Author Topic: The Holy Body in EO liturgies  (Read 1702 times)

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Offline CopticDeacon

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The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« on: July 25, 2014, 01:41:45 PM »
Can someone tell me the location of the Body during each part of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom,  when the bread becomes the Body,  when and how the priest cuts it?  It looks like it is cut with a knife into a cube.  Why a know and not with hands?  Why a square? Is all of it consumed or only the cube? Please explain all answers.  Tell me anything that you think I don't know. Thanks guys
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Offline Ekdikos

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 01:45:58 PM »
Can someone tell me the location of the Body during each part of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom,  when the bread becomes the Body,  when and how the priest cuts it?  It looks like it is cut with a knife into a cube.  Why a know and not with hands?  Why a square? Is all of it consumed or only the cube? Please explain all answers.  Tell me anything that you think I don't know. Thanks guys

You could find detailed explaination here:

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgy_notes.pdf


Hm, this links are better, since there is detailed explaination, how to cut Proshpora, what to use to commune laity, what to commune people and other:

http://www.saintjonah.org/services/sluzhebniks.htm
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 01:59:38 PM by Ekdikos »

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 02:18:23 PM »
Also, seems I did not read your question in whole.
At which part of Liturgy, bread becomes Body? Classical defintion would be it is moment of epiclesis:

Ie when priest is pronouncing Prayer:

"O Lord, Who didst send down Thy Most-holy Spirit at the third hour upon Thine apostles: Take Him not from us, O Good One, but renew Him in us who pray unto Thee.
.....
And make this Bread  the precious Body of Thy Christ.
.....
And that which is in this Cup the precious Blood of Thy Christ.
....
Changing them by Thy Holy Spirit.


Altough many theologians, point that in Patristic literature, bread becomes Body of Christ since begining of Liturgy, or even from Proskomedia.

I dont know, why exactly we use spear (knife), and why Lamb is of trapesoid phorm...

Offline Antonis

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 02:23:54 PM »
Isn't the spear reminiscient of the lance that pierced Christ's side? An instrument of the sacrifice?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 02:25:23 PM »
I asked my priest once when the bread becomes the Body. He just shrugged and told me it was a mystery. I think common belief is when the faithful say "Amen" after the priest prays the prayer requesting God change it into the Body and Blood of Christ.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 02:28:25 PM »
Yes, I was told the formal moment was after the triple amen following the epiclesis, but, that, in typical Orthodox fashion, the actual change could be said to begin at the anaphora and not complete until the end of the epiclesis.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:29:11 PM by Antonis »
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 02:30:00 PM »
Isn't the spear reminiscient of the lance that pierced Christ's side? An instrument of the sacrifice?

Yes, of course. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Offline CopticDeacon

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 02:33:29 PM »
Isn't the spear reminiscient of the lance that pierced Christ's side? An instrument of the sacrifice?

Yes, of course. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Very nice!  After the epiclesis, it definitely is the body and blood but it might have been transformed before that point.  That's what we believe.  That's Vatican the sane thing.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 02:35:59 PM »
Isn't the spear reminiscient of the lance that pierced Christ's side? An instrument of the sacrifice?

Yes, of course. Thanks for reminding me. :)
No problem!
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Arachne

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 03:23:47 PM »
From RE classes back in school I remember that the moment of consecration is considered to be when the priest says 'Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all.'
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Offline Antonis

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 03:28:58 PM »
From RE classes back in school I remember that the moment of consecration is considered to be when the priest says 'Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all.'
In this case, why would the priest ask the Holy Spirit to descend to change the bread and wine into the body and blood during the epiclesis?
"Verily they that seek Thee, Lord, and keep the canons of Thy Holy Church shall never want any good thing.”
St. John the Merciful

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Arachne

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2014, 03:53:05 PM »
From RE classes back in school I remember that the moment of consecration is considered to be when the priest says 'Thine own of Thine own we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all.'
In this case, why would the priest ask the Holy Spirit to descend to change the bread and wine into the body and blood during the epiclesis?

Take it up with those who wrote the textbooks. :) At the end of the day, pinpointing it doesn't matter. In common practice, people bow/kneel or, if they use a stasidion, step off it, between 'This is my Body' and the Axion Estin, in respect of the descent.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 03:53:26 PM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 04:05:28 PM »
At the end of the day, regardless of when during the liturgy the Priest drops the Mysteries on the ground, he is going to be bent over eating every last crumb off the floor.  ;)
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 04:20:30 PM »
1. In a sense the transformation is a process.  That's not to say that it's going on for the whole morning (since the Liturgy clearly doesn't begin praying for the gifts until after the readings from scripture), but we do increase the fervor of our prayer until the Epiklesis (invocation) in the Anaphora (offeratory prayer).  After the Epiklesis, it's fully considered the Body (and the chalice contents are considered The Blood) of Christ. 

2. In a sense the transformation happens at the Epiklesis of the Anaphora.  We don't believe in useless prayer, and we don't believe in vain speech in the Liturgy (bad homilies notwithstanding).  The Epiklesis has a specific purpose and scope.  Once the Epiklesis of the Anaphora is done, the purpose has been served, and the bread and wine are the body and blood.  Before the Anaphora, they're not (and you can see this in the different ways that the Great Entrance is conducted in a Divine Liturgy versus a Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, or in Ordinations, where the hierarch sits in front of the table for the Priest's ordination, but not for the Deacon's).

3. The "cube" of the Lamb is performed at the Service of Preparation, traditionally completed before the Divine Liturgy (although technically it doesn't need to be finished until the Great Entrance), when the priest takes the offered bread (Prosfora in Greek), cuts out the "Lamb" (sealed with a Cross and the letters IC XC NI KA in the four corners), and then places smaller pieces remembering the Mother of God, the orders of the Saints, the Hierarch of the Church, and then those living and deceased that he has been asked to pray for.  He then places a small piece remembering himself, and completes the service by covering the gifts.  The pieces are arrayed about the Lamb as an image of the Kingdom - the Mother of God and the Saints by the side of the Lord, and the people at his feet, awaiting his merciful judgment.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2014, 04:45:01 PM »
...or in Ordinations, where the hierarch sits in front of the table for the Priest's ordination, but not for the Deacon's.

Interesting.  I never saw this distinction at SVS: AFAIK, the bishop was always seated at the NW corner of the table. 

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: The Holy Body in EO liturgies
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 02:21:19 AM »
...or in Ordinations, where the hierarch sits in front of the table for the Priest's ordination, but not for the Deacon's.

Interesting.  I never saw this distinction at SVS: AFAIK, the bishop was always seated at the NW corner of the table. 

NW? What you wanted to say? When bishop isserving Liturgy, he is either on west of Altar table, or on upper place where his thronos should be (on East). Of, course bishop begins Liturgy in Nave of Church. I am speaking about EO practice, ofc.

Edit: Nevermind, I think you tought about moment when bishop is ordianing deacon or priest, he is on Northwestern Corner of table an reads prayers for ordination. Tought at warious moments of Liturgy, he saets in nave of Church, or at Eastern side.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 02:43:52 AM by Ekdikos »