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Author Topic: St Andrews Memorial Church in South Bound Brook, NJ  (Read 2995 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: August 14, 2009, 09:55:52 PM »



Has anyone ever been to this church?  I here that it's supposed to be very impressive.

Perhaps I should come see myself since I'm so geographically close to there?

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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 12:20:05 AM »

Of course go visit.  It's a neat church indeed.
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 01:39:44 AM »

I have to warn  you that the entire service is done in Ukrainian, and that they do not have pews there. So bring comfy shoes if you're not used to standing! Smiley

They also are not very welcoming to those who do not speak Ukrainian. St. Andrew's is the diocesan Cathedral for the UOC-USA Eastern Eparchy. As a member of a UOC-USA parish not far from St. Andrew's, my parish has often been called upon to help at St. Andrew's when they've had various events.

As my parish is more "American," and full of 2nd and 3rd generation Ukrainian-Americans and converts, many of us do not speak Ukrainian as our first language if we speak it at all. As a result, the people at St. Andrew's were very cold to us, to the point that we no longer go there to help them.

If you would like to see what a Ukrainian parish is like, I'd invite you to come to St. Demetrius Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral in Carteret. The service is done in Ukrainian and English, with the Epistle, Gospel, and Sermon spoken in both languages. It's a small parish, but we are welcoming to converts.
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 10:16:35 AM »

Handmaiden,

How are they cold? Do you feel they look down on you if your parisioners dont speak Ukrainian? If so that is sad since St. Andrew's is the headchurch of the UOCUSA. I have been there a few times, it is a beautiful cathedral. My ukrainian however is horrible but ive never been judged on my language skills. Even my own parish has it liturgies in stricly Ukrainian due to the majority of its parisioners being either new immigrants or post wwII immigrants with very strong ties. We have tried integrating Ewnglish in the service in the past but no Americans come and the Ukrainian immigrants get mad.
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 11:32:44 AM »


The church is beautiful.
I've been there, as well, and have never encountered any issues.  I thought the people were just fine.

Handmaiden, I am sad to hear that you were treated "coldly".  Hopefully, you were treated this way by a handful of individuals and the entire parish does not feel this way.  Everyone has a few bad apples in their bushel.

I know the UOCofUSA caters to both Ukrainian and English, and tries to get the Word out regardless of language.

At my parish, which is a member of UOCofUSA, the services are mostly in Ukrainian, however, there is some English used.  We have a few parishioners who speak no English at all, and for their benefit English is used.  However, the majority of the services are in Ukrainian.

Robb, feel free to go visit the church.  You will find it lovely.  Maybe, it'll turn you into a Ukraino-phile.  Wink 


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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 12:19:08 PM »

Cossack, Liza,

It was not just I who was treated coldly, but many members of my parish, St. Demetrius Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral.

My great grandparents were among the founding members of St. Demetrius parish, and I have attended this parish throughout my entire life.

My priest finally got so fed up with the way St. Andrew's treated our parish, he refused to have us volunteer to assist for services on St. Thomas Sunday for the blessing of the graves.

While many of our parishoners do speak Ukrainian, English is their first language, since they are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Americans. Parishoners of St. Andrew's would speak about our parishoners in derogative terms in Ukrainian, thinking our people could not understand them. Imagine their surprise when they would be told to "watch who they talk about" in perfect Ukrainian by the people they were speaking ill of!

When I went there for their Babka sale during Pascha, I asked (in English) where the Babka sale was, and was told to go to a tool shed.  Angry

I even know of Seminarians from St. Sophia's Theological Seminary next door to the Cathedral who would not go to Liturgy on the Sunday mornings that they were in town, because they were uncomfortable with the Ukrainian nationalistic attitudes of the parishoners of St. Andrew's.

While the UOC-USA as a jurisdiction does promote the use of English and Ukrainian, the people at St. Andrew's do not.

I would like to think that my experience was an isolated incident by a few "bad apples." But after hearing testimony upon testimony over the years from different people of my parish and how they have been treated at St. Andrew's, I cannot help but have a bad taste in my mouth.

God forgive me for speaking ill of a sister parish, but I felt that I should speak the truth.

In XC,

Maureen
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 01:59:13 PM »


Maureen,

If it's truly such a big issue, why hasn't something been done about it?

This is certainly not the "philosophy" of the UOCofUSA. 

I am amazed that these issues haven't been brought to light within the Eparchy.  I am certain that this can be resolved.

I have a hard time understanding how Ukrainian "nationalism" would lead to such behavior.

Like I said, my church is still comprised of mostly Ukrainian speakers.  We prefer our Liturgy to be in Ukrainian. 
However, if there are "non-Ukrainians" around, nobody has any issues with English being used.

Additionally, we bend over backwards to the the non-Ukrainian speakers, to ensure they are comfortable.

There are prayer books available in Ukrainian and English, so they can follow along.

This anti-"English" behavior is certainly NOT typical of Ukrainian churches, and I want everyone to know that.

Please, don't let it every stop you from visiting a Ukrainian Church. 



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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »


Maureen,

If it's truly such a big issue, why hasn't something been done about it?

This is certainly not the "philosophy" of the UOCofUSA. 

I am amazed that these issues haven't been brought to light within the Eparchy.  I am certain that this can be resolved.

I have a hard time understanding how Ukrainian "nationalism" would lead to such behavior.

Like I said, my church is still comprised of mostly Ukrainian speakers.  We prefer our Liturgy to be in Ukrainian. 
However, if there are "non-Ukrainians" around, nobody has any issues with English being used.

Additionally, we bend over backwards to the the non-Ukrainian speakers, to ensure they are comfortable.

There are prayer books available in Ukrainian and English, so they can follow along.

This anti-"English" behavior is certainly NOT typical of Ukrainian churches, and I want everyone to know that.

Please, don't let it every stop you from visiting a Ukrainian Church. 





Liza,

I agree with you, this behavior is NOT typical of Ukrainian parishes. Why nothing has been done about it, I don't know. I have been to many different parishes of different ethnicities over the years, and this is the only parish where I have seen this type of behavior exhibited.

You and I both belong to UOC of USA parishes, and neither one of our parishes act like this. Why St. Andrew's does, I will never know. I also don't know if this has been brought to the attention of Vladyka Antony or not. Personally, I don't have the time or resources to be bothered with it. I go to my parish, say my prayers, and go on with life.

May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Maureen
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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 02:40:55 PM »

I must admit I do disagree that there is not a large degree of Ukrainian nationalism at Ukrainian Orthodox Churches. In the Chicagoland area there are 5 Ukrainian Orthodox churches (not counting the 3 small parishes in IN)
UOC-USA St. Volodymyr's Cathedral- very Ukrainian nationalisitic and very anti-mixing English with Ukrainian
UOC-KP St. Andrew's- very Ukrainian nationalistic- no english services
UOC-KP St. Sophia- very Ukrainian nationalistic-no english services
UOC-KP St Mary Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Church- very Ukrainian nationalistic- no english
UOC-USA St. Peter and Paul - very little Ukrainian almost entirely in English

I know the parish of St. Michaels in Hammond, Indiana is a mix of Ukrainian and English but the parish membership is so small 25- 30 families, that the consitory in Bound Brook is looking to sell the parish.

It seems at least in the Chicgoland area, 4 out of 5 parishes are Ukrainian language only. Im curious if that is due to the large influx of recent immigrants from Ukraine or the fact the rest of the parishes are immigrants from post WWII. I believe out on the east coast most of the parisioners are 2nd, 3rd generation decendents of Ukrainian immigrants. I know that the UOCUSA is making a strong effort to expand to non-Ukrainian speakers. Unfortunetly, this is one of the reasons some parishes are leaving and joining Kievan Patriarchate which by bothe the EP and EP controlled UOCUSA is deemed non cannonical. Its sad that language and nationalism has led to a feeling of inferiority/superiority. It shouldnt. The question is asked of parisioners of why their children and grandchildren are not active in church and some say because there is a lack of English. However for 5 years we had an English service before divine liturgy and at most 2-3 people came so the parish decided to cancel it. I wonder if this is just a Chicago phenomenon or is this across the US?
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 02:50:34 PM »

Quote
which by bothe the EP and EP controlled UOCUSA is deemed non cannonical

And by remaining 14 mainstream autocephalous Churches also.
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