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Author Topic: Sacred Heart/Holy Infant Devotion  (Read 2594 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pilgrim
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« on: August 13, 2009, 12:48:29 AM »

How strong is devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus is Orthodoxy? I know that this is a western practice, but is there anything THEOLOGICALLY wrong with it (please respond only if you have a basic understanding of the devotion)? I have the same question about devotion to the Infant Jesus.
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 12:54:24 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9055.0.html

Here is a thread you might be interested in.
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2009, 01:01:18 AM »

Thanks Nebelpfade. Whats the new avatar mean, btw?
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2009, 01:16:34 AM »

I do remember seeing, over ten years ago, an Antiochian Orthodox mission in Oklahoma that had an altar flanked with statues of the sacred heart of Mary on one side and of the sacred heart of Jesus on the other. It did not last long after certain questions about the Orthodoxy of such things arose. I guess there was a good repentance there. I always found the idea of worshipping a divine organ to be problematical at best, but maybe I missed something along the way. I will look into what others might have said. About the Infant Christ, I remember that in some iconography schools teach that in an icon of Christ as an infant that His face is to be shown more maturely than an infant, to reveal that He was totally aware even as an infant.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2009, 01:21:21 AM »

About the Infant Christ, I remember that in some iconography schools teach that in an icon of Christ as an infant that His face is to be shown more maturely than an infant, to reveal that He was totally aware even as an infant.

That is an interesting subject.  Did the God-man undergo only physical development, but not psychological/cerebral development?  As an infant, are we to understand that He had a fully functioning adult mind?  This does seem strange, especially in the light of developmental psychology, but then again God becoming a human, resurrection of the dead, walking on water and the like don't 'make sense' either.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2009, 01:32:42 AM »

Thanks Nebelpfade. Whats the new avatar mean, btw?

It is the symbol for universal quantification.  It means "For all...", "For every...", "For an arbitrary value of...", etc.  You find it a lot in propositional logic.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2009, 02:17:21 AM »

Thanks Nebelpfade. Whats the new avatar mean, btw?

It is the symbol for universal quantification.  It means "For all...", "For every...", "For an arbitrary value of...", etc.  You find it a lot in propositional logic.

Looks pretty masonic to me... Wink
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2009, 02:19:43 AM »

Looks pretty masonic to me... Wink

You know too much... lol.  Math is a masonic plot.
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 02:26:50 AM »

Looks pretty masonic to me... Wink

You know too much... lol.  Math is a masonic plot.

I'm brain damaged from too much symbolic logic...
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 02:34:55 AM »

*pulling the thread back on topic*

Neither the Sacred Heart of Jesus, nor the Immaculate Heart of Mary, nor the devotion to the infant Jesus have ever had any part of Orthodox liturgical, doctrinal or devotional tradition. Such devotions are entirely from post-schism Roman Catholic tradition.
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 11:19:08 AM »

I agree, LBK. I'm hard-pressed to understand a few recent threads in which Orthodox posters are seeking to adopt Roman Catholic icons and devotions when (as I posted elsewhere) our own Orthodox tradition is so rich and so beautiful. I find it very strange indeed.
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 01:43:11 PM »

Thanks Nebelpfade. Whats the new avatar mean, btw?

It is the symbol for universal quantification.  It means "For all...", "For every...", "For an arbitrary value of...", etc.  You find it a lot in propositional logic.

In Poland we use the other symbol of it, which looks like "V" upside down.
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 05:06:27 PM »

I do remember seeing, over ten years ago, an Antiochian Orthodox mission in Oklahoma that had an altar flanked with statues of the sacred heart of Mary on one side and of the sacred heart of Jesus on the other. It did not last long after certain questions about the Orthodoxy of such things arose. I guess there was a good repentance there. I always found the idea of worshipping a divine organ to be problematical at best, but maybe I missed something along the way. I will look into what others might have said. About the Infant Christ, I remember that in some iconography schools teach that in an icon of Christ as an infant that His face is to be shown more maturely than an infant, to reveal that He was totally aware even as an infant.

Forgive, brother John


Well, they aren't worshiping  a "Divine Organ", they are worshipping...how should I put it...the hypostasis of Christ with emphasis on His Love for humanity. With Mary's Heart, they are venerating her love for her Son, for the Father and Holy Spirit, and for all Christians.
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 05:13:21 PM »


I agree, LBK. I'm hard-pressed to understand a few recent threads in which Orthodox posters are seeking to adopt Roman Catholic icons and devotions when (as I posted elsewhere) our own Orthodox tradition is so rich and so beautiful. I find it very strange indeed.

I agree completely.

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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 05:49:50 PM »

As a former Roman Catholic (and very active at that..former seminarian) I have never understood the devotion to the "Sacred Heart".  As Christians, we worship the Divine God-head as they are.  Theologically, I can't see how it would make sense to worship a certain part of Christ's body.  Logically, it doesn't make any sense either.
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2009, 08:44:55 PM »

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 11:24:22 PM »

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious
You can't be serious, can you?  Do you really think that badly of the Roman Catholic Church? Huh
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 11:46:00 PM »

In the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook which is an Orthodox western rite prayerbook there is a section in it devoted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. The prayerbook basically says that it knows this devotion is post-schism, but they say that the heart is symbolic of the compassion and love of Jesus Christ and that they don't devote themselves to the actual physical heart of Jesus.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2009, 03:20:06 PM »

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious

Apparently you are not aware of the Holy Præputium?

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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 03:58:15 PM »

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious
You can't be serious, can you?  Do you really think that badly of the Roman Catholic Church? Huh

At one point there were over a dozen churches of the holy foreskin in Italy, each claiming to have it...
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2009, 08:27:04 PM »

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious
You can't be serious, can you?  Do you really think that badly of the Roman Catholic Church? Huh

At one point there were over a dozen churches of the holy foreskin in Italy, each claiming to have it...

The Roman Catholic doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena, had a "mystical marriage" to Christ and His foreskin served as the wedding ring- which only she could see on her finger.
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2009, 09:28:26 PM »

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious
You can't be serious, can you?  Do you really think that badly of the Roman Catholic Church? Huh

At one point there were over a dozen churches of the holy foreskin in Italy, each claiming to have it...

The Roman Catholic doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena, had a "mystical marriage" to Christ and His foreskin served as the wedding ring- which only she could see on her finger.

i knew it! there chasing after odd apparitions God Help us all....
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2009, 10:06:17 PM »

It's too bad someone can't just ask the forum a question without having the anti-RC insults flung! Really?? Come on.
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2009, 10:09:10 PM »

It's too bad someone can't just ask the forum a question without having the anti-RC insults flung! Really?? Come on.
What anti-RC insults? Can you quote them please?
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2009, 10:21:00 PM »

How about the one about garage sale? or the foreskin devotion? that's just the thing, people don't think this stuff is totally insulting.  I honestly don't feel like taking this discussion any further, thanks.
I just feel sad and turned off more often than not after logging into this forum. It so often devolves into things that are totally disrespectful and arrogant.
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2009, 10:27:08 PM »

How about the one about garage sale?
LisaSymonenko's point is that Orthodoxy contains the fullness of Truth while other confessions do not. That's not an insult, it is a statement of the ecclesiastical position of the Orthodox Church.

or the foreskin devotion?
But the foreskin devotion actually existed- and in Italy was practised right up until 1983: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcata#Holy_Prepuce_of_Calcata
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2009, 10:16:56 AM »

No problem do I have w/ religion making truth claims! However, I also don't think, for ex, Archbishop Demetrios (IMO one of the finest leaders we have), would call someone else's religious tradition a 'garage sale'. That's all I'm saying. Speaking to someone else in respectful terms isn't going to make a person somehow be 'less' Orthodox. There is a humane and civil way to say a thing without putting it across in a way that belittles the other person who only came here to ask a question. They are seeking God no less than anyone else who hangs out here and I think a lot of people on these forums might do well to remember that. For that matter, people in the world at large.
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2009, 04:02:10 PM »

No problem do I have w/ religion making truth claims! However, I also don't think, for ex, Archbishop Demetrios (IMO one of the finest leaders we have), would call someone else's religious tradition a 'garage sale'. That's all I'm saying. Speaking to someone else in respectful terms isn't going to make a person somehow be 'less' Orthodox. There is a humane and civil way to say a thing without putting it across in a way that belittles the other person who only came here to ask a question. They are seeking God no less than anyone else who hangs out here and I think a lot of people on these forums might do well to remember that. For that matter, people in the world at large.

I sense that you're not talking so much about a general trend among a number of posters on this thread as you are about one particular post.

Please No slicing Up our Blessed Lord and Blessed Mother or extracting their hearts and worshiping and venerating  them ....

Wasn't Our Lord Circumcised,,whats next on the agenda for the catholic roman catholic church a devotion to the Holy forskin . ,.....curious

If I'm correct, why don't you just address the specific post you think particularly rude and belittling? Wink  When you make general comments about the behavior of unnamed persons in the hope that the specific target of your complaint will get the hint, the communication usually doesn't translate well--you'll most often end up with a lot of people wondering if your complaint applies to them, some even taking your complaint personally and getting needlessly offended.
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 06:27:03 PM »

Not meaning to drag up an old thread, but I have read most of what has been written on the forum regarding the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" in Catholic devotion, and what I have not seen brought up is the whole issue of the purported visions involving it.  This is from Wikipedia:


 "On December 27, probably 1673, the feast of St. John, Margaret Mary reported that Jesus permitted her, as He had formerly allowed St. Gertrude, to rest her head upon His Heart, and then disclosed to her the wonders of His love, telling her that He desired to make them known to all mankind and to diffuse the treasures of His goodness, and that He had chosen her for this work."
   
 "In probably June or July, 1674, Margaret Mary claimed that Jesus requested to be honored under the figure of His Heart of flesh, also claiming that, when He appeared radiant with love, He asked for a devotion of expiatory love: frequent reception of Communion, especially Communion on the First Friday of the month, and the observance of the Holy Hour."
   
"During the octave of Corpus Christi, 1675, probably on June 16, the vision known as the "great apparition" reportedly took place, where Jesus said, "Behold the Heart that has so loved men ... instead of gratitude I receive from the greater part (of mankind) only ingratitude ...", and asked Margaret Mary for a feast of reparation of the Friday after the octave of Corpus Christi, bidding her consult her confessor Father Claude de la Colombière, then superior of the small Jesuit house at Paray. Solemn homage was asked on the part of the king, and the mission of propagating the new devotion was especially confided to the religious of the Visitation and to the priests of the Society of Jesus."

Regardless of the apologists defending the devotion by claiming that it represents Christ's Divine love, as an Orthodox Christian I cannot, and do not, accept the validity of these visions, anymore than I accept the countless other visions that Catholics have claimed to support questionable devotions.

I do not believe our Lord appeared to this Nun and spoke these things.

In Christ

Peter
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« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »

Regardless of the apologists defending the devotion by claiming that it represents Christ's Divine love, as an Orthodox Christian I cannot, and do not, accept the validity of these visions, anymore than I accept the countless other visions that Catholics have claimed to support questionable devotions.

I do not believe our Lord appeared to this Nun and spoke these things.

In Christ

Peter

Agreed.

My family, a few generations before me, was Roman Catholic. To this day, I have one of my great-grandmothers crucifixes (it's in my icon corner) and so I feel an historical connection to the Roman Catholic faith and appreciate a lot of its devotion. It can be very beautiful.

However, being devoted to the "love" or "compassion" of our Lord or the Theotokos and calling it a devotion to their "heart" is just...foreign to Holy Tradition. I've never understood it.

And then one must figure in the growing tradition of "apparitions" in Roman devotion. All of the Marian apparitions, then the apparitions of Christ as mentioned above.

Then we have to speak of St. Catherine of Siena, also mentioned above, and her "mystical marriage"...complete with mystical foreskin wedding ring. There's also a tradition of female saints having this odd type of devotion to Christ has a husband that can be quite...sensual. I find them unOrthodox at the very least, and usually very problematic, irreverent, disturbing and...well, let's just leave it at "disturbing."

I have a love for the Roman Church, I do. I have a familial connection to it. I have friends who are devout Roman Catholics. That said, it has been (among other things) devotions like these which made me reject ever becoming a Roman Catholic. I simply cannot accept such odd devotions and apparitions as works of Christ.
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 03:54:34 PM »

The Roman Catholic doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Siena, had a "mystical marriage" to Christ and His foreskin served as the wedding ring- which only she could see on her finger.

Thanks for bumping this thread. lulz oz.

I know more than few married men who often wear a wedding ring only they can see.
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 04:01:31 PM »

About the Infant Christ, I remember that in some iconography schools teach that in an icon of Christ as an infant that His face is to be shown more maturely than an infant, to reveal that He was totally aware even as an infant.

That is an interesting subject.  Did the God-man undergo only physical development, but not psychological/cerebral development?  As an infant, are we to understand that He had a fully functioning adult mind?  This does seem strange, especially in the light of developmental psychology, but then again God becoming a human, resurrection of the dead, walking on water and the like don't 'make sense' either.

"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."
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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 04:15:38 PM »

I agree with you Benjamin, I have many Catholic friends, including my girlfriend.  I know they are sincere and devout, but I can't accept these teachings of the Catholic Church.  I feel that since the schism, the RCC has opened itself to evil influences such as these.

The whole reparations thing is very troubling.  This is quoted from an article about the subject:

"In his encyclical Miserentissimus Redemptor Pope Pius XI defined reparation as follows:

    The creature's love should be given in return for the love of the Creator, another thing follows from this at once, namely that to the same uncreated Love, if so be it has been neglected by forgetfulness or violated by offense, some sort of compensation must be rendered for the injury, and this debt is commonly called by the name of reparation."

A juridical and legalistic approach to God the Father.

"The Golden Arrow Holy Face Devotion is a prayer in the Roman Catholic Church which is believed to have been dictated by Jesus to Sr. Marie of St Peter and of the Holy Family, a Carmelite nun of Tours, in 1843. It is an Act of Praise and Reparation for Blasphemy. It is also a reparation for the profanation of Sunday and the Holy Days of Obligation."

On March 16, 1844 Jesus reportedly told Sr. Marie:

"Oh if you only knew what great merit you acquire by saying even once, Admirable is the Name of God , in a spirit of reparation for blasphemy."

"He (Christ) told her that the two sins which offend Him the most grievously are blasphemy and the profanation of Sunday. Our Lord called this prayer the "Golden Arrow", saying that those who would recite it would pierce Him delightfully, and also heal those other wounds inflicted on Him by the malice of sinners. Sr. Mary of St. Peter saw, "streaming from the Sacred Heart of Jesus, delightfully wounded by this 'Golden Arrow,' torrents of graces for the conversion of sinners."

Another example of these sorts of visions, that are absent from the Holy Orthodox Church.  I have great trouble accepting these as being representative of Christianity in any form.  It all gets back to the legalistic ideas surrounding merits.  The whole "Treasury of Merits" teaching is foreign to Orthodoxy:

"Around 1230, the Dominican Hugh of St-Cher proposed the idea of a Treasure House of Merit (thesaurum satisfactionum Christi et Sanctorum) at the Church's disposal, consisting of the infinite merits of Christ and the immeasurable abundance of the saints' merits, a thesis that was demonstrated by scholastics such as Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquinas and remains the basis for the theological explanation of indulgences."

"The Church had possession of these extra merits and could, in the Church's teaching, grant these in the form of indulgences"

Those that think the only issues preventing reunion between the RCC and the Orthodox Church are those of Papal supremacy and the filioque, are sadly mistaken. Our respective theologies are fundamentally different.  There are many teachings of the RCC that are of a dogmatic nature that the Orthodox can never accept.
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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 04:16:47 PM »

Why dissect Jesus or confine Him to a particular age?  Huh
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peteprint
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 04:23:10 PM »

Exactly, such as the Infant of Atocha:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Ni%C3%B1o_de_Atocha

With all the purported visitations and messages of the Lord and the Theotokos to the RCC over the last couple of centuries, too numerous to name,  I can only reach the conclusions that either:

1.  The RCC is the true Church

2.  That these appearances are either fraudulent, or demonic in origin.

As an Orthodox Christian I have to accept the second conclusion.

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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 04:53:38 PM »

Other non-supernatural explanations would involve such things as starvation-induced visions and such (combined with imagination in prayer). Not necessarily fraudulent but not necessariliy supernatural either.

Some of these devotions may have started life as pious legends that then took on a life of their own after the fact through popular devotion (eg. Guadaloupe/Juan Diego).

 (I would classify Medjugorgje however as an out-and-out fraud, among other things).
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 05:07:36 PM »

Hello John,

Yes, those could play a part as well.  Regarding Medjugorje, from what I have read, apparently many in the RCC hierarchy believe it is fraudulent as well.  This raises the question for me, why doesn't the Church condemn it?

I know that some apologists would state that many of these controversial statements from visions are not required to be believed by Catholics; it makes no sense to me then that the Church takes such a position (really no position), which I feel tacitly gives a stamp of approval to such things.

 

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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 05:08:24 PM »

Hello John,

Yes, those could play a part as well.  Regarding Medjugorje, from what I have read, apparently many in the RCC hierarchy believe it is fraudulent as well.  This raises the question for me, why doesn't the Church condemn it?

 

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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 06:06:06 PM »

This Apparition In Medjugorije was going on now for 25 to 30 yrs. more or less ,and it's a great money maker for the Vatican and Catholic Church In Bosnia...

The dispute between the Franciscan Order that controlled the place and the Local Bishop ,in reallity was in who controlled the purse,money flowing in ,since the Bishop couldn't get his mitts on controlling the Purse at that time ,he condemed it as Satanic delliusion.....Pope sort of condemed it but not very loudly ,doesn't want to upset the money cart and his cut flowing in..... Grin

Not far from Medjugorije is where many Serbs,Gypsies,and others where massacred, it could be jesenovac the croatian Franciscan Catholic Ustasha Death Camp.....

But for sure, Many Many Innocent serbs and others perished at hands of the croatian franciscan catholic ustasha in the vicinity of Medjugorije ...... police



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