Author Topic: Female Altar Servers??  (Read 44571 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #270 on: September 18, 2013, 03:20:40 PM »
Except having regular subdeacons in non-cathedral EO churches is an American phenomenon not seen anywhere else and not really having any purpose.

It would have a purpose if the altar wasn't full of unordained people doing all the subdeacon's jobs. But ordaining them as readers (on the assumptions that this included the now defunct office of taper-bearer) would be fine too...and they don't even have to be married, so even less excuse.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:22:14 PM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #271 on: September 18, 2013, 03:21:29 PM »
Bring back taper bearers and tylers.
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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #272 on: September 18, 2013, 03:28:06 PM »
and even (sadly) people who want that foot in the door to say that they are among the clergy without having to go to seminary or do real pastoral ministry while retaining the appearance of authority.     

IMO, this.

But ordaining them as readers (on the assumptions that this included the now defunct office of taper-bearer) would be fine too...and they don't even have to be married, so even less excuse.

Readers' duties are different. There is no reason for reader to enter the altar unless he needs the blessing to read the Epistle.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #273 on: September 18, 2013, 03:35:53 PM »
First, no one here endorsed a view of woman in the church which is contrary to the teachings of our Church.

Secondly, our church, our Faith, our beliefs are under such attack in today's world that it is incumbent on those of us given the talents by God to use our intellect to learn how to respond to false claims, logical trickery and outright distortions of our Faith when challenged. To simply fall back and say that is the responsibility of others, who are more interested in those matters,  is simply gutless.

Our faith is about something far deeper than its rubrics, it's vestments, it's icons, the Fathers, the Saints even Holy Scripture standing alone. It is the totality of those things together as we answer our Lord's command, " Come, follow Me." If we take seriously the great commission, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", one has to be able to defend the Church, not simply reply with slogans or bare conclusions.

This doesn't mean we are all called to be priests or "great thinkers." Hardly. But if we react with anger even when questioned by fellow believers online, how on earth will you respond in a social setting, with a friend or a loved one?

The "equal to the Apostles" honorific is a good example. How will you answer a friend of another Faith or no faith if he or she were to challenge you on just what that means. "Because" is not an answer worthy of a serious human being.

Finally, it is not my place to question the level of catachesis in any particular parish, but sometimes, having seen how seriously my father and brother took that responsibility over the years, I have to wonder.....(Frankly, that is a common topic of conversation among Orthodox clergy in private.)  As someone who has spent most of the past sixty years of my life actively engaged in the church and in the regular company of clergy of all American jurisdictions, I will say what at least five bishops I know or knew well would advise here today. -  some folks could benefit from a swift kick to the "dupa."

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #274 on: September 18, 2013, 03:36:48 PM »
Readers' duties are different. There is no reason for reader to enter the altar unless he needs the blessing to read the Epistle.

That's why I said "on the assumptions that this included the now defunct office of taper-bearer."

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #275 on: September 18, 2013, 03:36:59 PM »
Readers' duties are different. There is no reason for reader to enter the altar unless he needs the blessing to read the Epistle.

I agree.  

It would be interesting to learn why subdiaconate is the first order that requires you to have made a choice to be married or celibate before its conferral.  Are we linking service at the altar to sexual purity, either in virginity or a monogamous Christian marriage, to such an extent that we require a choice to be made before one has access to the altar?  Certainly, there is at least one canon that allows a man to be ordained as a deacon and enter into marriage afterwards but before priestly ordination, so I don't know if I accept this reasoning, but it is a possibility.  

At present, I think there should be little problem in dispensing subdeacons from the requirement to stay unmarried if they were unmarried at the time of their ordination.  It's not unknown in EO, and certainly it is the practice in other Eastern Churches.  It seems more genuine and traditional than blessing what is in essence "dress up".    
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #276 on: September 18, 2013, 03:38:12 PM »
and even (sadly) people who want that foot in the door to say that they are among the clergy without having to go to seminary or do real pastoral ministry while retaining the appearance of authority.     

IMO, this.

;)
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #277 on: September 18, 2013, 03:40:06 PM »
At present, I think there should be little problem in dispensing subdeacons from the requirement to stay unmarried if they were unmarried at the time of their ordination.  It's not unknown in EO, and certainly it is the practice in other Eastern Churches.  It seems more genuine and traditional than blessing what is in essence "dress up".    

Disagree. But that's only mine opinion.

Blessing to be a subdeacon does not give all privileges: one is only allowed to wear orarion and serve the bishop. No enterring via main gates or touching the altar (AFAIK).
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #278 on: September 18, 2013, 03:40:32 PM »
I came from a large parish. We had thirty six altar boys in 1964,you served once or twice a month. Every Saturday morning we were at church to learn how to sing the responses, the Troparions, the tones all in Slavonic, later in English.  Twelve became Orthodox priests (two deceased), one is an OCA Bishop today, one is his Archdeacon, three are cantors and one a choir director.

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #279 on: September 18, 2013, 03:43:32 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #280 on: September 18, 2013, 03:44:05 PM »
and even (sadly) people who want that foot in the door to say that they are among the clergy without having to go to seminary or do real pastoral ministry while retaining the appearance of authority.     

IMO, this.

;)

True indeed, there's a local parish with more wannabe readers, sub deacons etc running around the front than people in the choir....

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #281 on: September 18, 2013, 03:45:37 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.

True, probably half of the others are not part of Orthodoxy today...but that's generally true in any demographic sampling in the past fifty years....

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #282 on: September 18, 2013, 03:47:02 PM »
Disagree. But that's only mine opinion.

Blessing to be a subdeacon does not give all privileges: one is only allowed to wear orarion and serve the bishop. No enterring via main gates or touching the altar (AFAIK).

I think we probably agree on more than we disagree.

I've never seen an actual EO subdeacon enter through the main gates of the altar or touch the altar except at their ordination to diaconate, but most of the actual EO subdeacons I've seen "in action" were in seminary.  I've never seen a "permanent" subdeacon in a parish.    

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #283 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:17 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.

My goodness.  Sometimes, people are just not "right" for the job, but other times they simply make bad judgements in life.  Sometimes, even the dysfunction of the Church can drive them to it. 
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #284 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »
I've never seen an actual EO subdeacon enter through the main gates of the altar or touch the altar except at their ordination to diaconate, but most of the actual EO subdeacons I've seen "in action" were in seminary.  I've never seen a "permanent" subdeacon in a parish.    

We have two "permanent" subdeacons in our parish. They both go through the beautiful gates at certain times, and can touch the altar and (empty) vessels when needed.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #285 on: September 18, 2013, 03:50:36 PM »
We have two "permanent" subdeacons in our parish. They both go through the beautiful gates at certain times, and can touch the altar and (empty) vessels when needed.

Very interesting, this is our practice as well. 
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #286 on: September 18, 2013, 04:24:48 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.
Is it better to have an unrepentant foul mouthed male drug dealer who is an atheist OR a saintly female nun as altar server? Which would be more pleasing to God?

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #287 on: September 18, 2013, 04:26:46 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.
Is it better to have an unrepentant foul mouthed male drug dealer who is an atheist OR a saintly female nun as altar server? Which would be more pleasing to God?

He was thrown out of the window form the 12th floor or something. He had plenty of time to repent before reaching ground.
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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #288 on: September 18, 2013, 04:44:35 PM »
Is it better to have an unrepentant foul mouthed male drug dealer who is an atheist OR a saintly female nun as altar server? Which would be more pleasing to God?

He was thrown out of the window form the 12th floor or something. He had plenty of time to repent before reaching ground.

Admittedly, mine is an inappropriate reaction, but LOL. 
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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #289 on: September 18, 2013, 07:53:03 PM »
Out of 20-30 fellow altar servers from my parish, one is a priest, one is a seminary graduate and will probably be ordained in the future (not married yet), one is a seminary student.

One is an atheist, one of the other was killed in some drug dealers conflict, so I can't really say it has positive impact only.
Is it better to have an unrepentant foul mouthed male drug dealer who is an atheist OR a saintly female nun as altar server? Which would be more pleasing to God?
Why base your argument on the premise of the false dichotomy that it has to be one or the other? Right now, I would say neither. We should look instead for a third option.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #290 on: September 19, 2013, 12:22:30 PM »

Why should we look for a third option?

Because male altar servers end up not being model citizens?  That has nothing to do with them being male or female. 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #291 on: September 19, 2013, 12:27:58 PM »
Third option:  Get rid of altar servers completely.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #292 on: September 19, 2013, 01:05:26 PM »
Fourth option.  Make android altar servers.  They never sin.
God bless!

Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #293 on: September 19, 2013, 01:08:03 PM »
Fourth option.  Make android altar servers.  They never sin.

That makes sense.  They would always be on time. Or trip over things.  Or get tempted by female android altar servers.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #294 on: September 19, 2013, 01:12:10 PM »
We should probably get rid of human priests too.  Sinless android priests would be much better.

While we are at it, we could get rid of all the human participants. 

The Android Orthodox Church: where no one sins EVER.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #295 on: September 19, 2013, 01:19:14 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 01:20:07 PM by hecma925 »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #296 on: September 19, 2013, 02:27:14 PM »
I am an altar server, often the only adult. Sometimes I have to train little boys. They have so much ADD that it boarders on demonic possession.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #297 on: September 19, 2013, 02:38:47 PM »
I am an altar server, often the only adult. Sometimes I have to train little boys. They have so much ADD that it boarders on demonic possession.

Are you allowed to smack them in the head when they're acting up or verbally haze them after Liturgy?  "Old country" methods really do work when they are tried and judiciously applied. 

But we are immigrant communities, so that still works for us, even though we are in the twilight of those days.  Soon, I think our more experienced servers will train the little ones in a typical American sissy style, and only God's tolerance will stop Archangel Michael from administering long overdue holy smackdowns.   
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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #298 on: September 19, 2013, 02:54:14 PM »
I am an altar server, often the only adult. Sometimes I have to train little boys. They have so much ADD that it boarders on demonic possession.

Oh man, My Dad and I are the only adults Altar Servers in our Church as well. My Dad focuses on the chants, I focus on keeping the 5 tweens I have to manage from burning the place down. :D

Offline Romaios

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #299 on: September 19, 2013, 02:55:04 PM »
I am an altar server, often the only adult. Sometimes I have to train little boys. They have so much ADD that it boarders on demonic possession.

Put them on Daniel's Babylonian diet ("pulse to eat, and water to drink")...  ;D

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #300 on: September 19, 2013, 03:36:02 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #301 on: September 19, 2013, 03:41:09 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D
God bless!

Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #302 on: September 19, 2013, 03:44:16 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D
Also, there is no coffee hour where new Android converts tell you of their journey of faith and give you a link to their blog.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #303 on: September 19, 2013, 03:45:10 PM »
Also, there is no coffee hour where new Android converts tell you of their journey of faith and give you a link to their blog.

Yes!

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #304 on: September 19, 2013, 05:50:17 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #305 on: September 19, 2013, 08:25:33 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.
God bless!

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #306 on: September 19, 2013, 08:31:28 PM »
At least this thread isn't totally derailed...

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #307 on: September 19, 2013, 09:56:15 PM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.

Time to call in the Terminator.  The end.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #308 on: September 20, 2013, 07:21:18 AM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.
You assume that all androids would go to the android church to begin with.  But a much more importan poit is:  would the "True, Genuine, Real, Android Orthodox Church" have female android altar servers?  The regular, ol' Android Orthodox Church never had them.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Arachne

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #309 on: September 20, 2013, 07:50:28 AM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.
You assume that all androids would go to the android church to begin with.  But a much more importan poit is:  would the "True, Genuine, Real, Android Orthodox Church" have female android altar servers?  The regular, ol' Android Orthodox Church never had them.

Would you object to a host of Number Sixes offering their liturgical services?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #310 on: September 20, 2013, 08:13:05 AM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.
You assume that all androids would go to the android church to begin with.  But a much more importan poit is:  would the "True, Genuine, Real, Android Orthodox Church" have female android altar servers?  The regular, ol' Android Orthodox Church never had them.

Would you object to a host of Number Sixes offering their liturgical services?

If in the Android Orthodox Church, only in the choir, maybe cleaning the altar area during the week, but MUST have a blessing by the Android Bishop.  Also, they must wear modest instrumentation.  In the Schismatic Androis Church?  They're heretics, so they do what they want.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Arachne

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #311 on: September 20, 2013, 08:15:07 AM »
Then there really could be perpetual liturgy; just 24 hours a day of non-stop worship.  Amazing!  And if a human comes in to Android Divine Liturgy, an elderly android will ask you, "Are you an android?"  Answering in the negative will give you the very authentic response, "What are you doing here?"

And, if that particular Android Church has, God forbid, pews - the Android's next statement to the human will be - " You are in my pew."
This is just silly.  Since it is an android church and there is no sin, OF COURSE there will be no pews.  :D

If I recall, there are lots of bad androids out there. Battlestar Gallactaca, a few on Hoth, the ice planet......
Point taken.  I would assume they would be part of the schismatic android church.
You assume that all androids would go to the android church to begin with.  But a much more importan poit is:  would the "True, Genuine, Real, Android Orthodox Church" have female android altar servers?  The regular, ol' Android Orthodox Church never had them.

Would you object to a host of Number Sixes offering their liturgical services?

If in the Android Orthodox Church, only in the choir, maybe cleaning the altar area during the week, but MUST have a blessing by the Android Bishop.  Also, they must wear modest instrumentation.  In the Schismatic Androis Church?  They're heretics, so they do what they want.

I'm sure Bishop John Cavill has preempted that already. There are not many doubts as to his canonicity, either.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #312 on: September 20, 2013, 08:19:22 AM »

He doesn't have a beard, so I doubt the canonicity of his episcopate.  Must be with the schismatics.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #313 on: September 20, 2013, 08:26:16 AM »
This thread has taken a fantastic turn for the better.  ;D
God bless!

Offline Arachne

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #314 on: September 20, 2013, 08:30:30 AM »
This thread has taken a fantastic turn for the better.  ;D

Geekery is like bacon - makes everything better.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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