Author Topic: Female Altar Servers??  (Read 48885 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #180 on: September 18, 2013, 02:07:50 AM »
Peter, we don't need apologists for every subject in every generation. Not do we need to continually re-articulate our position in every generation. Why do you think we have the Fathers? Or the history of the Church? Even so, it is enough to take the Church at her word unquestionably. When the Church says no altar girls, and no women priests, it means it and it means forever, no debate and no discussion, people can't question it and should only submit and accept it, or refuse it and leave.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #181 on: September 18, 2013, 02:16:54 AM »
Peter, we don't need apologists for every subject in every generation. Not do we need to continually re-articulate our position in every generation. Why do you think we have the Fathers?
Did the Fathers speak explicitly on every subject we could possibly ever face until Jesus returns in glory? Are we today deprived of the Holy Spirit that inspired the Apostles to write what we now recognize as Scripture and inspired the holy Fathers to interpret the Scriptures for us? Is not the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth the way He guided the Apostles and the Fathers into all truth? You reject the Protestant approach to Scripture, but at the same time you embrace an equally Protestant approach to the Fathers. The Spirit behind their prophetic ministry has never left us, though.

Or the history of the Church? Even so, it is enough to take the Church at her word unquestionably.
Maybe for you, but you've shown that you think only for yourself. What about those many others who are not convinced by the arguments you find so convincing? Are we to just leave them out in the cold?

When the Church says no altar girls, and no women priests, it means it and it means forever, no debate and no discussion,
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

people can't question it and should only submit and accept it, or refuse it and leave.
But people can question you. That's all I'm doing.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:19:56 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #182 on: September 18, 2013, 02:17:48 AM »

You think I care what you think? I never have before. So why should I start now?

You only care about what what PtA thinks, and about scoring cheap points off people to give you that warm inner glow, even if it means shutting your eyes and blocking your ears to what old crocks say who've been around the Church much, much longer than you.
You do realize that you're presuming to know my motives, motives I have never shared with you? You do realize how arrogant and rude that is? You're not a mind reader, LBK, so stop pretending to be one.

Quote
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK.

What is that supposed to mean?
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK, then this world would be much easier to convert. Most people do not think as you do, though. To persuade them, you need to tailor your message so it relates to what each person deems most important. Is this not the example St. Paul set for us in his preaching to the Athenians? Are you willing to take on the task of understanding other points of view so you can discern what arguments others will likely find most persuasive? Or would you rather hold to your quaint opinion that everyone needs to think as you do because of your advanced age and that you are right to judge as blind and deaf those who refuse to acquiesce?


Did you question your parents on every little aspect of your life when you were growing up, demanding written proofs and irrefutable evidence for their views and teachings? Was "Because I'm your mother" not enough for you?

Well, my dear PtA, the Church is our Mother, and we should listen to her teachings, whether written, oral, liturgical, historic or iconographic. She has unequivocally spoken across the centuries on the matter of altargirls, in demonstrating their complete absence from her ranks across eras and regions. You would do well to listen to your Mother.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #183 on: September 18, 2013, 02:19:16 AM »
Peter, we don't need apologists for every subject in every generation. Not do we need to continually re-articulate our position in every generation. Why do you think we have the Fathers? Or the history of the Church? Even so, it is enough to take the Church at her word unquestionably. When the Church says no altar girls, and no women priests, it means it and it means forever, no debate and no discussion, people can't question it and should only submit and accept it, or refuse it and leave.

You beat me to it.  ;)
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #184 on: September 18, 2013, 02:21:10 AM »
The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position.
Hasn't the Orthodox Church changed in some ways over the centuries? For example, I went to a Greek Orthodox liturgy in the USA and I didn't see any women wearing headcovering. Wasn't it true in the early Church that women were required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #185 on: September 18, 2013, 02:26:12 AM »

You think I care what you think? I never have before. So why should I start now?

You only care about what what PtA thinks, and about scoring cheap points off people to give you that warm inner glow, even if it means shutting your eyes and blocking your ears to what old crocks say who've been around the Church much, much longer than you.
You do realize that you're presuming to know my motives, motives I have never shared with you? You do realize how arrogant and rude that is? You're not a mind reader, LBK, so stop pretending to be one.

Quote
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK.

What is that supposed to mean?
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK, then this world would be much easier to convert. Most people do not think as you do, though. To persuade them, you need to tailor your message so it relates to what each person deems most important. Is this not the example St. Paul set for us in his preaching to the Athenians? Are you willing to take on the task of understanding other points of view so you can discern what arguments others will likely find most persuasive? Or would you rather hold to your quaint opinion that everyone needs to think as you do because of your advanced age and that you are right to judge as blind and deaf those who refuse to acquiesce?


Did you question your parents on every little aspect of your life when you were growing up, demanding written proofs and irrefutable evidence for their views and teachings?
Where have I ever demanded written proof and irrefutable evidence of the Church's teachings? All I've ever demanded on this forum is enough evidence to convince me that a lot of the dogmatic BS I see here really is the teaching of the Church.

Was "Because I'm your mother" not enough for you?
No.

Well, my dear PtA, the Church is our Mother, and we should listen to her teachings, whether written, oral, liturgical, historic or iconographic. She has unequivocally spoken across the centuries on the matter of altargirls, in demonstrating their complete absence from her ranks across eras and regions.
I'm not questioning the Church. I'm questioning you.

You would do well to listen to your Mother.
You, however, are not my mother.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:35:09 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #186 on: September 18, 2013, 02:32:26 AM »
The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position.
Hasn't the Orthodox Church changed in some ways over the centuries? For example, I went to a Greek Orthodox liturgy in the USA and I didn't see any women wearing headcovering. Wasn't it true in the early Church that women were required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?

Not the same at all. Head coverings and liturgical positions are extremely different.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #187 on: September 18, 2013, 02:36:40 AM »
Quote
Where have I ever demanded written proof and irrefutable evidence of the Church's teachings? All I've ever demanded on this forum is enough evidence to convince me that a lot of the dogmatic BS I see here really is the teaching of the Church.

You have questioned many a post of mine on what is proper and improper iconography, including asking for canons on this and that.

Quote
I'm not questioning my Mother. I'm questioning you.

In seeking "proof", you are indeed questioning your Mother the Church, who has spoken abundantly clearly on the matter of altargirls.

Quote
Quote
Was "Because I'm your mother" not enough for you?
No.

That speaks not only volumes, but a whole library. Not that I'm surprised. Pride is a particularly stubborn trait to subdue.

Quote
You, however, are not my mother.

I never said I was. I have simply expressed what our Mother has consistently taught and practiced over the millennia.
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #188 on: September 18, 2013, 02:38:43 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #189 on: September 18, 2013, 02:42:47 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

I'd love to see your evidence dating prior to the past few years for the presence of altargirls in non-monastic churches. Proof, or it didn't happen.  :police:
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:43:27 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #190 on: September 18, 2013, 02:49:12 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

I'd love to see your evidence dating prior to the past few years for the presence of altargirls in non-monastic churches. Proof, or it didn't happen.  :police:

More exceptions. Very "universal" and "irrefutable".
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #191 on: September 18, 2013, 02:50:19 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

I'd love to see your evidence dating prior to the past few years for the presence of altargirls in non-monastic churches. Proof, or it didn't happen.  :police:

More exceptions. Very "universal" and "irrefutable".

Please explain what you just said.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #192 on: September 18, 2013, 02:50:53 AM »
Quote
Where have I ever demanded written proof and irrefutable evidence of the Church's teachings? All I've ever demanded on this forum is enough evidence to convince me that a lot of the dogmatic BS I see here really is the teaching of the Church.

You have questioned many a post of mine on what is proper and improper iconography, including asking for canons on this and that.
Yes, I have. It was you I questioned, though, not the Church.

Quote
I'm not questioning my Mother. I'm questioning you.

In seeking "proof", you are indeed questioning your Mother the Church, who has spoken abundantly clearly on the matter of altargirls.
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church. Do you not see the difference? (Before you jump on the tangent of internet anonymity and claim that I'm speaking as a hypocrite because of my "attempts" to maintain my anonymity, do note that I am not all that hesitant to reveal information that could identify me apart from this forum. I'm actually not all that anonymous.) I seek proof from you that your teaching really is the teaching of the Church. That is all.

Quote
Quote
Was "Because I'm your mother" not enough for you?
No.

That speaks not only volumes, but a whole library. Not that I'm surprised. Pride is a particularly stubborn trait to subdue.
So I'm not supposed to follow St. John when he tells me to test the spirits to see if they really are from God? Why, then, should I accept blindly whatever my mom tells me? (If you really knew the woman I call Mom, you would recognize that, though I love her very much, I have great reason to never take at face value whatever "wisdom" she shares with me, which makes your analogy not particularly suitable to my life story.)

Quote
You, however, are not my mother.

I never said I was. I have simply expressed what our Mother has consistently taught and practiced over the millennia.
You have given me no reason to believe that, though. It's not enough for you to claim that what you teach is the teaching of the Church throughout all ages and expect me to believe you. Though I trust the Church, I don't trust you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:59:15 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #193 on: September 18, 2013, 02:53:29 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

Abuse isn't valid reason for "acceptance" or being valid contrary proof.

That's like being in preschool and shoving a kid off the playground equipment, using the excuse that its okay to do it because those kids over in the sandbox do it.

You can apply your irrelevant argument to concelebrating with Roman Catholics since some Priests have gone unpunished for it in the past, therefore by your logic, it must be acceptable and okay.

"Progressivism" looks for any hole it can find and tries to rip that hole as wide open as it can so it can let more if its infection in and kill the entire body. Anglicanism has already died to that infection, Orthodoxy won't do the same.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #194 on: September 18, 2013, 02:58:08 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
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Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #195 on: September 18, 2013, 02:59:02 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

I'd love to see your evidence dating prior to the past few years for the presence of altargirls in non-monastic churches. Proof, or it didn't happen.  :police:

More exceptions. Very "universal" and "irrefutable".

Please explain what you just said.

In your language "irrefutable" and "universal" means "there are proofs for other practice but I close my eyes, shut my ears and ignore it".
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #196 on: September 18, 2013, 03:02:48 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:03:15 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #197 on: September 18, 2013, 03:07:41 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.

It's not really irrefutable and universal with proofs for contrarywise practice.

I'd love to see your evidence dating prior to the past few years for the presence of altargirls in non-monastic churches. Proof, or it didn't happen.  :police:

More exceptions. Very "universal" and "irrefutable".

Please explain what you just said.

In your language "irrefutable" and "universal" means "there are proofs for other practice but I close my eyes, shut my ears and ignore it".

1. You know as well as I do that the monastic practice of older nuns and abbesses as altarservers is not in question or dispute.

2. The appearance of altargirls, either pre-teen or teenaged, in vestments, is very, very recent, likely five or ten years at the most, and in isolated instances. This hardly constitutes "proof" of an established, accepted and widespread practice. Moreover, at least one jurisdiction has formally denounced the practice, to nip in the bud any possible spread of this novelty into its churches.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #198 on: September 18, 2013, 03:10:48 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #199 on: September 18, 2013, 03:21:03 AM »
The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position.
Hasn't the Orthodox Church changed in some ways over the centuries? For example, I went to a Greek Orthodox liturgy in the USA and I didn't see any women wearing headcovering. Wasn't it true in the early Church that women were required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?

Not the same at all. Head coverings and liturgical positions are extremely different.
I didn't say it was the same. I said it appears to be a change in Church teaching about whether or not women are required to wear headcovering in Church. You do agree then that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching on this point even though you said earlier that the Church will never change?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #200 on: September 18, 2013, 03:28:29 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
LBK, I didn't call you a liar or claim that your testimony here is false. All I said is that I don't trust you. Again, how you choose to read that statement is up to you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:29:31 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #201 on: September 18, 2013, 03:36:13 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
LBK, I didn't call you a liar or claim that your testimony here is false. All I said is that I don't trust you. Again, how you choose to read that statement is up to you.

OED definitions of trust:

 noun:

    firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something

 verb

    believe in the reliability, truth, or ability of

Still want to argue you're not calling me a liar or that my testimony is false?

« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:38:10 AM by LBK »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2013, 03:44:34 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
LBK, I didn't call you a liar or claim that your testimony here is false. All I said is that I don't trust you. Again, how you choose to read that statement is up to you.

OED definitions of trust:

 noun:

    firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something

 verb

    believe in the reliability, truth, or ability of

Still want to argue you're not calling me a liar?


Believe what you want, LBK. If you refuse to take my words at face value and insist on redefining them so they say what you want them to say, then there's really not much I can do to change your mind. Do try to understand what I am attempting to communicate, though.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:46:01 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2013, 03:54:04 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
LBK, I didn't call you a liar or claim that your testimony here is false. All I said is that I don't trust you. Again, how you choose to read that statement is up to you.

OED definitions of trust:

 noun:

    firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something

 verb

    believe in the reliability, truth, or ability of

Still want to argue you're not calling me a liar?


Believe what you want, LBK. If you refuse to take my words at face value and insist on redefining them so they say what you want them to say, then there's really not much I can do to change your mind. Do try to understand what I am attempting to communicate, though.

Not trusting someone means you don't believe them or their words, as any good dictionary clearly spells out. I have indeed taken your words at "face value", and your words accuse me of not telling the truth. No two ways about it.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2013, 04:00:50 AM »
Quote
In seeking proof from you, though, I'm seeking proof only from an anonymous internet yahoo who claims to be speaking for the Church.

Quote
I trust the Church. I don't trust you.

Cowardly and churlish responses, and ones which paint me as a liar and a bearer of false witness. Well done, you've covered yourself in glory. Enjoy it.  :P  >:(  ::)
I take responsibility for my statements that I don't trust you. What you do with those statements is up to you.

So you continue to call me a liar, that my testimony here is false. Nice.
LBK, I didn't call you a liar or claim that your testimony here is false. All I said is that I don't trust you. Again, how you choose to read that statement is up to you.

OED definitions of trust:

 noun:

    firm belief in the reliability, truth, or ability of someone or something

 verb

    believe in the reliability, truth, or ability of

Still want to argue you're not calling me a liar?


Believe what you want, LBK. If you refuse to take my words at face value and insist on redefining them so they say what you want them to say, then there's really not much I can do to change your mind. Do try to understand what I am attempting to communicate, though.

Not trusting someone means you don't believe them or their words, as any good dictionary clearly spells out. I have indeed taken your words at "face value", and your words accuse me of not telling the truth. No two ways about it.
LBK, I will define for you what my words mean. If you choose to believe your definition over mine, than that's your problem. I have nothing more to say on this matter.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #205 on: September 18, 2013, 04:10:17 AM »

LBK, I will define for you what my words mean. If you choose to believe your definition over mine, than that's your problem. I have nothing more to say on this matter.

Ah, the stuff of fairy tales! With thanks to Lewis Carroll:

“Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.”

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #206 on: September 18, 2013, 06:30:35 AM »
Progressivism has no place in the Orthodox Church, people just need to accept that and unquestionably accept the Church's teachings. They either ought to abandon "progressivism" or do as I said earlier, and go somewhere where they can be "progressive", like the dead, but "progressive" Anglican communion.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #207 on: September 18, 2013, 08:02:03 AM »
What the heck is going on out here! You kids knock off all this racket or I'm calling the cops!  And get off my lawn!

God bless!

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #208 on: September 18, 2013, 08:12:25 AM »
What the heck is going on out here! You kids knock off all this racket or I'm calling the cops!  And get off my lawn!



Who are you calling "kid", kid?  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #209 on: September 18, 2013, 09:05:19 AM »
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

My take on is that nobody is to enter the Altar (male or female) that doesn't have business and permission from priest/bishop to be there.

Additionally, why would anyone ever think that the Church stated it was acceptable for girls to be altar servers?  Do we have any proof of them doing so?  Or female priests?

Granted there were deaconesses, however, with time, even that role has mostly died out.

If women were meant to be priests, you had better believe that they would still be priests today.  After all, it was the women who stood by Christ's side when the men ran for cover.  It was the women who saw him crucified, and stood watch at his tomb.  It was the women who first met the newly risen Christ, and spread the good news to the men.

Without doubt, women play an important role within the Church, however, with all the brave women around Him, Christ never chose one to be His Apostle.  He never included these faithful followers in his 12-man fold.

While women preached and were responsible for saving thousands of souls, they were never elevated to bishops in the early Church.

We do not need "written" proof that the Church does not support women as priests, we have thousands of years of Tradition to back this up.

This is a nonsensical argument.  This is a modern prideful disagreement.  Feminism at it's worst.

I can say this because I really, really, really would LOVE to be an "altar boy", but, I can't....and you will never hear me saying it's not fair, or this is a male innovation to keep women submissive, etc.  I cannot because God has so decided, by not personally choosing a woman to be one of His followers and disciples.

As I've said before, there's plenty of work on the other side of the icon screen that needs to be done.  Women are certainly not left "out"....we just have our roles, as men have theirs.  Men will never be able to give birth, and women will never be priests.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #210 on: September 18, 2013, 09:16:55 AM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Then it should be easy for you to articulate your case against it.  And yet, you seem to prefer insisting on "The Holy Orthodox Church says 'no' so the answer is 'no' and if you don't like it then tough".  Why be so insecure?  Are you afraid Orthodoxy is not true?    

If Orthodoxy ever officially and universally approves altar girls, female priests and homosexual marriages, then it clearly isn't true, and never was.
Why the hell are you identifying altar girls with gay marriage? ??? Do you really buy the nonsense that blessing girls to serve in the altar is going to lead us down the slippery slope to gay marriage? Altar girls and gay marriage have nothing to do with each other, and your slippery slope argument is nothing but a fallacy.

As it stands, this is simply one heresy and abuse that is isolated and purported by a small fraction of Orthodox Bishops.
Prove that the blessing of altar girls is a heresy and liturgical abuse. If you can't do this, then nothing else you say here can be taken seriously.

Quite right, while certitude is a necessary component of faith, strong Faith does not preclude or fear the necessity to lay out an argument to prove/explain/justify one's hypothesis. I'm not arguing in favor of a scholastic approach, but rather , as PtA is positing, the need for more than a reflexive,"in your face, I'm right ,you're a fool" approach to Christian apologetics.

If PtA is wrong, seminary could be shortened to a set of flash cards with snappy answers and six months of rubrics.

Users here seem to forget that Orthodox believers make up only a portion of posters and a smaller portion of readers and inquirers. When we resort to playground like arguing or stopping discussion by internet yelling and figurative "fingers in the ear" just what sort of church are we portraying?

Sometimes we accept things because we are told they are so, not necessarily because they are so. It's necessary to know, and be able to explain that distinction without resorting to smug condescension.

With respect to altar girls, we don't have them in ACROD or in most of our parishes across the globe and I don't support the idea. But, if you ever had a daughter who asked you, tears in eyes, "why can't I daddy", you would know more than to huff and puff about it. I understand why we do not and I accept that, but folks, simply saying "because" won't suffice as an answer.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 09:30:35 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2013, 09:36:21 AM »
There are few posters on this forum that really put a great deal of thought into their responses and pod is one of them.  Thank you for that answer.  :)
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #212 on: September 18, 2013, 09:49:18 AM »
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

My take on is that nobody is to enter the Altar (male or female) that doesn't have business and permission from priest/bishop to be there.

Additionally, why would anyone ever think that the Church stated it was acceptable for girls to be altar servers?  Do we have any proof of them doing so?  Or female priests?

Granted there were deaconesses, however, with time, even that role has mostly died out.

If women were meant to be priests, you had better believe that they would still be priests today.  After all, it was the women who stood by Christ's side when the men ran for cover.  It was the women who saw him crucified, and stood watch at his tomb.  It was the women who first met the newly risen Christ, and spread the good news to the men.

Without doubt, women play an important role within the Church, however, with all the brave women around Him, Christ never chose one to be His Apostle.  He never included these faithful followers in his 12-man fold.

While women preached and were responsible for saving thousands of souls, they were never elevated to bishops in the early Church.

We do not need "written" proof that the Church does not support women as priests, we have thousands of years of Tradition to back this up.

This is a nonsensical argument.  This is a modern prideful disagreement.  Feminism at it's worst.

I can say this because I really, really, really would LOVE to be an "altar boy", but, I can't....and you will never hear me saying it's not fair, or this is a male innovation to keep women submissive, etc.  I cannot because God has so decided, by not personally choosing a woman to be one of His followers and disciples.

As I've said before, there's plenty of work on the other side of the icon screen that needs to be done.  Women are certainly not left "out"....we just have our roles, as men have theirs.  Men will never be able to give birth, and women will never be priests.

I'm sorry, Liza, but you're just trotting out the same hackneyed "we've always done it this way" arguments for which I called Devin out. Your reply also shows no real understanding of the issues I'm raising about your and Devin's approach to this. For one, I never claimed that the Church ever said that altar girls are now acceptable. I never claimed that I even think that. I understand your answer, but I don't think it's relevant to my questions.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 09:51:29 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #213 on: September 18, 2013, 09:52:27 AM »

I'll admit that I haven't read the entire 5 pages.

What was your question?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #214 on: September 18, 2013, 10:02:05 AM »

I'll admit that I haven't read the entire 5 pages.

What was your question?
Devin has asserted repeatedly that the Church says no to altar girls and that the practice is therefore a heresy and liturgical abuse. I've asked him to prove this repeated assertion, not because I agree or disagree with him, but because of his willingness to condemn to the outer darkness anyone who does disagree with him. Devin, however, refuses to ever answer with anything more than, "The Church said it. I believe it. That settles it. If you don't like that, then leave. END OF DISCUSSION!" This is nothing more than another repeat of the assertion I'm asking him to prove.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:07:47 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #215 on: September 18, 2013, 10:13:17 AM »

So, let's flip that coin over....is there any doctrine or previous practice that proves that the Church supports a female clergy (beyond monastics)?

All we have to go on is Tradition.

There are many practices we find in our churches, and in our Church, which we cannot corroborate with written tomes of wisdom.  This however, does not negate these practices.

I understand what you are trying to get at.  You are not on the "side" of women clergy (or against), you simply want someone to come up with the end-all argument that would simply put the entire thing to rest, once and for all.

Good luck finding that, though.  :)
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #216 on: September 18, 2013, 10:17:27 AM »

So, let's flip that coin over....is there any doctrine or previous practice that proves that the Church supports a female clergy (beyond monastics)?

All we have to go on is Tradition.

There are many practices we find in our churches, and in our Church, which we cannot corroborate with written tomes of wisdom.  This however, does not negate these practices.

I understand what you are trying to get at.  You are not on the "side" of women clergy (or against), you simply want someone to come up with the end-all argument that would simply put the entire thing to rest, once and for all.
No, I just want Devin to back up his bluster.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #217 on: September 18, 2013, 10:35:59 AM »
Some nights, this place is quite dull.  Apparently I'm asleep on the other nights.  :P

All the servers I have ever seen receive a blessing to vest before putting on the stichar. In fact, so do deacons. I have also noticed, there are unmarried men that receive a blessing to vest as a subdeacon without having been tonsured as a subdeacon.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm aware of servers, minor clergy, and deacons receiving a blessing to vest before vesting.  But that practice doesn't really distinguish between clergy and laity acting in clerical roles: everyone gets that blessing.  

What I'm saying is that those "servers" really ought to be "ordained" before commencing altar service.  They should be set apart for that ministry by prayer and by an act of the Church (ordination/tonsure/whateveryouprefer at the hands of the bishop) before the community (so that there is mutual accountability and responsibility).  It doesn't matter to me if ordaining a five year old candle-bearer sounds silly because of the talk of "ordination".  I think it's sillier to allow lay people to perform clerical roles as if "a blessing" suddenly makes it OK.  

Allowing unmarried men to vest as subdeacons even though they're not subdeacons is particularly problematic IMO.  Why not ordain them as subdeacons and dispense them from the prohibition on marrying afterwards?  Or, if you want to keep that prohibition, then don't ordain them as subdeacons, but they shouldn't dress as subdeacons either.  What's the point?  At a hierarchical Liturgy with no deacon(s), priests fulfill those roles without vesting down, why can't readers or candle-bearers fulfill subdiaconal roles without vesting up?  

I think a lot of the "controversy" (if it is really that) surrounding the idea of female altar servers would be moot in cathedrals and parish churches if we simply did what the Church originally set out and ordain performers of liturgical roles to the appropriate order.  At least you're not defending why unordained laymen can do things but unordained laywomen can't--it then becomes solidly a "Why can't women be ordained?" issue.    
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #218 on: September 18, 2013, 10:39:12 AM »
I think a lot of the "controversy" (if it is really that) surrounding the idea of female altar servers would be moot in cathedrals and parish churches if we simply did what the Church originally set out and ordain performers of liturgical roles to the appropriate order.  At least you're not defending why unordained laymen can do things but unordained laywomen can't--it then becomes solidly a "Why can't women be ordained?" issue.    

Excellent point.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline genesisone

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #219 on: September 18, 2013, 10:39:36 AM »
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

If women were meant to be priests, you had better believe that they would still be priests today.  After all, it was the women who stood by Christ's side when the men ran for cover.  It was the women who saw him crucified, and stood watch at his tomb.  It was the women who first met the newly risen Christ, and spread the good news to the men.

Without doubt, women play an important role within the Church, however, with all the brave women around Him, Christ never chose one to be His Apostle.  He never included these faithful followers in his 12-man fold.

While women preached and were responsible for saving thousands of souls, they were never elevated to bishops in the early Church.

.../snip/...

As I've said before, there's plenty of work on the other side of the icon screen that needs to be done.  Women are certainly not left "out"....we just have our roles, as men have theirs.  Men will never be able to give birth, and women will never be priests.

I agree with and support what you've said in the entire post from which I have taken an excerpt to add:
Though not Apostles, there are female saints known as "Equal to an Apostle". St Mary Magdalene and St Nina of Georgia are two who come to mind right away. Women have a valuable role in proclaiming the Gospel to others, perhaps in ways that, in general, men are unable to manage. May they be encouraged to continue their ministries.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #220 on: September 18, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

If women were meant to be priests, you had better believe that they would still be priests today.  After all, it was the women who stood by Christ's side when the men ran for cover.  It was the women who saw him crucified, and stood watch at his tomb.  It was the women who first met the newly risen Christ, and spread the good news to the men.

Without doubt, women play an important role within the Church, however, with all the brave women around Him, Christ never chose one to be His Apostle.  He never included these faithful followers in his 12-man fold.

While women preached and were responsible for saving thousands of souls, they were never elevated to bishops in the early Church.

.../snip/...

As I've said before, there's plenty of work on the other side of the icon screen that needs to be done.  Women are certainly not left "out"....we just have our roles, as men have theirs.  Men will never be able to give birth, and women will never be priests.

I agree with and support what you've said in the entire post from which I have taken an excerpt to add:
Though not Apostles, there are female saints known as "Equal to an Apostle". St Mary Magdalene and St Nina of Georgia are two who come to mind right away. Women have a valuable role in proclaiming the Gospel to others, perhaps in ways that, in general, men are unable to manage. May they be encouraged to continue their ministries.

If you raise "Equal to the Apostles" as a defense here, you must be prepared to explain what that means in Orthodox terms. Our non Orthodox "progressive" brother's and sisters will throw that right back at you for among the Church's strongest arguments for a male priesthood is the male exclusivity among Jesus' Apostles.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #221 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:16 AM »
The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

To be fair, this isn't exactly true.  As you noted in a subsequent post, nuns perform some of these functions in their monastery church(es), whether or not they are also ordained as deaconesses.  Of course, that is generally because of the absence of men to serve, but I've seen it even when there are men to serve.  In any case, the allowance for this is ample proof that the concept of an "altar girl" cannot be refuted simply because of some idea that servers always and everywhere must be male.

If we don't see female altar servers in cathedrals and parishes "across every era and region" throughout the centuries, I don't think it's because "women can't do it".  First of all, in a mixed community, you may not have to consider the women if there are enough men.  But we look for men precisely because these liturgical roles all require the appropriate ordination.  If we just left it at that, as I've said before, I think there wouldn't be much of an issue.    

But as it is, we've justified allowing males to perform roles for which they weren't ordained as if they were ordained by appealing to their "potential" to be ordained later, and that's very weak.  That lack of "potential" to be ordained doesn't prevent nuns (who are all laywomen for the most part) from serving in their monasteries; why should it stop altar girls?  If "potential" is enough to justify something, why stop with altar boys?  Why not allow the non-Orthodox to commune because they have the potential to become Orthodox later?  Why not assign a diocese to a hieromonk because he has the potential to be elected and ordained as a bishop?  Why can't the unmarried sleep around because they have the potential to marry one of them later?  "Potential" is a weak argument.  

The problem, as I see it, is that we have ample evidence of the allowance of unordained males to serve at the altar in various liturgical roles in many regions and going back further in time than the five or ten years someone argued in this thread was the case for altar girls.  But we've established this practice on a very weak foundation, and now we're having to defend it as if, by its "antiquity", it is an unquestionable part of Orthodox tradition.  I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

I think we need to discuss how it came to be that unordained males were allowed to serve in liturgical roles without ordination.  How far back does that go?  What were the reasons for it?  How was that innovation received, if it in fact was an innovation?  How does this relate to the ordained ranks we do have which perform the same tasks?  I think pursuing this trajectory is better than the back-and-forth evident in this thread.  Many of us are speaking without knowing (or wanting to know) the facts.        
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline genesisone

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #222 on: September 18, 2013, 11:11:10 AM »
But you've never done anything to prove that the Church says no altar girls. It's not enough to merely assert that she does.

If women were meant to be priests, you had better believe that they would still be priests today.  After all, it was the women who stood by Christ's side when the men ran for cover.  It was the women who saw him crucified, and stood watch at his tomb.  It was the women who first met the newly risen Christ, and spread the good news to the men.

Without doubt, women play an important role within the Church, however, with all the brave women around Him, Christ never chose one to be His Apostle.  He never included these faithful followers in his 12-man fold.

While women preached and were responsible for saving thousands of souls, they were never elevated to bishops in the early Church.

.../snip/...

As I've said before, there's plenty of work on the other side of the icon screen that needs to be done.  Women are certainly not left "out"....we just have our roles, as men have theirs.  Men will never be able to give birth, and women will never be priests.

I agree with and support what you've said in the entire post from which I have taken an excerpt to add:
Though not Apostles, there are female saints known as "Equal to an Apostle". St Mary Magdalene and St Nina of Georgia are two who come to mind right away. Women have a valuable role in proclaiming the Gospel to others, perhaps in ways that, in general, men are unable to manage. May they be encouraged to continue their ministries.

If you raise "Equal to the Apostles" as a defense here, you must be prepared to explain what that means in Orthodox terms. Our non Orthodox "progressive" brother's and sisters will throw that right back at you for among the Church's strongest arguments for a male priesthood is the male exclusivity among Jesus' Apostles.
No. Not a defence at all for females serving in liturgical roles that are assigned to men. Precisely the opposite. I'm trying to point out that women have valuable ministries without being in those roles, and that the roles women play deserve to be honoured and recognized for what they are.

Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #223 on: September 18, 2013, 11:12:30 AM »
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As you noted in a subsequent post, nuns perform some of these functions in their monastery church(es), whether or not they are also ordained as deaconesses.

These are nuns past a certain age, usually 40, not young girls, and, if I'm not mistaken, are not vested. Quite a difference.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #224 on: September 18, 2013, 11:15:38 AM »
The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position.
Hasn't the Orthodox Church changed in some ways over the centuries? For example, I went to a Greek Orthodox liturgy in the USA and I didn't see any women wearing headcovering. Wasn't it true in the early Church that women were required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?

Not the same at all. Head coverings and liturgical positions are extremely different.

I would really like to hear your reasons for believing this.  St Paul makes a fairly strong case for head coverings.  In his body of writings, he's clearly capable of distinguishing what teaching is "from him" versus what is "from the Lord", and his teaching on head coverings for women certainly seems to lean more in the "from the Lord" category.  On the other hand, you won't find anything in the NT about candle-bearers, readers, and subdeacons.  Head coverings would seem to be a bigger deal than altar servers, and yet you seem to feel the opposite if I'm reading you correctly.  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).