Author Topic: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?  (Read 222 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lazarus1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« on: June 26, 2015, 07:55:16 PM »
Are the Eastern Catholic liturgies exactly the same as their Orthodox counterparts, aside from the mention of the Bishop of Rome?

Have the Eastern Catholic liturgies been changed since Vatican II took place? If so, how big were the changes?  Thank you.
It takes a wise man to discover a wise man.....

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,754
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 07:58:58 PM »
Are the Eastern Catholic liturgies exactly the same as their Orthodox counterparts, aside from the mention of the Bishop of Rome?

No. 

Quote
Have the Eastern Catholic liturgies been changed since Vatican II took place? If so, how big were the changes?  Thank you.

Someone else will be able to answer this better than I can.  Perhaps Fr Lance.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 07:59:09 PM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,698
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 08:08:19 PM »
I briefly attended a Byzantine Catholic parish for a period before I ended up at an Orthodox one. I have no idea how it's possible, but the BC Liturgy was only an hour long, and this was with Communion! I'd kind of be interested in going back and seeing what they omitted to make it that short.

That said, I enjoyed my time there and found the Liturgy to be very reverent and moving. I loved their cherubic hymn. I received Communion there and it was basically the same as it is in Orthodoxy, except that we didn't kiss the chalice and no one folded their arms.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,402
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
    • Return to Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 09:05:28 PM »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,698
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 09:07:40 PM »
I guess "no one crossed their arms" would have been a better way of putting it.  :P
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,402
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
    • Return to Orthodoxy
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 09:12:36 PM »
It took me half a sec to figure out you meant while the people were receiving the Eucharist, that's all.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,751
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 09:16:09 PM »
I visited the Byzantine Catholic church near me a few times. Yes, it was quite short. You can find lots of rants at a certain other eastern Christian forum about why the revised divine liturgy is an atrocity... I didn't really pay too close attention to differences, but yes, it was shorter.

Also, I notice not many people at my ACROD church cross their arms at communion, so this might be a Carpatho-Rus thing rather than a Byzantine Catholic thing.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,271
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 10:50:48 PM »
Are the Eastern Catholic liturgies exactly the same as their Orthodox counterparts, aside from the mention of the Bishop of Rome?

Have the Eastern Catholic liturgies been changed since Vatican II took place? If so, how big were the changes?  Thank you.
Depends, some yes, some no.  For example I don't think you would notice much difference between a Melkite Catholic and Antiochian Orthodox liturgy.  On the other hand you would notice several abbreviations in a Byzantine Catholic liturgy as compared to a Russian Orthodox liturgy but not much difference from an ACROD liturgy.

Many Eastern Catholic liturgies were changed post Vatican II, but most of these were de-Latinizations, although many Eastern Catholic liturgies opted for some abbreviation, usually the suppression of repeated litanies.

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,394
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2015, 06:58:23 PM »
I visited the Byzantine Catholic church near me a few times. Yes, it was quite short. You can find lots of rants at a certain other eastern Christian forum about why the revised divine liturgy is an atrocity... I didn't really pay too close attention to differences, but yes, it was shorter.

Also, I notice not many people at my ACROD church cross their arms at communion, so this might be a Carpatho-Rus thing rather than a Byzantine Catholic thing.

We were all taught to fold our arms when receiving Communion and I'm sixty something so that surprises me. As far as kissing the chalice is concerned, in the ACROD you will see the clergy under say forty five of so offering the chalice, the older ones not so much. I suspect that is a result of the transition over time from the Eastern Catholic norms that came with folks in the late 1930's. Some Byzantine Catholic parishes are more eastern than the sunrise, again it depends on the pastor so generalizing is a tough thing.

I think - and it is just an I think - that Byzantine Catholic liturgies do not generally have more than one antiphonal verse, some do not chant the Beatitudes, some do not chant verses and repeat the prokimenion and the alleluias. In the ACROD practice all of those are included officially. There are no 'paki paki' short ektenias in either practice. I think that sums up the difference. Our liturgy in our ACROD parish on Sunday's during the non-summer season starts at 9 am and is usually out by 10:50 or so as there are more communicants in the non-summer season and a retired priest is in town during the summer who helps with Communion. (He is a snow bird.) In the summer the homily is usually shorter also.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 07:03:45 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline William T

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2015, 07:13:17 PM »
I've been to a Melkite service once or twice.  I don't recall any differences, but that was 10 years ago so my memory is fuzzy.


If other Catholic Byzantine services are shorter, I wouldn't be surprised.   Catholics have a shorter liturgy than us, though I've been to a Greek Orthodox Church that knocked out a liturgy in about an hour and five minutes before (the Catholic norm is what though, 45 min?).  And I think Orthodox people who are more familiar with the Russian style are used to a longer service in general than the rest if us (?) anyway.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 07:21:28 PM by William T »
"While other animals look downwards at the ground, he gave human beings an upturned aspect, commanding them to look towards the skies, and, upright, raise their face to the stars. So the earth, that had been, a moment ago, uncarved and imageless, changed and assumed the unknown shapes of human beings."

Ovid, Metamorphosis Book I

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,271
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2015, 08:56:48 PM »
I visited the Byzantine Catholic church near me a few times. Yes, it was quite short. You can find lots of rants at a certain other eastern Christian forum about why the revised divine liturgy is an atrocity... I didn't really pay too close attention to differences, but yes, it was shorter.

Also, I notice not many people at my ACROD church cross their arms at communion, so this might be a Carpatho-Rus thing rather than a Byzantine Catholic thing.

We were all taught to fold our arms when receiving Communion and I'm sixty something so that surprises me. As far as kissing the chalice is concerned, in the ACROD you will see the clergy under say forty five of so offering the chalice, the older ones not so much. I suspect that is a result of the transition over time from the Eastern Catholic norms that came with folks in the late 1930's. Some Byzantine Catholic parishes are more eastern than the sunrise, again it depends on the pastor so generalizing is a tough thing.

I think - and it is just an I think - that Byzantine Catholic liturgies do not generally have more than one antiphonal verse, some do not chant the Beatitudes, some do not chant verses and repeat the prokimenion and the alleluias. In the ACROD practice all of those are included officially. There are no 'paki paki' short ektenias in either practice. I think that sums up the difference. Our liturgy in our ACROD parish on Sunday's during the non-summer season starts at 9 am and is usually out by 10:50 or so as there are more communicants in the non-summer season and a retired priest is in town during the summer who helps with Communion. (He is a snow bird.) In the summer the homily is usually shorter also.
Yes the revised 2006 Liturgikon, only has one verse per each antiphon, but the Beatitudes are an option.  The verses of the prokimen and alleluia are supposed to be taken. The Angel of Peace litany after the great entrance is suppressed as well.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline TheMathematician

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,887
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Eastern Catholic vs Orthodox liturgies?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2015, 11:16:34 PM »
The first acrod parish I went to came in at about 1h20, and this was for Palm Sunday and pascha.