayer posture of antiquity but I wonder how far back the other one goes. What's the oldest deisis icon extant?

Offline Dominika

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 01:37:41 PM »
Holy Cross cathedral in Damascus, Syria:




I've never seen it among Polish EOs, but among some Polish RCs - yes (during Our Father prayer or any other prayer for God's blessing).

It symbolises the openes of the all human being to the God, to His blessing.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:39:30 PM by Dominika »
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 01:42:40 PM »
Like this?


Yes, quite a lot like that.

Does this position predate the sign of the cross?  Are they both likely to have emerged in antiquity?  Is there a posture like this in Judaism?

I believe so.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

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By Thy joy-bestowing honorable Icon "Queen of All,"
Save those who with fervent desire implore Thy grace;
Deliver from afflictions those who run to Thee;
From all dangers do Thou guard Thy flock,
Who ever call upon Thine intercession.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2016, 02:27:14 PM »
Holy Cross cathedral in Damascus, Syria:

I've seen similar done by Orthodox folks of middle eastern extraction here in the U.S.

But re: the OP, the only Protestant church I've seen do something like described is in a more-liturgical-than-average Presbyterian church.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2016, 04:30:10 PM »
Holy Cross cathedral in Damascus, Syria:

I've seen similar done by Orthodox folks of middle eastern extraction here in the U.S.

But re: the OP, the only Protestant church I've seen do something like described is in a more-liturgical-than-average Presbyterian church.

That makes sense as my frame of reference is Presbyterian & Christian Reformed Churches.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2016, 04:42:12 PM »
I have seen an Antiochian priest do that, fwiw.

Offline wgw

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2016, 05:12:23 PM »
In my experience in the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church, the Lord's Prayer and occasionally other prayers are prayed in this manner.  I also believe I have seen it in EO services.

I had no idea rhere was a Roman Catholic history of using this posture, but that, alomg with the Protestant adoption thereof, I find pleasing.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2016, 05:31:44 PM »
People do this in my church, too, convert and cradle alike only, I think, because my priest does it at the "sursum corda"/Ανω σχωμεν τας καρδιας" (let us lift up our hearts) and people just started following it.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 05:33:54 PM by scamandrius »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2016, 05:33:07 PM »
People do this in my church, too, convert and cradle alike only, I think, because my priest does it at the "sursum corda"/Ανω σχωμεν τας καρδιας" and people just started following it.

Please provide a translation to comply with forum rules.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2016, 05:34:20 PM »
People do this in my church, too, convert and cradle alike only, I think, because my priest does it at the "sursum corda"/Ανω σχωμεν τας καρδιας" and people just started following it.

Please provide a translation to comply with forum rules.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


Modified in the original post. Please note.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2016, 05:35:30 PM »
People do this in my church, too, convert and cradle alike only, I think, because my priest does it at the "sursum corda"/Ανω σχωμεν τας καρδιας" and people just started following it.

Please provide a translation to comply with forum rules.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


Modified in the original post. Please note.

Thanks!
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2016, 05:36:21 PM »
People do this in my church, too, convert and cradle alike only, I think, because my priest does it at the "sursum corda"/Ανω σχωμεν τας καρδιας" and people just started following it.

Please provide a translation to comply with forum rules.  Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


Modified in the original post. Please note.

Thanks!

Sure thing. SOrry about that.

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2016, 05:49:31 PM »
Do synagogue services hold their hands out like that also?

Offline Nephi

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2016, 08:39:54 PM »
Like this?



Saw first and second generation Syrian immigrants do this regularly at my old Antiochian parish. I've also seen priests do it from different ethnicities/jurisdictions.

Offline biro

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2016, 10:08:54 PM »
Do synagogue services hold their hands out like that also?

I believe they're supposed to do that during certain prayers.

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2016, 10:21:45 AM »
I see this done by our Greek Orthodox priest when venerating Icons.
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Offline Matthew79

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 10:33:37 PM »
I was a more charismatic-leaning Protestant for a good part of my life. This is common, but also various forms... It is almost always spontaneous/random, but it is an expression of what is going on in our hearts, lifting ourselves up to God in thankfulness... or it could signify the lifting up of our prayers, or others, to God (since they don't use incense). Sometimes with palms out, to show that the glory of the Lord is shining down on us and we are "soaking it up" or "basking in the glory".

On a less serious note, here's a hilarious Protestant comedian that explains all the hand gestures:

https://youtu.be/TK2_ezOBa2A
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:47:38 PM by Matthew79 »

Offline mike

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Re: Question about an increasingly common Prot. stance/gesture
« Reply #29 on: Today at 12:17:56 AM »
So, hasn't anyone noticed this is just an orans position lite, I mean when you cannot keep your hands high enough?
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