Author Topic: Female Altar Servers??  (Read 49291 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2013, 05:05:12 PM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #136 on: September 17, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2013, 05:38:51 PM »
The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Actually that picture shows it hasn't definitely proven anything.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2013, 05:44:39 PM »
The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Actually that picture shows it hasn't definitely proven anything.

That picture shows a rare abuse being permitted by Bishops. You act like just because the Patriarch of Antioch was there, that means it must be accepted. It's 1 Bishop, or even just a couple, versus the over 700 Orthodox Bishops across the world, who would never permit this kind of abuse.

Would you also accept it if a Patriarch allowed one or two of his Priests to concelebrate with a Roman Catholic?

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »
AFAIR there were similar pictures taken during Patr. Cyril's visit to Damascus so 2 patriarchates do not see anything wrong with it.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2013, 05:49:56 PM »
AFAIR there were similar pictures taken during Patr. Cyril's visit to Damascus so 2 patriarchates do not see anything wrong with it.

AFAIR? Your word isn't worth anything, unless you actually have proof, as far as we are concerned, it didn't happen.

Also, Patriarch Kirill isn't going to tell Patriarch John X what to do in his own jurisdiction.

You absolutely fail at your arguments Michal, just stop now.

Offline mike

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #141 on: September 17, 2013, 05:54:56 PM »
AFAIR? Your word isn't worth anything, unless you actually have proof, as far as we are concerned, it didn't happen.


source: https://mospat.ru/en/2011/11/13/news52076/
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #142 on: September 17, 2013, 06:28:47 PM »
AFAIR? Your word isn't worth anything, unless you actually have proof, as far as we are concerned, it didn't happen.


source: https://mospat.ru/en/2011/11/13/news52076/

And? As I said, that doesn't signify approval by Patriarch Kirill, he can't and wouldn't tell Patriarch John what to do in his own jurisdiction.

Also, just because 1 Patriarch approves doesn't mean anything. Ever hear of the Council of Florence? All but 1 Bishop at that Council fell to Satan. How about Arianism? Nestorianism? They had many, many Bishops fall to those heresies. This hasn't reached nearly that level and probably never will, but Bishops fall and Bishops abuse the Church.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #143 on: September 17, 2013, 07:04:54 PM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Then it should be easy for you to articulate your case against it.  And yet, you seem to prefer insisting on "The Holy Orthodox Church says 'no' so the answer is 'no' and if you don't like it then tough".  Why be so insecure?  Are you afraid Orthodoxy is not true?   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #144 on: September 18, 2013, 12:29:25 AM »
Of course, it's very simple. Men and women are different, duh! A woman lives out the vocation of womanhood and a man lives out the vocation of manhood.

Women can't be priests. Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest. Along the same lines, a recently baptized male child is taken into the altar and around it. A female child is not. This images the possibility that one day, the male child might be a priest.

No Orthodox Christian has to prove anything on this matter. If any Bishop or Priest or Patriarch wants to allow this foreign practice of females being "altar servers", then fine. But it's wrong and unprecedented. It's just sad that these young ladies now have to live with this very confusing experience because clergy missed an opportunity to properly catechize them.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #145 on: September 18, 2013, 12:31:14 AM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.
YOU are not the Church; therefore, I am free to question YOU. I also don't have good reason to believe that you truly represent the Church on this issue. Can you prove to me that the Church really has proven its case against women acolytes, women deacons, and the like?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #146 on: September 18, 2013, 12:34:22 AM »
Of course, it's very simple. Men and women are different, duh! A woman lives out the vocation of womanhood and a man lives out the vocation of manhood.

Women can't be priests. Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest. Along the same lines, a recently baptized male child is taken into the altar and around it. A female child is not. This images the possibility that one day, the male child might be a priest.

No Orthodox Christian has to prove anything on this matter. If any Bishop or Priest or Patriarch wants to allow this foreign practice of females being "altar servers", then fine. But it's wrong and unprecedented. It's just sad that these young ladies now have to live with this very confusing experience because clergy missed an opportunity to properly catechize them.
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Of course, it's very simple. Men and women are different, duh! A woman lives out the vocation of womanhood and a man lives out the vocation of manhood.
What is a woman's vocation? What is a man's vocation?

Women can't be priests.
Why not?

Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest.
Why can't it just be seen as a distinct role unto itself? Why must the roles of acolyte, reader, subdeacon, deacon, etc., always be seen as steps to the priesthood?

Along the same lines, a recently baptized male child is taken into the altar and around it. A female child is not.
Why not?

This images the possibility that one day, the male child might be a priest.
And why not the female child?

No Orthodox Christian has to prove anything on this matter.
Since so many people nowadays are not convinced that the Church has really examined all the theological issues surrounding female ordination or articulated a sound defense of the male-only priesthood, I think she does have something to prove on this matter. I say this as a supporter of male-only ordination. Is our Orthodox Faith so insecure that it will crumble in the face of serious questioning? If not, then why do so many refuse to even entertain the possibility of questions regarding our current practices?

If any Bishop or Priest or Patriarch wants to allow this foreign practice of females being "altar servers", then fine. But it's wrong and unprecedented.
Why is it wrong? Simply saying so doesn't make it so. If you're going to call the practice wrong, you take upon yourself the burden of proving it wrong.

It's just sad that these young ladies now have to live with this very confusing experience because clergy missed an opportunity to properly catechize them.
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 12:51:01 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #147 on: September 18, 2013, 12:35:54 AM »
88Devin12,

To be honest, you are just going to be ripped to shreds here at this forum. It saddens me that that is the case, but having read through this thread, it's obvious.

What's the gain when so many harsh comments are coming your way.

It's obvious that the Church has long held that women can't serve, you and I both know it. Don't let a few internet comments and silly dress up pictures ruffle your feathers.

Besides, there is little nourish fruit is coming from this thread.

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #148 on: September 18, 2013, 12:36:34 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #149 on: September 18, 2013, 12:45:51 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2013, 12:48:04 AM »
AFAIR there were similar pictures taken during Patr. Cyril's visit to Damascus so 2 patriarchates do not see anything wrong with it.

AFAIR? Your word isn't worth anything, unless you actually have proof, as far as we are concerned, it didn't happen.
Who's this "we": me, myself, and I? Unless you have split personality disorder, you have no call for using the royal "we". You speak only for yourself.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2013, 12:49:18 AM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Then it should be easy for you to articulate your case against it.  And yet, you seem to prefer insisting on "The Holy Orthodox Church says 'no' so the answer is 'no' and if you don't like it then tough".  Why be so insecure?  Are you afraid Orthodoxy is not true?   

If Orthodoxy ever officially and universally approves altar girls, female priests and homosexual marriages, then it clearly isn't true, and never was.

As it stands, this is simply one heresy and abuse that is isolated and purported by a small fraction of Orthodox Bishops.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #152 on: September 18, 2013, 12:50:03 AM »
Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  First of all, the minor orders are not merely steps toward priesthood, but are also ministries in and of themselves.  Secondly, "blessing" an altar server to "act" as an acolyte is as silly as "blessing" meat to "act" as broccoli.  

Those who serve at the altar should be ordained for such tasks.  Then, eliminating the claim of excluding women, it becomes a matter of prohibiting unordained people of both sexes from serving at the altar.  As it is now in some traditions, we are left to explain how male genitals are an absolute bare minimum requirement for altar service, but somehow ordination is not as important.

  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #153 on: September 18, 2013, 12:54:57 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #154 on: September 18, 2013, 12:56:56 AM »
You can't tell me any of you actually think that women should be allowed to be vested and be acolytes.
Why not? You're not presenting a good case for why women should NOT be allowed to be vested and be acolytes. The fact that you're personally offended by such a practice and think it should be condemned is not evidence enough against the practice.

The Orthodox Church has proven time and time again the case against it, that's why it isn't done and you should just accept it and not question what the holy church has said.

Then it should be easy for you to articulate your case against it.  And yet, you seem to prefer insisting on "The Holy Orthodox Church says 'no' so the answer is 'no' and if you don't like it then tough".  Why be so insecure?  Are you afraid Orthodoxy is not true?   

If Orthodoxy ever officially and universally approves altar girls, female priests and homosexual marriages, then it clearly isn't true, and never was.
Why the hell are you identifying altar girls with gay marriage? ??? Do you really buy the nonsense that blessing girls to serve in the altar is going to lead us down the slippery slope to gay marriage? Altar girls and gay marriage have nothing to do with each other, and your slippery slope argument is nothing but a fallacy.

As it stands, this is simply one heresy and abuse that is isolated and purported by a small fraction of Orthodox Bishops.
Prove that the blessing of altar girls is a heresy and liturgical abuse. If you can't do this, then nothing else you say here can be taken seriously.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #155 on: September 18, 2013, 12:58:04 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #156 on: September 18, 2013, 12:58:56 AM »
Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  First of all, the minor orders are not merely steps toward priesthood, but are also ministries in and of themselves.  Secondly, "blessing" an altar server to "act" as an acolyte is as silly as "blessing" meat to "act" as broccoli.  

Those who serve at the altar should be ordained for such tasks.  Then, eliminating the claim of excluding women, it becomes a matter of prohibiting unordained people of both sexes from serving at the altar.  As it is now in some traditions, we are left to explain how male genitals are an absolute bare minimum requirement for altar service, but somehow ordination is not as important.

  

 :) Okie-dokie.

All the servers I have ever seen receive a blessing to vest before putting on the stichar. In fact, so do deacons. I have also noticed, there are unmarried men that receive a blessing to vest as a subdeacon without having been tonsured as a subdeacon.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #157 on: September 18, 2013, 01:00:21 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.
No. You're the one making bare faced assertions here. You're the one insinuating that some have not been properly catechized. If you see such a problem, then maybe you'll also be willing to take upon yourself the task of correcting it. If your claims beg the question, then it's your job to prove them true.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #158 on: September 18, 2013, 01:01:17 AM »
Altar servers are blessed to act as acolyte. It is a step to possibly being a priest.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  First of all, the minor orders are not merely steps toward priesthood, but are also ministries in and of themselves.  Secondly, "blessing" an altar server to "act" as an acolyte is as silly as "blessing" meat to "act" as broccoli.  

Those who serve at the altar should be ordained for such tasks.  Then, eliminating the claim of excluding women, it becomes a matter of prohibiting unordained people of both sexes from serving at the altar.  As it is now in some traditions, we are left to explain how male genitals are an absolute bare minimum requirement for altar service, but somehow ordination is not as important.

  

 :) Okie-dokie.

All the servers I have ever seen receive a blessing to vest before putting on the stichar. In fact, so do deacons. I have also noticed, there are unmarried men that receive a blessing to vest as a subdeacon without having been tonsured as a subdeacon.

This is exactly my observation in my fifty years in Orthodoxy, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #159 on: September 18, 2013, 01:01:33 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Some here need someone to play devil's advocate to challenge them to think outside their trite conventions. ;)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #160 on: September 18, 2013, 01:02:43 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Some here need someone to play devil's advocate to challenge them to think outside their trite conventions. ;)

So you are supporting the legitimacy of altargirls. O-oooo-kay.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #161 on: September 18, 2013, 01:02:52 AM »
Quote

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)

If I was 88Devon12, I wouldn't be convinced by the kind of brutalizing argumentation and commentary I have seen directed at him. But hey, maybe you can brutalize some people into believing something about the veracity of an opinion about the Orthodox Faith. Don't know why anyone would want to though.

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #162 on: September 18, 2013, 01:03:36 AM »
Quote
No. You're the one making bare faced assertions here. You're the one insinuating that some have not been properly catechized. If you see such a problem, then maybe you'll also be willing to take upon yourself the task of correcting it. If your claims beg the question, then it's your job to prove them true.

Just Nope.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #163 on: September 18, 2013, 01:11:41 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Some here need someone to play devil's advocate to challenge them to think outside their trite conventions. ;)

So you are supporting the legitimacy of altargirls. O-oooo-kay.
Only if you want to read me that way, LBK. ;) The truth be told, when it comes to Church practices, I support the traditional ways unless a very strong case can be made that we need to deviate from them. I just think we can do much more to articulate our reasons for doing things the way we do than resort to the cop-out, "we've always done it this way!" If I can inspire others to construct a sound defense of the Faith we practice so that we can be more effective at persuading others to embrace it, then I will have accomplished my mission.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:14:05 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #164 on: September 18, 2013, 01:14:55 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to, considering the OCA hierarchy has recently (last decade) openly condemned altar girls.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #165 on: September 18, 2013, 01:16:34 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to, considering the OCA hierarchy has recently (last decade) openly condemned altar girls.
You assUme much that isn't true. My advice to you: don't put words into my mouth. It's rude.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #166 on: September 18, 2013, 01:17:19 AM »
PeterTheAleut,
If you had to find a line of apologetics to support 88Devin12's view that altar servers can only be male and not female and that women cannot serve at the altar (in this or other fashion), what would you say?

Perhaps in this way you "can inspire [88Devin12] to construct a sound defense of the Faith we practice so that [he] can be more effective at persuading others outside our Church, [so that he can help you say] I...have accomplished my mission."
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:17:30 AM by LakaYaRabb »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #167 on: September 18, 2013, 01:18:59 AM »
PeterTheAleut,
If you had to find a line of apologetics to support 88Devin12's view that altar servers can only be male and not female and that women cannot serve at the altar (in this or other fashion), what would you say?
I'd say that I'm not going to do his homework for him.
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Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #168 on: September 18, 2013, 01:21:32 AM »
Quote
I'd say that I'm not going to do his homework for him.

It's hard to be inspiring all the time to some people, or some of the time to all people, or just some times to some people. Gosh, It's just hard to be inspiring at all!


Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #169 on: September 18, 2013, 01:24:03 AM »
Quote
You assUme

 :D
You guys fight like you're brothers or something...(in the faith?  ;))
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:24:16 AM by LakaYaRabb »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #170 on: September 18, 2013, 01:26:55 AM »
Quote
You assUme

 :D
You guys fight like you're brothers or something...(in the faith?  ;))
You joined the fight. ;)
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #171 on: September 18, 2013, 01:27:42 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to, considering the OCA hierarchy has recently (last decade) openly condemned altar girls.
You assUme much that isn't true. My advice to you: don't put words into my mouth. It's rude.

You are playing devils advocate and you shouldn't expect any better. Your self-perceived role as devils advocate is pointless. The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position. If people don't like our opposition to altar girls and a woman priesthood, and if they don't like our arguments against it, they can leave and join the Anglicans, where they'd be much happier. We dont need people trying to change our Church, she is perfect and always has been.

Peter, I don't care why our Church has this position, it has this position and its unchangeable and that is it, period, end of debate, end of story. People need to just accept it.

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #172 on: September 18, 2013, 01:29:41 AM »
Quote
You joined the fight. ;)

Cue Bryan Adam's "Cuts like a knife"...

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #173 on: September 18, 2013, 01:38:35 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

I'm guessing he doesn't want to, considering the OCA hierarchy has recently (last decade) openly condemned altar girls.
You assUme much that isn't true. My advice to you: don't put words into my mouth. It's rude.

You are playing devils advocate and you shouldn't expect any better.
I can hope that you will open your ears and listen, can't I? Or do I hope in vain?

Your self-perceived role as devils advocate is pointless. The Church will never change, no matter how we voice our position.
You miss the point, Devin. I'm not asking the Church to change. I'm asking you to voice a defense of your position.

If people don't like our opposition to altar girls and a woman priesthood, and if they don't like our arguments against it, they can leave and join the Anglicans, where they'd be much happier.
Maybe you can create your own church where everything is done your way and there is absolutely no dissent with your opinions. Somehow I don't think you would be happy there, though. You certainly don't seem happy here.

We dont need people trying to change our Church, she is perfect and always has been.
But the Church does need to constantly re-articulate its faith to each new generation. You seem unwilling to accept that task.

Peter, I don't care why our Church has this position, it has this position and its unchangeable and that is it, period, end of debate, end of story. People need to just accept it.
I'm glad you CAN just accept it. Most people, however, have not achieved in 300 years the level of theosis you have achieved in 5. Maybe you need to tailor your preaching so you can be more persuasive to the masses who have not achieved the level of theosis you have, such that they can accept without question the Church's faith and praxis. After all, did not Jesus condescend to St. Thomas's lack of faith by inviting him to touch His side and see for himself that He is risen? Where do we see Jesus saying, "I'm not going to give you the proof you want. You're just going to have to accept what My other disciples have told you about Me."
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:45:09 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #174 on: September 18, 2013, 01:45:34 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Some here need someone to play devil's advocate to challenge them to think outside their trite conventions. ;)

So you are supporting the legitimacy of altargirls. O-oooo-kay.
Only if you want to read me that way, LBK. ;) The truth be told, when it comes to Church practices, I support the traditional ways unless a very strong case can be made that we need to deviate from them. I just think we can do much more to articulate our reasons for doing things the way we do than resort to the cop-out, "we've always done it this way!" If I can inspire others to construct a sound defense of the Faith we practice so that we can be more effective at persuading others to embrace it, then I will have accomplished my mission.

The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #175 on: September 18, 2013, 01:47:07 AM »
Quote
I can hope that you will open your ears and listen, can't I? Or do I hope in vain?

You miss the point, Devin. I'm not asking the Church to change. I'm asking you to voice a defense of your position.

Maybe you can create your own church where everything is done your way and there is absolutely no dissent with your opinions. Somehow I don't think you would be happy there, though.

But the Church does need to constantly re-articulate its faith to each new generation. You seem unwilling to accept that task.

I'm glad you CAN just accept it. Maybe you need to tailor your preaching so you can be more persuasive to the masses who have not achieved the level of theosis you have, such that they can accept without question the Church's faith and praxis.

Devin,

Some hard words...but who can disagree! Seriously, I cannot.

All arguing and joking aside Peter: truly, thank you!

Offline LakaYaRabb

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #176 on: September 18, 2013, 01:48:52 AM »
When I say what I just said, I direct it to myself really, because, there is vastly more I can do to present the Faith to others.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #177 on: September 18, 2013, 01:50:50 AM »
Quote
Then catechize us, O wise one, since you seem to know so much.

Nope.
Then at least go back and reread my post.

You're free to do what you want, in like manner, so am I. My suggestion to you is speak to your spiritual father confessor, your parish Priest, and your Bishop.

LakaYaRabb, PtA's playing his usual tiresome semantic games again just to prove a non-existent point.  :P  :P  ::)
Some here need someone to play devil's advocate to challenge them to think outside their trite conventions. ;)

So you are supporting the legitimacy of altargirls. O-oooo-kay.
Only if you want to read me that way, LBK. ;) The truth be told, when it comes to Church practices, I support the traditional ways unless a very strong case can be made that we need to deviate from them. I just think we can do much more to articulate our reasons for doing things the way we do than resort to the cop-out, "we've always done it this way!" If I can inspire others to construct a sound defense of the Faith we practice so that we can be more effective at persuading others to embrace it, then I will have accomplished my mission.

The irrefutable and universal historic absence of altargirls across every era and region is not reason enough to say "They are not part of Orthodox tradition, and their presence is an aberration and an abuse"? Good grief!
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK.

Your devil's advocate shtick is wearing thin.
You think I care what you think? I never have before. So why should I start now?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #178 on: September 18, 2013, 01:55:19 AM »

You think I care what you think? I never have before. So why should I start now?

You only care about what what PtA thinks, and about scoring cheap points off people to give you that warm inner glow, even if it means shutting your eyes and blocking your ears to what old crocks say who've been around the Church much, much longer than you.

Quote
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK.

What is that supposed to mean?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Female Altar Servers??
« Reply #179 on: September 18, 2013, 02:05:31 AM »

You think I care what you think? I never have before. So why should I start now?

You only care about what what PtA thinks, and about scoring cheap points off people to give you that warm inner glow, even if it means shutting your eyes and blocking your ears to what old crocks say who've been around the Church much, much longer than you.
You do realize that you're presuming to know my motives, motives I have never shared with you? You do realize how arrogant and rude that is? You're not a mind reader, LBK, so stop pretending to be one.

Quote
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK.

What is that supposed to mean?
If only everyone thought like you do, LBK, then this world would be much easier to convert. Most people do not think as you do, though. To persuade them, you need to tailor your message so it relates to what each person deems most important. Is this not the example St. Paul set for us in his preaching to the Athenians? Are you willing to take on the task of understanding other points of view so you can discern what arguments others will likely find most persuasive? Or would you rather hold to your quaint opinion that everyone needs to think as you do because of your advanced age and that you are right to judge as blind and deaf those who refuse to acquiesce?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:06:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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