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Author Topic: The Tidal Model of Helping and Christian Therapists  (Read 3696 times) Average Rating: 0
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ms.hoorah
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2009, 02:29:26 AM »

Phew!  I smell something yucky cooking.  Could it be Gnosticism stew?  You know, the part that “subjects all morality to the desire of the individual”.....let the patient/individual decide what is “right” ........let the patient/individual do “whatever” feeeeeeels good?

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?


How did a discussion on mental health lead to accusations of heresy?

If you disagree with the man, fine, but your accusation is just uncalled for. Furthermore, OzGeorge never suggested that the patient do “whatever feeeeeeels good." He suggested a philosophical approach where the patient ultimately knows what is best for them. That's hardly the same as what you accuse him of.

Part of Gnosticism was/is their belief that subjects all morality to the desire of the individual.

Part of “the patient always knows what is right theory ” also subjects all morality to the desire of the mentally ill patient.

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

This mentally ill man recently gunned down and killed 3 women in a Pennsylvania health club.  He had a VERY “disturbed” morality along with his mental illness, major depression.  He took the lives of three innocent women forever damaging the lives of their children, family and friends. He also shot and injured 9 other women.  The mentally ill do NOT always know what is “right” for them.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 02:45:15 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ozgeorge
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2009, 04:31:36 AM »

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

You are not listening to others Ms. Hoorah, certainly not to me, and I can prove to you that you are not by showing you something which I have already said on this thread only yesterday:

I know what you're saying. There are times in our practice here in Australia when liberty has to be denied people under the Mental Health Act, and they are scheduled as involuntary patients as either "Mentally Ill" or "Mentally Disordered" by an accredited scheduler (I am one), the criteria being that the patient is at clear risk of harming themselves (physically, financially, reputation) and/or at risk of harming others. I hope that the Mental Health Act is never invoked on me, but if it were, I would sincerely hope that those who made the decision did so, firstly, in my best interests and with the understanding that it is a temporary fix and not a substitute for my own volition for the rest of my life. And secondly, I would hope that they understood that I am the one who had to live with my Mental Illness, and therefore I know it better than anyone. The expert in a person's mental illness is the person themselves- I learn from them- all I have is theoretical knowledge. Would you trust your car to a car mechanic who had only ever read books on car maintenance? Would you trust your spiritual direction a Priest who had only read about Orthodox Spirituality in books and never actually practiced it? Why should someone who has to live with their psychosis/depression/mania/delusions/fear/paranoia every day of their lives think that I know what is going on for them better than they do? This is what the Tidal Model is saying: the patient is the expert, and as such, deep down, they ultimately know what is best for them, and our task is to discover that together.

The Tidal Model of Care does not mean that patients can never be detained as involuntary patients when they are at risk of harming themselves or others, rather the Tidal Model provides a philosophical framework of how we are to approach the detention of involuntary patients, why we do it, what the goals are, etc.
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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2009, 04:40:11 AM »

How did a discussion on mental health lead to accusations of heresy?
Good question.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2009, 05:26:38 AM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.


I am a big believer in allowing the patient to choose healthy interventions to help him reach healthy goals but I know that many patients do not always know what is healthy or want to choose what is healthy.  Your “The Patient Always Knows What is Right Theory” smells like Transpersonal Psychology to me.

Under the guise of psychology, Transpersonal Psychology  is a counseling approach. This counseling theory amounts to finding the “real” person within.  The true person or identity for each person is a genius and omniscient, who can help one find the particular path in life and in such, work out “karmaic” debt. In other words, if we find this real person, we will know what is “right”.  If we learn to follow it, we can master our lives and clean up the karma that traps us.

In this counseling approach the human body gets a “free pass” for all sins (those that Christians might identify) as long as “no obvious damage is done in the action”.  Discovering what is “right” for YOU (not God-pleasing but “you” pleasing) and then living for the moment is Transpersonal Psychology’s mantra.  This school of thought is similar to Hinduism.
Do you REALLY understand what ozgeorge is saying, or are you just reacting to what you have misconceived him saying?  From your posts it looks as if I should think the former.
Uhm, I mean the latter. Embarrassed
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 05:27:05 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2009, 11:57:19 AM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2009, 12:46:04 PM »

Part of Gnosticism was/is their belief that subjects all morality to the desire of the individual.

Part of “the patient always knows what is right theory ” also subjects all morality to the desire of the mentally ill patient.

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

This mentally ill man recently gunned down and killed 3 women in a Pennsylvania health club.  He had a VERY “disturbed” morality along with his mental illness, major depression.  He took the lives of three innocent women forever damaging the lives of their children, family and friends. He also shot and injured 9 other women.  The mentally ill do NOT always know what is “right” for them.



ozgeorge has not said that the “the patient always knows what is right." He said that ultimately the patient knows what is best for him. Those are two very different things. You have twisted and warped his words, and are accusing him of heresy, when all he is proposing is a philosophical model for therapy. Furthermore, the model that has been proposed does not subject all morality to the desire of the individual.

My background isn't even in Psychology and I can see this!
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2009, 01:50:29 PM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
Nah!  I meant your whole statement.
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philalethe00
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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2009, 07:32:46 PM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
Nah!  I meant your whole statement.
Ok. The first has to do with typical Christian values, which is let someone do w h a t e v e r they want at a personal level, according to the fact that "Christ has liberated us from the curse of the Law"

The second is, mainly, information that I'm noting down here.

The third would need some sentences or paragraphs to "prove" it at a satisfactory level.
I think I have enough facts to do it, though.  Wink
Is it ok now? Smiley
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"Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who bow their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God".(D. Liturgy, St. John Chrysostom)
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