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Author Topic: The Tidal Model of Helping and Christian Therapists  (Read 3655 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 17, 2009, 12:52:06 PM »

In the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Canada, a new model of Mental Health Care developed by two mental health nurses in the UK is being used by Mental Health professionals including Nurses, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Social Workers and Occupational Therapists and is showing excellent results in empirical studies. Known as the "Tidal Model", it is an approach to Mental Health recovery which begins in the acute crisis phase of the person's Mental Illness. It is the first research based model of mental health recovery in the world and emphasizes the patient's own wisdom as being the thing leads to the patient's recovery. The expert is the patient while the professionals are the pupils.

Some of the key principles of the Tidal Model are:

    * A belief in the virtue of curiosity
    * Recognition of the power of resourcefulness, rather than focusing on problems, deficits or weaknesses
    * Respect for the person's wishes, rather than being paternalistic
    * Acceptance of the paradox of crisis as opportunity
    * Acknowledging that all goals must belong to the person
    * The virtue of pursuing elegance - the simplest possible means should be sought

The Tidal Model holds:

    * that recovery is possible
    * that change is inevitable - nothing lasts
    * that ultimately, people know what is best for them
    * that the person possesses all the resources they need to begin the recovery journey
    * that the person is the teacher and the helpers are the pupils
    * that the helper needs to be creatively curious, to learn what needs to be done to help the person, now.

More information about the Tidal Model can be found here: http://www.tidal-model.com/

I see nothing in this model which would contradict either the standards of professional psychotherapy nor Orthodox Christianity.  Perhaps others see things differently? Comments welcome.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:57:26 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 01:16:35 PM »

No problem...its basically Cognitive Behavioral therapy..no problems with Orthodoxy
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 01:33:55 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 01:37:08 PM »

No problem...its basically Cognitive Behavioral therapy..no problems with Orthodoxy
I'm not a Mental Health professional, but all the studies that I've read has lead me to believe in CBT.  In fact, I've been a CBT patient in the past and it worked wonders.
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 01:38:39 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?

No.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22665.msg348998.html#msg348998



MODERATION:  Cross-posted material removed in favor of a link to the original submission...  ialmisry, don't cross-post again.  -PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 01:41:59 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 01:50:14 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2009, 01:56:00 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
My inclination is to say "no", but I might be wrong.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 02:08:21 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
My inclination is to say "no", but I might be wrong.  Smiley
Funny, but it's more my Orthodox Christian Faith (rather than my training) which leads me to say "yes people ultimately know what is best for them.", Specifically, this is based on my belief that human nature was created good, and that this goodness -the image of God- remains there despite the fall. Kind of like a candle contained inside a glass which may have become dirty so the candle shines less brightly through it, but the candle is still there.
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 04:52:26 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
Uh...what does it mean to "ultimately" know something?

If you mean, given enough time, will people eventually -- through trial and error -- discover and do what is best for them, then I would have to say "Yes!".

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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 05:04:50 PM »

In the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Canada, a new model of Mental Health Care developed by two mental health nurses in the UK is being used by Mental Health professionals including Nurses, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Social Workers and Occupational Therapists and is showing excellent results in empirical studies. Known as the "Tidal Model", it is an approach to Mental Health recovery which begins in the acute crisis phase of the person's Mental Illness. It is the first research based model of mental health recovery in the world and emphasizes the patient's own wisdom as being the thing leads to the patient's recovery. The expert is the patient while the professionals are the pupils.

Some of the key principles of the Tidal Model are:

    * A belief in the virtue of curiosity
    * Recognition of the power of resourcefulness, rather than focusing on problems, deficits or weaknesses
    * Respect for the person's wishes, rather than being paternalistic
    * Acceptance of the paradox of crisis as opportunity
    * Acknowledging that all goals must belong to the person
    * The virtue of pursuing elegance - the simplest possible means should be sought

The Tidal Model holds:

    * that recovery is possible
    * that change is inevitable - nothing lasts
    * that ultimately, people know what is best for them
    * that the person possesses all the resources they need to begin the recovery journey
    * that the person is the teacher and the helpers are the pupils
    * that the helper needs to be creatively curious, to learn what needs to be done to help the person, now.

More information about the Tidal Model can be found here: http://www.tidal-model.com/

I see nothing in this model which would contradict either the standards of professional psychotherapy nor Orthodox Christianity.  Perhaps others see things differently? Comments welcome.


Disclaimer: I am not a mental health practicioner and have no formal training in the field.

The one thing that raises a flag with me, however, is "Recognition of the power of resourcefulness, rather than focusing on problems, deficits or weaknesses." As Orthodox Christians, aren't we suppose to recongnize our shortcomings, problems, weaknesses, etc, and confess them? Isn't this part of theosis?

While I am not advocating for dwelling on one's faults or shortcomings, I believe recognizing them is also a healthy part of either recovering from them and learning to focus on one's strength's and abilities.

What about the old adage "the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem"?

Am I wrong?
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 05:06:44 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.   
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
My inclination is to say "no", but I might be wrong.  Smiley
Funny, but it's more my Orthodox Christian Faith (rather than my training) which leads me to say "yes people ultimately know what is best for them.", Specifically, this is based on my belief that human nature was created good, and that this goodness -the image of God- remains there despite the fall. Kind of like a candle contained inside a glass which may have become dirty so the candle shines less brightly through it, but the candle is still there.

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 07:53:04 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
Uh...what does it mean to "ultimately" know something?

If you mean, given enough time, will people eventually -- through trial and error -- discover and do what is best for them, then I would have to say "Yes!".
Yes, I think that is close to the meaning of what "ultimately knowing what is best for them" is.
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 07:56:40 PM »

Disclaimer: I am not a mental health practicioner and have no formal training in the field.

The one thing that raises a flag with me, however, is "Recognition of the power of resourcefulness, rather than focusing on problems, deficits or weaknesses." As Orthodox Christians, aren't we suppose to recongnize our shortcomings, problems, weaknesses, etc, and confess them? Isn't this part of theosis?

While I am not advocating for dwelling on one's faults or shortcomings, I believe recognizing them is also a healthy part of either recovering from them and learning to focus on one's strength's and abilities.

What about the old adage "the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem"?

Am I wrong?

Someone who comes to therapy is coming because they have a problem. They've already taken the first step.
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 08:11:14 PM »

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
In my experience, yes. Even in psychosis or antisocial personality disorder, the person ultimately knows what is best for them. They may not be able to articulate it, but the Tidal Model assumes the investment of time to discover it. Its about a journey of discovery rather than a prescriptive leading.
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 10:09:43 PM »

While I am not advocating for dwelling on one's faults or shortcomings, I believe recognizing them is also a healthy part of either recovering from them and learning to focus on one's strength's and abilities.

I've thought about this some more, and apart from the fact that someone engaging in therapy is already recognising the need for some sort of change, is mental illness really a "fault" or "shortcoming"? Is it really helpful to think of mental illness this way?
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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 10:20:50 PM »

Handmaiden,
As an illustration of what I mean, here is an excellent example of the Tidal Model of Care captured on film- and the therapist was a whale!
The "Tidal Model" gets its name from the concept that the idea is to help "re-float" those who are "shipwrecked" or "washed ashore" or "drowning" in their distress. Focussing on the diver's cramps ( her "shortcomings") would not have helped at all:

Quote

Beluga whale carries struggling diver to surface

July 30, 2009
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25857169-663,00.html



A DROWNING diver has a beluga whale to thank for helping to save her life after her legs were paralysed by cramps.
Yang Yun was taking part in a free-diving contest at Polar Land in Harbin, north-east China, in which participants were required to sink seven metres to the bottom of a pool and stay there for as long as possible without the aid of breathing equipment.
Ms Yun, 26, thought she was going to die amid the beluga whales she shared the arctic pool with, after struggling to move her legs while trying to kick her way to the surface.
"I began to choke and sank even lower and I thought that was it for me - I was dead,” she told The Sun.
“Until I felt this incredible force under me driving me to the surface."
That “incredible force” was Mila, a beluga whale which had noticed her distress and clamped its jaws around her leg.
Using her sensitive nose, Mila drove Ms Yun carefully to the surface, to the amazement of onlookers and an underwater photographer who captured the entire incident on film.
"Mila noticed the problem before we did,” an organiser told The Sun.
"She's a sensitive animal who works closely with humans and I think this girl owes her her life."
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 10:35:21 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2009, 07:16:15 AM »

People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
I can accept that except I have to ask- who does know what is best for them other than God?
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 05:17:31 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
My inclination is to say "no", but I might be wrong.  Smiley
Funny, but it's more my Orthodox Christian Faith (rather than my training) which leads me to say "yes people ultimately know what is best for them.", Specifically, this is based on my belief that human nature was created good, and that this goodness -the image of God- remains there despite the fall. Kind of like a candle contained inside a glass which may have become dirty so the candle shines less brightly through it, but the candle is still there.

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?

"No" in many cases.  Their families/friends/significant others/mental health professionals have to step forward and help the individual exhibiting self-destructive and "dangerous" behaviors. To not step forward and help the impaired patient could result in the patient's death, prolonged recovery from the health problem, and numerous other problems.

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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2009, 06:31:18 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?
People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
Do you think that ultimately people know what is best for them?
My inclination is to say "no", but I might be wrong.  Smiley
Funny, but it's more my Orthodox Christian Faith (rather than my training) which leads me to say "yes people ultimately know what is best for them.", Specifically, this is based on my belief that human nature was created good, and that this goodness -the image of God- remains there despite the fall. Kind of like a candle contained inside a glass which may have become dirty so the candle shines less brightly through it, but the candle is still there.

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?

"No" in many cases.  Their families/friends/significant others/mental health professionals have to step forward and help the individual exhibiting self-destructive and "dangerous" behaviors. To not step forward and help the impaired patient could result in the patient's death, prolonged recovery from the health problem, and numerous other problems.



How can a disordered mind know what is best for the person's survival? My brother-in-law is bi-polar, on his meds and in therapy.
Yet he still gets caught in a web of confusion over basic life skills. Recently, he and I had a discussion about the food choices he has been making (he has been eating a lot of fatty fast foods and gaining too much weight). He tried to convince me that it made logical sense for him to eat at MacDonald's because his calorie per dollar ratio was higher than if he shopped for vegetables at the grocery store. He was fixated on getting a certain number of calories per day but ignoring the fact he was gaining too much weight. I tried to explain to him it was more important to make healthy food choices (eating lean meats, veggies) rather than focus on his calorie count. But I couldn't get through to him. If anyone is wondering about his intellectual capacity, he graduated from Stanford and was getting his grad degree in economics at Colombia U before this terrible disease took its toll.
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2009, 06:43:30 PM »

Can we accept that ultimately the patient knows what is best for them and that all the goals must be the patient's and not the therapists?

The Tidal Model Theory does NOT say,”Allow/Assist/Enable mental health patients to do “whatever” they think is right for them or “whatever” feels good.”   Why did you distort this theory, ozgeorge?

This theory is about encouraging patients to have a greater involvement in the decisions in their care plan, such as encouraging the patient to choose interventions that will HELP him/her have LESS mental and physical health problems and their associated symptoms.  It does NOT promote encouraging patients to make dangerous or potentially dangerous life choices/treatment choices just because the patient thinks it is “right for him” or  “feels good”.  It does NOT teach that health care providers should allow/assist/enable patients to choose actions/behaviors that will lead to increased severity and/or increase duration of their mental/physical health problems or additional mental/physical health problems.


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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2009, 07:10:06 PM »

People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
I can accept that except I have to ask- who does know what is best for them other than God?
I think it will be different for each person depending on their circumstance.
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2009, 12:12:02 AM »

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
In my experience, yes. Even in psychosis or antisocial personality disorder, the person ultimately knows what is best for them. They may not be able to articulate it, but the Tidal Model assumes the investment of time to discover it. Its about a journey of discovery rather than a prescriptive leading.

Competent and ethical health care practitioners have an obligation to act in such a manner as to PROMOTE and SAFEGUARD the patient’s safety/health FIRST.   Nonmaleficence (avoiding the greatest amount of harm) ALWAYS takes precedence over beneficence (doing good or pleasing the patient or encouraging the patient to do whatever feels good regardless of the consequences).  Because of the code of ethics in which competent and ethical health care providers must abide, the only completely FREE choice patients should get to make is whether to choose to enter into a health-care relationship with the provider or whether to not enter/cancel this relationship.

Health care is not McDonalds.  Patients do not always know what is right for them (for an exhaustive list of reasons including mental illness and lack of medical knowledge).






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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2009, 12:44:17 AM »

People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
I can accept that except I have to ask- who does know what is best for them other than God?
I think it will be different for each person depending on their circumstance.
I know what you're saying. There are times in our practice here in Australia when liberty has to be denied people under the Mental Health Act, and they are scheduled as involuntary patients as either "Mentally Ill" or "Mentally Disordered" by an accredited scheduler (I am one), the criteria being that the patient is at clear risk of harming themselves (physically, financially, reputation) and/or at risk of harming others. I hope that the Mental Health Act is never invoked on me, but if it were, I would sincerely hope that those who made the decision did so, firstly, in my best interests and with the understanding that it is a temporary fix and not a substitute for my own volition for the rest of my life. And secondly, I would hope that they understood that I am the one who had to live with my Mental Illness, and therefore I know it better than anyone. The expert in a person's mental illness is the person themselves- I learn from them- all I have is theoretical knowledge. Would you trust your car to a car mechanic who had only ever read books on car maintenance? Would you trust your spiritual direction a Priest who had only read about Orthodox Spirituality in books and never actually practiced it? Why should someone who has to live with their psychosis/depression/mania/delusions/fear/paranoia every day of their lives think that I know what is going on for them better than they do? This is what the Tidal Model is saying: the patient is the expert, and as such, deep down, they ultimately know what is best for them, and our task is to discover that together.
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2009, 01:14:03 AM »

But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
In my experience, yes. Even in psychosis or antisocial personality disorder, the person ultimately knows what is best for them. They may not be able to articulate it, but the Tidal Model assumes the investment of time to discover it. Its about a journey of discovery rather than a prescriptive leading.

I am really fascinated by your comment, ozgeorge.

Psychodynamic mechanisms are easy to observe in psychotic patients but do these plus their delusions, hallucinations, ideas of reference, and their distorted cognitive abilities REALLY reveal to you what is  “right” for the severely and possibly chronically mentally ill patient?  Please expound on how psychotic patients know what is “right” for them when psychotic patients suffer from cognitive impairment, delusions, hallucinations, and ideas of reference?

I’ve got bad news for you.  The Tidal Model Therapy is a very old theory repackaged.  The theory that patients should be actively involved in choosing HEALTHY interventions and HEALTHY goals was old when I went to Johns Hopkins decades ago.
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2009, 01:20:16 AM »

Psychodynamic mechanisms are easy to observe in psychotic patients but do these plus their delusions, hallucinations, ideas of reference, and their distorted cognitive abilities REALLY reveal to you what is  “right” for the severely and possibly chronically mentally ill patient?  Please expound on how psychotic patients know what is “right” for them when psychotic patients suffer from cognitive impairment, delusions, hallucinations, and ideas of reference?

See my post above this one. It answers your question.
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2009, 01:21:27 AM »

People do not always know what is best for themselves, but their choices in life must ultimately be theirs to make.  
I can accept that except I have to ask- who does know what is best for them other than God?
I think it will be different for each person depending on their circumstance.
I know what you're saying. There are times in our practice here in Australia when liberty has to be denied people under the Mental Health Act, and they are scheduled as involuntary patients as either "Mentally Ill" or "Mentally Disordered" by an accredited scheduler (I am one), the criteria being that the patient is at clear risk of harming themselves (physically, financially, reputation) and/or at risk of harming others. I hope that the Mental Health Act is never invoked on me, but if it were, I would sincerely hope that those who made the decision did so, firstly, in my best interests and with the understanding that it is a temporary fix and not a substitute for my own volition for the rest of my life. And secondly, I would hope that they understood that I am the one who had to live with my Mental Illness, and therefore I know it better than anyone. The expert in a person's mental illness is the person themselves- I learn from them- all I have is theoretical knowledge. Would you trust your car to a car mechanic who had only ever read books on car maintenance? Would you trust your spiritual direction a Priest who had only read about Orthodox Spirituality in books and never actually practiced it? Why should someone who has to live with their psychosis/depression/mania/delusions/fear/paranoia every day of their lives think that I know what is going on for them better than they do? This is what the Tidal Model is saying: the patient is the expert, and as such, deep down, they ultimately know what is best for them, and our task is to discover that together.

To get someone involuntarily admitted in America ( legal document #302 )  you have to go through a county delegate and get a court order.  A judge has to sign this court order. If it is in the middle of the night the ER staff must babysit the psychotic patient,  which keeps them from taking care of the emergently ill having heart attacks and bleeding from gunshot wounds. The petitioner is usually a family member who is beyond exhaustion with trying to protect the mentally ill relative from injuring himself or others.    The practitioner certifies that the information is accurate from the exhausted relative and that the patient is medically stable and can enter an inpatient  psych facility.  The practitioner must review all medical records available...and with today's computers, a heck of a lot of it is available taking hours to read.  Then, the  practitioner must do a complete mental and physical health exam.  Then, the practitioner has to wait and wait for the court system to either approve or disapprove of the decision to sign the  involuntarily admit #302.  If the practitioner's and petitioner's documents are approved, then the patient is involuntarily admitted.  This decision must be reviewed in 3 business days and a hearing in front must occur in front of the judge that signed....no email or telephone hearing.  The provider must show up in front of the judge and TAKE OFF WORK WITHOUT REIMBURSEMENT.   Clearly, only the VERY severely ill are ever involuntarily admitted......this is not a scary subject.  No one gets accidently involuntarily admitted.  This is a very poor example to give for why the patient gets to decide exactly what is "right" or "what will feel good to him therefore influencing a clinician's treatment/therapy.


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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2009, 01:28:27 AM »

Thank you for expounding about practices in America Ms Hoorah. How very interesting.
What has that to do with anything I've said though? I pointed to this post of mine you quote above as answering a question you asked, and you haven't even mentioned that.
Dialogue is not monologue Ms. Hoorah.
Please stay on topic.
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2009, 01:45:18 AM »

As someone who has had CB therapy before, I have to say that I feel patients ultimately know what is best for them if they have allow God to be in their therapy, and if they have knowledgeable and caring therapists working with them. However, I'm not sure if all mental illness is curable, such as Schizophrenia. Since I'm not an expert on that, I'll let others speak of it.

On a personal note, I did not know what was initially good for me besides the thought or hint that I needed outside help. I could never have been able to stand on my own two feet--ultimately knowing what is in my best interests--without the help of qualified CB therapists. Through that, I was able to cognitively find what has further helped me normalize, but I feel people can only know what is ultimately in their best interests through the engagement of therapy. The way I see it, the Journey of a Thousand Miles begins with One Step.
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« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2009, 02:13:24 AM »

While the Tidal Model may incorporate CBT, it is in fact not a therapy in itself, but rather a tested philosophical model of care for Mental Health which is multidisciplinary in it's approach, where therapists, social workers, nurses, occupational theapists, medical practitioners etc work together.
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« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2009, 06:15:37 AM »

Ms.Hoorah's experiences are entirely different from mine..I am paid by the facility I work at if I have to go to a court hearing .
I have never seen staff "baby sit". I guess our Crisis Stabilization Units work better.
The Tidal Model seems to work.I can remember in the late 60s and early 70s how Great Britain led the way in community mental health.I want to thank Ozgeorge for bringing it to our attention.
I can remember my early days of graduate school when a beloved professor told me to "aways speak to that healthy part of the patient".he was an atheist but I wonder if that "healthy part" he spoke of was the "Christ" which is in us all..
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« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2009, 11:08:57 AM »

While I am not advocating for dwelling on one's faults or shortcomings, I believe recognizing them is also a healthy part of either recovering from them and learning to focus on one's strength's and abilities.

I've thought about this some more, and apart from the fact that someone engaging in therapy is already recognising the need for some sort of change, is mental illness really a "fault" or "shortcoming"? Is it really helpful to think of mental illness this way?

OzGeorge,

I agree, coming to therapy is a first step that "something" is wrong. But when a therapist helps a patient see what that "something" is, if it is an unhealthy behavior, isn't it the responsibility of the patient to own it, repent from it, and change?

I am not trying to cast mental illness in a bad light. I understand that many mental illnesses are biological in nature and not the patient's "fault."

I'm talking about less "organic" things like learning to respect boundries, stopping abusive behavior, enabling abusive behavior, etc.

Sometimes these things are related to biological illnesses, other times they are not.

Do you see where I'm going?

Am I making any sense?
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« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2009, 11:14:08 AM »

To get someone involuntarily admitted in America ( legal document #302 )  you have to go through a county delegate and get a court order.  A judge has to sign this court order. If it is in the middle of the night the ER staff must babysit the psychotic patient,  which keeps them from taking care of the emergently ill having heart attacks and bleeding from gunshot wounds. The petitioner is usually a family member who is beyond exhaustion with trying to protect the mentally ill relative from injuring himself or others.    The practitioner certifies that the information is accurate from the exhausted relative and that the patient is medically stable and can enter an inpatient  psych facility.  The practitioner must review all medical records available...and with today's computers, a heck of a lot of it is available taking hours to read.  Then, the  practitioner must do a complete mental and physical health exam.  Then, the practitioner has to wait and wait for the court system to either approve or disapprove of the decision to sign the  involuntarily admit #302.  If the practitioner's and petitioner's documents are approved, then the patient is involuntarily admitted.  This decision must be reviewed in 3 business days and a hearing in front must occur in front of the judge that signed....no email or telephone hearing.  The provider must show up in front of the judge and TAKE OFF WORK WITHOUT REIMBURSEMENT.   Clearly, only the VERY severely ill are ever involuntarily admitted......this is not a scary subject.  No one gets accidently involuntarily admitted.  This is a very poor example to give for why the patient gets to decide exactly what is "right" or "what will feel good to him therefore influencing a clinician's treatment/therapy.

Ms.Hoorah,

I thought under the "Baker Act" an individual threatening to commit suicide could be involuntarily witheld for 48 hours as a ward of the state. I'm not sure how things work in your neck of the woods, but I personally (unfortunately) know of two individuals in NJ and FL where this happened. In both cases, the individual threatened to kill themselves, the police were called, and an ambulance ended up taking them away and admitting them to the Psych Ward of the local hospital.

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« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2009, 11:58:07 AM »

To get someone involuntarily admitted in America ( legal document #302 )  you have to go through a county delegate and get a court order.  A judge has to sign this court order. If it is in the middle of the night the ER staff must babysit the psychotic patient,  which keeps them from taking care of the emergently ill having heart attacks and bleeding from gunshot wounds. The petitioner is usually a family member who is beyond exhaustion with trying to protect the mentally ill relative from injuring himself or others.    The practitioner certifies that the information is accurate from the exhausted relative and that the patient is medically stable and can enter an inpatient  psych facility.  The practitioner must review all medical records available...and with today's computers, a heck of a lot of it is available taking hours to read.  Then, the  practitioner must do a complete mental and physical health exam.  Then, the practitioner has to wait and wait for the court system to either approve or disapprove of the decision to sign the  involuntarily admit #302.  If the practitioner's and petitioner's documents are approved, then the patient is involuntarily admitted.  This decision must be reviewed in 3 business days and a hearing in front must occur in front of the judge that signed....no email or telephone hearing.  The provider must show up in front of the judge and TAKE OFF WORK WITHOUT REIMBURSEMENT.   Clearly, only the VERY severely ill are ever involuntarily admitted......this is not a scary subject.  No one gets accidently involuntarily admitted.  This is a very poor example to give for why the patient gets to decide exactly what is "right" or "what will feel good to him therefore influencing a clinician's treatment/therapy.

Ms.Hoorah,

I thought under the "Baker Act" an individual threatening to commit suicide could be involuntarily witheld for 48 hours as a ward of the state. I'm not sure how things work in your neck of the woods, but I personally (unfortunately) know of two individuals in NJ and FL where this happened. In both cases, the individual threatened to kill themselves, the police were called, and an ambulance ended up taking them away and admitting them to the Psych Ward of the local hospital.

In my state, it works exactly as I described. The cases you are describing would have gone from the ambulance/car to the ER where the process begins.
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« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2009, 12:25:10 PM »

To get someone involuntarily admitted in America ( legal document #302 )  you have to go through a county delegate and get a court order.  A judge has to sign this court order. If it is in the middle of the night the ER staff must babysit the psychotic patient,  which keeps them from taking care of the emergently ill having heart attacks and bleeding from gunshot wounds. The petitioner is usually a family member who is beyond exhaustion with trying to protect the mentally ill relative from injuring himself or others.    The practitioner certifies that the information is accurate from the exhausted relative and that the patient is medically stable and can enter an inpatient  psych facility.  The practitioner must review all medical records available...and with today's computers, a heck of a lot of it is available taking hours to read.  Then, the  practitioner must do a complete mental and physical health exam.  Then, the practitioner has to wait and wait for the court system to either approve or disapprove of the decision to sign the  involuntarily admit #302.  If the practitioner's and petitioner's documents are approved, then the patient is involuntarily admitted.  This decision must be reviewed in 3 business days and a hearing in front must occur in front of the judge that signed....no email or telephone hearing.  The provider must show up in front of the judge and TAKE OFF WORK WITHOUT REIMBURSEMENT.   Clearly, only the VERY severely ill are ever involuntarily admitted......this is not a scary subject.  No one gets accidently involuntarily admitted.  This is a very poor example to give for why the patient gets to decide exactly what is "right" or "what will feel good to him therefore influencing a clinician's treatment/therapy.

Ms.Hoorah,

I thought under the "Baker Act" an individual threatening to commit suicide could be involuntarily witheld for 48 hours as a ward of the state. I'm not sure how things work in your neck of the woods, but I personally (unfortunately) know of two individuals in NJ and FL where this happened. In both cases, the individual threatened to kill themselves, the police were called, and an ambulance ended up taking them away and admitting them to the Psych Ward of the local hospital.

In my state, it works exactly as I described. The cases you are describing would have gone from the ambulance/car to the ER where the process begins.


what state is that?

In IL, getting someone committed for observation is not that hard at all.  In the interest of self disclosure, I worked in one of the few remaining free standing Psych hospitals, so that might have skewed my experience.  We got people from the ER all the time within hours of them going there.  I recall only one time having to go to court for a patient who had been there for 60 days or so.
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« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2009, 12:39:38 PM »

Quote
But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
There is something more important here: the freedom of conscience and freedom of acting and commiting sin (on a personal level), which is a sacred freedom given to us by God. Unless we're talking about a theocratic(with what Erich Fromm had defined as religion) state, but this is a blasphemy, as we all know, I hope.  Wink Therefore, I agree with ozgeorge on this one.  Wink

Maybe it seems a little strange stating and "stressing" the importance of one's will and freedom, but it is a very disappointing and sinful behaviour to tag someone as something illegal, in order to destroy his life, just like the (un)holy Inquisition did with so-called witches and heretics.
There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now). And it causes a lot of (compassionate) grief to see people, which means children of God and images of his untold Glory, to be treated like well, trash.

Btw, the notion that the nature of "mental illness" is biological is (a totally materialist)one that came through will to make "psychiatry" a "hard science", combined with neurology and, therefore, more credible. But there has never been any evidence about this. It's plain "brainwashing" of the powerful of this world. No surprise, thus.  Smiley






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« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2009, 12:55:35 PM »

But when a therapist helps a patient see what that "something" is, if it is an unhealthy behavior, isn't it the responsibility of the patient to own it, repent from it, and change?
Yes, it is the patient's responsibility to own it.

I am not trying to cast mental illness in a bad light. I understand that many mental illnesses are biological in nature and not the patient's "fault."

I'm talking about less "organic" things like learning to respect boundries, stopping abusive behavior, enabling abusive behavior, etc.

Sometimes these things are related to biological illnesses, other times they are not.

Do you see where I'm going?
I see where you are going, but I wonder whether psychotherapy should be dealing with the "bad" rather than the "mad".
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« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2009, 02:18:55 PM »

But when a therapist helps a patient see what that "something" is, if it is an unhealthy behavior, isn't it the responsibility of the patient to own it, repent from it, and change?
Yes, it is the patient's responsibility to own it.

I am not trying to cast mental illness in a bad light. I understand that many mental illnesses are biological in nature and not the patient's "fault."

I'm talking about less "organic" things like learning to respect boundries, stopping abusive behavior, enabling abusive behavior, etc.

Sometimes these things are related to biological illnesses, other times they are not.

Do you see where I'm going?
I see where you are going, but I wonder whether psychotherapy should be dealing with the "bad" rather than the "mad".

Phew!  I smell something yucky cooking.  Could it be Gnosticism stew?  You know, the part that “subjects all morality to the desire of the individual”.....let the patient/individual decide what is “right” ........let the patient/individual do “whatever” feeeeeeels good?

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
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« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2009, 08:32:31 PM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.


I am a big believer in allowing the patient to choose healthy interventions to help him reach healthy goals but I know that many patients do not always know what is healthy or want to choose what is healthy.  Your “The Patient Always Knows What is Right Theory” smells like Transpersonal Psychology to me.

Under the guise of psychology, Transpersonal Psychology  is a counseling approach. This counseling theory amounts to finding the “real” person within.  The true person or identity for each person is a genius and omniscient, who can help one find the particular path in life and in such, work out “karmaic” debt. In other words, if we find this real person, we will know what is “right”.  If we learn to follow it, we can master our lives and clean up the karma that traps us.

In this counseling approach the human body gets a “free pass” for all sins (those that Christians might identify) as long as “no obvious damage is done in the action”.  Discovering what is “right” for YOU (not God-pleasing but “you” pleasing) and then living for the moment is Transpersonal Psychology’s mantra.  This school of thought is similar to Hinduism.


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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2009, 09:48:25 PM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

The assylum was just a front, just like the work camp for the death camps.  Sort of like "clients" using the psych ward as a flop house in between check days.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.

So the Metropolitan Church group qualify, with all that that entails.
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 11:07:01 PM »

Quote
But if someone suffers from a mental disorder, or is a sociopath, or psychotic, do they have the ability to know what is ultimately best for them?
There is something more important here: the freedom of conscience and freedom of acting and commiting sin (on a personal level), which is a sacred freedom given to us by God. Unless we're talking about a theocratic(with what Erich Fromm had defined as religion) state, but this is a blasphemy, as we all know, I hope.  Wink Therefore, I agree with ozgeorge on this one.  Wink

Maybe it seems a little strange stating and "stressing" the importance of one's will and freedom, but it is a very disappointing and sinful behaviour to tag someone as something illegal, in order to destroy his life, just like the (un)holy Inquisition did with so-called witches and heretics.
There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now). And it causes a lot of (compassionate) grief to see people, which means children of God and images of his untold Glory, to be treated like well, trash.

Btw, the notion that the nature of "mental illness" is biological is (a totally materialist)one that came through will to make "psychiatry" a "hard science", combined with neurology and, therefore, more credible. But there has never been any evidence about this. It's plain "brainwashing" of the powerful of this world. No surprise, thus.  Smiley
Can you prove this opinion true?
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 11:08:56 PM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.


I am a big believer in allowing the patient to choose healthy interventions to help him reach healthy goals but I know that many patients do not always know what is healthy or want to choose what is healthy.  Your “The Patient Always Knows What is Right Theory” smells like Transpersonal Psychology to me.

Under the guise of psychology, Transpersonal Psychology  is a counseling approach. This counseling theory amounts to finding the “real” person within.  The true person or identity for each person is a genius and omniscient, who can help one find the particular path in life and in such, work out “karmaic” debt. In other words, if we find this real person, we will know what is “right”.  If we learn to follow it, we can master our lives and clean up the karma that traps us.

In this counseling approach the human body gets a “free pass” for all sins (those that Christians might identify) as long as “no obvious damage is done in the action”.  Discovering what is “right” for YOU (not God-pleasing but “you” pleasing) and then living for the moment is Transpersonal Psychology’s mantra.  This school of thought is similar to Hinduism.
Do you REALLY understand what ozgeorge is saying, or are you just reacting to what you have misconceived him saying?  From your posts it looks as if I should think the former.
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2009, 12:50:40 AM »

In my state, it works exactly as I described. The cases you are describing would have gone from the ambulance/car to the ER where the process begins.

If that's how it works in your state, then please specify it as such. There were no judges or courts involved in the cases I cited in FL and NJ. The person was involuntarily admitted with no problem what so ever.

Please do not pretend to represent all of Mental Healthcare in the U.S., when it does vary from state to state.

(Overall healthcare varies from state to state for that matter.)
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2009, 12:54:29 AM »

Phew!  I smell something yucky cooking.  Could it be Gnosticism stew?  You know, the part that “subjects all morality to the desire of the individual”.....let the patient/individual decide what is “right” ........let the patient/individual do “whatever” feeeeeeels good?

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?


How did a discussion on mental health lead to accusations of heresy?

If you disagree with the man, fine, but your accusation is just uncalled for. Furthermore, OzGeorge never suggested that the patient do “whatever feeeeeeels good." He suggested a philosophical approach where the patient ultimately knows what is best for them. That's hardly the same as what you accuse him of.
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2009, 02:29:26 AM »

Phew!  I smell something yucky cooking.  Could it be Gnosticism stew?  You know, the part that “subjects all morality to the desire of the individual”.....let the patient/individual decide what is “right” ........let the patient/individual do “whatever” feeeeeeels good?

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?


How did a discussion on mental health lead to accusations of heresy?

If you disagree with the man, fine, but your accusation is just uncalled for. Furthermore, OzGeorge never suggested that the patient do “whatever feeeeeeels good." He suggested a philosophical approach where the patient ultimately knows what is best for them. That's hardly the same as what you accuse him of.

Part of Gnosticism was/is their belief that subjects all morality to the desire of the individual.

Part of “the patient always knows what is right theory ” also subjects all morality to the desire of the mentally ill patient.

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

This mentally ill man recently gunned down and killed 3 women in a Pennsylvania health club.  He had a VERY “disturbed” morality along with his mental illness, major depression.  He took the lives of three innocent women forever damaging the lives of their children, family and friends. He also shot and injured 9 other women.  The mentally ill do NOT always know what is “right” for them.

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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2009, 04:31:36 AM »

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

You are not listening to others Ms. Hoorah, certainly not to me, and I can prove to you that you are not by showing you something which I have already said on this thread only yesterday:

I know what you're saying. There are times in our practice here in Australia when liberty has to be denied people under the Mental Health Act, and they are scheduled as involuntary patients as either "Mentally Ill" or "Mentally Disordered" by an accredited scheduler (I am one), the criteria being that the patient is at clear risk of harming themselves (physically, financially, reputation) and/or at risk of harming others. I hope that the Mental Health Act is never invoked on me, but if it were, I would sincerely hope that those who made the decision did so, firstly, in my best interests and with the understanding that it is a temporary fix and not a substitute for my own volition for the rest of my life. And secondly, I would hope that they understood that I am the one who had to live with my Mental Illness, and therefore I know it better than anyone. The expert in a person's mental illness is the person themselves- I learn from them- all I have is theoretical knowledge. Would you trust your car to a car mechanic who had only ever read books on car maintenance? Would you trust your spiritual direction a Priest who had only read about Orthodox Spirituality in books and never actually practiced it? Why should someone who has to live with their psychosis/depression/mania/delusions/fear/paranoia every day of their lives think that I know what is going on for them better than they do? This is what the Tidal Model is saying: the patient is the expert, and as such, deep down, they ultimately know what is best for them, and our task is to discover that together.

The Tidal Model of Care does not mean that patients can never be detained as involuntary patients when they are at risk of harming themselves or others, rather the Tidal Model provides a philosophical framework of how we are to approach the detention of involuntary patients, why we do it, what the goals are, etc.
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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2009, 04:40:11 AM »

How did a discussion on mental health lead to accusations of heresy?
Good question.
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2009, 05:26:38 AM »

There are even in Greece some examples of this truth, which is the admission to the "hospital"-prison, of people(for example, a famous anarchist songwriter) that had unwanted views and said unwanted things(I'm not judging their value or truth now).
We might also think of the many times "psychiatry" was used to "treat" anyone deemed to be going against accepted social norms. Its actually not all that long ago that dissidents in Russia, were locked up in asylums under the guise of being "mentally ill". The moment psychiatry and psychotherapy are used as a means to determine who is "good" or "bad" in society, it simply becomes a tool for the most powerful in society to use against citizens. How many of our Priests in Soviet Russia were sent to asylums for believing in God? No. This is not the role of Christian therapists.

Does the topic of this thread still contain the words "Christian therapists"?
The title of this thread does indeed contain a reference to Christian Therapists. But it doesn't contain the words "Southern Baptist Christian Therapists" nor "Born Again Christian Therapists" nor does it say "Political Christian Therapists". When we can all agree what a "Christian" is, only then can we decide what it means to be a "Christian Therapist". At the moment, the best we can define a Christian Therapist as is a Therapist who identifies as a Christian.


I am a big believer in allowing the patient to choose healthy interventions to help him reach healthy goals but I know that many patients do not always know what is healthy or want to choose what is healthy.  Your “The Patient Always Knows What is Right Theory” smells like Transpersonal Psychology to me.

Under the guise of psychology, Transpersonal Psychology  is a counseling approach. This counseling theory amounts to finding the “real” person within.  The true person or identity for each person is a genius and omniscient, who can help one find the particular path in life and in such, work out “karmaic” debt. In other words, if we find this real person, we will know what is “right”.  If we learn to follow it, we can master our lives and clean up the karma that traps us.

In this counseling approach the human body gets a “free pass” for all sins (those that Christians might identify) as long as “no obvious damage is done in the action”.  Discovering what is “right” for YOU (not God-pleasing but “you” pleasing) and then living for the moment is Transpersonal Psychology’s mantra.  This school of thought is similar to Hinduism.
Do you REALLY understand what ozgeorge is saying, or are you just reacting to what you have misconceived him saying?  From your posts it looks as if I should think the former.
Uhm, I mean the latter. Embarrassed
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2009, 11:57:19 AM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
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« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2009, 12:46:04 PM »

Part of Gnosticism was/is their belief that subjects all morality to the desire of the individual.

Part of “the patient always knows what is right theory ” also subjects all morality to the desire of the mentally ill patient.

Some mentally ill patients have very diseased morals and they may have a profound impact on others, including you. Here is one recent example:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/20283920/detail.html

This mentally ill man recently gunned down and killed 3 women in a Pennsylvania health club.  He had a VERY “disturbed” morality along with his mental illness, major depression.  He took the lives of three innocent women forever damaging the lives of their children, family and friends. He also shot and injured 9 other women.  The mentally ill do NOT always know what is “right” for them.



ozgeorge has not said that the “the patient always knows what is right." He said that ultimately the patient knows what is best for him. Those are two very different things. You have twisted and warped his words, and are accusing him of heresy, when all he is proposing is a philosophical model for therapy. Furthermore, the model that has been proposed does not subject all morality to the desire of the individual.

My background isn't even in Psychology and I can see this!
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2009, 01:50:29 PM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
Nah!  I meant your whole statement.
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« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2009, 07:32:46 PM »

Can you prove this opinion true?
Excuse me for this, did you mean the latter one?  Smiley

( I'll be back soon to reply...  Smiley )
Nah!  I meant your whole statement.
Ok. The first has to do with typical Christian values, which is let someone do w h a t e v e r they want at a personal level, according to the fact that "Christ has liberated us from the curse of the Law"

The second is, mainly, information that I'm noting down here.

The third would need some sentences or paragraphs to "prove" it at a satisfactory level.
I think I have enough facts to do it, though.  Wink
Is it ok now? Smiley
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