Author Topic: Female Altar Servers??  (Read 48886 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2013, 01:24:04 PM »
If that's a real Orthodox Church and not one of those pretend groups, we need to find who their Bishop is and get that stopped immediately. If the Bishop won't do anything, then we need to beyond him to whicher Patriarch they are under.

That is just sick and distorted, they can't possibly call themselves Orthodox and tolerate that.

More and more funny.

More and more obvious you'd fit in better with the Anglicans.

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2013, 01:25:42 PM »
I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way.

You are wrong (what a surprise). That's not a way subdeacons wear orarions.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2013, 01:29:05 PM »
I love how everyone's got an orarion!  

I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.
Hmm.. I've been in only a handful of Antiochian parishes and never seen an acolyte with an orarion. Unless the acolytes are very young, is it possible that the parish has an abundance of subdeacons?

Offline sheenj

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2013, 01:30:11 PM »
I love how everyone's got an orarion!  

I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.

I believe acolytes wear the Orarion with the ends falling straight down, while subdeacons wear it with the ends crossed in the front, like so.



Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2013, 01:39:14 PM »
I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.

I've never seen Antiochian acolytes wearing oraria, I've only seen it in Greek churches (and not all).  I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.  If that's true, then that's fine.  But otherwise, why would someone in a rank not entitled to an orarion get to wear one anyway?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »
I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.

How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2013, 02:24:07 PM »
..She looks like my cousin Linda..
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2013, 02:59:34 PM »
I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.

How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

A little tale about youthful sub-deacons, as my father laughingly would recall:

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

It's odd history is detailed here: http://orthodoxhistory.org/2009/12/02/federated-orthodox-greek-catholic-primary-jurisdictions-in-america/ ( My dad is third from the left in the back row of the picture. It was an awkward time for my parents because part of mom's family attended the East Buffalo Metropolia parish (Metropolia was excluded by the Patriarchal Russians from the Federation) and her first cousin was Fr. Wolkodorff' s daughter-in-law (the influential  local Metrooolia priest and rival of the noted Fr. Gelsinger of the Antiochians and professor at the University of Buffalo....)  and my parents lived with my mom's aunt and uncle next door to that church. )

Anyway, on a brutally hot August 23, 1943 several thousand faithful and a hundred or so clergy and a dozen bishops crammed into Kleinhans Music  Hall for Liturgy. No air conditioning. Archbishop Athenagoras decided that the ten year old altar boys from the local Greek parish needed to be made sub-deacons in order to "remember the day." Midway through the four hour service two of the boys fainted.

The next day the service was front page in the Buffalo Evening News. Of course the headline wasn't the historical event but rather it read "Would be boy clerics faint during marathon mass." Sigh....we Orthodox never seem to catch a break.

Sadly the whole structure of the Federation was flawed and it collapsed two years later setting back the cause of Orthodox unity back nearly three quarters of a century. It should be noted that the next attempt at such a large joint service was in September 1963 hosted by CEOYLA in Pittsburgh and then commemorated twenty five years after that again in Pittsburgh in 1988, both at the old ice arena/Civic Center. (My father participated in all three of these events.)

(End of boring anecdote.  Thank you.)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2013, 03:03:49 PM »

I've never seen Antiochian acolytes wearing oraria, I've only seen it in Greek churches (and not all).  I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.  

I don't know about the Greeks but I have seen in my own parish two very young subdeacons (younger than 10) who were ordained in the Church of Bulgaria.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2013, 03:19:05 PM »
How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

I thought it was too good to be true!   :-\

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

FOGCPJA?  There's your problem right there.  An organisation with an acronym like that was doomed to fail.  Our current acronyms are much better these days, and that's why unity is a more realistic goal now.  :P
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2013, 03:20:07 PM »
How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

I thought it was too good to be true!   :-\

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

FOGCPJA?  There's your problem right there.  An organisation with an acronym like that was doomed to fail.  Our current acronyms are much better these days, and that's why unity is a more realistic goal now.  :P

There is much truth in this statement.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »
I don't know about the Greeks but I have seen in my own parish two very young subdeacons (younger than 10) who were ordained in the Church of Bulgaria.

That's really young! 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline sheenj

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2013, 03:27:46 PM »

I've never seen Antiochian acolytes wearing oraria, I've only seen it in Greek churches (and not all).  I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.  

I don't know about the Greeks but I have seen in my own parish two very young subdeacons (younger than 10) who were ordained in the Church of Bulgaria.

:o That's completely foreign to me. In my church you pretty much need to be in Seminary to be even ordained as a chanter.

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2013, 03:30:25 PM »

I've
:o That's completely foreign to me. In my church you pretty much need to be in Seminary to be even ordained as a chanter.

Not such a bad idea.  In the 19th century cantors who were ordained did study in seminary.  Also even today some Russian orthodox seminaries have special programmes for people who become choir directors in churches. Don't you think it is a good idea to know theology as well as music?

Offline Orest

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2013, 03:32:36 PM »
Well, at one time, there were women deacons. Not saying there should be more than that, but I think it may have been included in the duties of the woman deacon to carry a candle sometimes.

If St. Paul could accept it in his time, and his letters say that he did, why not people today?
The Orthodox Church of Greece has deaconesses.  So don't use the past tense.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2013, 03:34:22 PM »
:o That's completely foreign to me. In my church you pretty much need to be in Seminary to be even ordained as a chanter.

Yes, but that is almost certainly a historical accident: contemporary Indian practice in this regard is unique among all the OO Churches.  Typically, you need to be at least in your mid-to-late teens to be a subdeacon in most of the Churches, and that is a reduction from the canonical age IIRC.    
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2013, 03:41:11 PM »
Not such a bad idea.  In the 19th century cantors who were ordained did study in seminary.  Also even today some Russian orthodox seminaries have special programmes for people who become choir directors in churches. Don't you think it is a good idea to know theology as well as music?

I think some form of more specialised study and training is appropriate (definitely for one's ministry, but also theological disciplines), though if someone has no plans ever to pursue diaconal or priestly ordination, a three year Master's is probably overkill.   
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2013, 03:42:35 PM »
I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way.

You are wrong (what a surprise). That's not a way subdeacons wear orarions.

I'm not wrong, acolytes do wear orarions, but as noted below you, the difference between them and subdeacons is just crossing the orarion versus being vertical strips.


Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2013, 03:42:35 PM »
I love how everyone's got an orarion!  

I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.
Hmm.. I've been in only a handful of Antiochian parishes and never seen an acolyte with an orarion. Unless the acolytes are very young, is it possible that the parish has an abundance of subdeacons?

No, most of their acolytes are very young and wear their orarions differently than subdeacons.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2013, 03:45:36 PM »
Yes, but that is almost certainly a historical accident: contemporary Indian practice in this regard is unique among all the OO Churches.  Typically, you need to be at least in your mid-to-late teens to be a subdeacon in most of the Churches, and that is a reduction from the canonical age IIRC.   

If canonical age were to be a requirement, no priest should be ordained before 30 (when Our Lord began his ministry) and no deacon before 25 (cf. Numbers 8:24).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:46:33 PM by Romaios »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2013, 03:55:14 PM »
If canonical age were to be a requirement, no priest should be ordained before 30 (when Our Lord began his ministry) and no deacon before 25 (cf. Numbers 8:24).

Oh, I'm aware of that.  One of the positive consequences of the contemporary Indian practice is that we generally comply with these requirements, if only by accident.  Then again, when the canons set these ages, people were more mature, got married earlier, etc.  If we adjusted these ages for modern circumstances, deacons would probably have to wait for middle age, and presbyters would actually be old.  :P
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2013, 05:07:05 PM »
How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

I thought it was too good to be true!   :-\

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

FOGCPJA?  There's your problem right there.  An organisation with an acronym like that was doomed to fail.  Our current acronyms are much better these days, and that's why unity is a more realistic goal now.  :P

Not to mention the clash of titanic egos. That may still be a problem.... ;)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »
If canonical age were to be a requirement, no priest should be ordained before 30 (when Our Lord began his ministry) and no deacon before 25 (cf. Numbers 8:24).

Oh, I'm aware of that.  One of the positive consequences of the contemporary Indian practice is that we generally comply with these requirements, if only by accident.  Then again, when the canons set these ages, people were more mature, got married earlier, etc.  If we adjusted these ages for modern circumstances, deacons would probably have to wait for middle age, and presbyters would actually be old.  :P

The age of 30 was set for a presbyter because that was Christ's age when he began his public ministry. It didn't have to do with marrying and maturity from that.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2013, 07:08:33 PM »
How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

I thought it was too good to be true!   :-\

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

FOGCPJA?  There's your problem right there.  An organisation with an acronym like that was doomed to fail.  Our current acronyms are much better these days, and that's why unity is a more realistic goal now.  :P

There is much truth in this statement.

Like the AAAAA, the Ambiguously Autonomous Antiochian Archdiocese of America. You sort of make the sound "aaaaa" when thinking of it.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2013, 07:26:16 PM »
I love how everyone's got an orarion!  

I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.

Greek and Antiochian altar servers are vested in a subdeacon's orarion, but the arms of the orarion are not crossed over in an X shape at the front as they would be for a subdeacon. The arms are parallel to each other. A small difference, but a significant one.

Slavic altar servers simply wear a stikharion, without an orarion, unless they have been tonsured as subdeacons.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »
I love how everyone's got an orarion!  

I think that is standard Greek practice (this includes Antiochians as far as I know). On acolytes, the orarion is usually wrapped around in the form you see above. I've been told that it is rarely done in the Slavic tradition, and only by special blessing from the Bishop. I think that is how subdeacons wear their orarions, but I don't know why acolytes would wear them that way. I just know I've seen it both in Greece, and in Antiochian parishes here in the US.

Greek and Antiochian altar servers are vested in a subdeacon's orarion, but the arms of the orarion are not crossed over in an X shape at the front as they would be for a subdeacon. The arms are parallel to each other. A small difference, but a significant one.

Slavic altar servers simply wear a stikharion, without an orarion, unless they have been tonsured as subdeacons.
I imagine this falls under the Greek tradition as well, but I have seen Bulgarians and Romanians have oraria, too, for their altar servers.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2013, 07:51:09 PM »
How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

I thought it was too good to be true!   :-\

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

FOGCPJA?  There's your problem right there.  An organisation with an acronym like that was doomed to fail.  Our current acronyms are much better these days, and that's why unity is a more realistic goal now.  :P

There is much truth in this statement.

Like the AAAAA, the Ambiguously Autonomous Antiochian Archdiocese of America. You sort of make the sound "aaaaa" when thinking of it.
:D Love it! Also +2 points for making me think of that one album by Poison.

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2013, 08:21:49 PM »
If anyone is interested, it was patriarchal deacon to HH John X and the picture was taken during patriarchal Liturgy in Ko:ln.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:24:34 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2013, 08:38:29 PM »


If that's a real Orthodox Church and not one of those pretend groups, we need to find who their Bishop is and get that stopped immediately. If the Bishop won't do anything, then we need to beyond him to whicher Patriarch they are under.

That is just sick and distorted, they can't possibly call themselves Orthodox and tolerate that.
This photo was clearly photoshopped...

...to remove the spiritual fire.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2013, 08:45:47 PM »
The age of 30 was set for a presbyter because that was Christ's age when he began his public ministry. It didn't have to do with marrying and maturity from that.

I guess you skipped over the part where I said I was aware of this.  But I do think it's silly to presume that this is the only reason why the age was set at 30.  Different local/regional Churches had different minimum ages for the various orders, including the presbyterate.  In streamlining the requirement, having a Scriptural precedent would've added greater weight to the preferred choice as opposed to the rejected options.  It's also silly to presume that "marrying" and "maturity" had nothing to do with it.  Certainly, it factored into the equation for St Paul (cf. I Tim. 3.1-7).    
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2013, 08:47:31 PM »


If that's a real Orthodox Church and not one of those pretend groups, we need to find who their Bishop is and get that stopped immediately. If the Bishop won't do anything, then we need to beyond him to whicher Patriarch they are under.

That is just sick and distorted, they can't possibly call themselves Orthodox and tolerate that.
This photo was clearly photoshopped...

...to remove the spiritual fire.

LOL!!!
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2013, 08:54:44 PM »
...and the sloppy attire of the deacon. Those vestments look like they were run up by his aunt in a hurry.

Is there a thread somewhere here about modern Greek vestments?  Some of the fabrics, colours, and patterns used in newer sets look absolutely dreadful, even when they match with each other.     
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2013, 09:01:20 PM »
...and the sloppy attire of the deacon. Those vestments look like they were run up by his aunt in a hurry.

Is there a thread somewhere here about modern Greek vestments?  Some of the fabrics, colours, and patterns used in newer sets look absolutely dreadful, even when they match with each other.     

I like his vestments.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2013, 09:07:33 PM »
I like his vestments.

I'm not a fan of the sticharion, I think it's too busy, but the orarion is nice. 
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2013, 09:52:17 PM »
I like his vestments.

I'm not a fan of the sticharion, I think it's too busy, but the orarion is nice. 

The sticharion reminds me of those ugly rainbow vestments from the Anglican Church.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2013, 09:52:22 PM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2013, 10:43:02 PM »


If that's a real Orthodox Church and not one of those pretend groups, we need to find who their Bishop is and get that stopped immediately. If the Bishop won't do anything, then we need to beyond him to whicher Patriarch they are under.

That is just sick and distorted, they can't possibly call themselves Orthodox and tolerate that.
This photo was clearly photoshopped...

...to remove the spiritual fire.

LOL!!!

Funny. We were at this church for Easter this year. Also attended an Orthodox wedding on Good Friday in a little town north of Dusseldorf), to boot.

They had four girls in these purple outfits. Serving behind the alter. Thought it was strange. Even funnier to see it here.*


*Or, at least, 'funny.'
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:44:51 PM by Rambam »

Offline Rambam

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2013, 10:56:57 PM »
Here's a directory entry for the church:

http://orthodox-world.org/en/i/11639/Orthodox_Church_of_the_Saint_Georgios_Koln?osCsid=ms5vlmre6geqfdot8g2ojrkaj3

The Metropolitan's name may sound familiar. I guess the page is a little out of date.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2013, 11:05:20 PM »
Sorry, can't help myself, one more: A link to a photo gallery of the church in Cologne. You'll spot the current Antiochian patriarch in the same frame as those girls in the fabulous purple get-ups. Guess it's been sanctioned at the highest levels, hunh?

http://www.antiocheurope.org/en/photogallery/album/71/HE-Metropolitan-John-Celebrates-the-Divine-Liturgy-in-Cologne_Germany

BTW: Picture No. 13/32 shows the purple girls behind the iconostasis ... with the patriarch a few feet away.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:14:45 PM by Rambam »

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2013, 11:09:19 PM »
Sorry, can't help myself, one more: A link to a photo gallery of the church in Cologne. You'll spot the current Antiochian patriarch in the same frame as those girls in the fabulous purple get-ups. Guess it's been sanctioned at the highest levels, hunh?

http://www.antiocheurope.org/en/photogallery/album/71/HE-Metropolitan-John-Celebrates-the-Divine-Liturgy-in-Cologne_Germany

Interesting photos.  Off topic, but I like 15/32.  :)
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Rambam

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2013, 11:12:16 PM »
Sorry, can't help myself, one more: A link to a photo gallery of the church in Cologne. You'll spot the current Antiochian patriarch in the same frame as those girls in the fabulous purple get-ups. Guess it's been sanctioned at the highest levels, hunh?

http://www.antiocheurope.org/en/photogallery/album/71/HE-Metropolitan-John-Celebrates-the-Divine-Liturgy-in-Cologne_Germany

Interesting photos.  Off topic, but I like 15/32.  :)

Yeah, extremely beautiful church. It was also a heckuva cultural experience to visit -- for an Okie like me to be in a Syrian Orthodox Church just a mile from the Rhine.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2013, 11:21:55 PM »
I had to remove a few post because they were attacking people. This is a controversial topic, but personal attacks are never appropriate. You may debate the practice but not the people. Consider yourselves warned, and moderatorial action will occur for anyone committing any personal attacks in this thread from this time forward unto the end of the ages.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2013, 11:26:36 PM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.

I certainly am not, in case you missed it.
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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2013, 12:09:34 AM »
Wow. Really sad for these young ladies. It's a shame that the clergy seemed to have missed the opportunity to help them live out their vocation as women by properly catechizing them. Instead, now, (whether they always get to "serve" or if this was a one time deal "because the Patriarch showed up") they will have now had to endure an incidence which causes them confusion. Sad for them, really.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2013, 01:44:59 AM »
I don't know why they do it; I've heard, though never had it confirmed, that Greeks don't just allow unordained people to serve, but ordain them as subdeacons so that they can serve.

How I wish that was true! It's the case in my church - though they're ordained as readers (which has absorbed the now defunct office of taper-bearer) not subdeacons - but in most other churches I've been to it isn't.

A little tale about youthful sub-deacons, as my father laughingly would recall:

My late father was a newly ordained priest serving a Carpathian Russian parish in South Buffalo, NY in 1943. He was present at the creation of the first attempt at canonical unity in America called the Federated Orthodox Greek Catholic Primary Jurisdictions in America (FOGCPJA).

It's odd history is detailed here: http://orthodoxhistory.org/2009/12/02/federated-orthodox-greek-catholic-primary-jurisdictions-in-america/ ( My dad is third from the left in the back row of the picture. It was an awkward time for my parents because part of mom's family attended the East Buffalo Metropolia parish (Metropolia was excluded by the Patriarchal Russians from the Federation) and her first cousin was Fr. Wolkodorff' s daughter-in-law (the influential  local Metrooolia priest and rival of the noted Fr. Gelsinger of the Antiochians and professor at the University of Buffalo....)  and my parents lived with my mom's aunt and uncle next door to that church. )

Anyway, on a brutally hot August 23, 1943 several thousand faithful and a hundred or so clergy and a dozen bishops crammed into Kleinhans Music  Hall for Liturgy. No air conditioning. Archbishop Athenagoras decided that the ten year old altar boys from the local Greek parish needed to be made sub-deacons in order to "remember the day." Midway through the four hour service two of the boys fainted.

The next day the service was front page in the Buffalo Evening News. Of course the headline wasn't the historical event but rather it read "Would be boy clerics faint during marathon mass." Sigh....we Orthodox never seem to catch a break.

Sadly the whole structure of the Federation was flawed and it collapsed two years later setting back the cause of Orthodox unity back nearly three quarters of a century. It should be noted that the next attempt at such a large joint service was in September 1963 hosted by CEOYLA in Pittsburgh and then commemorated twenty five years after that again in Pittsburgh in 1988, both at the old ice arena/Civic Center. (My father participated in all three of these events.)

(End of boring anecdote.  Thank you.)

how did Isa get in there

is this some sort of cabal

you had an interesting father
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